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law_girl428
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 02:02 pm |
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Pete Macinta wrote: Well, either way, since the topic of the thread is "same sex marriage," the Bible indicates marriage is to be between male and female.
God bless,
Pete
Okay, so what if you are created by God as being both, male and female? I don't think it is possible to be a sinner in the womb, is it? I understand we are all born sinners, however, is there reference that you can sin before your actually "born"? Do you think God creates and gives the gift of life to some as punishment for their Sin?
I believe that "marriage" can occur between two people with or without a formal ceremony. I also believe that love is the greatest gift of life and the one thing that God intends or wishes every being to pursue...true, natural, full love, that most never understand. The concept of "same sex marriage" doesn't have to include physical SEX. That the point where I think many get misguided. There are marriages that include the absence of physical sex...these people are bound by love and not physical gratification. It happens in all walks of life to all different types of people, be it a man and a woman or a woman and a woman. Marriage doesn't have to include sex. Marriage is a bond of two people, not a license or a right to have sex, IMO.
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pooh_b_21632
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 01:59 pm |
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Deciding why a person is a homosexual is at the heart of SAME SEX MARRIAGES considering you must be homosexual to be in a SAME SEX MARRIAGE. Just becuase the bible says that marriage is to be between a man and a woman does not mean that the goenment will not allow SAME SEX MARRIAGES.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 01:44 pm |
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Well, either way, since the topic of the thread is "same sex marriage," the Bible indicates marriage is to be between male and female.
God bless,
Pete
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pooh_b_21632
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 01:35 pm |
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law_girl428 wrote:Here's a question to stir the pot....rather intriguing, but supports the notion of science being directly related to sexual orientation: What happens when an individual is born with both male and female genitalia? Who should they lie with, man or woman? If a corrective operation ensues, and it ends up being the wrong one for their eventual orientation, are they a sinner because they choose (biologically speaking) the opposite sex? These questions give rise and support to my notion that there is a relationship between both the creation of all by God and science. Also, what of the species that are created as hermaphrodite and/or one gender?
Thats a good question. I have seen medical evidence on this where doctors urge the parents to choose and do the sex operation as soon as the child starts developing a personality so that the child can be raised either as a girl or a boy, depending on which the parents feel the child should be. other doctors recommend letting the child choose when they get older because they would know what their orientation should be, but they also discourage the parents from refering to the child as my son or my daughter rather just my child and buy gender neutral items and colors until the child has choosen. So there you come to a moral dillema do you choose your childs sex and risk alinating them when they grow up and discover you chose the wrong sex or do you call them my child and create a distance between between you and your child.
Also, some of the children born with both male and female parts only have one functioning set, meaning while they may have both superficial parts they may only have ovaries or only testes in which case the parents choice is a little easier. I also agree this is a good argument for why people are born gay.
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law_girl428
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 01:30 pm |
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Pete Macinta wrote: Greetings Law,
You asked ...
Here's a question to stir the pot....rather intriguing, but supports the notion of science being directly related to sexual orientation: What happens when an individual is born with both male and female genitalia? Who should they lie with, man or woman? We once had a neighbor liked that. Apparently she talked to God about it and chose neither.
Not too sure, can an operation physically correct that situation?
God bless,
Pete
Yes Pete --- there have been those born transgendered and physicians and/or parents chose corrective surgery to give their child a "normal" life. It can be done the same way someone has sex change surgeries. I once did a college paper on the subject, which also included research into those who feel their bodies are made wrong, however, they are NOT gay. That is to say, while a man who is born a man, albeit, he may have feminine characteristics such as larger breasts then other men, less facial hair, etc. these individuals are documented to have gone the majority of their lives feeling that his body is wrong and chooses surgery to become a woman physically, but still desires a woman sexually as opposed to a man.
These are reasons I support the notion of God intertwined with science and that while some choose to live in sin...it's not always derived from sin. I know how you feel...and that's fine. I simply feel differently and don't think that because I feel this way, anyone should have a right to question my relationship with God.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 01:19 pm |
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Greetings Law,
You asked ...
Here's a question to stir the pot....rather intriguing, but supports the notion of science being directly related to sexual orientation: What happens when an individual is born with both male and female genitalia? Who should they lie with, man or woman? We once had a neighbor liked that. Apparently she talked to God about it and chose neither.
Not too sure, can an operation physically correct that situation?
God bless,
Pete
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law_girl428
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 01:16 pm |
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pooh_b_21632 wrote: Honestly Scrapple I agree, I think people are born gay. However, others do not feel the same way and I would like to entertain the notions of others with an open mind. There is a fuzzy line between those that are religous minded and those that are science minded and there is no clear cut answer to who is right and who is wrong.
Pooh...
I couldn't agree more with this statement. I also believe that people are born gay, just as people are born blind, deaf, ill, etc. I also believe there can be a mixture of both religion (God) and science (biology, DNA, hormones) in the creation of all. I think they (science and religion) inevitably intertwine with one another and that you simply can't ignore either. Albeit, some would rather choose to turn a blind eye to one or the other if it fits their agenda and/or personal preference.
I also noted the questions and/or statements about animals. It is true that the same that occurs with man (a mammal, animal) occurs with varieties of species of animal (dog, cat, etc.)
Here's a question to stir the pot....rather intriguing, but supports the notion of science being directly related to sexual orientation: What happens when an individual is born with both male and female genitalia? Who should they lie with, man or woman? If a corrective operation ensues, and it ends up being the wrong one for their eventual orientation, are they a sinner because they choose (biologically speaking) the opposite sex? These questions give rise and support to my notion that there is a relationship between both the creation of all by God and science. Also, what of the species that are created as hermaphrodite and/or one gender?
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 12:48 pm |
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Greetings scrapple,
You wrote...
The notion of society "making people gay" is patently absurd. I know that it might to some. While I maintain that the Bible indicates it is a choice (Romans 1), I would say society, or as many churches put it, "the world" (which is a Biblical term) has influence.
Each one of us from the time we are born have three problems to face: The influence of our sin nature, the influence of the world, and satan.
While one is influenced, it boils down that a person needs to make a choice.
While the Holy Spirit does convict, bring light to, every person...
Johnn 1:9 That was the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
it is up to each person to accept, commit to, that Light
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to those who believe in His name,
God bless,
Pete
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pooh_b_21632
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 12:45 pm |
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Honestly Scrapple I agree, I think people are born gay. However, others do not feel the same way and I would like to entertain the notions of others with an open mind. There is a fuzzy line between those that are religous minded and those that are science minded and there is no clear cut answer to who is right and who is wrong.
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scrapple
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 12:39 pm |
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The notion of society "making people gay" is patently absurd.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 11:49 am |
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TF wrote...
But Jesus covered the heart... He loved and opened His heart to ALL,
TF you are right, but He told people to sin no more. More than that, He is the Cure for sin.
as the Church should. The Church is a Beacon! Well, the Church is not the cure, but it is a beacon.
With that, as noted above, we invite all to come to Christ. When they truly do, sin is removed.
God bless,Pete
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thinkfirst
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 11:45 am |
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Actually, there is a LOT of scientific evidence that homosexuality is determined before birth, and there is a lot of research happening now.
In ancient times the Romans had no concern about who or what people had sex with... animals, children, men OR women. There was a LOT of partying going on and a lot of evil stuff that wasn't about preference, but about indulging oneself. The 10 commandments covers all the rules. But Jesus covered the heart... He loved and opened His heart to ALL, as the Church should. The Church is a Beacon!
And might I ask about HAPPILY MARRIED couples that commit sodomy?? Don't ask, don't tell?
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pooh_b_21632
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 11:36 am |
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4Godncountry wrote: Lawgirl428,
Some people are asexual, meaning that they have some feminine tendencies( if male), this does not make them Gay. It is Society and our adversary, Satan, that turns them to Homosexuality! I have a nephew who has some feminine tendencies. He is Not Gay! he just enjoys somethings that Society has branded for Gay people. Society can push someone to being something they are not! But again no one is Born Homosexual it is just against God's natural law. I think pete posted scripture elsewher in this thread that explains all of this.
What happens if our evil "society" turns your nephew homosexual? will you turn him away unless he accepts Jesus Christ as his lord and savior and abstains from homosexuality? or Will you love him as a whole...........
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4Godncountry
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 04:58 am |
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Lawgirl428,
Some people are asexual, meaning that they have some feminine tendencies( if male), this does not make them Gay. It is Society and our adversary, Satan, that turns them to Homosexuality! I have a nephew who has some feminine tendencies. He is Not Gay! he just enjoys somethings that Society has branded for Gay people. Society can push someone to being something they are not! But again no one is Born Homosexual it is just against God's natural law. I think pete posted scripture elsewher in this thread that explains all of this.
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JJBM
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 08:42 pm |
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scrapple wrote:
Just because you didn't hear about things like this doesn't mean they don't occur:
i guess thats the best thing you have said yet
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JJBM
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 08:41 pm |
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| lol, its hard to believe the differences in opinions. but at the end of the day either u believe in what God tells us or you dont. God be with those who don't. I've had toooo much proof He is everywhere.
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scrapple
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 08:39 pm |
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JJBM wrote:i just have to wonder that if ppl were born homosexual then why arent animals? we have the same tendencies when it comes to taking care of our young, providing shelter, food, both animals and ppl love a mate. but i dont see any homosexual animals... and scientifically speaking (i believe God created man; fyi) if we came from apes as some believe, i dont recall hearing of a homosexual ape either. just seems unethical.
Just because you didn't hear about things like this doesn't mean they don't occur:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
This was just one quick Google search. Look up the bonobo, the chimpanzee cousin, and you will see a species that uses sex -- hetero- and homosexual -- for many purposes other than reproduction.
Some animals hardly "love a mate" or "provide shelter, food" for their young. Praying mantises and many species of spiders kill and/or devour the male after mating; turtles, for instance, lay their eggs and then depart, never to return, leaving most to be eaten; and male lions who have recently gained status routinely kill offspring of rival males so as to reseed his harem with his own genes.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 08:32 pm |
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We can't look at the animals either though, because, afterall, the Word says sin entered the world and even affected creation.
God bless,
Pete
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pooh_b_21632
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 08:30 pm |
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I would have to disagree that there are no homosexual animals. I know that I am not the only one that has seen two male dogs trying to get it on. And according to Wikipedia there are quite a few animals that display homosexual behavior (see link)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
also, the national geographic says its true too. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
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JJBM
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 08:22 pm |
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law_girl428 wrote: Where's the proof or evidence in the word of Lord that proves people are NOT born homosexual?
i just have to wonder that if ppl were born homosexual then why arent animals? we have the same tendencies when it comes to taking care of our young, providing shelter, food, both animals and ppl love a mate. but i dont see any homosexual animals... and scientifically speaking (i believe God created man; fyi) if we came from apes as some believe, i dont recall hearing of a homosexual ape either. just seems unethical.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 07:30 pm |
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As 4Godncountry wrote...
It really doesn't matter if you disagree, it does not change the truth of God's Word. This is what we will be judged by. For me, I want to err on the side of caution and heed God's word. If your wrong, it is an eternal mistake. If I am wrong I haven't lost anything! God bless,
Pete
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webmaster
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 07:23 pm |
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 03:08 pm |
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scrapple wrote...
Ah, if only there were separation of church and Internet... Just kidding, Pete. Np scrapple! Frankly, that put a smile on my face! lol!
Pretty good.
God bless,
Pete
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scrapple
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 03:06 pm |
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Ah, if only there were separation of church and Internet...
Just kidding, Pete.
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law_girl428
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 01:41 pm |
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Well, Pete, there are many beliefs in this world. Some holy, some scientific. You have said that there is no scientific evidence that people are born with homosexual tendencies. I beg to differ. Where's the proof or evidence in the word of Lord that proves people are NOT born homosexual?
I have a problem with your approach and judging people so harshly, I guess. I know a family who had a son and it was obvious early on that he was not heterosexual. Try as they may, there was no therapy or treatments that were going to change the orientation of their 3 year old son. For years they tried to make him something/someone he was not. At 16 he committed suicide. He was a friend of mine and often shared his feelings with me. He had never had sex, but was always filled with thoughts that his body was wrong for the way he felt. He preferred dolls to g.i. Joe, he preferred ballet to wrestling. He never engaged in "sex" with anyone. I imagine, had it not been for people telling him all his life that to be gay was to sin, had he been LOVED by others (just as the Bible teaches) then I guess, he would probably still be here today.
The problem with what you preach is that it puts amazing pressure on those who have been dealt a hand for which you can not understand. The same things you preach are the same things which drove my friend to take his own life. His orientation was, as you would call it, sin. Yet...you sin by judging him.
We could debate it all day long. I believe in God, I have read the Bible. I also believe that many MEN have interpreted the Bible to mean what they would have it mean to justify their own hate and fears. I believe that many who teach the good word are at the top of the list in sin, as well...and yes, I am passing judgment, but I don't hold myself out to the world and society as knowing all of what God intended. There is only one who can judge man....and their sin.
I'm sorry Pete, maybe I will go to hell for my views, but perhaps you may as well. There are people who have died because of their orientation. I simply can't believe that being born homosexual is a sin. My friend was pressured by his family minister who shared similar views, such as yourself, which is what drove him to feel so "wrong" in his own body and for having feelings that he could not explain. He was put into several types of therapy, which was supposed to make him "straight". It didn't work, obviously. What of the many women who don't have sex with their husbands because "chemically" they don't desire sex. I guess she is a sinner because her purpose is to play slave to man and be a sexual object. There is indeed scientific evidence that chemistry, biology and genes play a role in many things, such as sexual orientation, libido, etc.
Is it not a sin to pretend to be something your not? Isn't vanity a sin? To forsake what God gave you from birth to please others is sin. It's vain. So, I guess if you are born with homosexual tendencies, you ought to just kill yourself early on because your damned if you do and damned if you don't.
The funny thing is that woman was created by "man" since this is true, I guess Adam is partially gay, right? Essentially he was having sex with himself...man on man. How ironic!!!!
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 12:34 am |
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TF wrote...
Pete's saying it's wrong to practice it, just as adultery is wrong to commit. And Pete is also saying it's wrong to be homosexual, and just as much as it is wrong to have a desire to steal, lust, and etc. It is not God's perfect plan and, without Christ, we miss the mark and we are sinners.
Now, here is the Word of God in regard to how one becomes a homosexual and you will see (well, at least I hope you. I pray that you do) that God clearly says it is a choice.
This is a long passage from Romans 1, but it gives you the process, and most importantly the first 2 verses listed show us all the cure, which is the life of Christ itself, if we truly commit to Him.
16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written: "The just shall live by faith."
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,
19 ¶ because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them.
20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
21 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves.
25 They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity. They are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, spiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affections, implacable, unmerciful.
32 And knowing the judgment of God, that those who commit such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but have pleasure in those who do them.
Amen!
May all who read this thread come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ Whose most holy Word is true and remains established forever.
Whoops! just saw this from scrapple which i overlooked;
Deuteronomy, Chapter 13 also said we should kill, with our own hands, any "brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend" who serves other gods. Anyone want to fess up to this? Scrapple, you do not know the Bible at all. If you would, you would know that Christ fulfilled the Jewish law in this case by is vicarious death upon the cross.
God bless,
Pete
Last edited on Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 02:04 am by Pete Macinta
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4Godncountry
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 11:39 pm |
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thinkfirst wrote: People are born homosexual or heterosexual. Pete's saying it's wrong to practice it, just as adultery is wrong to commit.
People are born Sinners! Not homosexual. Gods ordination is Man and Woman! It is Satan who has perverted sexuality. You are being lied to. By Satan, Society and unfortunatly your self. I can only hope that God will shine his light of truth upon your heart! It is the only way to see the truth.
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thinkfirst
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 10:53 pm |
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| People are born homosexual or heterosexual. Pete's saying it's wrong to practice it, just as adultery is wrong to commit.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 10:36 pm |
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No Scrapple the Word of God is exactly that, the Word of God.
and as 4Godncountry wrote, which I think is excellent, and think about it, especially the last 2 sentences:
It really doesn't matter if you disagree, it does not change the truth of God's Word. This is what we will be judged by. For me, I want to err on the side of caution and heed God's word. If your wrong, it is an eternal mistake. If I am wrong I haven't lost anything!
Aye!
Amen!
God bless,
Pete
heading off to City Council
Last edited on Mon Jul 21st, 2008 10:36 pm by Pete Macinta
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scrapple
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 10:28 pm |
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Pete Macinta wrote: For me, and others like me, the Word of God is fact
There are, however, millions of people in the U.S. alone who don't agree or even believe there is such a thing as "the Word of God," so, outside discussions with your fellow believers, it is as she stated -- opinion.
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4Godncountry
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 09:44 pm |
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We are ALL Born Sinners. Homosexuality is a sin, but is also a perverted sin. A perversion is something that is extremely contrary to Gods Laws. It also goes against nature. How can Homosexuals "be fruitful and multiply"? While sex is given for pleasure, it is also the way we reproduce. Homosexuality is a choice. It goes against nature. Plants have male and female parts. Animals are not homosexual. Even they have enough natural sense to mate with the opposite sex!
The devil has perverted many of God's ways. It is God's way that we be able to tell men and women apart. In today's society men look like women and women look like men. This is why people are confused! It really doesn't matter if you disagree, it does not change the truth of God's Word. This is what we will be judged by. For me, I want to err on the side of caution and heed God's word. If your wrong, it is an eternal mistake. If I am wrong I haven't lost anything!
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 08:42 pm |
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MacMom, with all due respect you, I would say it is a fact from the Word of God.
I think I've posted that passage already.
For me, and others like me, the Word of God is fact, and all else is to be evaluated by It.
God bless,
Pete
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MacMom
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 08:39 pm |
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And homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle.
That is an opinion. Even when you say it as if it was irrefutible truth with such absolute confidence and complete belief, it is still an opinion, not a fact.
Nothing wrong with an opinion. Mine happens to differ from yours.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 08:13 pm |
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Greetings Lawgirl 428
Doesn't God create all children? So, if a child is born gay, are they the devils spawn? Damn...I guess when the chemistry got mixed up a sin was automatically created. IMO many who are gay are born gay.
I have already shown the Biblical answer to that question
1. everyone is born sinners.
2. God did not create sin, satan did, and man made the choice to go with satan
As indicated on this thread, and if one would do research, "scientific proof" that people are born homosexual is also contradicted by "scientific proof" they are not.
People are not puppets. We have choices. And homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle.
The bible says many things
Have you read it? If so, how much? Have you read the whole Bible?
It has one Author: God.
Other religions have different beliefs. So who is right and who is wrong?
Jesus Christ said He was right:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
He does not lie.
And, btw, the power of the Word of God is very very easily shown. Many prophecies have been fulfilled. One quite specific in our time. I've already posted that easy fact elsewhere on this forum.
I, for one, have a difficult time believing that all translations in the bible are exactly as they were intended.
Your good on that one. There are some mighty bad translations out there. I personally stick with KJV for the NT, or the NKJV.
Further, for all those who condemn these people or pass judgment, IMO are sinning.
As indicated, sinners and their sin are prejudged by God Himself. It's amazing how some people moan and groan about "judging" when it involves issues below the belt.
scapple wrote
Plus, what the Bible quoters on this subject are forgetting is the flipside of the separation of church and state -- the state can't force your church to accept gay marriage, so why do you care?
Why do I care? Because the holy love of God impells every true believer to proclaim the good news that there is salvation from sin in Jesus Christ.
I care, and so do others, because, it is written in the Word of God....
Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.
and, read very carefully....
John 3:18 - 18 "He that believeth in Him is not condemned; but He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
And the meaning of "believe" by the whole context of the Holy Bible means to fully commit, as already shown on this thread.
Scrapple, believe me I care, otherwise I would not be in Cambridge.
God bless,
Pete
Last edited on Mon Jul 21st, 2008 08:37 pm by Pete Macinta
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scrapple
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 07:38 pm |
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All this talk about sin and the Bible...
First of all, the Bible is not U.S. law, it is a book some people choose to worship in their private life -- which is and should always remain separate from law and state. Deuteronomy, Chapter 13 also said we should kill, with our own hands, any "brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend" who serves other gods. Anyone want to fess up to this?
I've never understood how someone's private life/relationships affect anyone else's. I'm married; how does "gay marriage" etc. affect my marriage? The answer is not at all.
Plus, what the Bible quoters on this subject are forgetting is the flipside of the separation of church and state -- the state can't force your church to accept gay marriage, so why do you care?
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law_girl428
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 05:35 pm |
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Well, here's a great question...
Doesn't God create all children? So, if a child is born gay, are they the devils spawn? Damn...I guess when the chemistry got mixed up a sin was automatically created.
IMO many who are gay are born gay. It's not a lifestyle choice. The child is born with genetic makeup that controls their orientation. If this is true, which I believe it is, then should we cast this child out because they are a "sinner"? I'm sorry but honestly I think it's a bunch of bull sh*t to say that gay people are sinner's simply because they are hard wired at birth.
I think that too many self-righteous people need a reason to point a finger at someone who is "different" or someone who is a "sinner" simply because it makes them look better.
I was always taught that each person is created equally and that each person is created by God to be special in their own way. In keeping with the thought that a person is born into their orientation (and most of the time know that they are "different" before puberty and before sexual desire kicks in) I can't believe that their orientation is a sin.
The bible says many things. Other religions have different beliefs. So who is right and who is wrong? IMO, having morals and a belief of a higher power, living to be the best person you can be, regardless of your sexual orientation, should be enough. I, for one, have a difficult time believing that all translations in the bible are exactly as they were intended, the same as incorrect history books. I really believe that the good book is similar to a history book. I also believe that all man will sin, but it's the intent that separates the sin.
Further, for all those who condemn these people or pass judgment, IMO are sinning. We are taught to love one another and not judge our neighbors. I will say that I have some friends who are gay, and they perhaps are some of the best people I know as far as their character goes. I am straight, was born striaght....but it doesn't make me more pure than my gay friends, nor does their orientation make them sinners more so than myself.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 11:58 am |
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cbothsides wrote...
What people do in their private life is fine as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. Tell that to Lot's wife who had lived in Sodom and Gommorah.
The truth is sin, public or private, affects the whole of society.
Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.
God bless,
Pete
Last edited on Mon Jul 21st, 2008 12:01 pm by Pete Macinta
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cbothsides
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 03:55 am |
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| What people do in their private life is fine as long as it doesn't interfere with my life.
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 02:43 am |
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TF wrote...
IF all 10 commandments were considered equally, NO ONE would be welcome...
TF, do you understand there is a diffence between being welcomed, and being a member that has "voting" and other privaleges. I don't know where all you have been, but all people are welcomed in our church providing they do not disturb the service.
Funny how loving someone is BAD.
Again, real love, Godly is holy love. The cure is in the cross of Jesus Christ. All of us sinners need to accept, commit to, that cure.
I used to go to a Church in Landover... young Minister, wife, 4 kids... he was so sincere... he preached that a divorced person must ALWAYS be married to their first spouse, that it was adultery to take on a new one,
That's all based on Holy Scripture. Please see the following index for a variety of topics on this matter:
THE MARRIAGE PAGES
With that said, I have a divorced and remarried couple in our church. They have children. This divorced man accepts the Biblical principles as laid forth in the above link. He is being trained by me in part for service in the Kingdom of God.
We have no official membership yet. He qualifies though. (Our constitution is being worked on).
Note -added at 11:04 or so - should have thought of this the first time. TF, you gave an example of someone who let down on their Biblical truths. However, there people that that has happened to and stuck with their Biblical principles.
God bless,
Pete
note, I made a sentence bold not for you TF, but for others who might have trouble reading the post.
Last edited on Mon Jul 21st, 2008 03:20 am by Pete Macinta
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4Godncountry
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 02:39 am |
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thinkfirst wrote: Pooh- I see it the way you do. I believe you're saying what I keep saying: All sins are bad, and life is one long journey and learning experience, but most churches pick and choose which sins are okay and which are bad and reject the ones they decide are bad sinners. For ex: reject a divorced person, but accept one that disowned a parent; or reject a smoker, but the whole 5th row is obese, or; a single man who lives with his girlfriend is rejected, but an outspoken racist is welcome. IF all 10 commandments were considered equally, NO ONE would be welcome... Funny how loving someone is BAD.
I used to go to a Church in Landover... young Minister, wife, 4 kids... he was so sincere... he preached that a divorced person must ALWAYS be married to their first spouse, that it was adultery to take on a new one, they must be celibate. Let me just say that when his lovely wife left him for her high school sweetheart, left him with 4 kids, he remarried VERY fast. See? Life IS a learning experience.
I think the point is being missed. All Sin is Wrong and should be dealt with accordingly, however you must separate those who attend services, from those who are in leadership. All should be welcome to attend without regard to any sin or lifestyle or race. However Christian Leadership MUST be held to a higher level. As far as the young minister, that was not a learning experience, but someone who let down on their own standard. If the place that you worship allows leadership to live in sinful relationships, then they are wrong! In no way am I stating that someone is not welcomed or loved! However to be in a place of Leadership, Christian, Biblical standards must be upheld, consistently!
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thinkfirst
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 02:24 am |
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Pooh- I see it the way you do. I believe you're saying what I keep saying: All sins are bad, and life is one long journey and learning experience, but most churches pick and choose which sins are okay and which are bad and reject the ones they decide are bad sinners. For ex: reject a divorced person, but accept one that disowned a parent; or reject a smoker, but the whole 5th row is obese, or; a single man who lives with his girlfriend is rejected, but an outspoken racist is welcome. IF all 10 commandments were considered equally, NO ONE would be welcome... Funny how loving someone is BAD.
I used to go to a Church in Landover... young Minister, wife, 4 kids... he was so sincere... he preached that a divorced person must ALWAYS be married to their first spouse, that it was adultery to take on a new one, they must be celibate. Let me just say that when his lovely wife left him for her high school sweetheart, left him with 4 kids, he remarried VERY fast. See? Life IS a learning experience.
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4Godncountry
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 01:23 am |
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pooh, I really think that you have adopted the mentality of a lot of folks today. Everyone wants to be a Christian, but no one wants to be CHRIST LIKE. However, it just is not this way. Thank God that his word does not change. In a day when morals and many other things are being tossed out the window we have something to stand on. The Word of God. He does not think any differently about things today than any other time. If it was sin then, it is still sin today. The Real problem is not with the World, we know they are lost and need a Saviour, what is really alarming is the mentality of people who believe that they can get to Heaven living anyway they chose. As far as loving God, the following scripture comes to mind.
1 John 5:2 KJV
by this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. The keeping his commandments is part of Loving God. You cannot do one without the other. My prayer is that The God of heaven will shine light into your life, and allow you to see. nothing I can write will change your mind, but it is truth, anyway. Unless God opens your eyes, you cannot see. Oh, by the way:
Daniel 9:6 KJV
Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. If you will not receive his servants, you cannot receive him.
Last edited on Mon Jul 21st, 2008 02:42 am by 4Godncountry
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Pete Macinta
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 06:01 pm |
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Pooh writes...
I love God and I accept him into my life and my home, therefore I am not willing to debate my love of God with "you or anyone else".
Why reply?
Anyhow, since you did, the real love of God is based on holiness, easily shown in the fact that predominate moral attribute of God is holiness - mentioned more than Him being loving. God's love is not like our love. It is pure.
but you are interpreting a very old "word of God"...
How about you? Sounds like you want to rewrite much of it. Look, the Word of God has not changed. It remains the same. Sure, there's different versions, the ancient manuscripts remain the same. In an honest translation there's not much difference at all from the original when it states the effiminate, etc. will not enter the Kingdom of God. What do you go by? Just any old thing that comes to your mind? Do you think that God would be that stupid not to give us any instructions in written form?
NOTE - the above paragraph was edited by me after I noticed I did not put a question mark after t"...any old thing that comes to your mind." Sorry for that error. It was meant as a question.
who are we to say that God has not changed his mind about somethings
We don't say. God says. You've must have missed that Scripture I posted.
As the World has evolved so has many peoples way of thinking. There is a possibility that God too has changed his mind
Oh what a wonderful God to trust in. One Who changes His mind, like we do! Malarkey. Rediculous. So, let's see, with the way things are going, He should give the nod to adultery in about another 50 years. Some God to believe in, Anything goes, eh? Just give it time.
Have you ever thought about the parents of a child who came to them and said that they were gay and then the parents kicked the kid out of the house and as time went on they accepted their child as they were because they loved them. God loves everyone of his children and just because he thinks something is a sin does not mean he stops loving us.
Correct. But what you apparently refuse to understand that though He loves us, that alone does not get us to heaven. God's love is a holy love. A sinner cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Therefore He has made provision in the cross of Christ which is ours if we commit to Him.
BTW, I am of a science mind and I believe there is a gene in these people that makes them the way they are. I dont beleive it is their choice to be gay.
Well, you probably know that there are studies on both sides of the fence on that issue. Forget science. Read the Bible and you will see God can change these people.
...EVERYONE judges others based on their perceptions or guesses.
Disagree again. In cases of sin, it is prejudged.
Also, there are many ways to interpret one sentence and not all people see the Bible as cut and dry.
Yes, I feel sorry for people who can't figure out that when God calls something sin then that's what it is. That's pitiful. Really, for some, not all, they are deceiving themselves. Sin is sin. Stealing is stealing. Fornication is fornication. Homosexuality is homosexuality and the Bible says all three of these things I mentioned are sin. Knock one out just because we don't like it we have to knock out the other ones.
In Addition I would like to add that having a convicted child molester teach minors is an absurd notion considering sex offenders are not allowed within a certain amount of feet of children.
Ah, who judged them?
That was comparing apples to oranges when I suggested that sinners be allowed to be church No it's not. Sin is sin. That's my point.
members I was refering to law abiding citizens, and to my knowledge it is not unlawful to live together without being married as in Thinkfirst's case nor is it illegal to be gay.
In God's eye's it's wrong to be a homosexual, thief, drunkard or any such thing. Hence the church rules I posted, based on Scripture.
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