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IrishKid3
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 05:31 pm |
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| There is an inexpensive book called "Robert's Rules of Order"...don't know where you can get a copy, but am sure any book store would have them...(Just 'searched for it on the net'...they have 10 pages of different types of books for any & all situations, I would think...except for a 'failing marriage', or a dog that won't train to go outside, etc...but I do know that their book will make you an 'expert' ASAP! ...don't know if the 'bored of 'dRectkors' will listen to you, but it is a verry good investment...at least the lawyer might listen to you...ct
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averymatte
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 01:50 pm |
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| In a Board Meeting can nonboard members in attendance conduct business?
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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Dear Avery:
The Board does not include members in discussion and debate as a courtesy...the board is required by law to include members in discussion and debate..Title 33 Property, and Corporation Title 10, and their own adopted Rule under Robert's Rules.
It is insulting and unkind to try to deminish the credentials of those who have earned them without understanding anything about the field of study you are discussing...
A quorum of members may meet and take action at any time....for several different reasons. I am too busy today to go into them at this time.
Please Avery, try to follow the discussion. Dorothy7...
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averymatte
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 02:04 pm |
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Dorothy
As a "registered Parliamentarian (retired)"
As a "Member of the Official Softball League Official"
As a "Officer in Maricopa Sherriffs Department"
As a "IRS employee"
You can ask 3 different people in those fields a question and get 2 or 3 different amswers.
In a Board Meeting can nonboard members in attendance conduct business? Out of courtesy they may be allowed in the dicussion, controlled by the chair.
The Board Members are people that volunteer, they are not pros. The pros sit on the side lines and argue the methods !
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 01:19 pm |
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Dear Avery: I am a registered Parliamentarian (retired)...my opinions are similar to those you pay an attorney for his advice regarding the proceedings of a deliberative body...this will be a freeby...
If you are trying to ask whether the comments during the forum should be recorded verbatim in the Minutes...I must say, it depends.
When the idea first arose before HOA boards of how to include members input without extending the business meeting interminably, several procedural questions were raised...
1. Failure to convene the meeting prior to the forum limits the rights of members to Make Motions from the Floor, and to have those Motions debated by the body, and acted on by the board.
I argued that if this member participation was not included as a part of the meeting, the board would also be limited in its right to take up Motions or act upon motions that had not appeared on the Agenda.
Members would then be unable to bring matters before the board requiring consideration.
2. Following that, most boards then agreed that members must be allowed to participate in the discussions following a Motion, or proposed actions of the Board, and that all Motions made by members be recorded, along with the disposition of those Motions.
I then argued that if the member could bring matters before the board during the discussion period, why bother having a forum at all? Particulary since the member's concerns expressed during the forum are not a part of the record? Members may offer amendments to pending motions, Make Motions, and debate Motions at that time.
The forum has become a long series of past board members and committtee persons reciting congratulations to one another.
Because the HOA boards seldom have many members in attendance at monthly meetings, most who do attend have business to be brought before the Board, and few are willing to make repeated trips to the office while their business is considered...because no decision can be made in many cases without convening at least a quorum of the Board for an Emergency or Special Meeting...the owners find no resolution unless their business is expressed and a Motion made during the regular meetings.
The nature of HOA boards includes consuming larges blocks of time over what is a simple matter, so most boards have one meeting per month, and prepare in advance for time to consider and act on these concerns from members in attendance.
This does not include the requirements in the corporation and property statutes for addressing members bringing business before the board. As I stated earlier, the rules exist primarily to protect members rights.
Last edited on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 01:23 pm by Dorothy7
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averymatte
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 02:02 pm |
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Dorothy
As an example of how you avoid answering questions, this was the " the Farnsworth Kids swim hours" site.
You change subjects rather than answer!
We can finish this dicussion in Dreamland Dissidents site.
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 10:27 pm |
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averymatte wrote: Dorothy
You don't know the differance between a Board Meeting and a General Meeting? Or you won't admit it because it would discredit your claim that the Board Meetings are improper!
That is the problem with these sites, you can say or claim anything you want, you can usaully get a way with it!
No one was allowed to speak at Vicki's meeting except her Attorney, Vicki, Maxwell and if I remember correctly a friend of hers. Nothing General about it Dear! Dear Avery: You misremember the February 2nd, 2006 meeting...The meeting is declared a General Meeting of the Dreamland Villa Community Club by the then President Billie Taparro...After he was introduced, Mr. Maxwell reminded those in the audience that if they wanted to speak they needed to sign up at the sign up table (there was no sign up table); then he decided that "If no one else wants to speak, then Vicki could speak.
She rose and introduced her attorney, Mr. Iannateli, and Maxwell launches into whom could speak and when. Vicki, he said, could speak, but both she and Mr. Iannateli could not speak...then he launched a 72 minute fillibuster, and reminded everyone that he would only be there for 90 minutes, after Mr. Iannateli finally asked if they were there to review and discuss the documents as per the invitation his client had received, or were they there to listen to a filabuster?
I have the tape, and the transcript...so, Avery my dear, you are: WRONG AGAIN!
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averymatte
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 09:41 pm |
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Dorothy
You don't know the differance between a Board Meeting and a General Meeting? Or you won't admit it because it would discredit your claim that the Board Meetings are improper!
That is the problem with these sites, you can say or claim anything you want, you can usaully get a way with it!
No one was allowed to speak at Vicki's meeting except her Attorney, Vicki, Maxwell and if I remember correctly a friend of hers. Nothing General about it Dear!
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 02:49 pm |
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I would assume, based on my experience, whenever Tana remembers to convene a meeting...ditto adjournments.
Under the statutes and rules of the club it should begin at 9:00 A.M. the second Tuesday of every month. (not withstanding typos).
General Meetings are held in Farnsworth Hall...seems to be the only requirement with this board. I remember Vicki's meeting to which she had been invited to meet with "Mr. Maxwell and the Board" that when she arrived had become a "general meeting". So, who knows? The rules upon which members must rely, and notice of which should be given just do not seem to penetrate the fog of ignorance and arrogance surrounding these folks.
Dorothy7Last edited on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 02:55 pm by Dorothy7
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averymatte
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 01:17 pm |
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My question was " When has the meeting Board legally begun?"
Your complaint was incomplete Board meeting minutes.
Would you explain the differance in a Board Meeting & a General Meeting!
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Sun Apr 13th, 2008 02:51 pm |
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The answer to your question is: ANY RULES, OR ACTIONS OF THE BOARD, OR THOSE WHO CREATE ITS AGENDA, THAT VIOLATES THE RIGHTS OF MEMBERS TO BE HEARD AND TO RECEIVE APPROPIATE RESPONSES FROM THE BOARD, ARE VIOLATIONS OF THE RULES ADOPTED BY THE BOARD, VIOLATES BOTH THE STATUTES AND THE RULES.
ALL RULES EXIST TO PROTECT THE MEMBER'S RIGHTS...EVEN MEMBERS OF THE BOARD. DOROTHY7
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averymatte
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Posted: Sun Apr 13th, 2008 02:10 pm |
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Dorothy
Agenda
Open Forum
Pledge Of Allegiance
Call to Order
Roll Call of Directors ............... Forum decided here
Approval of Pst Mettings Mins
Treasurers Report
ETC
When has the meeting legally begun?
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Sun Apr 13th, 2008 01:40 pm |
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Dear Avery:
Your questions are, at last relevant, coherent and deserve an answer.
1. After a quorum is established, and the meeting convened, (hopefully on the scheduled day and at the scheduled time), the board allows 3 minutes per person in attendance to voice a complaint or question the board.
Matters brought before them requireing resolution by the board must be recorded whether in the forum, or not.
2. Motions brought before the Board either by members or the Board itself, must be recorded.
3. Board meetings, by their nature are deliberative assemblies, and discussions that include actions by the board (either at that meeting, or subsequently, at another meeting should be recorded in full in the Minutes, along with the time at which they will bring the matter forward for discussion and resolution.)
4. This club operates as a non-profit corporation, and therefore the questions that pertain to the past board actions should be included for the benefit of members not present at that meeting.
For example, in the dust up between the board and their attempt to expel members in violation of the rules, Minutes were published in which a Motion to Expel was read by Janet Massey...I recorded it. That motion was followed by a Motion to Adjourn, over my objections. Yet, when the Minutes were published, that Motion was recorded as the second motion, and a Motion not made was published as the first.
No record of my objection (that the motion to adjourn was OUT OF ORDER and that I had a right to respond) was not recorded either.
As a legal entity, the club is bound now by the statutes controlling their actions.
If, as they claim, they are "just volunteers", and unable to comprehend the limits of their powers resulting in unlawful violations of member's rights, or their fiduciary responsibilities, perhaps they should consider resigning?
I always try to give you the benefit of the doubt that you may not be aware of the rules, or that you have been misinformed...no matter how weird and unresponsive your statements become...so I hope you will look at the facts not in dispute and consider the possibility that these boards are proceeding without a proper legal foundation for their actions. Dorothy7
Last edited on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 01:43 pm by Dorothy7
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averymatte
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 01:37 pm |
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Dorothy
While on the subject of pool kids hours you mentioned;
Are you aware that the Minutes are incomplete, or heavily edited screening out any and all conflict within the board, as well with members complaints? Hmmm? Dorothy7
Let me see 20 minutes " Open Forum" plus......
An hour and a half meeting, and you want complete minutes.
Are word for word minutes part of a proper meeting records. I don't think so!
Are discussions part of the minutes?
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 10:08 pm |
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Avery: Did someone actually reprimand a DV owner of both her property and now, since you-all are insisting you're an HOA, a member who has the same owner-ship as you do, or the board does... in the pools, club-houses, kitchens, hobby rooms, tables, chairs and exercise equipment as you, or any other DV owner suffering under forced membership.
Has it never occured to any of you that if you hadn't invested all that money in your lawyer, you could pay for a life-guard? Hmmmmmmmm?
And Avery, please try to remember that the proper response to anyone with whom you disagree, is to offer alternative facts that you can prove! It is not simply to argue that facts offered are untrue...it requires better facts. Personal attacks that cannot be proven are disallowed in civilized debate.
For example, does The Citizen offer an opportunity to rebutt their claims, and their facts, or not? Editorials by one board member or supporter are invited and printed regularly...those who disagree with them are never printed.
Are you aware that the Minutes are incomplete, or heavily edited screening out any and all conflict within the board, as well with members complaints? Hmmm? Dorothy7
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averymatte
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 02:10 pm |
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Dorothy7
You printed "Having a board member, or any other member reprimand you or your grandchildren is outrageous! Dorothy7 "
I think the truth was the "parent or guardian was approached NOT THE CHILD so TELL THE TRUTH !"
You do this all the time "1/2 truths."
But it serves your Vendetta well!
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averymatte
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 02:01 pm |
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Readers
The true vulgarities and obscenities are always generated and propigated by those who sit in front of their computers making up 1/2 truths passing them on as the gospel decieving their elderly and ill neighbors.
All because to date the mandatory membership has been decided on by the courts to be legal and binding and these people feel are pouting. Most of them having personal vendettas. They have no conern for the good of the community as a whole.
The pool being an example, the last writer doesn't like rules and regulations, unless if you have read their entries for the last several years, they are the ones they want obeyed to the last little letter.
Last edited on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 02:04 pm by averymatte
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 12:56 pm |
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patti1anni wrote: For the grouchy, old man and woman at Farnsworth Pool Monday 24th. Your vulgar, obscene language was entirely inappropriate and uncalled for around my children and grandchildren. These children hours have been approved by the board. Sure there were several rambunctious kids there that had to be reprimanded, but most were well behaved. Please use your brains and common sense and swim at another time. You owe an apology to everyone there. Patti1anni: The true vulgarities and obscenities are always generated and propigated by those who sit over at Read Hall making up unenforcable rules for others.
They violate the rules and the law all the time, and that is obscene! They trample the rights of anyone who disagrees with them and use their silly bulletin to defame them...(now a majority of those who own these facilities) if they object, they refuse to publish complaint against the Board in that useless piece of propaganda rag The Citizen.
Having a board member, or any other member reprimand you or your grandchildren is outrageous! Dorothy7
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Dorothy7
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 12:47 pm |
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averymatte wrote: Bigwave
You sure read a lot into something that isn't even said. I don't use vugarity any where and don't appreciate any one that does. There are times when kids need reprimanded and sure adults should use the proper language.
On the same subject as a dues paying member I should expect any guest using the facility in my community to obey the rules no matter what time of the day! An since we are expected to be self monitoring I have the right to approach those in violation.
Being civil of course! Dear Avery: The facilities in OUR community are available to all owners that pay for the use of those things...now that we are in a forced membership setting, the community has become the common property of those who are being forced to pay for these boffo facilities without their consent. Get it now? That includes letting their children, friends, relatives and guests splash around anytime they choose to romp in a common bathing facility. Even roses have thorns...Dorothy
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IrishKid3
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 05:31 am |
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| Averrry Dearest...you are just too, tooo busy...have you ever tried fishing?,...ocean fishing especially...but you had better go to a Ear, Nose, & Throat specialist first...for your sinuses of course...did you think that I might just be thinking 'badly' of you??? ...really???...ct
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averymatte
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 08:57 pm |
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Bigwave
You sure read a lot into something that isn't even said. I don't use vugarity any where and don't appreciate any one that does. There are times when kids need reprimanded and sure adults should use the proper language.
On the same subject as a dues paying member I should expect any guest using the facility in my community to obey the rules no matter what time of the day! An since we are expected to be self monitoring I have the right to approach those in violation.
Being civil of course!
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bigwavedave
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 04:22 pm |
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averymatte wrote: Patti1anni
You failed to ask for an apology from the "several rambunctious kids there that had to be reprimanded" adult guardians. Sure kids will be kids, at the same time crumpy old men and women have the right to expect kids to be controlled by their guardians.
Avery, If a person goes there knowing it is childrens hours at the pool, they cannot REASONABLY expect kids to not act like kids. When you were young, you acted like a kid as did I and every other kid. Kids get around water in a pool and act like kids. I as a grumpy old man expect this. I as a grumpy old man, would never use vulgarity around kids who are acting like kids. I would either tolerate the actions or leave. I think you owe Patti1anni an apology for what appears to be condoning an ADULT to use vulgarity around kids. Adults need to act like the adult in situations like this. Last edited on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 05:59 pm by bigwavedave
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averymatte
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 04:27 am |
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Patti1anni
You failed to ask for an apology from the "several rambunctious kids there that had to be reprimanded" adult guardians. Sure kids will be kids, at the same time crumpy old men and women have the right to expect kids to be controlled by their guardians.
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patti1anni
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 06:08 pm |
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| For the grouchy, old man and woman at Farnsworth Pool Monday 24th. Your vulgar, obscene language was entirely inappropriate and uncalled for around my children and grandchildren. These children hours have been approved by the board. Sure there were several rambunctious kids there that had to be reprimanded, but most were well behaved. Please use your brains and common sense and swim at another time. You owe an apology to everyone there.
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