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Manatee
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:14 am |
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I don't want to live in a place like England where they prosecute people for defending themselves and let the criminal go free.
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TSOinPEO
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 06:43 pm |
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wallfly. First of all, publishing the ARS is not going to make a bit of difference. Why, because it wasn't a secret to begin with. Second, if someone plans to go into an establishment and drink alcohol while carrying probably doesn't give a rats behind about the statute because they probably don't have a ccw. How many criminals have you read about that committed a crime with a gun they legally owned? If you outlaw guns, they will still get them. That's a fact.
I think your best bet would be to stay locked up in your house. You obviously have zero faith in anybody but yourself to do the right thing. Contrary to what you seem to believe, most people do the right thing. Maybe you should move to London where no one has these rights.
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rfolland
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 02:44 pm |
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If a statute currently before the Arizona legislature passes and is signed into law, there will be no need for a "concealed carry" permit. The two main provisions of this piece of legislation are that if you can legally buy a hand gun, you can carry it concealed and secondly that you can carry your concealed weapon into an establishment that serves alcohol provided you don't drink.
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wallfly
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 02:02 pm |
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TSO
Who is to say that someone, who has "demonstrated their knowledge of the laws and have passed a background check", decides they are not going to be the "designated carrier tonight" and has a few. Afterall, it is concealed - who will know they have a weapon? The person's perception is now fuzzy at best. Is this person still qualified? Is this person responsible? This is what I question.
How about the person next to the one carrying a concealed weapon. This person may be a little despondent in life and realizes the person has a weapon and gains access to it.
I am saying when you put alcohol and guns together, no matter what the circumstances, it is a recipe for disaster. When you put guns and instability together, it too is a recipe for disaster. The chance of things happening for the wrong reason goes way up.
To me, your publishing the "ARS" those who are ready to take the law into their own hands, gives them justification for taking the time to get a background check and pass the test for "packing".... so they may now be ready to "defend" themselves .... maybe for the wrong reason.
I know I am fighting a loosing battle, I have for years.
Bill
The "Truilla " site shows the "Maricopa County" statistics against the "Arizona" statistics. The reason for that? We are under the Maricopa Sheriff here in SCW. The county is big and diverse. You made it sound like SCW has a crime reate above the Arizona crime rate, which is not so.
I am indeed fighting a loosing battle to think that people here in SCW do not need guns. But I still have a right to belive it.
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Manatee
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 09:37 am |
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I bought my gun 50 years ago and haven't shot anyone yet. I don't carry it because I don't want it's weight on my person. But you don't want me to catch you breaking into my house, I have a thing about that.
I avoid places where I feel I might need a gun, places like NY, DC, LA, Miami, Detroit and parts of Phoenix.
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 03:00 am |
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"Wallfly", No one advocated everyone carries a weapon. In fact the posts deal with people that do carry and are trained, tested and permited.
Your initial post dated June 9 concerned "Arizona...... the last bastion of the "Old West" with everyone carrying guns and a shootout everyday."
You added on June 12 after no one commented" No one has an opinion - very interesting......".
6 or 7 people then proceeded to comment, I being one of them. You then responded with cynicism. Possibly a subject all could agree with and make you feel more comfortable would be more appropriate.
Yes, I am in Florida and not yet a resident of Arizona.
Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 03:01 am by SunCityWestBill
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TSOinPEO
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 02:45 am |
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So, you're going off on me just because I posted the wording of the ARS section you all were talking about. Nice.
You are saying that every person who has a gun is going to shoot you. Nicer.
That's like saying every elderly person driving a car is going to crash into me because some have difficulty driving. At least to carry concealed, you have to show knowledge of the laws and pass a background check.
Enjoy.
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wallfly
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 02:35 am |
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Ok,
You alone have just scared 22000 households of people here to enjoy thier retirement.
I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I, who doesn't have too much longer in this world, will now worry about anyone neighbor, loborer, cop, fireman, person water walking, bicyclist, golfer or bocce player, let alone card player, dancer, tennis palyer, dog walker, oxygen servicer, community volunteer and countless others in my daily life.
Thank you for making my last days some of my best. If everyone has guns, how ofetn people will use them in error following logic.
......... you (i'm too nice to insert the word I am thinking of)...... there is so much more to life....... hopefully you will learn this .....
til then go away and keep your comments in Peoria and your guns.
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TSOinPEO
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Posted: Fri Jun 26th, 2009 10:41 pm |
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Arizona Revised Statutes ยง13-411 Justification; use of force in crime prevention; applicability:
A. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of arson of an occupied structure under section 13-1704, burglary in the second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508, kidnapping under section 13-1304, manslaughter under section 13-1103, second or first degree murder under section 13-1104 or 13-1105, sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault under section 13-1406, child molestation under section 13-1410, armed robbery under section 13-1904 or aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1 and 2.
B. There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force justified by subsection A of this section.
C. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if the person is acting to prevent the commission of any of the offenses listed in subsection A of this section.
D. This section is not limited to the use or threatened use of physical or deadly physical force in a person's home, residence, place of business, land the person owns or leases, conveyance of any kind, or any other place in this state where a person has a right to be.
If you can articulate that you feel that your life was in danger, you are justified. Personally, every person who own's a gun should be required to take a weapons safety course.Last edited on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 10:42 pm by TSOinPEO
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HELLO LOGIC
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 06:36 pm |
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Yep, note the bold print and authorative blah,blah,blah from Florida. Now we get jokes from Maryland and .... Rusty. So much for Arizona public forums.
To get back to the point, there are too many people out there with lack of self-control to hand out gun permits to just anyone. Not to mention the illegal guns floating around used for crime. The odds are if you are attacked, there won't be enough time to get your gun and defend yourself, walking around with a gun in hand waiting for a crime to happen is no way to live.
It will probably take someone quite prominent to be killed.
Oh, wait, thats already happened! AH, FREEDOM, at what cost?
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wallfly
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 03:48 pm |
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| Bill ........... is in Florida..........
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 02:25 pm |
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Manatee - still there and they have been looking for you.
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Manatee
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 07:20 am |
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The original Hooters is on Gulf to Bay right off of 19, if it is still there.
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 02:05 am |
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The best thing about Route 19 in Clearwater is Lenny's.
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 02:03 am |
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I was not assuming.
If an individual were involved in an "about to be" mugging and were lethally threatened - literally felt their life was in danger, they may meet the lethal threat with the same lethally threatening force. Someone pulls a gun on you or as you are walking you dog at night a car stops and the passenger points a lethal weapon at you and you feel lethally threatened, you may pull your weapon and eliminate the threat. If a person does not lethally threaten you and your life is not in danger and you eliminate the nuisance - yes, have a nice life in jail.
This is no comparison to Bernard Goetz who was not lethally threatened on a New York subway car, but rather was "intimidated" and drew his weapon and fired, without any of his 4 victims showing or possessing a weapon of lethal force.
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Ms. Boots
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 12:59 am |
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SunCityWestBill wrote: "I own nothing that valuable..nothing worth another life."
I do - me.
Actually, I was talking about an attempted mugging..it's unknown if the perp was armed at all...why do you assume it would be your life or someone else? If the perp was unarmed, your life would be spent in prison for murder 3.
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Manatee
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 12:34 am |
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We found people were more relaxed on the gulf coast than on the Atlantic side. My wife found her neck wasn't red enough for Jacksonville. The Pinellas beaches were great.
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 12:03 am |
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"I own nothing that valuable..nothing worth another life."
I do - me.
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rfolland
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 12:03 am |
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Picky, picky.... it's still a scenic drive. Although, I must admit that I prefer the miles and miles of palmettos on the East coast.
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Manatee
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 11:17 pm |
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US 19 doesn't go through Tampa, it goes through St Pete. US 41 goes through Tampa.
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rfolland
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 11:11 pm |
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Bill... leave Tampa and move to SCW? Why, you'd have to give up the awesome scenic splendor of US Hwy 19.
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Ms. Boots
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 10:08 pm |
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wallfly wrote: No one has an opinion - very interesting......
I have an opinion: these people, supposedly carrying weapons for protection, are like carpeters carrying a hammer...suddenly, nails seem to pop up all over. I have been in many places a majority of people would consider dangerous. Once, I was about to be mugged when a large, very large, plainclothes person intereceded...would I have have become a Bernard Getz and shot the would be mugger/ I sincerely hope not. I own nothing that valuable..nothing worth another life.
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 09:50 pm |
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I would like to consider "Hello Logic" draw his attention to a website I discovered and used as the basis for my post concerning Sun City West, Az. The information is publicly available.
http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Sun_City_West-Arizona/community-info/
As far as "being the voice from Florida for the last couple of years,..." I have always been quite open I am from the Tampa area and am trying to sell my house and move to the Sun Cities and am a member of the Forum to keep informed and knowledgeable.
As far as possibly walking the dog with a short barrel shotgun, "Hello Logic" once again, as is their bent, incorrectly assumed and cynically responded I would be pursuing that course of action. As my previous post was concerning a CCW Permit, a shotgun would not be the subject weapon.
As far as my moving "Hello Logic" to the Sun Cities area, I am constantly assured, by reading your continued cynical, tired comments and baseless assumptions, of your continued personal comfort in the desert, with your head buried in the sand. You have obviously found Utopia and your Nirvana. Enjoy, I will be there soon..
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HELLO LOGIC
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 07:27 pm |
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| Bill gets his numbers by being the authority on all things SCW. He has been the voice of knowledge from Florida for the last couple of years. Nice,... short barrel shotgun to walk a dog. The coyotes aren't afraid of your gun. The houses are empty in the summer, no one to look for out the window. Best not to come here.
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wallfly
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 01:35 am |
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Paranoia is running rampent here. Please! All you people who have just moved here, SCW is a WONDERFUL and SAFE place to live all the time.
BTW -Rolland..... the Handyman and the Owner? ....neither is dead and one was arrested.
Bill? - Not sure where you get your numbers......
You two need to watch for the door to door gun salesman the next time he's around. The name is "Guns R US" and he offers coupon for drinks..... "you've heard of the "Saturday Night Special"? Half off on drinks all night Saturday.....
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wallfly
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 12:46 am |
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Boy ..... Did I get a reaction!
I even got in the paper... although they did not print the best part! Wonder why.....
Who will know who is carrying a concealed weapon? Unless each person is frisked on their way in.... and who will do that? Hmmmm - new source of jobs for here in Arizona.....
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RESTLESS MINDS
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 07:03 pm |
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| What nonsense about the "Old West" and guns. This writer must have been watching too many Hollywood westerns. Historically, most people in the old west didn't even "pack" a sidearm. Where was this place "with everyone carrying guns and a shootout every day"? One thing we do not see in the media is that many people have prevented themselves from being robbed, injured, or raped, by having a gun in their home.
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rfolland
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Posted: Sun Jun 14th, 2009 05:47 am |
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to SCW BILL
I'm not really sure as to the numbers of snowbirds but perhaps PORA could help on that. One thing, though, generally by 9 PM it's pretty much dark except for the streetlights. In the Summer when it gets light about 5 AM, there are a fair number of folks out and about before it gets really hot.
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Sun Jun 14th, 2009 01:36 am |
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Thanks for the response "rfolland".
The amount of "empty" homes might concern me, I, who plan to be a permanent resident, would want to live in a neighborhood where I have constant neighbors. It might feel better to look out the window at night and see lights on in the neighboring homes - or is this utopia?
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rfolland
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Posted: Sun Jun 14th, 2009 01:01 am |
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As far as a burglary rate goes, you have to factor in the fact that a significant number of houses in SCW are vacant about 6 months of the year (snowbirds). In July-August, it sometimes seems like a ghost town around here. When they used to publish the crime blotter, there always were items like "I left my garage door open and someone stole my "golf clubs, bicycle, whatever". We also used to get a least one or more reports a month about someone having entered a house and stolen someone's mother's engagement ring ( or something like that) out of their jewelry box or their glasses with nothing else being taken. A short while ago a house across from me had the police visit in the middle of the night... it was a rental unit that had been vacant for a while... don't know what the deal was.
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Sun Jun 14th, 2009 12:32 am |
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From afar at the present time, I read the crime statistics and there is a burglery at the rate of at least one a month in the area.
In all of Arizona 4.63% of the population if affected by Property Crime, in Sun City West during the same period 5.04% of the population is affected. As I said, I am a non-violent, but not ignoring the situation. I will have an alarm system, but if someone threatening over rides it - well you buy the ticket, you are on for the ride.
I REALLY want to live there and follow the posts here, believe me they mean something to me. I cannot wait to enjoy the places and things. I have been there several times visiting friends and looking at homes for sale and am really looking to moving there. When I am looking the question is do I want a pool or just use the Rec. Centers. I am leaning toward a pool, provided the price is reasonable.
I do believe the posters should know it is just not present residents reading the posts, but prospective buyers.
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rfolland
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 09:22 pm |
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It must be terrible to be so scared. SCW is a low crime area and people walk all the time. As far as the "immigration question" goes, in Maricopa Country the crime rate for illegals is about the same as for legals, despite what the yahoos say. We had a case here a while back where a SCW homeowner got into a dispute with a handyman. To resolve the dispute, he went into his house and got his gun. The handyman disarmed him and shot him. One is dead and the other is in jail. Remember that if you carry an "Ace" and show it, you'll probably have to play it.
Last edited on Sat Jun 13th, 2009 09:35 pm by rfolland
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 09:09 pm |
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| You have read the law correctly, but have "assumed" the one walking the dog is the aggressor, not the one defending themselves from lethal threatening from the aggressor. I, feeling my person was lethally threatened or my life is in imminent danger would be well within my rights to return the same lethal "threat" or action. A person points a threatening weapon at you, you are well within your rights to stop the threat with the same threatening weapon. A person points a threatening finger at you, you cannot point your Glock at them to remove the threat. Last edited on Sat Jun 13th, 2009 09:19 pm by SunCityWestBill
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rfolland
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 06:54 pm |
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Before you engage in "Armed Dogwalking", you might want to do a bit more research. If an individual, such as a jogger, approaches you and you pull your gun on them with no overt action on their part, you might very well be guilty of Aggravated Assault, a Class 3 Felony, which would mean you couldn't have any more firearms. Check Arizona statute 13-1203 Subsection A, Paragraph 2, statute 13-1204 Subsection A, Paragraph 2, as well as statute 13-1204 Subsection B.
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Manatee
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 08:54 am |
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A gun is protection from those who are not civil.
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SunCityWestBill
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 04:05 am |
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I am a "non-violent", but here in Tampa, I still want to move to the Sun Cties when I can sell here, I find more and more people getting CCW - Carrying Concealed Weapons Permits. I have investigated the rules, regulations and proficiency involved and these Permits are not just handed out like fishing permits to everyone applying for one.
The present state of the economy, the immigration question and overall attitude of "I want it, so I am going to take it" by whatever means is becoming quite pervasive. Friends I have in the Sun Cities feel very safe with their alarm system and a weapon in the nightstand. I will eventually take the CCW course just to be knowledgeable, but will probably purchase a short barrel shotgun just in case someone decides to come into my "Castle" forcefully and I feel threatened. The idea of my carrying a weapon on my person does not interest me, at the moment. If I would get a dog and walked it in the evening or at night, yes, I might carry.
32 states honor each others licenses, Florida and Arizona recognize each others.
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wallfly
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Posted: Sat Jun 13th, 2009 01:57 am |
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| No one has an opinion - very interesting......
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wallfly
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Posted: Tue Jun 9th, 2009 04:40 pm |
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Arizona...... the last bastion of the "Old West" with everyone carrying guns and a shootout everyday.
How many people have to be killed, before this paranoia of "everyone is out to get me" can be stopped?
How many people have to be killed before the little boys stop playing "guns". Guns do not make the man...
How many suffering families will take a stand against guns? How many are courageous enough?
How many legislators have the courage to vote no to allowing gun in restaurants with alcohol licenses -
Concealed as long as they don't drink... who is going to frisk each patron?
Civility is here. Humanity is here. Anyone heard of this? I have.
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