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rdg7359
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 12:50 am |
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edwards091791 wrote: I find it interesting that at the May 3 budget study session Cathy Carlat lobbied to add a $10 million “place holder” for the construction of the Ventana Lakes road to get the truck traffic off Beardsley road to the 2008/2009 annual budget. Just one week later Joe McCord is out gathering signatures for Mrs Carat's re-election campaign, interesting!
Was this a "handshake" promise, get it on the ballot and I will get you votes?
13 budget meetings and workshops were conducted over a six-month period without mention of the Truck Route, if Cathy was so concerned about this issue why hasnt she done anything for this? She has been in office for 4 years and we all know this issue goes back longer than that.
Concerned citizen - Peoria
I find it interesting that the residents of Ventana Lakes have any faith that Cathy Carlat has any more pull or input into what direction the new proposed truck routes will have. After reading the Peoria Independent yesterday it would appear that not only is Peoria involved, so is the city of Sun City and Surprise.
I would be very weary of any promises Cathy Carlat suggests or makes. After all this is an election year and politicians have been known to say anything and everything we want to hear just to get elected, or in this case, re-elected.
Why has nothing been done in her first 4 years in office about this issue and why trust her to do anything differently during the next 4 years, should she get re-elected.
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not in this lifetime
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 03:58 am |
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Mesquite District Update..
Open House
The Maricopa County Department of Transportation's (MCDOT) RightRoads Program, in coordination with the cities of Surprise and Peoria, is conducting an open house public meeting. Your comments and input will be welcome regarding two important issues:
The Aqua Fria Alternative Truck Route Study
Alternatives to roadway improvements to Deer Valley Road between El Mirage and Lake Pleasant Parkway, including a potential bridged crossing of the Aqua Fria River.
Stop by anytime between 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. to speak with MCDOT project team members regarding these important projects.
Where: Unitarian Universalist Church Social Hall 17540 N. Avenue of the Arts, Surprise, AZ (N. of Bell Rd at the 114th Ave. alignment)
When: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:00-7:00 p.m.
Last edited on Sun Aug 10th, 2008 04:20 am by not in this lifetime
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skyhawk
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Posted: Tue Jul 1st, 2008 08:36 pm |
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Thanks for the confirmation! The way he spoke about himself in a third person gave me a inkling.
By the way, he does "work" for Carlat. Right after she put the "truck route" on the bond, he started collecting signatures for her nomination petition. She was having difficulty getting citizens to sign. After another apparent hand shake and a nod which she is famous for, McCord was off and running. He even gave a grand speech supporting the hospital in lieu of the neighborhood. Interesting when it's not in his back yard were he stands. Or was that part of the deal? Cares about the entire community, hogwash!
The financial reports ending June 30th will be interesting. Last election it was heavy with developers & attorneys from Scottsdale.
If you want integrity, responsible growth and your neighborhood and city protected, vote for Mark Knight in the Sept. 2nd election.
Last edited on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 08:40 pm by skyhawk
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not in this lifetime
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Posted: Tue Jul 1st, 2008 05:40 pm |
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At the VL board meeting last week:
Vice Mayor Carlat advised the bond issue for removing construction trucks off of Beardsley will result in an estimated 50% reduction. The construction trucks can not be completely removed due to the location of the gravel pit, available roads for transporting and free enterprise rights. Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 06:50 pm by not in this lifetime
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skyhawk
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Posted: Tue Jul 1st, 2008 04:42 pm |
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| See ya tonight!
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Cincinnatus
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Posted: Tue Jul 1st, 2008 02:29 am |
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Cincinnatus doesn't "work for" anyone. He is concerned about the entire community of Peoria. And he DOES attend the City Council meetings so that he gets a good handle on what is happening in the city.
Just thought I would clear that up.
Cincinnatus
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skyhawk
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Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 07:04 pm |
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Cincinnatus It’s quite obvious you work for Carlat. The rest of us are citizens that care about our community.
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Cincinnatus
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 05:47 pm |
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Skyhawk needs to go back to school and relearn how to put facts together to present a coherent and cogent argument. He asks why the tape shown at the City Council meeting only began with 2001 when the trucks have been traveling through Ventana Lakes for many years before. The answer is quite simple: yes, a few trucks were there before 2001 but then there were only three mining operations in the Aqua Fria riverbed and truck traffic rarely exceeded 50 trips a day, i.e, 25 a day westbound and 25 a day eastbound. That small number likely would go unnoticed, particularly since many were (as they are today) during the early morning hours when most folks were still abed.
However, beginning with 2001, the traffic starting increasing dramatically, rising to some 300-400 per day by 2005, as was indicated by a letter read to the Council by Mr. Richard Wehbe, chairman of the Mining Board. Then, as mining operations in the riverbed grew dramatically from 2005 on (currently there are 27 separate operations going on in the eight mile stretch of the riverbed from roughly Jomax Road to just south of
Bell), so did truck traffic grow exponentially. The City Engineering Department has released road counts in excess of 1,100 truck trips and Ventana Lakes spokespersons reported they have counted as many as 1250 per day.
Skyhawk also slammed Cathy Carlat for not knowing about the Bond Committee's deliberations. Well, golly gee, neither did anyone else. The Bond Committee was an autonomous operation set up by the Council so that no one, including Council members, could influence its deliberations. Only when the Committee reported to the Council during April did anyone know that they had left out any project which would have led to relief of the truck traffic along Beardsley. Once Carlat learned of this omission she sprang into action. To scold her for that is similar to a town council in a small city in Connecticut which scolded its fire department because the department hadn't investigated its fire equipment four days before a specific fire -- as if the department knew four days in advance that the fire would happen!
Is Deer Valley being used by trucks as a short cut? Certainly, but it's illegal and Cincinnatus strongly suspects that the truck drivers (or their bosses) know that it is illegal but they figure they can save a few minutes anyway and, if they get caught and fined, well that's just another cost of doing business.
Finally, Cincinnatus is quite happy with the job he has of bringing truth to the community at large. Let's see, a "skyhawk" is a predator which preys on innocent, smaller birds which want nothing more than to be left alone and maybe bring a little joy to humans through their lilting songs. The sound a skyhawk makes is a high-pitched skreech.
Now, as to "activepeorian," you are mostly on target except that you indicate that the trucks have been around for years. Also true but see above and note that they really didn't become a problem until 2001 on and then have become a serious problem during the past three years. As recently as 18 months ago, the average daily count was between 700 and 800 whereas, today, its at least 1100 and climbing and, as noted by Mr. Wehbe, two operators (RMI and Rinker) have applied for permits to increase their operations in the riverbed. If approved and, as Mr. Wehbe noted, they always are, that will add roughly 425 truck trips a day to the mess along Beardsley, bringing the daily total to anywhere between 1525 and 1675 trips.
Also, you might be interested in knowing that the City is not waiting until after the bond election in November but has initiated a study group which is exploring all the possible routes. That group already met once and will hold a public meeting sometime during July.
Cincinnatus is happy to keep you informed so that you can make better judgments.
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Cincinnatus
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 05:47 pm |
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Skyhawk needs to go back to school and relearn how to put facts together to present a coherent and cogent argument. He asks why the tape shown at the City Council meeting only began with 2001 when the trucks have been traveling through Ventana Lakes for many years before. The answer is quite simple: yes, a few trucks were there before 2001 but then there were only three mining operations in the Aqua Fria riverbed and truck traffic rarely exceeded 50 trips a day, i.e, 25 a day westbound and 25 a day eastbound. That small number likely would go unnoticed, particularly since many were (as they are today) during the early morning hours when most folks were still abed.
However, beginning with 2001, the traffic starting increasing dramatically, rising to some 300-400 per day by 2005, as was indicated by a letter read to the Council by Mr. Richard Wehbe, chairman of the Mining Board. Then, as mining operations in the riverbed grew dramatically from 2005 on (currently there are 27 separate operations going on in the eight mile stretch of the riverbed from roughly Jomax Road to just south of
Bell), so did truck traffic grow exponentially. The City Engineering Department has released road counts in excess of 1,100 truck trips and Ventana Lakes spokespersons reported they have counted as many as 1250 per day.
Skyhawk also slammed Cathy Carlat for not knowing about the Bond Committee's deliberations. Well, golly gee, neither did anyone else. The Bond Committee was an autonomous operation set up by the Council so that no one, including Council members, could influence its deliberations. Only when the Committee reported to the Council during April did anyone know that they had left out any project which would have led to relief of the truck traffic along Beardsley. Once Carlat learned of this omission she sprang into action. To scold her for that is similar to a town council in a small city in Connecticut which scolded its fire department because the department hadn't investigated its fire equipment four days before a specific fire -- as if the department knew four days in advance that the fire would happen!
Is Deer Valley being used by trucks as a short cut? Certainly, but it's illegal and Cincinnatus strongly suspects that the truck drivers (or their bosses) know that it is illegal but they figure they can save a few minutes anyway and, if they get caught and fined, well that's just another cost of doing business.
Finally, Cincinnatus is quite happy with the job he has of bringing truth to the community at large. Let's see, a "skyhawk" is a predator which preys on innocent, smaller birds which want nothing more than to be left alone and maybe bring a little joy to humans through their lilting songs. The sound a skyhawk makes is a high-pitched skreech.
Now, as to "activepeorian," you are mostly on target except that you indicate that the trucks have been around for years. Also true but see above and note that they really didn't become a problem until 2001 on and then have become a serious problem during the past three years. As recently as 18 months ago, the average daily count was between 700 and 800 whereas, today, its at least 1100 and climbing and, as noted by Mr. Wehbe, two operators (RMI and Rinker) have applied for permits to increase their operations in the riverbed. If approved and, as Mr. Wehbe noted, they always are, that will add roughly 425 truck trips a day to the mess along Beardsley, bringing the daily total to anywhere between 1525 and 1675 trips.
Also, you might be interested in knowing that the City is not waiting until after the bond election in November but has initiated a study group which is exploring all the possible routes. That group already met once and will hold a public meeting sometime during July.
Cincinnatus is happy to keep you informed so that you can make better judgments.
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rdg7359
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Posted: Thu Jun 26th, 2008 11:50 pm |
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edwards091791 wrote: I find it interesting that at the May 3 budget study session Cathy Carlat lobbied to add a $10 million “place holder” for the construction of the Ventana Lakes road to get the truck traffic off Beardsley road to the 2008/2009 annual budget. Just one week later Joe McCord is out gathering signatures for Mrs Carat's re-election campaign, interesting!
Was this a "handshake" promise, get it on the ballot and I will get you votes?
13 budget meetings and workshops were conducted over a six-month period without mention of the Truck Route, if Cathy was so concerned about this issue why hasnt she done anything for this? She has been in office for 4 years and we all know this issue goes back longer than that.
Concerned citizen - Peoria
This woman lost my vote back with the Wal-Mart fiasco. She was bought by Wal-Mart by telling the many citizens that were opposed to a 24 hour super Wal-Mart that "it was a done deal and there was nothing that could be done". That statement has always puzzled me in that if it were a done deal, why have 3 town hall meetings?
She should be worried about her re-election and perhaps she feels that Ventana Lakes will take her at her word......in return for their votes.
Sounds suspect to me!
Last edited on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 01:00 am by rdg7359
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activepeorian
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Posted: Tue Jun 17th, 2008 06:43 pm |
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Okay, I will throw my two cents into this fray.
I live south of Deer Valley, north of Rose Garden between 107th and 109th Ave. I have lived here for 10 years. As I have said many times before, we knew that the rock and gravel quarry was near us before we purchased our home. The homes south of Beardsley in Ventana Lakes were just being built. For several years, the trucks used Rose Garden until the people living along that road got it moved to it's present location.
As the area grew, housing tracts popping up everywhere, truck traffic did increase. That has been going on for at least eight years not in the last couple. So it is not a new subject. So in that I have to disagree with you Cincinnatus.
One of the problems I see is that this is a "No Win" situation. I have heard that several routes have been discussed. The problem with that is that no matter where you move that much traffic no one is going to be happy. Currently, I have heard Rose Garden again, Deer Valley, which would have to have a substantial bridge($$$$$) built in place as there is a huge cliff that has been seriously eroding since I moved here. By the way Skyhawk, the section of Deer Valley being mentioned is from the riverbed east. There is currently no road there until you get to 109th. I did however see several gravel trucks using Deer Valley from Lake Pleasant to 75th as a "cut through" to the 101 and I called the city. Just call truck enforcement if you see them "cutting through" again. Anyhow, Williams has been mentioned which would bring the truck traffic right by Zuni Hills Elementary. In my opinion that would be extremely dangerous for the children who's lives have just begun. My thoughts have included all truck traffic go north along the riverbed and go east or west on Happy Valley depending on their destination. But I doubt the plants would go along with this since it could take many trucks out of their way. I could go on and on.
The reality is that there is just not an immediate workable solution. This "mess" should have been discussed years ago but for whatever reason it has become a major issue during election time. Too little, too late, no one is going to be happy. I have heard one good opinion and that is to spread the trucks out among all roads so that no one community bears the brunt of this. But the question then would be how would all the trucks be sorted out. Logistics would be a big problem.
My concern is throwing money towards something that there is no answer for at this time. An adhoc committee should have been formed years ago but since that didn't happen, should be formed now. Realistic, viable solutions should be worked up, discussed, including a survey of the people living in the areas affected. Then and only then should money even be discussed. It's easy to throw a number out but with no solid ideas or solutions it has turned into a guessing game. No telling how long this would take but it is better than a expensive misstep that will probably become only a short term solution for a long term problem. Would anyone walk into a store and give the clerk some random amount of money for an item and walk away?
In these roller coaster economics days, don't be arbitrary with people's money. Let's just get real!!!
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skyhawk
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Posted: Tue Jun 17th, 2008 03:50 pm |
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Cincinnatus statements in black
6. The main problems have arisen since 2006 when the number of truck trips began their precipitous climb, reaching the numbers we have today.
Then why was the video shown by residents dated from 2001 forward?
The truth is that Cathy Carlat did not know that the Ventana Lakes project was left out of the bond issue recommendations until the Bond Committee submitted its report to the City Council, which didn't happen until mid April.
False. If it was true, certainly would not say much for her level of competency.
Problem has been ongoing for years, she has been aware for her entire time on council.
City of Surprise also knew of the problem and worked with residents to find a solution, while Carlat was still ignoring McCord’s pleas at the council meetings.
Deer Valley might be used to allow some of the trucks to transit to Lake Pleasant Parkway, but that is a big "might."
Proves you are quite aware of the facts. Deer Valley is already being used by trucks.
I could continue with each of your statements but there really is no value. Citizens now the truth.
Cincinnatus find a new job.
Last edited on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 03:51 pm by skyhawk
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Cincinnatus
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Posted: Mon Jun 16th, 2008 05:28 am |
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Anothervolunteer, meet Skyhawk and Edwards, since all three of you fit the category of those who move mouth without bothering to engage brain. Since you don't know the facts (not that that seems to bother you) here is a little history.
1. When Ventana Lakes was first built roughly 20 years ago, there were three mining operations going on in the Aqua Fria river bed. Three relatively small mining operations which were serviced by some 50 truck trips a day (a "truck trip" is defined as the movement on one truck in either direction so a truck would be counted once as it moved Westbound - empty - and counted again as it moved Eastbound - loaded - for a total of two truck trips). It stayed that way until roughly 2002 when the mining industry discovered that the Aqua Fria river bed was one of the richest, if not the richest, aggregate bed in the United States. The mining operators have estimated that they can mine the river bed at today's extraction rates for another 100 years before they finally have mined it out.
2. Because of a number of factors, too many to spell out here, the mining operations began to multiply. By 2005, they were up to 300 truck trips a day and have been climbing at an increasing rate ever since, topping out recently at a rough count of 1250 truck trips during one day. That is not a norm, but the City of Peoria has counted well above 1100 per day for an extended period (all of the above figures are public records which could be checked out by anyone who truly was interested in the facts -- unfortunately some people take the position of "My mind is made up; don't confuse me with the facts!)
3. Two mining operators (RMI and Rinker) recently filed applications with the County to increase their operations in the river bed. Those applications will be approved because they always are and, when they are in full swing that will add another 425 truck trips per day, bringing the daily total to somewhere between 1525 and 1675 truck trips per day.
4. The old timers who moved in from the early 1990's and for the next 12 years had no way of knowing what was going to happen. Yes, they probably knew there were mining operations because they could see the occasional truck passing along Beardsley but since most of the trucks moved during the early morning hours, before dawn, in order to get to work sites before the beginning of the work day (its the nature of the industry) most of the trucks were not noticed by those residents.
5. Ventana Lakes residents who bought after 2002 certainly had to be aware of the trucks (or should have) but, again, the bulk of the trips (as they are today) are before dawn so their visibility is lowered -- but the noxious fumes and other pollutants are not.
6. The main problems have arisen since 2006 when the number of truck trips began their precipitous climb, reaching the numbers we have today.
7. There isn't one chance in a million that Rose Garden will be turned into a truck route. The City has said this on numerous occasions but our three correspondents obviously don't pay attention to such facts, much preferring to reach their own conclusions without facts. Its easier that way. For one thing, it would cost way to much to rebuild Rose Garden from 107th Avenue to Lake Pleasant and the City is not about to budget that kind of money when it will be building still another road just for the trucks. Deer Valley might be used to allow some of the trucks to transit to Lake Pleasant Parkway, but that is a big "might." At this point it has not been ruled in nor has it been ruled out, but for anyone to say, flat out, that is will be used is another "leap of ignorance."
Cincinnatus really does wish that those people who feel the need to proclaim judgments would at least try to learn the facts before making statements. Cincinnatus realizes that that requires some intellectual effort but the correspondents might, thereby, actually shed some light on matters instead of just stirring up dust.
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Cincinnatus
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Posted: Mon Jun 16th, 2008 05:28 am |
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Anothervolunteer, meet Skyhawk and Edwards, since all three of you fit the category of those who move mouth without bothering to engage brain. Since you don't know the facts (not that that seems to bother you) here is a little history.
1. When Ventana Lakes was first built roughly 20 years ago, there were three mining operations going on in the Aqua Fria river bed. Three relatively small mining operations which were serviced by some 50 truck trips a day (a "truck trip" is defined as the movement on one truck in either direction so a truck would be counted once as it moved Westbound - empty - and counted again as it moved Eastbound - loaded - for a total of two truck trips). It stayed that way until roughly 2002 when the mining industry discovered that the Aqua Fria river bed was one of the richest, if not the richest, aggregate bed in the United States. The mining operators have estimated that they can mine the river bed at today's extraction rates for another 100 years before they finally have mined it out.
2. Because of a number of factors, too many to spell out here, the mining operations began to multiply. By 2005, they were up to 300 truck trips a day and have been climbing at an increasing rate ever since, topping out recently at a rough count of 1250 truck trips during one day. That is not a norm, but the City of Peoria has counted well above 1100 per day for an extended period (all of the above figures are public records which could be checked out by anyone who truly was interested in the facts -- unfortunately some people take the position of "My mind is made up; don't confuse me with the facts!)
3. Two mining operators (RMI and Rinker) recently filed applications with the County to increase their operations in the river bed. Those applications will be approved because they always are and, when they are in full swing that will add another 425 truck trips per day, bringing the daily total to somewhere between 1525 and 1675 truck trips per day.
4. The old timers who moved in from the early 1990's and for the next 12 years had no way of knowing what was going to happen. Yes, they probably knew there were mining operations because they could see the occasional truck passing along Beardsley but since most of the trucks moved during the early morning hours, before dawn, in order to get to work sites before the beginning of the work day (its the nature of the industry) most of the trucks were not noticed by those residents.
5. Ventana Lakes residents who bought after 2002 certainly had to be aware of the trucks (or should have) but, again, the bulk of the trips (as they are today) are before dawn so their visibility is lowered -- but the noxious fumes and other pollutants are not.
6. The main problems have arisen since 2006 when the number of truck trips began their precipitous climb, reaching the numbers we have today.
7. There isn't one chance in a million that Rose Garden will be turned into a truck route. The City has said this on numerous occasions but our three correspondents obviously don't pay attention to such facts, much preferring to reach their own conclusions without facts. Its easier that way. For one thing, it would cost way to much to rebuild Rose Garden from 107th Avenue to Lake Pleasant and the City is not about to budget that kind of money when it will be building still another road just for the trucks. Deer Valley might be used to allow some of the trucks to transit to Lake Pleasant Parkway, but that is a big "might." At this point it has not been ruled in nor has it been ruled out, but for anyone to say, flat out, that is will be used is another "leap of ignorance."
Cincinnatus really does wish that those people who feel the need to proclaim judgments would at least try to learn the facts before making statements. Cincinnatus realizes that that requires some intellectual effort but the correspondents might, thereby, actually shed some light on matters instead of just stirring up dust.
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anothervolunteer
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 08:21 pm |
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Cincinnatus
So you're only worried about the lives of those that live in Ventanna Lakes, who chose to move there knowing Beardsley was a truck route, but not concerned about those who live near Rose Garden or Deer Valley where the new truck route will probably be moved to?
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Cincinnatus
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 02:54 am |
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Edwards comments might make a little more sense if Edwards bothered to check the facts but, of course, that would require some intellectual effort and one is not always sure that Edwardsilk are capable of performing such tasks.
The truth is that Cathy Carlat did not know that the Ventana Lakes project was left out of the bond issue recommendations until the Bond Committee submitted its report to the City Council, which didn't happen until mid April. As soon as she learned of the omission, she acted to get it back in and, with the help of McCord and others, she convinced the Council to do just that (go back and watch the TV broadcasts of Council meetings for May and you will see for yourself that the Ventana Lakes people mounted a pretty good campaign to get their project included in the bond issue). And Cathy Carlat responded because, after all, Ventana Lakes is in her District. One wouldn't expect her to do otherwise.
As to the other comment, its too silly to respond to. Do you really think that the Ventana Lakes people whose lives or health are at stake give a "hoot and holler in Hell" about the actual dollars involved? Will the road cost $10 million, or $7million, or $12million? Does that matter? They just want the road built and the trucks off Beardsley so that they can resume a normal life. Were they suckered? They couldn't care less as long as the job is done.
Some people have their priorities totally screwed up!!!
Cincinnatus
Was there a silent handshake of "You get our project on the ballot and I will help you get elected?" Who knows? Who cares? If a project is as important as getting trucks off Beardsley is, with human lives at stake, responsible people would make a deal with the devil in order to bring it about. Would Edwardsilk let people die? Or suffer? People have because of the trucks. Maybe if Edwards lived next to Beardsley and had to use an oxygen tank in order to breathe he might feel differently. Or would he proclaim: "I am pure of heart and soul and, though it cost me my life, I will not compromise!" Sure, and if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn which I own and will sell to you at a bargain price. And pigs will fly.
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skyhawk
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 05:39 pm |
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Concerened Citizen you nailed it! Carlat stated at the study session if staff and council did not add this last minute to the bond, Ventana Lakes would not vote! Translation would not vote for her because she has ignored this issue for 4 years and during the entire budget session. If this was a concern and priority for her she would have added it to the bond in the beginning and asked the citizen committee to review. Which would have followed protocol and policy.
One minute the city is tightening the budget, next to appease a false re-election promise they are raising the bond amount. It was comical no one even knew how much to add for this issue all were throwing out numbers & guessing. Ok let’s just add 10 million that might cover it, might not, but will certainly appear like they tried.
Ridiculous and Ventana Lake residents bought it hook line and sinker!
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edwards091791
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 04:57 pm |
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I find it interesting that at the May 3 budget study session Cathy Carlat lobbied to add a $10 million “place holder” for the construction of the Ventana Lakes road to get the truck traffic off Beardsley road to the 2008/2009 annual budget. Just one week later Joe McCord is out gathering signatures for Mrs Carat's re-election campaign, interesting!
Was this a "handshake" promise, get it on the ballot and I will get you votes?
13 budget meetings and workshops were conducted over a six-month period without mention of the Truck Route, if Cathy was so concerned about this issue why hasnt she done anything for this? She has been in office for 4 years and we all know this issue goes back longer than that.
Concerned citizen - PeoriaLast edited on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 05:01 pm by edwards091791
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