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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 12:59 am |
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Carter did do things to fix it, and began to institute reforms in our energy policy, but your buddy Ronald Reagan reversed all of what he did first thing once he got in office. Just like W and The Big Dick Cheney, he, too, was in the pocket of the big oil boys.
And I don't know where you're getting your information, but the US Intelligence Estimate says Al Qaida has not only reconstituted itself, but is more powerful that pre 9/11. Worse yet, since Bush took office, terrorist attacks have increased five fold, and the number of terrorist themselves has almost tripled. You need to check into the reality based world my friend.
And as far as not being attacked, we shouldn't have been attacked in the first place. It was your boy W who ignored all of the warnings coming from the national security team. They knew well in advance of the possibility of attacks using planes, yet W did nothing. He stayed on vacation, did not warn a signle airport or airline of the very real potential danger, and then sat there looking like a dope reading My Pet Goat when the when outcome of his stupidity and incompetence came to fruition.
And you say I'm on drugs.
Typical republican. You won't man up and own the failure of your party. That's why folks like you will be in the minorty for a very long time.
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rks1
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 07:13 pm |
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Peoria Dad wrote:
Carter's warnings on energy, meanwhile, have all come true. And he adopted his economic woes from republicans Nixon and Ford who met their financial crisis through price fixing and Wip Inflation Now (WIN) buttons. The country never recoved until Clinton took office.
Carters "warnings"......he presided over the gas shortage....remember odd and even days? Remember waiting in line for gas? Why didn't he do anything about it? Just like GWB "warning" about the housing crisis. Nothing was done about it. So, in this example, if GWB FAILED, I guess that shows another one of Carters FAILURES.
And by the way rks1, I've never seen a Michael Moore movie. Unlike you, I live in the reality-based community.
Uh, yeah...whatever. Everything you say sounds like it came straight out of his FH9/11 "Propo-Mentary".
One more thing, the Clinton administration destroyed more terrorist training camps in his eight years than Bush did. All Bush managed to do was increase terrorism and terrorist activity world wide five fold. Quite a guy. And al Qaida is weaker than pre 9/11. How is that a 5-fold increase? GWB has decimated terrorist cells world-wide. You can't deny that. We have not had a terrorist attack in the US in 2600+ days. Yeah, he's quite a guy. By the way, how about that message from OBL's right-hand man? Sounds like they aren't too happy with your man BO. And to think, you libs thought the world was gonna give us nothing but unconditional love once your man got elected. Well, hi - welcome back to reality. I know this isn't a place you visit often, but I hope you enjoy yourself.
No wonder you're not man enough to own up to your failures. Why do you keep referring to everything as "your" failures? I'm honored to think that somehow you feel that I am an omnipotent being - that I personally have power over everything that goes on in the world. But really, I'm just a normal guy. Just a cog in the machine trying to scratch out a living while I'm here on this planet. Maybe your most recent acid trip has gone bad, but you aren't typing to the almighty. And quite frankly, I'm tired of wasting my time with someone who has very low comprehension skills and sees the world in such a narrow view. You aren't worth wasting the skin cells that come off my finger tips as I type this. So, with that said, goodbye, Peoria DUD. Hope you have a nice life in your little fantasy world.
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 07:14 pm by rks1
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rks1
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 06:52 pm |
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UPC Is For Suckers wrote: To borrow a phrase, Jesus you're stupid.
You blame the UAW but not the workers. Well if you take a closer look numb nuts, the UAW is made up of the workers.
The rest of your post is just more right wing drivel.
Interesting.....I blame the Union bosses, but Dud says I'm wrong because he thinks I'm blaming the workers. You say I'm wrong because I'm NOT blaming the workers. Typical liberals....twist everything around to make it seem to work in your favor.
So, like PDuddy, we can expect more left-wing drivel from you? This ought to be fun.
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gadfly
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:24 am |
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You think it could have been that plus the @@@@@@ bag comment you called me?
I think Joe McCord is going to be a wild card......
Have a good night AnnieR....I
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:27 am by gadfly
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UPC Is For Suckers
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:20 am |
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I never thought you did.
I'm logging out for the night. I have a lot of catching up to do.
Is the school board still f***ed up?
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:22 am by UPC Is For Suckers
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gadfly
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:19 am |
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| That's excellent...I'm starting out behind, but I never give up hope......
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gadfly
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:16 am |
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| I want to be clear I did not turn you in to the forum police. You know I took no offense for you advocating my demise. In fact, I rather respected your honesty. Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:16 am by gadfly
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UPC Is For Suckers
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:13 am |
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Actually I made a lot of brilliant comments and you know it.
In case you were really wondering, two things happened that took me away for a bit. First, I got kicked off for calling you names, even though you derserved it. Second, I have spent the last three months in Pennsylvania, or P A as the natives call it, campaigning for Barack Obama. I'm pretty sure that's going to annoy the Hannity-denier on board.
But you and Big Daddy should love me for it.
I started the scoreboard on another thread. My goodness sweetie, neither you nor Big Daddy know when to stop.
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:15 am by UPC Is For Suckers
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gadfly
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:09 am |
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| Will you start up the scoreboard again....I loved that...
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gadfly
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:06 am |
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| I'm so glad you're back! Even though you never contributed one intelligent comment to any conversation and doubt if you will in the future, I just really found you refreshing, if that makes sense....
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UPC Is For Suckers
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:01 am |
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Tsk, tsk Big Daddy, and here I was rooting for you.
Yes, gadfly, it's me. I see you're still a jackass. Happy?
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:58 am |
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It's Annie. Much to my dismay, the scoreboard has started again.
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:00 am by Peoria Dad
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gadfly
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:56 am |
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AnnieR
Is that you???I've missed you.....Where have you been????
Just for old time sake....call me a name like AnnieR can?
Did you lose AnnieR after you told me to "off" myself?
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UPC Is For Suckers
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:51 am |
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"Sean who?" my ass. You know exactly who he is, because your posts just repeat everything that comes out of his massive and uniformed pie hole. You can't even think for yourself.
And hi gadfly. I see you're still lowering our collective IQ with your idiotic musings. I'm baaaaaacccckkk! And I know you missed me.
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:51 am by UPC Is For Suckers
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:25 am |
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And gadfly wrote: Viet Nam = LBJ
Stagflation = Jimmy Carter Wonderful man terrible president tough economic times
Peoria Dad= Rose Colored Glasses
LBJ true, but he also ushered in the most significant civil rights legislation in history. It is by no means a push, but it was significant.
Carter's warnings on energy, meanwhile, have all come true. And he adopted his economic woes from republicans Nixon and Ford who met their financial crisis through price fixing and Wip Inflation Now (WIN) buttons. The country never recoved until Clinton took office.
Gadfly= know-nothing buffoon
And by the way rks1, I've never seen a Michael Moore movie. Unlike you, I live in the reality-based community.
One more thing, the Clinton administration destroyed more terrorist training camps in his eight years than Bush did. All Bush managed to do was increase terrorism and terrorist activity world wide five fold. Quite a guy.
No wonder you're not man enough to own up to your failures.
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:47 am by Peoria Dad
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UPC Is For Suckers
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:18 am |
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To borrow a phrase, Jesus you're stupid.
You blame the UAW but not the workers. Well if you take a closer look numb nuts, the UAW is made up of the workers.
The rest of your post is just more right wing drivel.
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:31 am by UPC Is For Suckers
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rks1
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 03:55 am |
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Peoria Dad wrote:
Well, now we know where you get your information: Sean Hannity. Guess what? He's a liar.
Sean who?
Clinton could have gotten OBL? A lie. While Clinton believe he was a threat, at the time OBL had committed no crime against the US or any of it's allies. By international law, we couldn't go after him. It's called obeying the law, remember? Remember Washington? We are a nation of laws, not of men? Probably not because republicans believe they're above the law. He certainly had the power to eliminate OBL's powerbase. And he didn't. HE FAILED.
And while we're talking about Clinton, let me remind you that everyone involved in the first attack on the WTC was arrested, tried, convicted and remain in solitary confinement at the toughest prision in the US. You can't say the same about your boy, who ignored warnings about an attack, but didn't want to come off vacation to stop it. He had 8 years to get OBL, and guess what? He failed. But Clinton was too busy vacationing with Monica to go after the rest of the terrorist network that set up those convicted of the bombing of the WTC. Clinton didn't FAIL with Monica, did he?
You can't seriously be blaming the workers for the piss poor decisions of the Big 3 executives. I never blamed the workers. Where did I write that? You need to go back to elementary school and try and pass your reading comprehension tests. I think you FAILED the first time around. Toyota offers the same salaries and benefits as the UAW to keep thier workers from organizing. The reason they do so well is because they produce a product that people want to buy. Product decisions are made at the top. The workers weren't the ones who decided to build big gas guzzlers, or to introduce cars no one wanted, or failed to bring the engineering they developed for their superior European cars to the US market. The workers also weren't he ones who gambled people's pensions on failed ideas and not adjusting to market condiditons. Nope, those decisons belong entirely to upper management. And again, I never said the workers did any of that. I said it was the LABOR UNIONS who, through their contracts, placed an undue burden on every car produced in Detroit. P.S. Until June of this year, when gas prices spiked at $4+ a gallon, there were plent of 'gas guzzlers' being sold and driven all over the US. I'm not saying that it's right that they made those vehicles, but that's what the public demanded. Soccer moms had to have the full sized Cadillac SUV to drive their two kids to the games on Saturdays......which leads us back to another topic you and I debated: the housing market. Everyone using their houses as ATM's, buying the toy haulers and the sky-high lifted dually trucks and the lipo and boob jobs for the wives and the tribal tattoos for the hubbies. Everyone was living large! No one was being a conservative. And why not? You are right, Dad. Government was spending big, so why not the little people? Circle of life...right?
And I never claimed that democrats never did anything wrong. When they did, I was man enough to own up to it. But history tells us that, with the exception of Ike, the best of times for this country -- especially for the middle class who are the backbone of this nation -- have come under democratic rule. Yeah, you pretty much elude to the fact that you think all the dems have to do is wave their magic wands and ALL WILL BE WELL WITH THE WORLD. Nancy Pelosi is Glenda - the Good Witch of the North and GWB is the Wicked Witch of the West and the flying monkees are Rove and Cheney and all the rest. Well then, BO must be the Wizard of Oz......just "nevermind the man behind the curtain!" Look, on the face of it, I have nothing against democrats. As long as they're more center than left, like Clinton was. I can probably live with that. But from reading your posts and responses, I get the feeling you're VERY far left. If that's the case, I really feel sorry for you, man.
Man up and own up to the failures of your party friend. Stop gulping the Hannity Kool Aide. Who is this Hannity you keep referring to?
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rks1
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 03:33 am |
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Joewrites4rights wrote: My 2 cents...
We are in this situation because BOTH Democrats and Republicans....ALL of them that we voted in were given the power (that NO elected official is worthy of) to run things whatever way THEY wanted to. They can't even run their own finances correctly, whether at a city, state, or federal level....look around. All these budgets are overdrawn. Why on earth would we expect these same people to have the skills necessary to manage "bailout" money.
And now THEY think they have the right to forcibly take OUR money and bailout someone else who has mismanaged their money? We should all think twice before we send in OUR tax money this next April. I think I will send it directly to my favorite charity, were I know it's going towards something useful. Joe Bernier
Thank you, Joe. You are 100% correct. Again, it's nice to read posts from people like you and gadfly that actually make some sense and are based in reality. I don't mind reading informative posts from people who vote democrat and hopefully have a lively but RESPECTFUL debate about those issues. That way, hopefully everyone learns something. I just can't stand the people who do nothing but spout far-left conspiracy theories (eg. Peoria Dad) and won't budge from their nonsensical ideas on how things actually work. They believe 100% whatever Michael Moore puts in front of them and then just regurgitate it like some Chatty Kathy doll. Unfortunately for me (and my mental well being), it's like a car wreck that you don't want to look at, but just can't stop yourself. I feel that people like Dad need help, but I forget that I'm not trained to give the kind of help they really need!
I've gone through my 5 steps of mourning over the election. I've stated on this board before, and I'll state it again - McCain wasn't my first choice as the republican representative in the presidential election. I look back on it now and realize that he ran a very poor campaign. And in as much as I doubt ANY republican could have beaten Obama, I still am not convinced that he (Obama) was the right choice, either. Right now, the guy scares me. I simply do not believe in the things that he seems to believe in. I truly hope that he'll be able to change my mind and make me feel that I can trust him over the next four years. Hell, I voted for Clinton in '92 - I plead temporary insanity on that one (well, it was actually because my girlfriend was voting for him. The insanity was actually dating her!). But, anything can happen. I'm willing to give the man a chance, but I'm going to reserve the right to call 'shenanigans' on anything I don't like about his policies.
gadfly, thank you for the 'Peoria Dad = rose colored glasses'......I was thinking the exact same thing before I read your post!
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gadfly
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 12:18 am |
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Viet Nam = LBJ
Stagflation = Jimmy Carter Wonderful man terrible president tough economic times
Peoria Dad= Rose Colored Glasses
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 11:34 pm |
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rks1 wrote: Dude, you are WAYY off the deep end. "All was roses under the Clinton administration". RIGHT. How about the fact that Clinton could have gotten OBL during his administration and DIDN'T. Yes, he was thought of as a threat back then as well. Not just in the past 8 years.
You really don't know that the whole reason that the automakers are in such dire straights is because of the UAW? It all boils down to them, my friend. Toyota employs thousands at it's US factories and I wouldn't call their wages "cheap labor". The advantage they do have is they don't belong to the UAW. That's why Detroit automakers wages are so high, because of labor contracts. Every car that comes off a Detroit assembly line has an additional $2k added in to the sticker, just to cover the benefits ordered by the UAW for it's union members.
Unbelieveable how you can think that democrats have never done anything even questionable in the history of the party. You are one of the true believers and showing you the real world is not going to change your mind.....so this back and forth is pointless. You've been brainwashed and are way beyond my help.
At least it looks like you aren't stuck on your "congressional democrats were completely powerless for the past 8 years" trip, any longer.
Well, now we know where you get your information: Sean Hannity. Guess what? He's a liar.
Clinton could have gotten OBL? A lie. While Clinton believe he was a threat, at the time OBL had committed no crime against the US or any of it's allies. By international law, we couldn't go after him. It's called obeying the law, remember? Remember Washington? We are a nation of laws, not of men? Probably not because republicans believe they're above the law.
And while we're talking about Clinton, let me remind you that everyone involved in the first attack on the WTC was arrested, tried, convicted and remain in solitary confinement at the toughest prision in the US. You can't say the same about your boy, who ignored warnings about an attack, but didn't want to come off vacation to stop it. He had 8 years to get OBL, and guess what? He failed.
You can't seriously be blaming the workers for the piss poor decisions of the Big 3 executives. Toyota offers the same salaries and benefits as the UAW to keep thier workers from organizing. The reason they do so well is because they produce a product that people want to buy. Product decisions are made at the top. The workers weren't the ones who decided to build big gas guzzlers, or to introduce cars no one wanted, or failed to bring the engineering they developed for their superior European cars to the US market. The workers also weren't he ones who gambled people's pensions on failed ideas and not adjusting to market condiditons. Nope, those decisons belong entirely to upper management.
And I never claimed that democrats never did anything wrong. When they did, I was man enough to own up to it. But history tells us that, with the exception of Ike, the best of times for this country -- especially for the middle class who are the backbone of this nation -- have come under democratic rule.
Man up and own up to the failures of your party friend. Stop gulping the Hannity Kool Aide.
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Joewrites4rights
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 10:02 pm |
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My 2 cents...
We are in this situation because BOTH Democrats and Republicans....ALL of them that we voted in were given the power (that NO elected official is worthy of) to run things whatever way THEY wanted to. They can't even run their own finances correctly, whether at a city, state, or federal level....look around. All these budgets are overdrawn. Why on earth would we expect these same people to have the skills necessary to manage "bailout" money.
And now THEY think they have the right to forcibly take OUR money and bailout someone else who has mismanaged their money? We should all think twice before we send in OUR tax money this next April. I think I will send it directly to my favorite charity, were I know it's going towards something useful. Joe Bernier
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rks1
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 09:15 pm |
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Peoria Dad wrote: rks1 wrote: Dad, I will give you one concession - the republicans certainly did lose sight of their core values over the past 8 years. They spent money like drunken democrats and let government grow out of control. Not the way Ronald Reagan would have done it, to be sure. And that's a big part of the reason we lost the White House this year. We have to regroup over the next 2-4 years and figure out how to get back to that Reagan model of conservatism. If we can get someone like Newt Gingrich to head the party, I think we'll do very well.
As far as you "illegal war" assertion, I have one question: do you belong to that looney Code Pink group?
And when you said the Bush administration was chasing business out of the country, you realize that it's because our corporate tax rate is too high, right? You understand that's the main reason companies are leaving? And MORE will leave if Obama either raises those taxes higher - or at a minimum, repeals the Bush tax cuts?
I know gadfly gave you more than enough to chew on, but put down your bong and clear your head before you come back and tell me to "own up" again.
No, I do not belong to code pink. What I am is an American who expects the president to obey the constitution, and to know that we are a nation of laws not men.
And the corporate tax rate is a myth. Just about all of Europe and Japan are higher. If you don't believe that, check out the front page of today's Wall Street Jounrnal.
The reason businesses have moved off shore is cheap labor. Don't think so? Look at the union bashing going on in the auto industry right now. We all know the auto industry is in the position it is in has nothing to do with the workers, but with lousy decisions made by top management, yet the workers are being blamed for this. The decisions they've made over the last 10 years would have been the same with or without a unionized workforce.
The other reason labor is cheap is because they don't have to pay for medical care for workers. Health care costs a lot more in the U.S. than in other industrialized countries, and adds a minimum of 17 percent on to the cost of US products.
rks1, if you could guarantee that Newt Gingrich would take over the GOP, every democrat in the nation would salute you. It would guarantee democratic control for an even longer time. What we're seeing now is the inevitable result and deathnell of Reaganomics. If Newt wants to continue to play that card, then the dems will simply point to everyone's 401K and ask, "Are you better off because of Reaganomics?"
And I'm finally glad you partially manned up and owned up. But it hasn't just been the last eight years, it's been the last 20 of the last 28 years (with the exception of the Clinton years, where peace and prosperity for all Americans was the norm).
Dude, you are WAYY off the deep end. "All was roses under the Clinton administration". RIGHT. How about the fact that Clinton could have gotten OBL during his administration and DIDN'T. Yes, he was thought of as a threat back then as well. Not just in the past 8 years.
You really don't know that the whole reason that the automakers are in such dire straights is because of the UAW? It all boils down to them, my friend. Toyota employs thousands at it's US factories and I wouldn't call their wages "cheap labor". The advantage they do have is they don't belong to the UAW. That's why Detroit automakers wages are so high, because of labor contracts. Every car that comes off a Detroit assembly line has an additional $2k added in to the sticker, just to cover the benefits ordered by the UAW for it's union members.
Unbelieveable how you can think that democrats have never done anything even questionable in the history of the party. You are one of the true believers and showing you the real world is not going to change your mind.....so this back and forth is pointless. You've been brainwashed and are way beyond my help.
At least it looks like you aren't stuck on your "congressional democrats were completely powerless for the past 8 years" trip, any longer.
Again, please - I BEG YOU FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR CHILDREN to put away your Michael Moore movies! Watching them has apparently stunted your growth, melted part of your brain (the part that isn't in the smokey haze of the cannibus) and imbedded his complete non-sense into your sub-conscious.
Last edited on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 09:20 pm by rks1
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 06:46 pm |
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rks1 wrote: clinging to the DNC talking points
You're one to talk. Like Hannity and Limbaugh, every single thing you posted can be found on the GOP's website.
Talk about drinking the Kool Aide...
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 06:43 pm |
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rks1 wrote: Dad, I will give you one concession - the republicans certainly did lose sight of their core values over the past 8 years. They spent money like drunken democrats and let government grow out of control. Not the way Ronald Reagan would have done it, to be sure. And that's a big part of the reason we lost the White House this year. We have to regroup over the next 2-4 years and figure out how to get back to that Reagan model of conservatism. If we can get someone like Newt Gingrich to head the party, I think we'll do very well.
As far as you "illegal war" assertion, I have one question: do you belong to that looney Code Pink group?
And when you said the Bush administration was chasing business out of the country, you realize that it's because our corporate tax rate is too high, right? You understand that's the main reason companies are leaving? And MORE will leave if Obama either raises those taxes higher - or at a minimum, repeals the Bush tax cuts?
I know gadfly gave you more than enough to chew on, but put down your bong and clear your head before you come back and tell me to "own up" again.
No, I do not belong to code pink. What I am is an American who expects the president to obey the constitution, and to know that we are a nation of laws not men.
And the corporate tax rate is a myth. Just about all of Europe and Japan are higher. If you don't believe that, check out the front page of today's Wall Street Jounrnal.
The reason businesses have moved off shore is cheap labor. Don't think so? Look at the union bashing going on in the auto industry right now. We all know the auto industry is in the position it is in has nothing to do with the workers, but with lousy decisions made by top management, yet the workers are being blamed for this. The decisions they've made over the last 10 years would have been the same with or without a unionized workforce.
The other reason labor is cheap is because they don't have to pay for medical care for workers. Health care costs a lot more in the U.S. than in other industrialized countries, and adds a minimum of 17 percent on to the cost of US products.
rks1, if you could guarantee that Newt Gingrich would take over the GOP, every democrat in the nation would salute you. It would guarantee democratic control for an even longer time. What we're seeing now is the inevitable result and deathnell of Reaganomics. If Newt wants to continue to play that card, then the dems will simply point to everyone's 401K and ask, "Are you better off because of Reaganomics?"
And I'm finally glad you partially manned up and owned up. But it hasn't just been the last eight years, it's been the last 20 of the last 28 years (with the exception of the Clinton years, where peace and prosperity for all Americans was the norm).
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 06:21 pm |
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gadfly wrote: Sorry, I disagree the minority party actually can't wield a lot of power, and in 2003, they had a lot more power than the Republican senators will wield in January 2009. The Senate makeup in 2003 was 52 Republicans and 48 Democrats. Do all 52 vote the same on every single vote? No....the lobbyists get to some of them .....and that is exactly what happened with this bill that the Bush administration tried to pass in 2003.....So, can you blame Bush for this Fannie Mae/Mac crisis? I don't think so. They recognized the problems and tried to get the regulations in place. He didn't have the votes and it died on the vine. Can you blame the Democrats - absolutely - they blocked the increased regulation at every turn.
Coming from an Obama supporter and haven't been so excited about a president since JFK......
You get exactly to my point. The republicans could not keep their own members in line. No one expects folks to march in lockstep, but a bill of this kind requires leadership and arm twisting. And Bush and the republican leadership did plenty of that on bills they thought were important. They clearly didn't feel that way about this bill, so they failed to do their job.
If the dems do the same under Obama, they will deserve their fate as well. We can only hope the learned, but if they haven't, I am confident Obama will be able to reign them in. Like you, I haven't been this excited for the start of a new administration since JFK.
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rks1
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 03:31 pm |
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Peoria Dad wrote: Can you say political postuing? That's all it is. If the republicans wanted to do something about it, then they should have. They didn't, so they failed.
You cannot escape, or dismiss, the one essential fact in all of this: the GOP held all the power, and it was their actions as a party that are at the root of this mess. That they didn't use thier power wisely, or caved to democratic wishes that they thought were bad policy, is just another example of thier monumental failure.
It is time they owned up to it.
Dad, I will give you one concession - the republicans certainly did lose sight of their core values over the past 8 years. They spent money like drunken democrats and let government grow out of control. Not the way Ronald Reagan would have done it, to be sure. And that's a big part of the reason we lost the White House this year. We have to regroup over the next 2-4 years and figure out how to get back to that Reagan model of conservatism. If we can get someone like Newt Gingrich to head the party, I think we'll do very well.
As far as you "illegal war" assertion, I have one question: do you belong to that looney Code Pink group?
And when you said the Bush administration was chasing business out of the country, you realize that it's because our corporate tax rate is too high, right? You understand that's the main reason companies are leaving? And MORE will leave if Obama either raises those taxes higher - or at a minimum, repeals the Bush tax cuts?
I know gadfly gave you more than enough to chew on, but put down your bong and clear your head before you come back and tell me to "own up" again.
Last edited on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 03:31 pm by rks1
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rks1
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 03:22 pm |
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gadfly, thank you very much for your clear (and CORRECT) addition to this topic. You posted exactly the points I was trying to get across to Peoria DUD, but have gotten so fed up with his over-the-top liberal bias, I couldn't put it into words the way you did.
You say you are an Obama supporter and I can respect that - your post shows that you are not a kool-aid drinker like Mr. DUD and seem like a person that knows how to have a lively debate on the topics without clinging to the DNC talking points. I certainly look forward to seeing more of your posts, in the future!
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gadfly
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 12:27 am |
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Sorry, I disagree the minority party actually can't wield a lot of power, and in 2003, they had a lot more power than the Republican senators will wield in January 2009. The Senate makeup in 2003 was 52 Republicans and 48 Democrats. Do all 52 vote the same on every single vote? No....the lobbyists get to some of them .....and that is exactly what happened with this bill that the Bush administration tried to pass in 2003.....So, can you blame Bush for this Fannie Mae/Mac crisis? I don't think so. They recognized the problems and tried to get the regulations in place. He didn't have the votes and it died on the vine. Can you blame the Democrats - absolutely - they blocked the increased regulation at every turn.
Coming from an Obama supporter and haven't been so excited about a president since JFK......
Last edited on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 04:01 pm by gadfly
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 11:56 pm |
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rks1 wrote: Jesus Christ you are DUMB!
You know NOTHING about history! Or current events, for that matter. What the hell does "being in the minority" have to do with what Frank could or could not do as Chairman of the Financial Services Committee? Again, put away the Michael Moore movies and GET A GRIP!
WOW......no wonder Obama got elected. Here is proof positive that you people have NO CLUE.
Listen you twit, Frank was in the minority party when all of the events that led to the current mess went down. Remember, this started after the republican take over of congress in 1996, which lasted until 2006. In other words, Barney Frank wasn't the committee chairman when the republicans sold our country down the toilet through massive deregulation and repeal of depression-era laws that protected the country from exactly what happened. Being in the minority party means he had no power to get his way. Pure and simple. The republicans held all the cards. If they didn't play them well, that's just another example of their failure
In addition to looking at a calendar, you might try logic sometime, too.
And by the way, Obama got elected because nincompoops like you put Bush in the White House, gave him majorities in the house and senate, and did nothing to make sure they controlled themselves.
The result: a country lessened in stature, wealth andsecurity, and now mired in debt. So much for conservative values.
Instead of trying to re-write history, man up, and own up, to your mistakes.
Last edited on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 12:00 am by Peoria Dad
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 11:49 pm |
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Can you say political postuing? That's all it is. If the republicans wanted to do something about it, then they should have. They didn't, so they failed.
You cannot escape, or dismiss, the one essential fact in all of this: the GOP held all the power, and it was their actions as a party that are at the root of this mess. That they didn't use thier power wisely, or caved to democratic wishes that they thought were bad policy, is just another example of thier monumental failure.
It is time they owned up to it.
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gadfly
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 09:41 pm |
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At least you are consistent Peoria Dad. Here is another article from the Washington Post writtrn in 2008. Now the Post and the New York Times are not conservative bastions, by any means, but it is very clear the Republicans wanted to do something about this.......and I detest Bush, but facts are facts...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/11/AR2008091102841.html
Last edited on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 10:31 pm by gadfly
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 09:22 pm |
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You're wrong, too.
Note the date: 2003. Frank and the entire democratic party could have opposed what was going on, or could have supported it, and it would have meant zero. The democrats had no influence and no say on what was being done. The republicans were held the White House and the majority in the house and senate and had total control.
Republicans can try and re-write history all they want, but every piece of deregulation and legislation that led to this mess happend on thier watch and before the democrats took control of congress in 2006.
And for the record, Fannie and Freddie were created to try and assist low and middle income people in owning thier own homes. What Frank and the dems were asking for was for them to allow Fannie and Freddie to do thier job, NOT go overboard.
This mess is wholly owned by the republicans and thier supporters.
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gadfly
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 07:48 pm |
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Sorry Peoria Dad, Barney and friends are not faultless at all in all of this. In fact, as much as I hate to say this, Bush and his administration foresaw the problems coming in Freddie Mae and Freddie Mac and were opposed by people like Mr Frank.
Key paragraph in 2003 NYT article regarding this:
Significant details must still be worked out before Congress can approve a bill. Among the groups denouncing the proposal today were the National Association of Home Builders and Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A2575AC0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
House Financial Services Committee
In September 2003, Frank, then the ranking Democrat on the Republican-led Financial Services Committee, opposed Bush administration proposals for transferring oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by creating an independent agency to supervise. The proposal would have moved oversight from Congress and the Department of Housing and Urban Development to the new agency. Frank stated in 2003, "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing."[30] Frank stated that the bill would potentially "[weaken] the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing".[31]
Last edited on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 08:49 pm by gadfly
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rks1
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 07:34 pm |
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Peoria Dad wrote: Wrong again my ignorant friend.
The GOP controlled the congress and senate when all of the deregulation measures passed. Barney Frank was in the minorty and had nothing to do with it. In the future, check the calendar before you stick you foot into your considerable, but not very smart, mouth.
And, yes, Bush DID start an illegal war. Even right wing kooks like Pat Buchanan, George Will and Joe Scarborough know that.
Man up, be honorable for once and own the failures of the republican party. In fact, just apologize for having decimated this great country and its people.
Jesus Christ you are DUMB!
You know NOTHING about history! Or current events, for that matter. What the hell does "being in the minority" have to do with what Frank could or could not do as Chairman of the Financial Services Committee? Again, put away the Michael Moore movies and GET A GRIP!
WOW......no wonder Obama got elected. Here is proof positive that you people have NO CLUE.
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 06:23 pm |
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Wrong again my ignorant friend.
The GOP controlled the congress and senate when all of the deregulation measures passed. Barney Frank was in the minorty and had nothing to do with it. In the future, check the calendar before you stick you foot into your considerable, but not very smart, mouth.
And, yes, Bush DID start an illegal war. Even right wing kooks like Pat Buchanan, George Will and Joe Scarborough know that.
Man up, be honorable for once and own the failures of the republican party. In fact, just apologize for having decimated this great country and its people.
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rks1
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 03:28 pm |
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Dear Peoria DUD,
Barney Frank is the Chairman of the Financial Services Committee. You think that made him powerless to do anything about this mess?
Nice try junior. Go back to school and try to learn something this time.
By the way, GWB did not start an "Illegal War". Wow, you really just exposed yourself as a typical, radical, left-wing NUT CASE. Put the Michael Moore DVD away and learn the FACTS - instead of the propaganda.
Stop back by when you have something useful to post.
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 12:14 am |
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rks1 wrote: NO IT WAS NOT! Geez, how about getting your news from somewhere else than Keith Olbermann?!
IT STARTED UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.
Nice try junior, but, like most dishonorable republicans, you left out one very important fact: the deregulation bonanza didn't start until after the corrupt republicans took over the house and senate in 1996.
It was the GOP, with crooks like Phil Gram, Dick Armey and Tom DeLay, that was in charge when the dergulation party began, it was during the GOP's control of congress that this started to go down hill. Because the GOP was in charge, Frank and Dodd were in the minority and had zero control over the wholesale destruction of this country and it's constitution by your boys. By the time the Dems took over, the horse was already out of the barn.
Man up, and own up to the fact that the person you elected president shredded the constitution; that the person you elected president started an illegal war; that the person you elected president and the people you elected to congress have driven industry from this nation and have us on the brink of another great depression. This all came on the GOPs watch, and as always it will take Democrats to clean up the mess left by republicans...or as you put it, dopes.
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rks1
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 11:44 pm |
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NO IT WAS NOT! Geez, how about getting your news from somewhere else than Keith Olbermann?!
IT STARTED UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.
You libs LOVE to throw that "deregulation" term around, don't you? You probably didn't even know what the word meant until you heard Chris Mathews spew it at you one night while you were transfixed to your tube.
Think what you want, but you're wrong. I'm done responding to dopes.............
Last edited on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 11:45 pm by rks1
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 08:31 pm |
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Wrong again rks1.
It was the GOP that was in charge when the dergulation party began, it was during the GOP's control of congress that this started to go down hill. Because the GOP was in charge, Frank and Dodd were in the minority and had zero control over the wholesale destruction of this country and it's constitution by your boys. By the time the Dems took over, the horse was already out of the barn.
If you want to talk intelligently about this, you seriously need another source other than the GOPs talking points.
Own up to the fact that the person you elected president shredded the constitution; that the person you elected president started an illegal war; that the person you elected president and the people you elected to congress have driven industry from this nation and have us on the brink of another great depression. This all came on the GOPs watch, and as always it will take Democrats to clean up the mess left by republicans.
But that's OK. Not only will we do that, we'll also stay in power for generations to come thanks to folks like you.
Be a man, not a coward, and own up to your party's failures.
Last edited on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 08:32 pm by Peoria Dad
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rks1
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 07:31 pm |
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Peoria Dad wrote: rks1 wrote: The dems didn't go on a de-regulation binge that allowed all of this to happen. That belongs to you and the reps, and if you were honorable, you would own your failure and move on.
And, given that the market finished significantly up today, could you once again explain how it's all based on consumer confidence?
No, but your buddies BARNEY FRANK and CHRIS DODD had the "FM's" approve housing loans to people who should not have gotten them. What part of that do you not understand? Why won't you dems own up to that?
Ok, so "all" was my error......but, let's not discount the fact that it is a big part of market fluctuations.
Now you're just repeating untrue GOP talking points. While Frank and Dodd did fight to have greater consideration given to lower income people for home loans, they did not ask for all the rules to be suspended. In fact, what Frank and Dodd had to ask to be done SHOULD have been done under Freddie and Fannie's contract with the government. It wasn't until the GOP suspended all the rules under CRA that things got messed up.
Once again, the GOP ought to own up to this, but the party, and members like you, are too cowardly to do so.
And Barney and Dodd were the over-seers and should have seen this coming - in fact, they probably DID see it coming. But they did NOTHING except to say "oh, these entities are going to be fine in the long run".
Once again, Barney ought to own up to this (and you should try and clear your mind so you can understand it a little clearer), but he (and apparently you) are too COWARDLY to do so!
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Peoria Dad
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Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 05:51 pm |
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rks1 wrote: The dems didn't go on a de-regulation binge that allowed all of this to happen. That belongs to you and the reps, and if you were honorable, you would own your failure and move on.
And, given that the market finished significantly up today, could you once again explain how it's all based on consumer confidence?
No, but your buddies BARNEY FRANK and CHRIS DODD had the "FM's" approve housing loans to people who should not have gotten them. What part of that do you not understand? Why won't you dems own up to that?
Ok, so "all" was my error......but, let's not discount the fact that it is a big part of market fluctuations.
Now you're just repeating untrue GOP talking points. While Frank and Dodd did fight to have greater consideration given to lower income people for home loans, they did not ask for all the rules to be suspended. In fact, what Frank and Dodd had to ask to be done SHOULD have been done under Freddie and Fannie's contract with the government. It wasn't until the GOP suspended all the rules under CRA that things got messed up.
Once again, the GOP ought to own up to this, but the party, and members like you, are too cowardly to do so.
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Uncle Fire
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Posted: Tue Nov 11th, 2008 11:27 pm |
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rks1 wrote: wow....okay I guess this really needs to be spelled out for you.
The majority of these loans were interest only for the first 5 years. Poor, middle class, whatever......they were given the keys to houses they would not be able to afford once the principle part of the loan kicked in and that's exactly what happened. Doesn't matter if you were middle-class. All that means is that they obtained a loan that, if they would have had to put down the traditional 20%, they would have never qualified. But through manipulation of the system and the sub-prime lending market (endorsed by FM/FM and our "pal" Barney Frank) they just had to sign their name to get the keys.
Now, your Avondale example is a good one. Those homes - like most across the country - had values that were WAY over inflated. So, what happens? These people get these loans and are told "oh, the market is strong - the value will only continue to increase". WRONG. The bubble burst and houses that, for example, were sold at $350k lets say, actually only had a value of maybe 1/2 that in some instances. But guess what? If you got an interest only, the bubble burst at the wrong time for you. You have to make the payment on the $350k that you signed the contract for, not the $150k that it's actually really worth.
Believe me, I'm from California and I know all about those home prices. I couldn't have bought there - well, maybe 15 years ago I could have. But I wasn't in a position to do so at the time. Then as the values inflated, I really couldn't afford to. Now I have a nice place here in AZ that I CAN afford and we're very happy.
Anyway, I'm straying off course. Does that help paint a clearer picture for you, Uncle?
I fully understand and knew all that.
BF an CD did not tell those borrowers to buy those houses (which they couldn't afford) with products that were bad to begin with - Interest only, Option ARMS (with Neg. Amort) and little or not down, and with no proof of income.
Borrowers and Lenders made bad decisions-- not the fault of the legislators. The fault of thoes who engaged in that bad behavior. If both borrowers AND lenders were being smart about things, we wouldn't have had these issues.
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rks1
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Posted: Tue Nov 11th, 2008 07:40 pm |
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wow....okay I guess this really needs to be spelled out for you.
The majority of these loans were interest only for the first 5 years. Poor, middle class, whatever......they were given the keys to houses they would not be able to afford once the principle part of the loan kicked in and that's exactly what happened. Doesn't matter if you were middle-class. All that means is that they obtained a loan that, if they would have had to put down the traditional 20%, they would have never qualified. But through manipulation of the system and the sub-prime lending market (endorsed by FM/FM and our "pal" Barney Frank) they just had to sign their name to get the keys.
Now, your Avondale example is a good one. Those homes - like most across the country - had values that were WAY over inflated. So, what happens? These people get these loans and are told "oh, the market is strong - the value will only continue to increase". WRONG. The bubble burst and houses that, for example, were sold at $350k lets say, actually only had a value of maybe 1/2 that in some instances. But guess what? If you got an interest only, the bubble burst at the wrong time for you. You have to make the payment on the $350k that you signed the contract for, not the $150k that it's actually really worth.
Believe me, I'm from California and I know all about those home prices. I couldn't have bought there - well, maybe 15 years ago I could have. But I wasn't in a position to do so at the time. Then as the values inflated, I really couldn't afford to. Now I have a nice place here in AZ that I CAN afford and we're very happy.
Anyway, I'm straying off course. Does that help paint a clearer picture for you, Uncle?
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Uncle Fire
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Posted: Tue Nov 11th, 2008 06:13 pm |
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rks1 wrote: But it was Dodd and Frank - back in the CLINTON years - who pressed Fan/Fred to open up the lending (drop the qualifying standards, otherwise known as NINJA loans) to help poor people get homes. This was what got the snowball rolling. So, a great deal of the responsibility lies with those two. Their hands are very dirty from this whole mess.
Then, as is normal practice, those loans got bundled (both good and bad) and sold to investors. Many were investors who believed Barney Frank when he said Fan & Fred were stable. Eventually, those bad loans overwhelmed the banks who bought them up..........and the rest is | | |