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pipeman
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Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2008 02:00 am |
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Wise beyond her years wrote: I still maintain Ed Guerra, who was representing the wishes his neighbors, is the most credible of all who have posted on this site.
You can maintain all you want. We that have been on this site, we that have lived in this area and have had to deal with the negative ramifications of the piss-poor decisions made by the queen bee and her stoolies (Ed and the gang) know more about Ed and his gang credibility than you could possibly wish you knew. That is why I said what you think does not matter. Their piss-poor directives have not effected you outright as they have us.
Me paranoid? NOPE... I am a very pleasant person until someone like you that does not know their butt from a hole in the ground when it comes to Ed, Gordon and the rest of the self-righteous thugs sits on here and tells those of us that have to deal with these people and the poor decisions they made are wrong about them. Yep, you sound like a plant to me... Are you going to threaten me with a 12 gauge, or are you going to threaten to tar and feather me and send me packing. The way you defend these people (without knowing them as you say) sure seems suspicious since Ed has only posted on this post in question once. So you got that Ed is right and he walks on water by that post right... Get a life lady and tell Eddie boy hello for me then tell him GOODBYE... is he still here? I am done wasting my time with you.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 07:52 pm |
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Wise,
You obviously do not know Ed G or his history of intimidation of people that oppose him. Perhaps you should look into this before throwing your almighty weight behind him. If you are truely as rightous as you claim then a second look at him, his supporters and the BLC is in order. A truely open mind will see that they are not as pure as you would like to believe and they would portray to the public. The BLC is nothing more than a bully group that is well entrenched in Sandie Smith's back pocket.
When the BLC says they represent their neighbors what they fail to tell you is that is is actually their neighbors that agree with them. I would dare say that there are more neighbors that are against them than for them. But as a result of their power with Sandie Smith they still get the majority of voice in Florence.
Look at their histiry of screw-ups. In any other organization they would have been fired and not given any future credibility. But we know about Sandie Smith's legacy of standing behnd mistakes. Heck she defended Stan G up until the evidence was presented. She commended him as a great public servant while he was stealing from us. I agree that the investigation should have gone a bit further.
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Wise beyond her years
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 07:42 pm |
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| I still maintain Ed Guerra, who was representing the wishes his neighbors, is the most credible of all who have posted on this site.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 07:38 pm |
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| Wise ... Practice what you are preaching
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Wise beyond her years
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 07:33 pm |
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pipeman wrote:
Wise beyond her years wrote: I was referred to this site from the Queen Creek blog and have read the string from beginning to end. Thank you Mr. Guerra for posting the truth to this forum, as it has been represented to me by numerous sources.
From an outsiders perspective, those who oppose this spot zoning appear well versed, eloquent, are immediate neighbors to the proposed zoning change and support both the BLC and Pinal County. Those who favor it are uninformed, combative, rude, (who knows where they're from) but they hate the BLC and rant endlessly about Pinal Countys' bias.
Sour grapes? I'm no real estate guru or political pundit but I have a gift for discernment of human motivation. I first recognized in grade school that some people are only happy when they are at the center of every debate and are willing to say or do anything to maintain the spotlight. This forum seems to highlight this prevalent human defect. Maybe if you nay-sayers learned to play nicely with others your opinions would be sought, even entertained. Henry Bolingbroke said it this way, "Pride defeats its own end, by bringing the man who seeks esteem and reverence into contempt."
Wow, you ahve got to be kidding us on here right? Ed speaking the truth on this forum. As you stated, you were referred here from somewhere else and have read from beginning to end, but you can not even fathom what you have not read, what you do not know and understand. You say you don't live in our area so in all restrospect, what you have to say does not matter. Bambi has always fought for the betterment of this community as a whole and I know in my heart of hearts she always will. You speak nicely of people who have threathened people with bodily harm, you stand up for these people and do not even know them, but then again being a newbie according to your post count, you are undoubtedly a plant for this group of hate mongers. The you come on here and spout off about God, get real. If you are a Godly person then you are going to hell for worshipping a false idol. The BLC members are not God or God like for that matter. They are a self-absorbed, self-righteous and self-serving bunch of people who are losing their queen bee. We then will make for darn sure that when the queen leaves the hive, the rest become useless (not that they are useful now or at anytime in the past or future). You then state that Bambi should not speak badly of Sandie, well sister you have got a rude awakening coming. Sandie was/is useless as our respresentative, the best thing she has done for this area is to finally walk away. She was to look out for the best interests of her peoiple and she failed us, failed us badly. Money was stolen under her watch (I still can not fathom how that is possible, that she had no idea, I think the investigator should have kept digging deeper to see what else he would uncover) she knew money was coming in and also knew that it was not going out to fix the roads. She seen the houses being built, but did not see anything getting fixed. GUILTY.... She let this group do her job and the job of the P&Z department. As stated, either you do not understand/know what is going on, or you are a plant. I would have to surmise that you are a plant. If this BLC were truly the despicable cast of characters you suggest they would not continue to prevail, time after time.
They prevailed because their queen bee allowed them to prevail. But that unethical authority will be coming to an end rather quickly. When a group of men threaten to shoot a person (a woman at that) or to tar and feather,to me makes them a despicable group of people.
I only meant that certain truths are eternal, and common to most faiths. One of these is that criticism and negativity aren't often productive while encouragement and optimism generally lead to success.
I live in Queen Creek (the forum from which I was referred) and as these issues effect my community I feel perfectly justified making comment. I also appreciate Bambi's contribution to and concern for her neighbors.
You are paranoid! What in the world are you talking about? A plant? Worshipping the BLC? A queen bee? Are you usually this unpleasant or did someone just spill your Cheerios this morning?
I restate my original point: Criticism and negativity are divisive and rarely bring success. Encouragement and hope tend to unite people and foster solutions.
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2 cents
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 06:15 pm |
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gk, I, very sincerely, apologize to you.
2 cents
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Bambi
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 04:19 pm |
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I came across this quote, in my readings this a.m., and thought it appropriate during this election year, to keep in mind as we evaluate those who we will empower to act on our behalf. Let's be very sure who we choose to act on our behalf for the next 4 years, cause that's a long time for either efficiency or incompetency to reign...our choice.
".............government must be an efficient and effective agent of a responsible citizenry; not the shelter of the incompetent and the corrupt."
Adlai Stevenson, 1945
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Bambi
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 02:15 pm |
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azsunshine wrote: I am confused--isn't STF SOUTH of the J curve? Why wasn't the dominio effect a concern then? Itsn't it spot zoning if its done on a case by case bases? What do you think STF owner is going to put next door since Bambi said it is opened zoned? Is the worst case scenerio coming? Was someone really rude to a 50 year resident? Why can't people make their point without being rude?
Good morning az. You are right. STF is south of the curve. Spot zoning is a case by case basis. Now you figured that out easy enough. Why can't the County figure that out, and enforce it? Because they are "allowing" it to happen. Look at the mixture of homes and business's along Hunt. And if Dale puts a gas station next to his Rest., like he said he may do, as the County gave him a spot zone of CB2 on a vacant lot, without an end user, which in all my years of real estate and working on rezone cases, I have never been able to secure that kind of zoning on a vacant lot, without end user plans and stipulations. So if Dale does put that gas station there, then the BLC can hold the next lot east designation as residential, just as they are doing on this one lot. It is so apparent to me as an ill thought out exercise, that I think someone needs to stop it, and it won't be the County. Who can we go to to stop this abuse of the law? We will all suffer via accidents, law suits, etc., if we don't find a way to stop this abuse by inexperienced novices deciding our future.
One of the biggest reasons we are in this trouble is because the BlC negotiated with the biggest white collar criminal around, Wolfswinkle, to go "his" way, and put in a J curve thru his land....now he's in control. There were other options, but no one wanted to view them. Cutting a deal with the Devil, on our behalf, with no input by those who were impacted by it, is a raw deal indeed.
I'll scan one of those petitions that shows the sigs of people's agreement to the curve....secured by BLC troops, waiting in front of the Circle k. and by "stopping" people on the road (Thompson) and by putting up sigs stations. Very few sigs. from local people, so the Curve was put in illegally, absent of a legitimized scan by the County to determine the legitimacy of those signatures. Yet they went all out to examine the petitions to form a new city.
Wolfswinkle got what he wanted.....ignorant people to heed his wishes....just like another Big Bad Wolf, did to the County a couple of years ago....Mr. Johnson. Ed and Gordon are being recognized by "Big Boys", way out of their league, and are being flattered by them, which ultimately results in acting in concert, to our chagrin.
And thank you fellow posters, for your support.
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Bambi
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 12:41 pm |
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gk wrote: Bambi,
If you payed for that ino about http://www.SanTanCity.info then yes indeed you did get taken.
I believe that Kristen has a completely different site than that. If you were given her name as the administrator then you were i given bogus info. I don't remember what the name of her site was but it WAS NOT SanTanCity.info
I was planning to attend but this weekend is turning out to be very busy, especially this evening and tommorow.
Yes, politics is a very divisve conversation and you are correct, we both need to avoid that topic.
I hope that you have a good turnout for your event and I have to go back out right now.
Gene. I will have to scan the information on this site. Since I don't know how, I will wait till I can get someone to do it for me. I didn't do the research. Experts did. You can decide for yourself. Personally, I don't think she was aware, but not sure. She has always been a kind person to me. I might as well scan all of it.....the threats, etc.
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pipeman
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 04:25 am |
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Wise beyond her years wrote: I was referred to this site from the Queen Creek blog and have read the string from beginning to end. Thank you Mr. Guerra for posting the truth to this forum, as it has been represented to me by numerous sources.
From an outsiders perspective, those who oppose this spot zoning appear well versed, eloquent, are immediate neighbors to the proposed zoning change and support both the BLC and Pinal County. Those who favor it are uninformed, combative, rude, (who knows where they're from) but they hate the BLC and rant endlessly about Pinal Countys' bias.
Sour grapes? I'm no real estate guru or political pundit but I have a gift for discernment of human motivation. I first recognized in grade school that some people are only happy when they are at the center of every debate and are willing to say or do anything to maintain the spotlight. This forum seems to highlight this prevalent human defect. Maybe if you nay-sayers learned to play nicely with others your opinions would be sought, even entertained. Henry Bolingbroke said it this way, "Pride defeats its own end, by bringing the man who seeks esteem and reverence into contempt."
Wow, you ahve got to be kidding us on here right? Ed speaking the truth on this forum. As you stated, you were referred here from somewhere else and have read from beginning to end, but you can not even fathom what you have not read, what you do not know and understand. You say you don't live in our area so in all restrospect, what you have to say does not matter. Bambi has always fought for the betterment of this community as a whole and I know in my heart of hearts she always will. You speak nicely of people who have threathened people with bodily harm, you stand up for these people and do not even know them, but then again being a newbie according to your post count, you are undoubtedly a plant for this group of hate mongers. The you come on here and spout off about God, get real. If you are a Godly person then you are going to hell for worshipping a false idol. The BLC members are not God or God like for that matter. They are a self-absorbed, self-righteous and self-serving bunch of people who are losing their queen bee. We then will make for darn sure that when the queen leaves the hive, the rest become useless (not that they are useful now or at anytime in the past or future). You then state that Bambi should not speak badly of Sandie, well sister you have got a rude awakening coming. Sandie was/is useless as our respresentative, the best thing she has done for this area is to finally walk away. She was to look out for the best interests of her peoiple and she failed us, failed us badly. Money was stolen under her watch (I still can not fathom how that is possible, that she had no idea, I think the investigator should have kept digging deeper to see what else he would uncover) she knew money was coming in and also knew that it was not going out to fix the roads. She seen the houses being built, but did not see anything getting fixed. GUILTY.... She let this group do her job and the job of the P&Z department. As stated, either you do not understand/know what is going on, or you are a plant. I would have to surmise that you are a plant. If this BLC were truly the despicable cast of characters you suggest they would not continue to prevail, time after time.
They prevailed because their queen bee allowed them to prevail. But that unethical authority will be coming to an end rather quickly. When a group of men threaten to shoot a person (a woman at that) or to tar and feather,to me makes them a despicable group of people.
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azsunshine
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 03:56 am |
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| I am confused--isn't STF SOUTH of the J curve? Why wasn't the dominio effect a concern then? Itsn't it spot zoning if its done on a case by case bases? What do you think STF owner is going to put next door since Bambi said it is opened zoned? Is the worst case scenerio coming? Was someone really rude to a 50 year resident? Why can't people make their point without being rude?
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gk
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 12:55 am |
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Bambi,
If you payed for that ino about http://www.SanTanCity.info then yes indeed you did get taken.
I believe that Kristen has a completely different site than that. If you were given her name as the administrator then you were i given bogus info. I don't remember what the name of her site was but it WAS NOT SanTanCity.info
I was planning to attend but this weekend is turning out to be very busy, especially this evening and tommorow.
Yes, politics is a very divisve conversation and you are correct, we both need to avoid that topic.
I hope that you have a good turnout for your event and I have to go back out right now.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 10:30 pm |
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Wise,
I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with a zoning dispute. Do you realize that there are people of many different religious beliefs, and non-beliefs, on this forum? This is not a thread about theology.
Bambi has been actively involved in the community for a long time. I have disagreed with her on many topics, but I've always respected her efforts to better the community in which she lives as sincere. To insinuate that her defense of a landowner seeking a rezone being tantamount to serving Satan is nutty.
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 09:25 pm |
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 Can I borrow some metamucil?Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 09:26 pm by Bambi
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Wise beyond her years
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 09:07 pm |
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I've seen and heard how you attack community leaders who are unable to hide their identity, I wouldn't even consider telling you my name. It is shameful the way you've slandered Supervisor Smith and diminished her service. Your reputation proceeds you. The Lord's Word says, "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. "
His Word is true. It says it is to used to correct and rebuke. I pointed out that God opposes the proud and humbles them. He also says he gives victory to the righteous.
We all live in glass houses, some have repented and been forgiven. When I post an encouraging word and you tear it down, I know you are not acting in behalf of the Lord, and so do you. So, what master do you serve?
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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.
Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 08:57 pm by Bambi
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 08:35 pm |
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Wise beyond her years wrote: Thank you, gk, for defending my right to express an opinion. It's not as if I made up the posts which convinced me of the two-faced motives of some posters on this site. I only read them and commented.
There is justice, if not in this world, in the next. In the meantime, there are only consequences. My comments are founded on opinions I formed from reading the posts on this forum, and, on the forum which directed me to this site for greater understanding (Same topic-Queen Creek Forums).
I think a certain crabby somebody must have forgotten to take their Metamucil today, or, is she like this everyday?
If you are the "Christian" you say you are, then reveal who you are please, and don't hide behind that screen name, as that could be considered a "deceptive" act, especially when you are throwing stones from your glass house. I am revealed. You know who I am. You have "discerned" my condition in a Christian like manner I see, and without any belittling or rude comments, So, who are you? Let's be truthful and allow me to gain greater understanding of you, please.
Two faced motives indeed.
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 08:29 pm |
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gk wrote: Bambi wrote:I understand very little of your last post. I can understand that.
IT just seems ironic to me that you are so intent on stopping people that are trying to do the same thing that you are. They are trying to be involved and do the best for their community in the best way that they see it. Why are you intent on stifling peoples voices. Whose voice am I stifling? I assume you are referring to Ed and Gordon? If so, how am I stifling their voices? I have asked to have input, but they ignore me and laugh and belittle me, as many have witnessed and witnessed Wed. night. They pass emails around to their members and constantly accuse me of being the friend of the "enemy"...the businessman, who is the "investor" "speculator" "resident" "Industry" If that's the enemy, then yes, I am friends with him and also represent them occassionally, as that is my profession. I want commerce here, but I want good, well planned, commerce locations, represented by the skills of trained land planners. I don't want the "case by case" basis of the BLC, deciding for us, along the Hunt Corridor, by two engineers. That has been my position and always has been. Ed believes that my input is a conflict of interest, so therefore should not be acknowledged, as stated in the public meeting in Queen Creek Thursday eve. Can I be a resident/realtor and still be concerned about the welfare of my community? Yes. Will I and Have I remained unbiased in this endeavor? Yes. Do I put my community "first" over profit? Yes. Have I refused buyer representation because of their intent for buying the property is not appropriate for our area (Stip CLubs, Pornography related business, etc.? Yes. Have I represented any sales to "known" investors, along the Hunt Ellsworth location? No. Do I feel that entire area there should be "masterplanned" for the good of the community? Yes. Do I feel only the BLC should represent the voice of the people, and only a few people, instead of the community? No. Because they are not inclusive, but selective of who they embrace, and are biased in their representation to the County, as a member of the Citizens Advisory Committee, as explained in Ed's post.
YOu are demanding that your voice be heard, why not them too. You have a difference of opinion on what is right for the area, but who is really right? Why are you any more "right" than anyone else? Why is your voice the only one to be heard. Well said Gene. That's my point. All voices should be heard. Maybe that not what you are saying, but that is what is implied in your previous posts.
The website you reference was not a BLC related website, as I happen to know who created it. Ed Guerra on behalf of Kristen Montgomery...I paid $4000. to get that information, so if those experts were wrong, then tell me now. What you have done is "speculate" on it. $4000. paid to Intellectual Property Attorneys, experts in the field. The person is never heard from anymore and I don't know if they even live here anymore. Will I tell you who it is......no! Why?
Because In your own words you say that you have been saving posts and information from that site sine 2005 , and that's a disturbingly long time to be concerned about something that most people have no clue about what it was. If you're concerned about your input on that site as Iamsublimating, I believe, I have no quarrel with you. But when you have people making remarks such that is a call for violence, you become worried. Here is a quoted from this person (BLC): .....talking about "two legged varmits"(me) and "city boys" she/he goes on to say ...".but a load of buckshot from a 12 guage is mighty persuasive." "There was a time we tarred and feathered these guys, and road them out of the County on a rail." Because of this comment, a member of the forum, not myself or anyone I know, contacted the Administrator with a complaint about that call for violence. Here is the complaint..."Hi Administrator, I appreciate your technical advise that you gave as follow up to the posters (varmit one)issues with the computer. But I was rather hoping that the Administrator's response would deal more with his call for violence. How was this post not a violation of what this site was set up for?" end of quote. Here was the Administrators (ED Guerra's) response to him/her. "That doesn't appear to me to be a threat."
I think You said you represented a client that was concerned about the J-curve area. Put into the simplest terms, that's a really poor place for commercial. You complain about Hunt Hwy and the traffic, just think what more commercial would add to that.
Personally I just believe that the people who live in the immediate area and are directly affected by "speculators" should have a lot more say than a "speculator (gambler)"Everyone should have a lot more to say about the use of that area. It effects us all." The only reason to include the speculator or developer, is to get what we all want at his expense." Also everyone should be able to contribute whatever they think is best to their immediate community without being put down and silenced. I agree.
Butting heads will not get things accomplished, but a clear understanding of peoples concerns and a respect for those concerns is a lot more civil, functional and proper than this dis-functional battle that is being waged.
This is all I will comment on this, but hopefully we can wage no more war against neighbors. Let boy george wage never ending war.......no need for communties to follow his example
Ok Genie. Hope you still show up for the hot dogs and hamburgers. As long as we don't talk politics, we get along, so I will stay mute.
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Wise beyond her years
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 07:49 pm |
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Thank you, gk, for defending my right to express an opinion. It's not as if I made up the posts which convinced me of the two-faced motives of some posters on this site. I only read them and commented.
There is justice, if not in this world, in the next. In the meantime, there are only consequences. My comments are founded on opinions I formed from reading the posts on this forum, and, on the forum which directed me to this site for greater understanding (Same topic-Queen Creek Forums).
I think a certain crabby somebody must have forgotten to take their Metamucil today, or, is she like this everyday?
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gk
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 07:30 pm |
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I understand very little of your last post.
IT just seems ironic to me that you are so intent on stopping people that are trying to do the same thing that you are. They are trying to be involved and do the best for their community in the best way that they see it. Why are you intent on stifling peoples voices.
YOu are demanding that your voice be heard, why not them too. You have a difference of opinion on what is right for the area, but who is really right? Why are you any more "right" than anyone else? Why is your voice the only one to be heard. Maybe that not what you are saying, but that is what is implied in your previous posts.
The website you reference was not a BLC related website, as I happen to know who created it. What you have done is "speculate" on it. The person is never heard from anymore and I don't know if they even live here anymore. Will I tell you who it is......no! Why?
Because In your own words you say that you have been saving posts and information from that site sine 2005 , and that's a disturbingly long time to be concerned about something that most people have no clue about what it was.
I think You said you represented a client that was concerned about the J-curve area. Put into the simplest terms, that's a really poor place for commercial. You complain about Hunt Hwy and the traffic, just think what more commercial would add to that.
Personally I just believe that the people who live in the immediate area and are directly affected by "speculators" should have a lot more say than a "speculator (gambler)" Also everyone should be able to contribute whatever they think is best to their immediate community without being put down and silenced.
Butting heads will not get things accomplished, but a clear understanding of peoples concerns and a respect for those concerns is a lot more civil, functional and proper than this dis-functional battle that is being waged.
This is all I will comment on this, but hopefully we can wage no more war against neighbors. Let boy george wage never ending war.......no need for communties to follow his example
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 06:57 pm |
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You're standing up for her because you state I belittled her? How? Her stating that because of her gift of discernment (having never met me) and to point out that I am uniformed, combative and rude is not belittling? To state that the others are informed, elequent and "righteous" is belittling to me, and contradictive of what Jesus would say, don't you think?....and to introduce "scripture from the Bible" to further her attack on me is Un Christ like in my book. And what is meant by "Don't I believe in Gods words" Coming from this person? What an example. I would never believe in God, period, if she was trying to convert me, as she was rude, attacking and suggestive that I am a lesser person than she is and that others are....that she can "discern" my personality on here, and make remarks accordingly, having never met me?
And you don't give a "rats ass" about speculators is ok to say? This "speculator" is an end user, not a speculator, and is someone who will bring services to the people......I understand why you hate them and why your friends hate them....you don't want those services, as stated by your leader, Gordon Brown, in that newspaper article. That's biased behavior for a group representing the COunty to have in making judgments for us.
She is not a land owner here. Your attack on me that I am only looking out for the investors and making a profit is a lie. I have sold to many residents in the San Tans...more than you know, yet you accuse me of an unfounded accusation.
I have not sold any of the properties in that area of Hunt, that Mr. Guerra accused me of doing at the meeting...his continuance to make these stories up, has just about destroyed my business. Many residents from here will be here at the event tonite....why not ask them. A couple of them have asked these BLC members to stop sending emails to them, that are defaming me and my business of real estate, and to stop making false accusations about me. This is their way of destroying my profession.
These are the things that irritate me, as it has been going on now for 10 years.
And your vile words on here to others in other posts, gk, is not belittling to the people you are addressing?
You wonder why the BlC keeps going and going and going? Because they are endowed by their "Creator" with the gifts of what they think is truth and consequence, and exercise it accordingly. If Pinal empowers someone, they are in control.
But wait till the new Supervisor enters the equation. The "Truth will set us Free."
You wonder why I am so passionate about this area? I live here. Because I have been attacked relentlessly by the BLC and their friends; because I have an opinion that differs from them, I am considered a nothing?. If you don't agree with them, you are ignored and harrassed. I wrote Mr. Brown a letter some time ago, asking him to join forces with me and my neighbors, to promote the well being of our area. Let's work together on this, so we can all get along and be on the same page. He never responded.
I think it's time for me to post the information about them that I have kept over the years.....let the people decide.
pretty nasty words indeed....by you and this friend of the BLC.
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gk
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 05:41 pm |
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Those are some pretty nasty words Bambi.
I don't think it serves anyone to try and belittle people who are only doing the exact same thing that you are doing.
The land owners, home owners of that area were looking out for their concerns because they live there. You are concerned with investors and the making of a big profit.
I don't give a rats ass about land speculators that live no where near the property they are trying to turn
Land speculation........win some , lose some. You know for a fact that if this kind of thing happened to them where they live thay would go ballistic. You talk a lot about the little guy, but look out for the big guy. You go out of your way in defense of outside interests that want to change the zoning anywhere they buy land.
Greed breeds more greed. There is never enough....it's alway more more more.
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Wise beyond her years
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 05:29 pm |
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First amendment rights might include the right to be rude and arrogant but successful people know that these traits don't serve to resolve problems only muddy the waters of progress.
As for your response concerning my gift of discernment, I am not surprised by your criticism. In fact, your willingness to attack me, someone you don't even know, only convinces me that my discernment is still reliable.
Proverbs 118:4 says, "Shouts of joy and victory resound in the tents of the righteous..." If this BLC were truly the despicable cast of characters you suggest they would not continue to prevail, time after time. You may not trust my ability to discern but don't you believe Gods Word?
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 04:26 pm |
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Wise beyond her years wrote: Bambi wrote:Thank you Mr. Guerra for posting the truth to this forum, as it has been represented to me by numerous sources. Your various sources are either BLC members or promoters, as you stated earlier that you are not a resident of this area. Your "truths' are built on heresay, as I interpret them.
Is it a coincidence that those who oppose this spot zoning you obviously did not read my post....we are and have been against spot zoning since the BLC started doing it along Hunt. We want all the lots on Hunt in that area, worked on by professional planners in determining the highest and best use...not novices are well versed, eloquent, immediate neighbors to the proposed zoning change the only well versed immediate neighbors I know of are supportive of it....immediate neighbors are the 300 footers....as Ed admitted, after he stated he was a 300 footer, then stated he wasn't a 300 footer in the same post.and supportive of both the BLC and Pinal County, while, those who favor it are uninformed, combative, rude, (who knows where they're from) but they hate the BLC and rant endlessly about Pinal Countys' bias and failures?
Some people are only happy when they are at the center of every decision and are willing to say or do anything to maintain the spotlight. The BlC. This forum highlights this prevalent human defect. I think the posters on this forum should be given credit for using their first amendment rights in expressing their views and opinions. Don't put them down for that. These people post because they are involved in their community.Maybe if you nay-sayers learned to play nicely are you using yourself as an example of playing nicely, as you make personal attacks on us in your post, stating we are uniformed, combative, rude and hatefulwith others your opinions would be held in higher regard. Henry Bolingbroke said it this way, "Pride defeats its own end, by bringing the man who seeks esteem and reverence into contempt."
BTW...wherever you got that "gift" for human discernment, you mentioned in your edited post, you might want to return it for a better "gift", that works, in this particular case. Come on over and read their emails from 05, and decide then whether this group is well versed, eloquent and unbiased. If you get your information from others and have not met these people, then how can you speak in the "first person" about the characters of these people you say are combative and of the characters of the BLC?
I've got work to do in setting up for the Optimist event tonite. Come on over and meet us. Let's test that "gift" of yours out.
Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 04:45 pm by Bambi
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Wise beyond her years
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 04:03 pm |
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I was referred to this site from the Queen Creek blog and have read the string from beginning to end. Thank you Mr. Guerra for posting the truth to this forum, as it has been represented to me by numerous sources.
From an outsiders perspective, those who oppose this spot zoning appear well versed, eloquent, are immediate neighbors to the proposed zoning change and support both the BLC and Pinal County. Those who favor it are uninformed, combative, rude, (who knows where they're from) but they hate the BLC and rant endlessly about Pinal Countys' bias.
Sour grapes? I'm no real estate guru or political pundit but I have a gift for discernment of human motivation. I first recognized in grade school that some people are only happy when they are at the center of every debate and are willing to say or do anything to maintain the spotlight. This forum seems to highlight this prevalent human defect. Maybe if you nay-sayers learned to play nicely with others your opinions would be sought, even entertained. Henry Bolingbroke said it this way, "Pride defeats its own end, by bringing the man who seeks esteem and reverence into contempt."
Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 04:16 pm by Wise beyond her years
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 03:03 pm |
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CrimeFighter wrote: Ed Guerra wrote: As a result of the Gateway Project, Pinal County and the neighborhoods came to an understanding that the land south of the J-curve will remain residential.
Whoa. You can't come to an understanding that another person's property will remain residential, that decision is to be made by the Board of Supervisors, not Pinal County planning staff and certainly not some random neighbors.
I'm in the town of QC, not Pinal, but I am disturbed by this quasi-governmental BLC. Who are these guys but a bunch of residents? Why are a couple of residents trying to dictate zoning for an entire region?
They were "placed" conveniently on the Pinal's Citizen Advisory Committee, by Pinal. Others asked to be included but were ignored. Unqualified, but because he was hanging out at the County all the time, he was give credibility by them to speak for them.
Let me read you a clip from an article written in the Newspaper in 2005, by Gordon Brown, on behalf of the Better Living Coalition........."but understand that the community I refer to is my community, and a community of "resident" landowners. ...."there are "heretics" in our SanTanFoothills community"....."Pinal County Supervisor Sandie Smith understands this community and the need for local control, even for communities such as ours, that do not require or want city services." "We are happy with County services" ......"do not want the undermining of the collective property rights of whole communities for the benefit of callous, destructive and often predatory absentee investors." "We are growing very weary of hearing what municipalities can regulate." We are NOT CITY MATERIAL."We know what we want for the future of our rural community."
Now in another article/or perhaps the same article....at the end, Gordon makes this statement: "Brown says he has talked informally with friends about starting up the idea of a city again."
Motivation? Fairness? as a representative of the County, demonstrated to "absentee owners?" by the language he used about them? Still wonder why they don't want to come out here and buy? Why they want to sue us?
I have saved all these conversations Gordon has had with the media, and there is your mentality that is chasing people away, including commercial and industrial land owners, who are also "absentee investors."
Has anyone checked to see if Gordon or Ed are running for Supervisor for our area?
Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 03:08 pm by Bambi
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 02:35 pm |
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Ed Guerra wrote: As a result of the Gateway Project, Pinal County and the neighborhoods came to an understanding that the land south of the J-curve will remain residential.
Whoa. You can't come to an understanding that another person's property will remain residential, that decision is to be made by the Board of Supervisors, not Pinal County planning staff and certainly not some random neighbors.
I'm in the town of QC, not Pinal, but I am disturbed by this quasi-governmental BLC. Who are these guys but a bunch of residents? Why are a couple of residents trying to dictate zoning for an entire region?
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JJohnson
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 12:58 pm |
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| This all has the sound and feeling of mafia tactics. I can't wait until this is all over and the BLC is put out of business. As Pipeman said we will be knocking on the door of the next Supervisor and holding them accountable for any voice that the BLC gets in the future. I will personally remind them every time that the BLC attempts to get a oice of all of the bad decisions that they have made in the past. My final question will be: "Do you want to be on record of supporting this BLC iniative knowing the hstory of mistakes that they have made in the past?"
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 12:46 pm |
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I have one more thing to add.......A Test Of Credibility...
Mr. Guerra: Please answer these questions truefully.
Were you or were you not the Administrator of a website called SanTanCity.info?
Did you register that site in your wife, Kristen Montgomery's name?
Was Ms. Montgomery aware of your acts?
Were you sent a cease and disist order from the intellectual property attorneys Quarles and Brady, for allowing posters (BLC members) to post threatening and damaging remarks about me and my business?
Please remember, before you answer these questions, that I have physical evidence that would demonstate your wife's involvment, although her letter states that this entire accusation is a lie, and that she had no involvment. I wonder if she knew you were using her name to run the site. Would you like me to produce the evedence for her on here? How about some of those threatening postings you allowed on that site? Should I post them too? A site used to defeat our incorporation out here to be a city, by allowing threats, and insults and other distorted incidents.
If you are going to represent the people, you better be above board with your actions and your statements.
Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 01:57 pm by Bambi
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 12:16 pm |
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Ed Guerra wrote: Bambi wrote:As I was at this meeting and am a ”300 footer" to this specific case, I will offer my thinking.
First, I am not literally a 300 footer (live within 300 ft of the property in question). But in cases where the property is low density, only the properties immediately next to that property would qualify; i.e. the properties themselves are roughly 400’ x 400’. I too was a special invite on behalf of several clients and the owners that own property along Hunt Hiway that are literally intimidated to come to these meetings because of the BLC. So, I, along with some of my other neighbors did receive personal invites as a courtesy by the land owner and his representative. And at Thursday’s meeting there were seven homeowners and their spouses that qualify within a 1/8 mile of that property. There were also two other landowners, who live in Chandler, but own vacant land directly across the street from this property and are very honest that they would like their properties to be rezoned as commercial, also. Tell them how you humiliated them when they spoke up stating one of them, has been out here for 50 years.
A bit of history, prior to the J-curve, Pinal County, the land owner of the property on the NE corner of Hunt and Ellsworth, Wolfswinkles's group and many of the local residents Who? had a public meeting at the QC Historical Society. Public to whom? I was there. At that time, that property was zoned residential. Then, as now, the neighbors were decidedly against rezoning any residential to commercial in this area. The traffic problems had begun at the off-set 4-way stop at Hunt Hwy and Ellsworth. Traffic was beginning to be crippled. The county did not have funds to purchase land to improve this intersection. The property owner made an offer to donate the necessary land for the J-curve, if he was allowed to rezone to commercial. So they cut a deal on the entire communities behalf, as it had to do with a major ingress and egress road, known as Hunt Hiway. And for what? A peice of land that serves little purpose but for people to sell cars on? What a deal. The neighborhood residents were split on this issue. Some felt that the J-curve would greatly help the traffic and offered a betterment to the community as a whole while others did not want a rezone to commercial. What about those of us who didn't want the J curve? ME for one. Check my vote. In the end, it was decided to make the sacrifice and allow commercial in exchange for the land donation to allow the J-curve. This is where it gets interesting.....they took petitions out to the roads and circle k"s, and had everyone and anyone sign the petitions. I have copies at my home. Come tonite and I will show you the people who signed and where they live....AJ, Phoenix, Mesa, etc. I told the powers that be about this at a meeting, and their answer was...."They meant well." Along with the rezone to commercial, this property (now known as the Gateway) had many stipulations. One stipulation is that the triangular piece of land south of the J-curve would remain undeveloped and would be used as a buffer with a berm and vegetation to protect and isolate the neighborhood. You created a buffer that serves as a place for people to Park and Swap. You were told that by many of us at the time. You have now admitted publicly that your intention was to "Isolate" the neighborhood, including the three lots that these people own that were located on Ellsworth frontage. We're they consulted while you had this secret meeting with Wolfswinkle? That's another Court action, just like San Tan Flats, thru his ignorance, you, thru the COunty's blessings, have taken away this property's value...not for you, and not for the owners, but what was to be for the common good. As a result of the Gateway Project, Pinal County and the neighborhoods came to an understanding that the land south of the J-curve will remain residential. That was your self-imposed understanding.
There are several concerns the neighborhood has about the current issue of the property on the SE corner Hunt and Ellsworth rezoning to commercial. This property is buried south of the J-curve and does not have direct access from Hunt Hwy. Another admit of guilt in taking the value away of this property, which was once located on Hunt, and is adjacent now to CB2, which you voted for based on your direct involvement thru the BLC, leaving the rest of us out, only to follow your directions. There is concern about the “domino effect” and the other nearby properties trying to rezone their properties as well. The land owner and his representative were clear that this would not be the case, but the opposite is obviously true when seeing two nearby landowner and their honesty about being present in hopes to change their zoning. Both the other land owners stated they bought their properties nearly 20 years ago. That means they paid almost nothing and could still make a very good return on their investment. I absolutely have nothing against trying to do the best you can on any investment, but rezoning should not be at the expense of a neighborhood and those property owners’ rights to enjoy their homes zoned the way they bought it. In fact, zoning is there to protect homeowners from just this type of occurrence.Well, you sure screwed up on that one with the San Tan Flats case. The only reason I voted for the STF, was because the BLC was directily involved in the negotiations, and told us, the people, that everything was ok. I never had a discussion with Dale Bell. The only reasons to change zoning in a neighborhood is if the neighborhood is in agreement or as mentioned earlier, when it meets a greater need of the community. You took that intrinsic value away from that site when you cut your deal with Wolfswinkle. That was your greater need.
This current issue was brought before the Town of Queen Creek in a town hall meeting just this past Wednesday. The town council unanimously voted to reject the petition for change of zoning. In fact, when looking at a close up of the actual neighborhood, it shows that a commercial zoned property would be infringing in a residential neighborhood and councilman Wooten even stated he sees things like this as very wrong and clearly should not be rezoned. This is called “spot rezoning” and is poor practice for any municipality to do. Now, this is the danger I was speaking about. Spot zoning is a poor practice, yet it has and is still being done on Hunt....case by case basis....that's why you have the mixture of homes and business on Hunt. These guys have been spot zoning, and I have been complaining about it (check my previous posts) since they started it. Yet, he's bringing it up on here like it's the announcement of a new policy? This was a very strong recommendation by town staff and 100% supported by council members and the mayor. They voted against the Flats too, yet you ignored their recommendations for that. What's changed?
As far as the noise from STF, this is an issue that I sincerely hope is soon resolved. Nope.....these guys and my clients, are now going to retain attorneys, and sue your group and the County. Here's another fine mess your ignorance has gotten us into. There are several cases in Maricopa County where establishments have had outdoor amplified music in residential neighborhoods (Cajun House in Scottsdale, Chuey’s in Ahwatukee), and in all cases, the establishment owners were mandated to take the music inside or cease the music. Pinal County is a young county and only recently experiencing tremendous growth. It is surely difficult to direct limited funds to all areas at once and this was a new issue for the county. This issue at STF could immediately be solved if the music is taken indoors. But this is a whole different issue, so I won’t go any deeper into that.
As I stated, I can appreciate someone trying to do the best they can on an investment, we would all do that. And the landowners who bought 20 years ago can still do well, but there will come a time when greed will diminish their returns. They say they have no offers coming in from anyone wanting to buy residential, but that’s because they are not priced right. Nobody is paying $750,000 for roughly 3.6 acres anywhere in this area for residential. The current property owner bought this land in 2005 from a gentleman that paid ~$130,000 a few years earlier. This new land owner paid $620,000. Wow! That’s $200,000 over any land that has sold residential in this area. I sold a 3 acre property in the San Tans that same year, without the location and amenities he has (water, power) for $476,000. This subject property is almost 4 acres. I sold a 5 acre property during this time off of Gary Rd. for $1 million dollars. It's all on record thru the MLS, to verify. So, now not only is he a self-appointed spokesman for the County, but now he's a real estate appraiser.
This land has changed hands several times state how many please and each time they have gone for rezone to commercial that should tell you something about highest and best use. and each time has been rejected. That's why we have Hunt all screwed up and done in patch work. That's why we have few neighborhood services out here. Poor judgment. The other nearby land owners still can make a healthy profit, but this new guy clearly did not do due diligence before making such an extravagant purchase.Once again, using the wrong information about how investors and venture capitalist operate. I don’t know many people who have the kind of money to speculate on land, but it may just be a win some lose some case. He said he was an end user; why call him a speculator....use the right terms when you are destroying someone's character. Many would like to buy commercial here, only they won't bring their money down here because of people like you, Mr. Guerra, who think they know real estate and community needs, when it's only selfishness that is the motivator, and they see it. I work with these types of guys daily...it's my vocation; the same one you have been attempting to destroy.
The property itself is tucked away from the mainstream J-curve traffic and is 3 properties from my home. So it is not situated much different in what I feel is a very nice, rural, equestrian neighborhood. If priced right for residential, these properties will sell. Let me ask you this then Mr. Guerra; Hypothetically; would you purchase that property next door to San Tan Flats, assuming it's priced right according to residential prices, and build a residence there for yourself. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. right?
Ed
Let me add to this about something I just recently discovered thru my inside information from some County personnel, who dislike these guys. Gordon Brown comes down to that County almost every day, and entrenches himself into the employees and Department Heads.....He is bringing "venom" up there, stating falsehoods and embellishments about what happens down here. He stirs the pot, and adds to it, causing ill feelings from them towards us. This has to stop.
These guys are not working for us, the people, for the greater good, and that's apparent in their discourse......they are working for themselves.
Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 02:37 pm by Bambi
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pipeman
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 04:26 am |
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As far as the noise from STF, this is an issue that I sincerely hope is soon resolved. There are several cases in Maricopa County where establishments have had outdoor amplified music in residential neighborhoods (Cajun House in Scottsdale, Chuey’s in Ahwatukee), and in all cases, the establishment owners were mandated to take the music inside or cease the music. Pinal County is a young county and only recently experiencing tremendous growth. It is surely difficult to direct limited funds to all areas at once and this was a new issue for the county. This issue at STF could immediately be solved if the music is taken indoors. But this is a whole different issue, so I won’t go any deeper into that. Well which way is it Ed? Is it the noise or is it the dancing? As far as I am concerned, the county has went to STF when music was playing only to find out he was not in violation of any noise ordinance as the decimals were not high enough. They could not get him there, so they decided to pull a rabbit out of their butts and get him on a joke law, "no dance halls" Come on already, you people (BLC) gave this place your blessings with your queen Sandie. You people are making this area the butt end of every joke nation wide. Is it your ploy to keep everyone laughing at us so no more people want to move in and you get to keep the area just as you people would like to keep it. Your queen is walking away on her own as she knows she was going to get her arse removed this time around for her piss-poor leadership, her failing us with infastructure, her failing us by allowing Stan to do what he did (this was on her watch so to me she is just as guilty, it was her job to see the money used for roads), by allowing certain people in this area to dictate the way things are going to be run around here (sound familiar?). Just know that I as well as many more people around here, will be right up the next Supervisors arse to make sure that you and those you run with, will not have the opportunity to continue us down this road you have brought us down. Are you ready for the change? Ed, I have one more question for you, "are you still here?"
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starleen
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 04:06 am |
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Wow, a major intersection (Ellsworth and Hunt) that is a primary viaduct between Johnson Ranch and "civilization" and after all these years, there is still conflict. Lots to think about, given the fissure issues and QC town interests. But why is this a surprise at this time, there's no new factors. I reject funding excuses and I seek leadership.
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Ed Guerra
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Posted: Sat Feb 9th, 2008 03:51 am |
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As I was at this meeting and am a ”300 footer" to this specific case, I will offer my thinking.
First, I am not literally a 300 footer (live within 300 ft of the property in question). But in cases where the property is low density, only the properties immediately next to that property would qualify; i.e. the properties themselves are roughly 400’ x 400’. So, I, along with some of my other neighbors did receive personal invites as a courtesy by the land owner and his representative. And at Thursday’s meeting there were seven homeowners and their spouses that qualify within a 1/8 mile of that property. There were also two other landowners, who live in Chandler, but own vacant land directly across the street from this property and are very honest that they would like their properties to be rezoned as commercial, also.
A bit of history, prior to the J-curve, Pinal County, the land owner of the property on the NE corner of Hunt and Ellsworth, and many of the local residents had a public meeting at the QC Historical Society. I was there. At that time, that property was zoned residential. Then, as now, the neighbors were decidedly against rezoning any residential to commercial in this area. The traffic problems had begun at the off-set 4-way stop at Hunt Hwy and Ellsworth. Traffic was beginning to be crippled. The county did not have funds to purchase land to improve this intersection. The property owner made an offer to donate the necessary land for the J-curve, if he was allowed to rezone to commercial. The neighborhood residents were split on this issue. Some felt that the J-curve would greatly help the traffic and offered a betterment to the community as a whole while others did not want a rezone to commercial. In the end, it was decided to make the sacrifice and allow commercial in exchange for the land donation to allow the J-curve. Along with the rezone to commercial, this property (now known as the Gateway) had many stipulations. One stipulation is that the triangular piece of land south of the J-curve would remain undeveloped and would be used as a buffer with a berm and vegetation to protect and isolate the neighborhood. As a result of the Gateway Project, Pinal County and the neighborhoods came to an understanding that the land south of the J-curve will remain residential.
There are several concerns the neighborhood has about the current issue of the property on the SE corner Hunt and Ellsworth rezoning to commercial. This property is buried south of the J-curve and does not have direct access from Hunt Hwy. There is concern about the “domino effect” and the other nearby properties trying to rezone their properties as well. The land owner and his representative were clear that this would not be the case, but the opposite is obviously true when seeing two nearby landowner and their honesty about being present in hopes to change their zoning. Both the other land owners stated they bought their properties nearly 20 years ago. That means they paid almost nothing and could still make a very good return on their investment. I absolutely have nothing against trying to do the best you can on any investment, but rezoning should not be at the expense of a neighborhood and those property owners’ rights to enjoy their homes zoned the way they bought it. In fact, zoning is there to protect homeowners from just this type of occurrence. The only reasons to change zoning in a neighborhood is if the neighborhood is in agreement or as mentioned earlier, when it meets a greater need of the community.
This current issue was brought before the Town of Queen Creek in a town hall meeting just this past Wednesday. The town council unanimously voted to reject the petition for change of zoning. In fact, when looking at a close up of the actual neighborhood, it shows that a commercial zoned property would be infringing in a residential neighborhood and councilman Wooten even stated he sees things like this as very wrong and clearly should not be rezoned. This is called “spot rezoning” and is poor practice for any municipality to do. This was a very strong recommendation by town staff and 100% supported by council members and the mayor.
As far as the noise from STF, this is an issue that I sincerely hope is soon resolved. There are several cases in Maricopa County where establishments have had outdoor amplified music in residential neighborhoods (Cajun House in Scottsdale, Chuey’s in Ahwatukee), and in all cases, the establishment owners were mandated to take the music inside or cease the music. Pinal County is a young county and only recently experiencing tremendous growth. It is surely difficult to direct limited funds to all areas at once and this was a new issue for the county. This issue at STF could immediately be solved if the music is taken indoors. But this is a whole different issue, so I won’t go any deeper into that.
As I stated, I can appreciate someone trying to do the best they can on an investment, we would all do that. And the landowners who bought 20 years ago can still do well, but there will come a time when greed will diminish their returns. They say they have no offers coming in from anyone wanting to buy residential, but that’s because they are not priced right. Nobody is paying $750,000 for roughly 3.6 acres anywhere in this area for residential. The current property owner bought this land in 2005 from a gentleman that paid ~$130,000 a few years earlier. This new land owner paid $620,000. Wow! That’s $200,000 over any land that has sold residential in this area.
This land has changed hands several times and each time they have gone for rezone to commercial and each time has been rejected. The other nearby land owners still can make a healthy profit, but this new guy clearly did not do due diligence before making such an extravagant purchase. I don’t know many people who have the kind of money to speculate on land, but it may just be a win some lose some case.
The property itself is tucked away from the mainstream J-curve traffic and is 3 properties from my home. So it is not situated much different in what I feel is a very nice, rural, equestrian neighborhood. If priced right for residential, these properties will sell.
Ed
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Bambi
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Posted: Fri Feb 8th, 2008 02:28 pm |
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They have created the design from which they work from. Everything that is east of Hunt, they (the BLC) will take and decide on a case by case basis. Anything west of the Flats, is residential. They have decided that....not us. And yes, stipulations can be put on there, as he explained to those there last night.
The applicants rep. is a land planner. He is trained in this type of thing, yet they underminded everything he said. What a travesty of justice to have ignorant people representing all of us, and we don't have a say about it.
Last edited on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 02:28 pm by Bambi
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azsunshine
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