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2 cents
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 03:46 am |
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Standing Room Only or in the case of STF, Dancing Room Only.
Perhaps you are too young. SRO is an old term, early part of the 20th century, perhaps before.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 12:04 am |
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| Maybe I am too old for some of this blog stuff. But what is SRO and DRO?
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2 cents
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Posted: Sun May 11th, 2008 04:15 pm |
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Haven't heard any voice about the celebratory dancing at STF yet, guess I'll take it that everyone had a really great time and that all are taking it easy and savoring the lasting memories. I'l bet it was SRO, or DRO, for those that were lucky enough to get in! Wish I could have been there.
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Dublin Girl
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 10:56 pm |
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anne.reed wrote: I have a couple of comments for Judge O'Neill and for those of you who rally around the arrogant Dale Bell:
1. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a good hamburger and a tall brew close to home is more important than integrity or the property rights of their neighbors (to some posters).
2. Jeff's right on target. This isn't over. Winning a battle does not insure winning the war. I'd say Dale's real troubles just began!
Regards,
Anne
WOW, someone sounds just a little bitter, you know a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down!Last edited on Fri May 9th, 2008 10:58 pm by Dublin Girl
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ajBookchin
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 04:31 pm |
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I just now heard a guy named Neal Boortz talk about the San Tan Flat issue - he does a radio program on WSB (AM-750) of Atlanta!!!
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JJohnson
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 03:24 pm |
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Anne,
Don't shoot the messenger. Reality and truth hurts sometimes.
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anne.reed
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 12:03 am |
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JJohnson wrote:
anne.reed wrote: JJ:
For someone who hasn't been around long and bases his opinions on second hand information and innuendo, you sure have some strong (if not outrageous) ideas about historical facts for this area.
Regards,
Anne
Anne,
One does not need to even live here to understand what is going on. It is all well documented in the media. I have eaten there once. Nice place but not really my cup of tea. I just think that you guys got beat at your own game and you don't like the tables turned on you. Live with it now or move.
You're such a delight, JJ ...
"Advertisements contain the only truths to be relied on in a newspaper".
Thomas Jefferson
Last edited on Fri May 9th, 2008 12:17 am by anne.reed
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JJohnson
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 06:22 pm |
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bigwavedave wrote: Logic obviously has no business in this discussion!
I guess you are right ... Silly me
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bigwavedave
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 05:56 pm |
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| Logic obviously has no business in this discussion!
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JJohnson
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 07:55 pm |
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JJohnson wrote: gk wrote: The issue as it stands is the same..........the noise coming from his bar disturbs the neighbors. If your nighbors disturbed you with noise you would be calling also
Not if I had agreed to them moving in and knowing that they would be making noise. This neighbor attended the zoning meetings, spoke with Dale personally, and saw the plans (with a stage and microphone). Despite all of this they did not oppose the zoning change or Dale's plans. The time for complaints and protests has passed. Now is the time to figure out how to deal with the issues best. They made a mistake. No question about it. They should have done things differently in the beginning. But it is too late now. You are trying to close the barn doors after the horses are out. Now is the time to get the whole Hunt corridor zoned and the rules put in place to avoid these issues in the future.
I do find it interesting that they do not have a decent response to my logical arguement.
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gk
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 02:56 am |
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Last edited on Tue May 6th, 2008 03:02 am by gk
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bigwavedave
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 10:47 pm |
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anne.reed wrote: "In Germany, they came first for the Communists,
But I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists,
But I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews,
But I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . .
But by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Martin Niemoller
"A kingdom founded on injustice never lasts".
Lucius Annaeus Seneca Sorry Anne, but if you think this little issue comes close to what you wrote above, this is a truly pathetic attempt to garner sympathy, and insults the intelligence of us common people. This is like comparing apples to the La Brea Tar Pits, which is where your logic seems to reside. While a kingdom founded on injustice never lasts, the court system decided what was justice and what was not. Quit your sniveling and move on with your life. If you feel you were injured, file a civil suit using you own money and time. If you don't, we don't want to hear about it anymore.
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anne.reed
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 10:40 pm |
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Dear Ted:
What injustices do you speak of in Johnson Ranch and Copper Basin. Perhaps I can help.
Regards,
Anne
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Ted
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 10:34 pm |
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I can see from the posts of people like Anne that they are under the impression that they are alone in seeing injustice in Pinal County, and alone in seeing deals by developers undone. Not so. You are not alone. You are just like the rest of us now.
People who bought homes in Copper Basin and Johnson Ranch were given many promises of what the community would eventually turn into. As time went on, it became clear that those promises would not be coming true. And these were matters far more important and distruptive than a single restaurant in a lightly populated area pumping out a little music. If you are not aware of these issues you really need to understand it better. These people organized and went to the county (especially in Copper Basin) and they were essentially blown off by Sandie Smith. She never showed any interest in their concerns. But when the rural community has a problem with a developed business doing something different than what the community thought? Well Sandie Smith and Pinal County went all full force and committed political suicide with this amazingly silly dance ban. Any sympathy for STF surrounds the fact that one developer is being attacked while other larger developers who did much more serious things were being ignored.
Anne's sob post with the poem about being mistreated in Nazi Germany makes me think that the STF ruling makes them different and stand out. You could not be more wrong Anne. Now you are just like he rest of us. The real question Anne, is why were you not sympathetic to the people of Copper Basin 3 years ago.
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anne.reed
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 09:35 pm |
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"In Germany, they came first for the Communists,
But I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists,
But I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews,
But I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . .
But by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Martin Niemoller
"A kingdom founded on injustice never lasts".
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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bigwavedave
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 06:28 pm |
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| IMHO, this is strictly a case of old cronies who have always gotten their way suddenly got slapped in the face in public, and started screaming foul. The tables got turned, you lost......get over it and move on. More than likely you will move on to a different tactic to shut him down because the only thing worse than a bad winner is a bad loser!
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Ted
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 03:50 pm |
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Editorial from the EV Tribune:
Stop the madness, start the dancing
Comments 0| [url=javascript:recommendReview('Article25115498')]Recommend [/url]0
Tribune Editorial
Pinal County's harassment of the San Tan Flat steakhouse needs to come to an immediate stop.
San Tan Flat dispute heads to courthouse
Last week, Superior Court Judge William O'Neil saw through Pinal County's farce of claiming the restaurant was an illegal outdoor dance hall simply because some customers shuffle their feet while listening to perfectly legal country songs on the courtyard patio. Dragging out a 60-year-old - and most likely unconstitutional - ordinance in an attempt to shut down the music has made Pinal County a laughingstock across the country.
But this blatant abuse of government power has serious consequences, as the county threatened to put father-and-son owners Dale and Spencer Bell out of business. O'Neil grasped the implications so clearly he ruled against Pinal County directly from his bench instead of waiting the usual days or weeks to issue an opinion in writing.
"When a local government restricts freedoms, it's a dangerous thing," the judge said.
Pinal County leveled huge fines under this dance hall rubric after county officials seriously limited San Tan Flat's road access and signage, and repeatedly sent inspectors to check everything including the firewood and noise levels. Two years of oppression have come at the behest of some nearby residents who once welcomed the restaurant with open arms but claim they were fooled by the Bells and wound up with a place that offers too much song and whiskey.
It's time for these neighbors to face up to their own prejudices and misconceptions instead of relying on Pinal County to harass San Tan Flat on their behalf.
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Bambi
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:36 pm |
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JJohnson wrote: gk wrote: The issue as it stands is the same..........the noise coming from his bar disturbs the neighbors. If your nighbors disturbed you with noise you would be calling also
Not if I had agreed to them moving in and knowing that they would be making noise. This neighbor attended the zoning meetings, spoke with Dale personally, and saw the plans (with a stage and microphone). Despite all of this they did not oppose the zoning change or Dale's plans. The time for complaints and protests has passed. Now is the time to figure out how to deal with the issues best. They made a mistake. No question about it. They should have done things differently in the beginning. But it is too late now. You are trying to close the barn doors after the horses are out. Now is the time to get the whole Hunt corridor zoned and the rules put in place to avoid these issues in the future.
Well said JJ. Now send this post to Sandie Smith, with a cc to the County Attorney, Mr. Gueber and to Planning and Development. They are the ones who need to hear this.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:29 pm |
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gk wrote: The issue as it stands is the same..........the noise coming from his bar disturbs the neighbors. If your nighbors disturbed you with noise you would be calling also
Not if I had agreed to them moving in and knowing that they would be making noise. This neighbor attended the zoning meetings, spoke with Dale personally, and saw the plans (with a stage and microphone). Despite all of this they did not oppose the zoning change or Dale's plans. The time for complaints and protests has passed. Now is the time to figure out how to deal with the issues best. They made a mistake. No question about it. They should have done things differently in the beginning. But it is too late now. You are trying to close the barn doors after the horses are out. Now is the time to get the whole Hunt corridor zoned and the rules put in place to avoid these issues in the future.
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gk
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 10:24 pm |
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| The issue as it stands is the same..........the noise coming from his bar disturbs the neighbors. If your nighbors disturbed you with noise you would be calling also
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JJohnson
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 07:41 pm |
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gk wrote: I do not know what the county will do.....if anything. O only know that the SO responds to noise complaints and some of them have formed their own opinions
Now answer my question..................would you or would you not call the Sheriffs office if your neighbor played very loud music, that you could hear inside your home on weekends over many months?
An opinion of what? That Dale is a jerk? That may be so but if that is what they are going to charge him with then the craziness is not over and alot of us are in danger of going to jail.. If he violates a noise ordinance then he should be ticketed. But at the same time he should not be harrassed and if the complainers continue to call the police and the noise levels are within the legal limit then they should be charged with false reporting and harrassment.
I did answer your question before. (http://www.newszapforums.com/view_topic.php?id=58387&forum_id=26&jump_to=291985#p291985)
Your question is loaded because your senario is not the same as what has happened at STF.
Last edited on Sun May 4th, 2008 07:49 pm by JJohnson
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anne.reed
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 08:38 pm |
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I have no idea. But, I sincerely doubt it's over.
Regards,
Anne
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gk
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 08:09 pm |
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I do not know what the county will do.....if anything. O only know that the SO responds to noise complaints and some of them have formed their own opinions
Now answer my question..................would you or would you not call the Sheriffs office if your neighbor played very loud music, that you could hear inside your home on weekends over many months?
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JJohnson
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:31 pm |
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JJohnson wrote: gk wrote: I have not said that the county handled this correctly.......all along I have complained about the noise. And so far as to the loudness of the music, it could be heard over a telephone inside one of the complainants homes over 1000 meters away. That is TOO LOUD! And it is very easy to have windows rattle with some of the amplified and exaggerated bass notes
I agree that the dance ordinance was silly, but the noise pollution is absolutely dale's fault and he should be held accountable for the noise. The mountain behind it is possibly having an amphitheater effect or what ever.
You will hear more about this issue I am sure
Will the county be fighting this or will this be pursued with private funds?
I still am waiting to a response to this question. Since Anne and GK are very obviously on the front lines of this offensive they should be able to answer this question very easily and straight forward
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JJohnson
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:28 pm |
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anne.reed wrote: I'm beginning to think you are Dale Bell, under pseudonym!
San Tan Ranches is not a political group. It's a residential subdivision of Ranchettes. If there's justice in this world, the whole community would cast their votes in favor of a zoning change when it's your property in jeopardy of devaluation. Oops, too bad for JJ. He better just pack it up and move.
Anne
I am definately not Dale and in fact i don't think he has done the right thing either. But legally, being a nice guy is not required. Legally he only has to follow the law.
The minute that San Tan Ranches got a spokes person and bands together it became a political group. Had your political group not agreed to and politically endorsed STF then there would have been some room for arguement. You guys are famous for sticking your noses into these issues and now you got burned at yur own game. Nobody won this. Not STF, not the neighbors, and ertainly not the county. To portray any of these groups as innocent victims is not being honest.
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gk
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 04:01 am |
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Yes, the people that are directly harmed by the noise call the Sheriffs office. That is a legitimate complaint and is responded to by the SO.
If your neighbors played loud music until 1:00 AM on weekends would you not call the Sheriffs office to complain? Don't you have a right to peace and tranquility in your home? People do it all the time because of neighbors that have no regard for anyone else, and that is exactly what dale is doing.......he has no regard for anyone but himself.
Do you think that he would be complaining if a car parked just across the street from him and blasted that obnoxious bass noise and rap music his direction. The way dale explains it, it is his right to make noise to disturb the neighbors.
Maybe I will suggest to the people that are affected by his noise to do just that...........park a car with extremely loud base thumping rap at his bar. Would he get the message? Sounds like a fair way of dealing with the situation to me!
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starleen
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 03:48 am |
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gk wrote: star.....I never called the Sheriff to complain. What gave you that idea?
Your entire premise is not viable. Again you are guessing and making leaps of imagination. I do not live anywhere near there and I don't call anyone to complain. What I am saying is that the noise issue is a very real problem to the people that do live there and all dale has to do is keep it turned down to a reasonable level.
Also noise complaints are very common all throughout the county, and across the Nation. Most departments try to respond to them
Read again. I did not say you called the Sheriff, but some one did. Feeble try to derail the conversation, try harder next time. Seek clarity. So many hard feelings, so much bitterness. Who will take the high road.
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gk
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 01:02 am |
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star.....I never called the Sheriff to complain. What gave you that idea?
Your entire premise is not viable. Again you are guessing and making leaps of imagination. I do not live anywhere near there and I don't call anyone to complain. What I am saying is that the noise issue is a very real problem to the people that do live there and all dale has to do is keep it turned down to a reasonable level.
Also noise complaints are very common all throughout the county, and across the Nation. Most departments try to respond to them
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anne.reed
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 11:24 pm |
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JJohnson wrote:
anne.reed wrote: Stipulations are apparently inadequate to control those whose intent is to deceive.
Thanks to Dale (and his self absorbed supporters), there may very well not be any commercial zoning changes near existing residential in all of Pinal County. More rules and regulations are always the outcome when people fail to act responsibly without rigid guidelines and predetermined penalties for failure to comply.
STF has never been, and will never be, part of the neighborhood, called San Tan "RANCHES". If it were, the County and the neighbors wouldn't be having this problem. Dale would have honored his commitments and the adjacent neighbors, who were there long before STF, would not have to be considering selling their family properties, as you so empathetically propose.
Regards,
Anne
A neighborhoood is a geographic area not a political group. STF is in your neighborhood. I am sure he was exiled from your little gang of neighbors when he refused to spend any more money to make you happy. He did not have to. He got his zoning and is living within its rules. Maybe he should impose some requirements on your residential zoning to protect his business? Maybe he should require some of his neighbors to build fences to hide the blight. Maybe he should require the horse owners to control their odors more. What is the difference? And please spare me the arguement that you were there first. Ownership and its subsequent rights are equal regardless of how long you have owned it.
I'm beginning to think you are Dale Bell, under pseudonym!
San Tan Ranches is not a political group. It's a residential subdivision of Ranchettes. If there's justice in this world, the whole community would cast their votes in favor of a zoning change when it's your property in jeopardy of devaluation. Oops, too bad for JJ. He better just pack it up and move.
Anne
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starleen
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 09:38 pm |
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gk wrote: I find it incredible that some of you are saying in effect that:
If you had a neighbor that played their music loud, load enough to hear it inside your home, and in some cases loud enough to shake the windows that you would have no complaints.
That you would not call the Sheriff and ask for something to be done.
Um, what about calling the neighbor to discuss the problem before you called the Sheriff and wasted more county resources on a noise complaint? Sounds like someone just wanting to document complaints (using county resources) so STF would look worse in court.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 09:22 pm |
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gk wrote: And the fact that one of the Deputies that I talked to told me that he could hear the music on his telephone when the complainant was talking to him on the phone, in his house. Funny thing about that........I was there 4 minutes before the deputy arrived and I heard the music volume go down. When he arrived it was at a reasonable level. All of this is unverifiable and are very serious accusations. I sure hope you have more proof than this to back up these statements. Why are you so willing to give dale the support for irritating his neighbors, when if it was your neighbors playing loud music all night you would be outraged and want something done about it. I think I addressed this question in a previous post. Let me know if you can't locate it and I will try to provide a link. Given the history of this fight, I have to say that I don't give anybody the benefit of the doubt. I will continue to use logic and personal judgement to sort through the issues. dale is not the only one with a decible meter Until the county's decible meter shows a violation then there is no violation. Just like I can sit in my driveway with a radar gun and record speeders, I can't submit the info to the police and expect a ticket to be issued. I can say that logic says that a business man would not take a chance of being caught turning up music especially when they know that the government is looking for any excuse to shut you down. This squable with the neighbors is not worth losing his entire business.
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gk
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 08:19 pm |
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have a hard time believing that the sound is that loud at over a half a mile away and he is not violating any noise violations. Sounds like a huge exageration or you are being duped by the "complainant"
You may have a hard time believing that .....but have you parked back in the neighborhood on different weekends and heard the noise? I have.
And the fact that one of the Deputies that I talked to told me that he could hear the music on his telephone when the complainant was talking to him on the phone, in his house. Funny thing about that........I was there 4 minutes before the deputy arrived and I heard the music volume go down. When he arrived it was at a reasonable level.
And that is not a one time occurance.
Why are you so willing to give dale the support for irritating his neighbors, when if it was your neighbors playing loud music all night you would be outraged and want something done about it. dale is not the only one with a decible meter
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Bambi
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:44 pm |
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Well, I just got back in town, and what a relief....The San Tan Flats issue has been resolved.
The Law has spoken, loud and clear. Every offense in the world of Law and Order, must be tied to a stipulation of the law. Our County Attorney was not able to do that; to tie the offense with the letter of the law;, and thus the law prevailed in favor, by default of the County Attorney, to provide a law against it. Plain and Simple.
Queen Creeks idea about that area not being appropriate for commercial is off base. They know and knew the value of that land for commercial use years ago....trust me; I had conversations with them about it, so not quite true to state you tried to stop it QC.. You wanted that ground for yourself, and you still do, as it has high commercial interest from many. By definition of any municipality, you identify those areas that will produce the highest potential income, and you place your radar on it, wait for the right timing and voila....it's yours.....Banner/Frys and this strip soon, as all the land owners that I know along there, which is just about all of them, want you, Q.C. to annex them, to avoid the pitfalls of doing business in Pinal County.
But that will soon change, as this case will establish a precedent along there now, and many will start applying for commercial zoning. Now, is the time to place a short moratorium on any zoning for that strip, until the impacted property owners behind this commercial strip, and the County meet, to designate it's type of zoning. We can not allow anymore spot zoning, and must utilize the skills of those familiar with resolutions to this type of zoning use quagmire. Experienced people from the community who have experience and knowledge in that field and can prove that ability. It is our responsibility, the people of this area, to assist our fellow residents who are impacted by this encumbrance to their slow and quiet lifestyles they have been so used to out here, and find them some kind of resolution to their problem. They're our neighbors.
I can't do a whole lot but offer a reduced commission if you choose to sell your residence; consolation and comfort; I own a 3.3 acre site in SanTanRanches Unit 7 in the back....7 miles South on Brenner Pass....no noise; no traffic; peace and quiet. I will sell it for $150,000. any one of these property owners that are impacted. We were selling them back there for $475k back in 2005. There is a 3.3 in SanTan Ranches unit 5 in escrow for $400,000. as we speak. That includes water and is across from public land. So, think about it. I might even sell it on terms. But, when the other one (3.3) closes escrow at the end of this month, the price goes up.
So, let's have compassion for our neighbors "plight" they have been put in without their understanding of the application of law for the general public's good, and give them our assistance.
I also suggest we, the County, do nothing in terms of new laws covering this issue, until the New Supervisors are elected. For someone to come up with a solution to our problems that states no more commercial zoning near residentail, will be another law suit just waiting to happen. This present regime should not have the power to guide us any further into poor decisions. Let's wait for the changing of the guards.
Last edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 08:05 pm by Bambi
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JJohnson
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:41 pm |
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gk wrote: all along I have complained about the noise. And so far as to the loudness of the music, it could be heard over a telephone inside one of the complainants homes over 1000 meters away.
I agree that the dance ordinance was silly,
I have a hard time believing that the sound is that loud at over a half a mile away and he is not violating any noise violations. Sounds like a huge exageration or you are being duped by the "complainant"
I can't believe that I have actually heard you admit that the dance ban was silly. Why then was it pushed by your buddies and subsequently funded/fought by the county? If you knew it was silly then why was our tax money expended on this?
Noise violations are black and white. They are measurable and quantifiable. The noise ordinance is also specific in its requirements. It can't be manipulated to fit a certain situation.
Noise polution on the other hand is a subjective deal and has such a high threshold of proof that you wil be spending a ton of money on experts and mesaurements that unless the county pays for it you will never see the inside of a court room. If the county funds this then there should be a huge public outcry as the embarassment will only continue for us.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:31 pm |
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anne.reed wrote: Stipulations are apparently inadequate to control those whose intent is to deceive.
Thanks to Dale (and his self absorbed supporters), there may very well not be any commercial zoning changes near existing residential in all of Pinal County. More rules and regulations are always the outcome when people fail to act responsibly without rigid guidelines and predetermined penalties for failure to comply.
STF has never been, and will never be, part of the neighborhood, called San Tan "RANCHES". If it were, the County and the neighbors wouldn't be having this problem. Dale would have honored his commitments and the adjacent neighbors, who were there long before STF, would not have to be considering selling their family properties, as you so empathetically propose.
Regards,
Anne
A neighborhoood is a geographic area not a political group. STF is in your neighborhood. I am sure he was exiled from your little gang of neighbors when he refused to spend any more money to make you happy. He did not have to. He got his zoning and is living within its rules. Maybe he should impose some requirements on your residential zoning to protect his business? Maybe he should require some of his neighbors to build fences to hide the blight. Maybe he should require the horse owners to control their odors more. What is the difference? And please spare me the arguement that you were there first. Ownership and its subsequent rights are equal regardless of how long you have owned it.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:25 pm |
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gk wrote: I have not said that the county handled this correctly.......all along I have complained about the noise. And so far as to the loudness of the music, it could be heard over a telephone inside one of the complainants homes over 1000 meters away. That is TOO LOUD! And it is very easy to have windows rattle with some of the amplified and exaggerated bass notes
I agree that the dance ordinance was silly, but the noise pollution is absolutely dale's fault and he should be held accountable for the noise. The mountain behind it is possibly having an amphitheater effect or what ever.
You will hear more about this issue I am sure
Will the county be fighting this or will this be pursued with private funds?
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anne.reed
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:24 pm |
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JJohnson wrote:
Actually you are leaving out one important piece of information. Your buddy gave the neighbor the green light to do this. Your buddy saw the project and either did not object or supported (accounts vary). Either he did not do his home work or they are nieve. Once the rules were layed out and agreed upon the right to complain is over.
Another point that is left out is that your buddies live along Hunt Highway. What did they think would become of the properties bordering the highway? Anybody with a 2nd grade education would know that that would eventually become commercial. With commercial comes noise and other irritants of residential neighbors. My guess (based on no fact) is that they got a good deal on their property because of the eventual change to the neighborhood. They can't have it all and STF is now part of that neighborhood. Like it or not he has equal rights to the enjoyment of his property.
Stipulations are apparently inadequate to control those whose intent is to deceive.
Thanks to Dale (and his self absorbed supporters), there may very well not be any commercial zoning changes near existing residential in all of Pinal County. More rules and regulations are always the outcome when people fail to act responsibly without rigid guidelines and predetermined penalties for failure to comply.
STF has never been, and will never be, part of the neighborhood, called San Tan "RANCHES". If it were, the County and the neighbors wouldn't be having this problem. Dale would have honored his commitments and the adjacent neighbors, who were there long before STF, would not have to be considering selling their family properties, as you so empathetically propose.
Regards,
Anne
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gk
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:17 pm |
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I have not said that the county handled this correctly.......all along I have complained about the noise. And so far as to the loudness of the music, it could be heard over a telephone inside one of the complainants homes over 1000 meters away. That is TOO LOUD! And it is very easy to have windows rattle with some of the amplified and exaggerated bass notes
I agree that the dance ordinance was silly, but the noise pollution is absolutely dale's fault and he should be held accountable for the noise. The mountain behind it is possibly having an amphitheater effect or what ever.
You will hear more about this issue I am sure
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bigwavedave
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 05:39 pm |
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gk wrote: it will come soon enough.......
I find it incredible that some of you are saying in effect that:
If you had a neighbor that played their music loud, load enough to hear it inside your home, and in some cases loud enough to shake the windows that you would have no complaints.
That you would not call the Sheriff and ask for something to be done.
That you would just sit back and say....."hey....it's his Constitutional right to annoy the hell out of me and keep me awake. Heck....if it bothers me enough maybe I just need to move
Your defense of his actions is absurd........I find it hard to believe that anyone would take that kind of stance on an issue.....but that is exactly what you are doing. You are so caught up in trying to make the BLC, the noise victims, or what ever boogeyman you believe is behind the noise complaints, embarrassed or somehow out of line........that you have lost all touch with the reality of the situation.
Sometimes I feel that evolution may be real......but in the reverse.
GK, for the record, never, and by that I mean not once, have I personally used the acronym "BLC" in any of my posts. Let's just set that straight right now. As for your arguments, why did the county choose to sue Dale on the merits of an antiquated "Dance Hall" statute and not because of noise? If the county (or you) have proof they violated loud noise ordinances, whey then do they not take action on those counts? This would to me be something a second grade English as a second language student could do. The dance hall argument just doesn't cut it. This truly sounds like a case of NIMBY. And please, music so loud that the windows rattle! If someone was playing music that loud, nobody could possibly stand it, much less dance to it. Such exaggerations don't do your cause any good, and please don't come back with a bs phrase of "How do you know you weren't there"? I know because nobody (even those of us at the low end of the reverse evolution scale) could handle that much noise. This is about some people who are upset and are throwing a temper tantrum. Do I feel this is a perfect situation? Of course not, but as times change, this beautiful desert of ours has changed. People have encroached, and where people go, business goes and where business goes, noise comes. The way this whole situation has played out stinks. Pinal county officials need to realize this is not Mayberry and they cannot bully others at taxpayer expense. If they want to sue, do so for the right reasons, not to placate a special interest. Lastly, leave your thinly veiled evolution insults out of this forum. You only lose more credibility when you choose to use them.
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JulieB
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 05:34 pm |
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gk wrote: it will come soon enough.......
I find it incredible that some of you are saying in effect that:
If you had a neighbor that played their music loud, load enough to hear it inside your home, and in some cases loud enough to shake the windows that you would have no complaints.
If that is true, then how is he NOT breaking the noise ordinance? Common sense would tell you that if the music was so loud that windows were shaking, then he would have been guilty of breaking the noise ordinance. That never happened, which is why this whole dancing thing came about in the first place.
And to JJ's point, I can't stand it when people move in along a major highway/street and then complain when developments start happening. Or when they move in on the edge of a subdivision. That's a chance you're always taking--you never know how land is going to end up being developed.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 04:23 pm |
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Actually you are leaving out one important piece of information. Your buddy gave the neighbor the green light to do this. Your buddy saw the project and either did not object or supported (accounts vary). Either he did not do his home work or they are nieve. Once the rules were layed out and agreed upon the right to complain is over.
Another point that is left out is that your buddies live along Hunt Highway. What did they think would become of the properties bordering the highway? Anybody with a 2nd grade education would know that that would eventually become commercial. With commercial comes noise and other irritants of residential neighbors. My guess (based on no fact) is that they got a good deal on their property because of the eventual change to the neighborhood. They can't have it all and STF is now part of that neighborhood. Like it or not he has equal rights to the enjoyment of his property.
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gk
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 04:09 pm |
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it will come soon enough.......
I find it incredible that some of you are saying in effect that:
If you had a neighbor that played their music loud, load enough to hear it inside your home, and in some cases loud enough to shake the windows that you would have no complaints.
That you would not call the Sheriff and ask for something to be done.
That you would just sit back and say....."hey....it's his Constitutional right to annoy the hell out of me and keep me awake. Heck....if it bothers me enough maybe I just need to move
Your defense of his actions is absurd........I find it hard to believe that anyone would take that kind of stance on an issue.....but that is exactly what you are doing. You are so caught up in trying to make the BLC, the noise victims, or what ever boogeyman you believe is behind the noise complaints, embarrassed or somehow out of line........that you have lost all touch with the reality of the situation.
Sometimes I feel that evolution may be real......but in the reverse.
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bigwavedave
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 01:01 pm |
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gk wrote: Damn.......busy all day and i get home to see this.....the BLC has it's back to the wall........they are regrouping..........and so on and so on.
This is just way to damn funny. Haven't some of you guys been embarrassed enough with all of the silly accusations, claims etc that turn out to have no substance?
What a bunch of drama queens!
I'm enjoying this way too much to say much more. Let the drama continue and I very much look forward to your next embarrasment.
P.S. it's not the BLC........it's some illiterate Arabs with box cutters
gk wrote: still outstanding is the noise pollution issue. It has been stated several times that he never exceded the stipulated levels.........well....that's not true
GK, where is the proof? You make a blanket statement so you either have the proof or you don't. If you have the proof, you can put this question to rest and shut us up......so, where is it? Time to put up or shut up! Many of us eagerly await your proof.
From: GK
This is just way to damn funny. Haven't some of you guys been embarrassed enough with all of the silly accusations, claims etc that turn out to have no substance?
We are still waiting....tick.....tick.....tick....tick....
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gk
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 04:18 am |
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Damn.......busy all day and i get home to see this.....the BLC has it's back to the wall........they are regrouping..........and so on and so on.
This is just way to damn funny. Haven't some of you guys been embarrassed enough with all of the silly accusations, claims etc that turn out to have no substance?
What a bunch of drama queens!
I'm enjoying this way too much to say much more. Let the drama continue and I very much look forward to your next embarrasment.
P.S. it's not the BLC........it's some illiterate Arabs with box cutters
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JJohnson
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 02:33 am |
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anne.reed wrote: Your lack of empathy is quite transparent despite your stated sympathies. I suggest you and Bell celebrate while you can, since, Dale may have won a battle but the war's not over till the last shot's fired.
You have it all wrong. You are blinded by your anger. Admit you made a mistake and live with those consquences. It is something that I taught my children at a very young age. You should try it.
Maybe you did not read my prior post but I am not a fan of the place myself. It is not my cup of tea. That said he has followed the rules that were put upon him and now he needs to be left alone to run his business within the confines of the agreements set by the county.
What I object to most is the fact that i had to pay for your personal civil lawsuit. If you have a problem with him use your own money and take him to court. Just don't make me pay for it. I doubt this would have been pursued if you had to pony up the money privately because you knew this was a weak case to begin with.
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JJohnson
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 12:51 am |
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Ever hear of stipulations? Those are rules that must be followed or they are in violation of the zoning.
You are also forgeting that you are using spot zoning and that is the root of your problem. Had you used forsight you would have zoned the entire Hunt frontage and had all the safegards in place. Instead you choose to micromanage and this is the result.
And no you can not trust a developer based on his/her word. Get everything in writing to protect everyone. You are nieve indeed if you don't think this is necesary. Every other sofisticated government entity gets everything in writing. When I bought my house the seller wanted me to go on their word for a couple of things to avoid the paperwork delay. I told them I could wait and do it the correct way. The county should do the same thing.
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anne.reed
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 10:26 pm |
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JJ wrote:
To the BLC: Your back is against the wall now. You have very little room for negotiations and manuevers. I would suggest that you get whatever you can in regards to concessions from Dale and call it quits. Afterwards, you can live with it or sell your properties and move somewhere else.
Dear JJ:
Your lack of empathy is quite transparent despite your stated sympathies. I suggest you and Bell celebrate while you can, since, Dale may have won a battle but the war's not over till the last shot's fired.
I don't see how the area will benefit by this ruling. The public will no longer be able to rely on developers to honor their word to the County, making zoning changes even more unlikely than in the past. Requiring a PAD is costly and further burdens future commercial development. Or, an alternative might be, issuing conditional use permits (with no zoning changes at all) so prompt corrective action (pull the business license) can be taken immediately and future betrayals of public trust avoided.
Regards,
Anne
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azsunshine
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 10:01 pm |
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