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Bambi
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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Thank you Mr. Bookchin, for correcting my observations. You are right. Then it appears to leave the 202 at Hawes? and head east to the Vistas. Now we're in Pinal County. The lack of small roads is what is confusing me. Then it heads down along the Vistas, towards us, but just how close does it get? What are the small roads surrounding it so I can get my bearings? It then proceeds to Florence, converges at 79 (duplication perhaps as few travel that 79 corridor.), then takes off, crosses 287? going close to Attaway, passing by a huge commercial mall that was negotiated with ? to be placed there. Then heads down near 87? towards Eloy (good move there). Is that your take on it?
The residents go to the Freeway corridors because they have to. Many would prefer it be located closer to home, as the present railine would afford them that opportunity. Park and ride. Or Walk and ride. Your Option.
Busses were tried before and just didn't go over that well, as I recall. Your BRT system would work, but it appears very costly. And how do you dedicate two roads for it's exclusive use (public transport) and all the other space required for people to wait for their busses? It will end up using up half of the existing freeway in my opinion.
This State has lagged behind other states in terms of infrastructure for many years. I remember discussions in the newpaper back in the early 60's about starting our freeways out here, but there just wasn't a sense of urgency for some reason, so time went on and on until we were placed in a position of catch up...caused by apathy. We have always lagged, in terms of Freeways, let alone other forms of mass transportation. I doubt I'll live long enough to see any of it. But, at the rate we are still growing out here, we better hurry.
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Bambi
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 06:09 pm |
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I say "let the People speak". Unsightly tracks are worth their weight in gold, if they can carry the masses out of the neighborhoods, to their jobs. That's the function of mass transportation....people movers.
Everything else you have stated has already been agreed upon. Jobs will be created here indeed, but not for "all" people who live here necessarily. We will have people who live elsewhere work here too. You will still have a mass of people who work at the Marcopa County offices in downtown Phoenix, and State and City offiices in downtown Phoenix, who drive there everyday.....the rail goes right by the City, County and State offices in downtown Phoenix.
Right now there are many carpools going into Phoenix from here, packed with people, who are on the road for at least an hour to an hour and a half, heading for work in other cities....many work for the Sheriff's office as Dentention Officers from here. They have to leave by 4:30 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. to avoid traffic backups. They need relief. We can't build another Dentention Center for them out here, so they will always be traveling westward for miles.
Let's get our priorities in order, that's all.
Defining Transportation Corridors? Hunt Hiway is a major one, yet still sits as a two lane, chip sealed road, of questionable safety. Yet, we must hold off on that transporation corridor for lack of funds and for lack of good planning. If we placed commercial on that Corridor, the Developers could widen and pave the road for the People. But, here we sit.....and there it sits, with opposing sides, each for a valid reason, but still it sits, with no resolution.
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anne.reed
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 04:50 pm |
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Bambi wrote:
Anne. I'm not the most familiar with transportation routes of any kind, as I am a country girl, and don't need them. But others in their towns do. Let's take the Chicago area with it's suburbs. The rail runs thru these towns and picks up the people to take them to downtown Chicago...Calumet, Homewood, Alton, etc. are some of the small cities along the route. It doesn't run along a freeway...that's another carrier for people. It runs thru their small towns, allowing some to even walk to the train, to catch it to get to their place of work.
Unless we are planning two routes. Discussion has ensued about the rail that runs thru Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert, Higley, Queen Creek, Anthem, Florence and down to Tucson, along side the existing rail system. If we are going to spend money on a rail, lets have it spent where it will benefit the most people. Those are the towns and the present rail runs right thru the towns, for easy pickup. The other light rail proposed runs thru Mesa and Apache Junction and County land, with a swoop around the airport, but not down to the villages. who's benefit is this rail system for? Retirees who live along the 60 in A.J. and Gold Canyon?
Just don't understand it all, that's all. Confused as to reasons why, other than developers and their attorneys made sure that the rail goes by their commercial developments, i.e. malls, etc.
Dear B:
Pinal County will never reach it's potential if it remains a bedroom community for jobs located in Maricopa County. I think we need to be forward thinking, anticipating the imminent changes to our national and local economies that are taking place due to globalization. The trend toward green collar/eco-friendly jobs is a bright spot on a gloomy horizon. Technology continues to advance and fossil fuel supplies continue to wane. If we've learned one thing in the past three decades it's that the past does not define the future. Compare the prevailing industries of 1950, 1970, 1990 and today. The jobs of past generations continue to be cycled out of existence. We must acknowledge and embrace these changes rather than be fearful. Just as we survived the transition from the industrial age to the information age, we can position ourselves to benefit from evolving economic trends.
From a planning standpoint, defining transportation corridors is a critical element to developing an underlying land use plan that stimulates timely economic development and ultimately, enhances the quality of life for all Pinal County residents. A well defined land use plan that included residential, (high and low density) commercial and industrial sites would expedite our quest for good jobs right here in Pinal County. Jobs that would require commuting east and south, rather than west and north.
I have long wondered what we might do to beautify the unsightly area where existing tracks run through Queen Creek and Pinal County? Utilizing the areas adjacent to existing tracks for light rail development could effectively address this eyesore. Side by side rails, would also minimize the cost for bridges and tunnels needed to accommodate drivers on surface streets, and promote concentrated, rather than disbursed industrial development.
I do like AJ's suggestion about converting the HOV lane to light rail, seems like a no brainer to me. However, for this area, we'd still have to address existing tracks and adjacent land use if we adopted that policy.
Regards,
Anne
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ajBookchin
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 03:23 pm |
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Bambi wrote:
No link my friend. Just poor eyesight I guess. It appears from the map of the route that it goes into the Junction boundaries around the Superstition Visita's project, which starts around Ironwood and the Freeway. That's the Junction. Am I right? I wish I could observe a more detailed map.
No, the rail route (the blue line on the map) appears to travel east along the US60 from Phoenix until reaching the 202 where it travels south to Gateway Airport, then east again to the proposed AZ88 (AJ-Eloy freeway) where it would turn south and travel along that route basically skirting the western edge of the Superstition Vistas.
I doubt a more detailed map exists.
Bambi wrote:
Why would you put a rapid rail service along the existing freeway? The freeway handles those people along that route. Why duplicate it? How many people live along the freeway, as opposed to those who live along the existing train route that goes diagaganol thru several cities "downtown" area. That is Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert, Higley, Queen Creek, Johnson Ranch (46,000 people), Anthem , Florence and Tucson? those are your population areas that would pick people up to take them to the other cities. THen they can take another form of mass transportation and that is the bus to their distination.
Actually, I wouldn't put a rapid rail service along the existing freeway, I would replace the HOV lanes with a Rapid Bus Transit system, also known as BRT. I have not done a significant amount of research but expect that a BRT would require both lower capital and operating expenditures compared to rail while offering many of the same benefits of rail - I would propose a system with limited stops, once every two or three miles, within a separated right-of-way, operating at high service frequencies with headways as short as 5 minutes during peak travel periods.
I would place rapid transit along these existing corridors because the system would reflect existing travel patterns. I would not be seeking a transport system that entirely eliminates the use of autos. Rather residents would travel to the freeway corridor as they do now, but then have the option to travel independently or travel on the BRT system. A BRT system along existing freeways would offer commuters with many more destinations than would be offered by rail traveling along existing rail routes.
Please understand that I am not opposed to operating commuter rail service along existing rail right-of-ways, but commuter rail service does differ from the rapid transit service I would like to see within our expressways. Commuter rail is typically less frequent with service limited to mornings and evenings, placing an emphasis on commuters traveling into a regions central business district.
I'm seeking to provide a more efficient transport system than currently offered by our individual autos or traditional bus service without disregarding existing land use and travel patterns. Commuting together (cooperatively) should make our commutes less costly. 5 minute headways during peak travel should eliminate concerns over how a transport system's schedule will work within the context a user's commute. Limited stops and separated right-of-ways improve the efficiency of public transport related to the cost of time. Cooperative transport would also benefit our environment.
Did you check the links describing Curitiba's BRT system??? The system manages to attract 60-85% of the city's commuters despite the fact that there are more cars per capita in Curitiba than any other city in Brazil. (Hopefully I got my facts right in that last statement, but check the articles for yourself.)
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Bambi
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 01:11 pm |
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ajBookchin wrote: Bambi wrote: ... The other light rail proposed runs thru Mesa and Apache Junction and County land, with a swoop around the airport, but not down to the villages...
Bambi - would you please provide a link to this proposal; this is the first I have heard of light rail to Apache Junction. I am interested in the proposed route as a simple extension of the Apache Blvd/Main Street alignment would be excruciatingly time consuming.
The best option would replace the existing HOV lanes along our freeways with rapid light rail service - although a less expensive alternative would replace the HOV lanes with bus rapid transit - something similar to the model used in Curitiba, Brazil.
http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/12/11/transporation-tuesday-curitiba/
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/brazil1203/transportation.html
No link my friend. Just poor eyesight I guess. It appears from the map of the route that it goes into the Junction boundaries around the Superstition Visita's project, which starts around Ironwood and the Freeway. That's the Junction. Am I right? I wish I could observe a more detailed map.
Why would you put a rapid rail service along the existing freeway? The freeway handles those people along that route. Why duplicate it? How many people live along the freeway, as opposed to those who live along the existing train route that goes diagaganol thru several cities "downtown" area. That is Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert, Higley, Queen Creek, Johnson Ranch (46,000 people), Anthem , Florence and Tucson? those are your population areas that would pick people up to take them to the other cities. THen they can take another form of mass transportation and that is the bus to their distination.
I see the light rail....remember it's not rapid transit; it's light rail which is most conducsive to "shoppers". Thus, the reason it travels down a "shopping Mall corridor". Ya think the Developers had anything to do with that?
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ajBookchin
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 04:08 am |
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Bambi wrote: ... The other light rail proposed runs thru Mesa and Apache Junction and County land, with a swoop around the airport, but not down to the villages...
Bambi - would you please provide a link to this proposal; this is the first I have heard of light rail to Apache Junction. I am interested in the proposed route as a simple extension of the Apache Blvd/Main Street alignment would be excruciatingly time consuming.
The best option would replace the existing HOV lanes along our freeways with rapid light rail service - although a less expensive alternative would replace the HOV lanes with bus rapid transit - something similar to the model used in Curitiba, Brazil.
http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/12/11/transporation-tuesday-curitiba/
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/brazil1203/transportation.html
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Bambi
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 01:06 am |
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Anne. I'm not the most familiar with transportation routes of any kind, as I am a country girl, and don't need them. But others in their towns do. Let's take the Chicago area with it's suburbs. The rail runs thru these towns and picks up the people to take them to downtown Chicago...Calumet, Homewood, Alton, etc. are some of the small cities along the route. It doesn't run along a freeway...that's another carrier for people. It runs thru their small towns, allowing some to even walk to the train, to catch it to get to their place of work.
Unless we are planning two routes. Discussion has ensued about the rail that runs thru Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert, Higley, Queen Creek, Anthem, Florence and down to Tucson, along side the existing rail system. If we are going to spend money on a rail, lets have it spent where it will benefit the most people. Those are the towns and the present rail runs right thru the towns, for easy pickup. The other light rail proposed runs thru Mesa and Apache Junction and County land, with a swoop around the airport, but not down to the villages. who's benefit is this rail system for? Retirees who live along the 60 in A.J. and Gold Canyon?
Just don't understand it all, that's all. Confused as to reasons why, other than developers and their attorneys made sure that the rail goes by their commercial developments, i.e. malls, etc.
Last edited on Tue May 6th, 2008 01:08 am by Bambi
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anne.reed
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 12:13 am |
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Bambi wrote:
Take a look at the proposed transportation routes. Who do they accomodate?
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/image?filename=images/photos/2008/05/02/kizegt1.gif
Everything is heading east, to the Superstition Vistas Project....including the commuter rail system. Does that mean that the one we have been discussing before, coming thru Mesa, Gilbert, Queen Creek, Florence, Tucson is off the books for now? I certainly hope not. If so, that is a flagrant violation of the rights of the citizens out here. It's politicians and developers that are pushing that Super. area....and it hasn't even been started yet.
Here we sit with close to 50,000 people, not including Queen Creek and Florence, absent of the necessary infrastructure, just to conduct business, let alone run a household. We best be first on the list before we put money into a fantasy at this juncture.
And, who is paying for the consulting team that is drawing up a development plan for Pinal County?
Dear B:
Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me as if the commuter rail and the new loop are only a couple of sections away from us. How close would you want them to be? Obviously, commercial and industrial will ideally be located near the new transportation corridors, so, I think putting them a safe distance away from existing residential is "good planning". That way, residents can choose whether they want to live near these amenities, or, whether they'd rather maintain sufficient distance to minimize the traffic and congestion.
Not sure if the County has received all the right of ways they need, but, at least we have some idea of where the future commercial and industrial will be located. I would think this would make you a really happy camper. Swami Anne sees a bowling alley (for Bob and Char) and some theaters in the future of the San Tan Area... Not to mention short commute jobs, jobs and jobs... YIPPEE!!
Isn't better planning (getting ahead of the curve) what we've all been asking for from Pinal? This appears to be a reasonable path that accommodates most existing and future residents of Pinal County. Both Pinal and Maricopa Counties, ADOT, and cities and towns within Pinal had a seat at the table when establishing these routes.
Regards,
Anne
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Bambi
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 06:28 pm |
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Take a look at the proposed transportation routes. Who do they accomodate?
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/image?filename=images/photos/2008/05/02/kizegt1.gif
Everything is heading east, to the Superstition Vistas Project....including the commuter rail system. Does that mean that the one we have been discussing before, coming thru Mesa, Gilbert, Queen Creek, Florence, Tucson is off the books for now? I certainly hope not. If so, that is a flagrant violation of the rights of the citizens out here. It's politicians and developers that are pushing that Super. area....and it hasn't even been started yet.
Here we sit with close to 50,000 people, not including Queen Creek and Florence, absent of the necessary infrastructure, just to conduct business, let alone run a household. We best be first on the list before we put money into a fantasy at this juncture.
And, who is paying for the consulting team that is drawing up a development plan for Pinal County?
Last edited on Sun May 4th, 2008 06:33 pm by Bambi
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