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flygad1
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Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 10:34 am |
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Chad
I will remind you again Arizona is not just a Representitive democracy. We are also a direct democracy.
We have title 19 allowing voters to make laws ,stop laws , and remove crooked politicians.At the ballot box!
DIRECTLY!
Elliott Fisher
Pinal County Independent
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pipeman
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Posted: Sat Jul 25th, 2009 06:43 am |
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flygad1 wrote: Pipeman
I was refering Gold Canyon . Queen Creek is incorporated is it not?
EF
EF, yes I understood you to be talking about GC. Yes TOQC became incorprated in 1989.
I was saying GC never had a vote to incorprate as your city would not allow them the chance to put it on the ballot.
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flygad1
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Posted: Sat Jul 25th, 2009 05:06 am |
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Pipeman
I was refering Gold Canyon . Queen Creek is incorporated is it not?
EF
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pipeman
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Posted: Sat Jul 25th, 2009 03:57 am |
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HUH?? There was NO unofficial vote EVER........ There could not be a vote unofficial or otherwise since AJ would not give them permission
The residents in GC wanted to but AJ said no.
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pipeman
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Posted: Thu Jul 23rd, 2009 06:18 am |
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Last edited on Thu Jul 23rd, 2009 06:19 am by pipeman
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flygad1
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Posted: Thu Jul 23rd, 2009 05:13 am |
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Bryan,
You are in fact correct about a official vote. I should have made that clear it was a unofficial vote not conducted by the County. It seems it was vetted by the press and widely accepted as valid.
But still a pain in your a**
lol
EF
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BryanMartyn
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 23rd, 2009 04:52 am |
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Just thought I'd clarify a couple things about Gold Canyon and Apache Junction.
Gold Canyon is not incorporated and is not a part of the City of Apache Junction . Gold Canyon is a community within the unincorporated area of Pinal County.
About five years ago the citizens of Gold Canyon asked Apache Junction to authorize a Gold Canyon vote to incorporate. The Apache Junction city council disapproved the request. (Arizona Revised Statute mandates those communities seeking incorporation will receive permission from municipalities within 6 miles of the proposed community borders). There has never been an official vote for incorporation for the community of Gold Canyon.
Until July 1, 2009, Gold Canyon's zip code, 85218, was known to the USPS as Apache Junction; although, I'm not aware of any part of the City of Apache Junction resting within 85218. As with San Tan Valley, the USPS has now changed the designation. The zip code 85118 is no longer known as Apache Junction and is now known as Gold Canyon.
Elliott is 100% correct when he writes that Gold Canyon and Apache Junction share a fire district (Apache Junction Fire District). The name is a misnomer as it is not a municipal fire department. Additionally, the Apache Junction Unified School District serves Gold Canyon. There are two elementary schools in Gold Canyon. Again, the Apache Junction name is a bit of a misnomer.
Finally, I'm going to have to check around about the Gold Camp reference. I've never heard any reference to the 1800s. The story that is generally told is that there was a simple error by a census employee during the last census. I'll check with Rosemary Shearer. She is a relative of the King Family; one of the community's first families.
The blogs are a fun place to see what is going on. If you want to know the no kidding answer, please feel free to write me at bryan.martyn@pinalcountyaz.gov. I'm happy to find and post the answer.
Bryan
Last edited on Thu Jul 23rd, 2009 04:53 am by BryanMartyn
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pipeman
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Posted: Thu Jul 23rd, 2009 04:12 am |
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| Wrong, GC wanted to incorporate and AJ would not approve it.
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flygad1
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Posted: Thu Jul 23rd, 2009 03:32 am |
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Citizen
The fact is Gold Canyon is not a incorporated area at all. Especially AJ ! those folks would rather be neutron bombed before that would happen.
They are not incorporated and do just fine . The school district is shared and fire district is shared. seperate boards of directors.
Decisions are not made by the Apache Junction City Council. They did not ever want the Laura Dean Lytles ( much AJ support) or Stan Griffs type governance!
They are well aware of the entrenched ,questionably elected , dukes of Hazard type of governance!
Gold Canyon voted NO on incorporation each time it has been presented!
EF
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citizen1
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Posted: Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 05:44 am |
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Small correction...Gold Canyon IS part of AJ...AND, technically, if you look on any US maps, Gold Canyon doesn't even exist. On the GPSs it's actually listed as: Gold Camp, AZ due to some historial issue that happened in the 1800s. Sorry, not much of an historian.
The taxes there support AJ school district as well...they just want to think they are separate...
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americana
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Posted: Fri Jul 17th, 2009 06:14 pm |
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Well my understanding is
to use your new zip code 851 w/whatever last 2 digits you've been assigned...
AND display "San Tan Valley" on your envelopes and checks for now.
No need to rush Incorporation ... just let your family & business know of the change.
San Tan Valley is being used to let the Post Office deliver more efficiently.
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bobthebuilder
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Posted: Tue Jul 7th, 2009 01:47 am |
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Good! More people off of the surface streets.
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2 cents
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 09:35 pm |
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| hey fly, did the bill make it to the gov's desk?
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flygad1
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 08:37 pm |
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pcresident wrote: flygad1 wrote: Chad,
I can't vote for the incorporation issue there but I can start a No Incorporation Committee!
But you don't live here in "san tan valley" so please keep your hand off our can of worms. Just because you don't think we should incorporate, does that mean that you want us to continue overspending pinal's tax collections?
Pcresident- I will try again to inform your area. The legislature is passing a bill that will allow cities to create Toll Roads.
If you think this is a good idea , I wish you good luck.
Taxes will go up in Pinal anyway thats a fact but Toll Roads will be a nightmare anywhere we drive the money meter will be clicking! It is just another urbanization process . Is this why you moved out there?
EF
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pcresident
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 05:29 am |
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flygad1 wrote: Chad,
I can't vote for the incorporation issue there but I can start a No Incorporation Committee!
But you don't live here in "san tan valley" so please keep your hand off our can of worms. Just because you don't think we should incorporate, does that mean that you want us to continue overspending pinal's tax collections?Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 05:29 am by pcresident
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flygad1
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:37 am |
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Chad,
I can't vote for the incorporation issue there but I can start a No Incorporation Committee!
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Chad Roche
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 08:37 pm |
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flygad1 wrote: Approval was never committed by AJ. A election for or against was conducted and Gold Canyon was 2/3 against.
The matter ended there No Incorporation!
EF
Good for them...that doesn't mean the same thing would happen out here anyway. Oh, for the record: you can't vote.
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flygad1
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 07:14 am |
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Approval was never committed by AJ. A election for or against was conducted and Gold Canyon was 2/3 against.
The matter ended there No Incorporation!
EF
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Chad Roche
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 08:40 am |
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2 cents wrote: Chad Roche wrote:
I have looked briefly at ARS, I know there are specific laws and I realize it's not a magic bullet. Gold Canyon is within the city limits of AJ isn't it? That would raise a situation that we don't have. From what I've heard TOQC and Florence are now on board with us incorporating, I'm sure COMesa can be persuaded as well.
EF, I'm done arguing with you on this topic because you don't live out here and don't get a say.
Good day, sir.
Geez Chad, get a grip. You say that to some people in GC and they will send you home with a bloody nose.
LOL...I just asked the question because I honestly didn't know....I have been corrected though!!
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Forbidden.Fruit
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:12 am |
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Pipe,
Elliott was busy with some stuff at that time and might not remember what really happened. Whats that? What has Elliott been up to? Filing lawsuits of course and costing poor taxpayers in AJ lots of money!
so i have to edit since it doesnt post well. But to see it yourself, go here... http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/ and then put in " FISHER " as last name and " ELLIOTT " as first name and " 1963 " as date of birth.
M-0441-TR-97005069 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 85219 Miami Municipal
S-1100-CV-200100234 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 85219 Pinal County Superior
S-1100-CV-2000048158 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 85219 Pinal County Superior \
S-1100-CV-200100264 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ Pinal County Superior
S-1100-CV-2000047540 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 85219 Pinal County Superior
S-1100-CV-200200600 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 852193729 Pinal County Superior
S-1100-CV-200300284 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963
Pinal County Superior
J-0903-TR-20032804 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 WARWICK, RI 02886 Snowflake Justice
S-1100-CV-200401496 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 85219 Pinal County Superior
J-1106-TR-20050101 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 85219 Superior-Kearny Justice
S-1100-CV-200500336 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 85219 Pinal County Superior
J-1107-CR-20060077 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 85219 Apache Junction Justice
R-0751-PR-2008026914 [/url] ELLIOTT FISHER 8/31/1963 APACHE JUNCTION, AZ 852193729 Scottsdale Municipal
Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:22 am by Forbidden.Fruit
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pipeman
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:05 am |
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flygad1 wrote: Chad
You can end a conversation any time with me . I am ok with that, but you should leave with the facts.
Gold Canyon is not part of Apache Junction and they have fought incorporation time and again . Why ?
Many people left Apache Junction when it became a City because of the idiots that created and still run the City of Apache Junction.
Where did they go just ouside the City limits! Funny thing you should know Bryan Martyn lives in Gold Canyon !
Wonder why he avoids incorporation like the plague there? Maybe these people no something about being a City!
Elliott Fisher
Pinal Independent
What are you dreaming up now????
Gold Canyon tried to incorporate in 2003/2004, but AJ would not give them the needed approval.
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flygad1
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 09:44 pm |
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Chad
You can end a conversation any time with me . I am ok with that, but you should leave with the facts.
Gold Canyon is not part of Apache Junction and they have fought incorporation time and again . Why ?
Many people left Apache Junction when it became a City because of the idiots that created and still run the City of Apache Junction.
Where did they go just ouside the City limits! Funny thing you should know Bryan Martyn lives in Gold Canyon !
Wonder why he avoids incorporation like the plague there? Maybe these people no something about being a City!
Elliott Fisher
Pinal Independent
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2 cents
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 01:50 pm |
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Chad Roche wrote:
I have looked briefly at ARS, I know there are specific laws and I realize it's not a magic bullet. Gold Canyon is within the city limits of AJ isn't it? That would raise a situation that we don't have. From what I've heard TOQC and Florence are now on board with us incorporating, I'm sure COMesa can be persuaded as well.
EF, I'm done arguing with you on this topic because you don't live out here and don't get a say.
Good day, sir.
Geez Chad, get a grip. You say that to some people in GC and they will send you home with a bloody nose.
Last edited on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 02:56 pm by 2 cents
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 06:48 am |
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flygad1 wrote: Chad
I would encourage you to look up Incorporation in the Arizona Revised Statutes.
There are specific laws pertaining to how incorporation is achieved.
Gold Canyon is developing quite well without incorporation!
For a good reason they don't want it run like Apache Junction without ethics ,term limits , half ass zoning, A petition process that has 99% of the time been obstructed by the City Attorney. They have voted incorporation down twice!
I really think you should increase your awareness of the undertaking of Incorporation.
ain't cheap or a magic bullet by no means!
EF
I have looked briefly at ARS, I know there are specific laws and I realize it's not a magic bullet. Gold Canyon is within the city limits of AJ isn't it? That would raise a situation that we don't have. From what I've heard TOQC and Florence are now on board with us incorporating, I'm sure COMesa can be persuaded as well.
EF, I'm done arguing with you on this topic because you don't live out here and don't get a say.
Good day, sir.
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pintail
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 07:38 am |
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| bump
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pipeman
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 04:46 am |
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History_101 wrote: Did we forget about the City Manager? Aren't they the ones that run the city? Don't they make in excess of $100,000.00 per year? I to will agree you get what you pay for. Also, let's not forget about all of the city employees. Those that man the phones, collect funds, do inspections and many many more not mentioned. A city must staff these positions and that doesn't come without paying wages and insurance and retirement. Who ever puts this city together had better be well informed and now maybe you are seeing why it can't be done overnight. Allot of planning and research needs to be done. This research needs to be provided to the community so they can make a decision as to go or not go for a city. I've said many times it is easy to say "Let's incorporate." but there is much more to it than that.
I still ask why does the County want to get rid of us so fast? If they can't afford us right now, how can we afford ourselves out on our own? Easy answer, they are not only responsible for providing for us 80,000 people, they have about 200,000 others to worry about providing for as well. Not all of the money they receive will come directly to us. They currently get a little over 6% in sales tax. None or very little of that will come to us and we will get only what we increase it by. So if we end up increasing the sales tax by 3%, that is all we are assured of getting. Other funds that comes from the County and State is done by head count. To get a real head count, a special census would have to be done at a cost of say maybe $80,000.00. Anyone got that sitting idle that wants to donate it to the city?
Sorry I was not on during the name game thing. This reminded me of the prior incorporation efforts. Stick it down their throats before they know what is happening. Sorry Mr. Supervisor, we can screw up our area on our own, we don't need your help. I sure hope you stay out of the incorporation process as it is a political one and I sure hate to see a one term Supervisor. But then maybe you have your sights set higher and are using this position as a stepping stone.
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flygad1
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 03:44 am |
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History
Man you got it right. Bryan Martyn is craming this thing in Quick! I already know why and soon everyone else will.
The 40,000 he spent to win in Novemeber is clearly paying dividends now for his buddies.
It was his legal right to take the bread and good on him as my Aussie wife says.
Toll Roads, Urbanization , I really hope the 80,000 folks are smarter than he and his buddies think .
Like I said in the election campaign in November slow and steady wins the race!
pass it my man! You folks don't need growing smarter laws you already are!
Elliott Fisher - pinal Independent
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flygad1
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 03:30 am |
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Chad
I would encourage you to look up Incorporation in the Arizona Revised Statutes.
There are specific laws pertaining to how incorporation is achieved.
Gold Canyon is developing quite well without incorporation!
For a good reason they don't want it run like Apache Junction without ethics ,term limits , half ass zoning, A petition process that has 99% of the time been obstructed by the City Attorney. They have voted incorporation down twice!
I really think you should increase your awareness of the undertaking of Incorporation.
ain't cheap or a magic bullet by no means!
EF
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History_101
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 03:00 am |
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Did we forget about the City Manager? Aren't they the ones that run the city? Don't they make in excess of $100,000.00 per year? I to will agree you get what you pay for. Also, let's not forget about all of the city employees. Those that man the phones, collect funds, do inspections and many many more not mentioned. A city must staff these positions and that doesn't come without paying wages and insurance and retirement. Who ever puts this city together had better be well informed and now maybe you are seeing why it can't be done overnight. Allot of planning and research needs to be done. This research needs to be provided to the community so they can make a decision as to go or not go for a city. I've said many times it is easy to say "Let's incorporate." but there is much more to it than that.
I still ask why does the County want to get rid of us so fast? If they can't afford us right now, how can we afford ourselves out on our own? Not all of the money they receive will come directly to us. They currently get a little over 6% in sales tax. None or very little of that will come to us and we will get only what we increase it by. So if we end up increasing the sales tax by 3%, that is all we are assured of getting. Other funds that comes from the County and State is done by head count. To get a real head count, a special census would have to be done at a cost of say maybe $80,000.00. Anyone got that sitting idle that wants to donate it to the city?
Sorry I was not on during the name game thing. This reminded me of the prior incorporation efforts. Stick it down their throats before they know what is happening. Sorry Mr. Supervisor, we can screw up our area on our own, we don't need your help. I sure hope you stay out of the incorporation process as it is a political one and I sure hate to see a one term Supervisor. But then maybe you have your sights set higher and are using this position as a stepping stone.
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Chad Roche
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 01:45 am |
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QCVillager wrote: Chad Roche wrote: I also think that the first mayor and city council members should agree to serve for 4 years (one term) voluntarily; that would save a lot of money upfront
Chad, now that i've actually been a Councilman and know the amount of work the job takes and the amount of TIME it takes... i would caution you or anyone starting a new city. if it actually came to a point where San Tan Valley was ready to incorporate, i would say you should definitely PAY the first Mayor and Councilmembers. it's the old, you get what you pay for thing.
if you don't pay a penny, do you really think you'll get the best persons for the job ? if you dont pay a penny, don't you think you'll have people who might be prone to trying to leverage their elected status some other way ? maybe they'll find themselves in someone's or some special interest's pocket. not good.
at the same time, i would argue that you wouldn't want the pay to be a lot either. since then you get people who would just want to do the job full time and that creates it's own set of issues.
in TOQC, the Councilmembers get $900 monthly. the Mayor is $1500. we dont' give health insurance because then you get people seeking the job for medical benefit which can sometimes mean they are otherwise unemployable or again... maybe not the best person for the job.
i can tell you that i personally spend at least 30 hrs per week on town biz. i dont think it would be reasonable to think you could find 7 people willing to put in 30 hours per week for FOUR years for free ! and if you could... would you WANT THEM ?
QC,
I understand the work is difficult in Queen Creek; you are an established community. But, more than likely the council and mayor for San Tan Valley (I like Wyatt, AZ better) would be involved in the incorporation effort and would be open to something like I proposed.
I understand that sometimes you get what you pay for but is $1500 going to get us an MBA educated individual with 25 year experience in public administration or corporate governance? I just think that 1 term without pay would be acceptable to ask in order to get a city/town started.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 01:30 am |
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Chad Roche wrote: I also think that the first mayor and city council members should agree to serve for 4 years (one term) voluntarily; that would save a lot of money upfront
Chad, now that i've actually been a Councilman and know the amount of work the job takes and the amount of TIME it takes... i would caution you or anyone starting a new city. if it actually came to a point where San Tan Valley was ready to incorporate, i would say you should definitely PAY the first Mayor and Councilmembers. it's the old, you get what you pay for thing.
if you don't pay a penny, do you really think you'll get the best persons for the job ? if you dont pay a penny, don't you think you'll have people who might be prone to trying to leverage their elected status some other way ? maybe they'll find themselves in someone's or some special interest's pocket. not good.
at the same time, i would argue that you wouldn't want the pay to be a lot either. since then you get people who would just want to do the job full time and that creates it's own set of issues.
in TOQC, the Councilmembers get $900 monthly. the Mayor is $1500. we dont' give health insurance because then you get people seeking the job for medical benefit which can sometimes mean they are otherwise unemployable or again... maybe not the best person for the job.
i can tell you that i personally spend at least 30 hrs per week on town biz. i dont think it would be reasonable to think you could find 7 people willing to put in 30 hours per week for FOUR years for free ! and if you could... would you WANT THEM ?
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Oakland
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 12:50 am |
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Incorporation first is a must, then and only then can you go after big business. This will not be done overnight, everyone will have a chance to go to meetings where everything, is explained and discussed. The main point is that you have to go to these meetings. It is not possible for someone to go to everyone's living room to discuss this. It wouldn't go on the ballot for 16 months. You will have to be registered to vote, not like the name change, which really didn't need a vote. Plenty of time , for us to get educated on this important decision.My feelings as of now is that's it the only way to go.
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 12:40 am |
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flygad1 wrote: flygad1 wrote:
First of all, Elliot, WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY!! The United States of America is a Representative Republic. The democratic part of the process in a republic is when we elect the people to represent us. Then, they make decisions based on feedback and what is good for the entity they represent. I can't read Bryan's mind but I think his first action of just picking the name after speaking with some of the HOA's and some people was the right move. He is duly elected to make decisions!
Chad
Are you going to split hairs?
The Representative form of Government was powerfully modified in 1912 when Arizona achieved Statehood ! Therefore you are wrong in a big way.
The arguement is also wrong because states like Arizona have rights onto themselves!
"states rights" Title 19 Initiative , Referendum , and Recall are written into our constitution because Your Representative government was not trusted by people like Morris Goldwater Barry's father!
I will remind you INCORPORATION is also achieved by petition! And for Good reason to control the "Barney" Martyns .
Pinal Independent
EF
No, Elliot, I'm not wrong. The 10th Amendment to the US Constitution guarantees states rights and individual rights over the federal government. The establishment of the states doesn't remove the representitive republican form of government that was established in this country. Initiative, Referendum, and Recall were a progressive idea that was incorporated into our government by progressive (elected) Republicans and Democrats who didn't agree with the Republic and felt a Democracy was better for us. The problem with Democracy (YES IT IS A FLAWED SYSTEM) is that if 51% of the people want something, they get it no matter how wrong. A Republic is about the rule of LAW not the greater good or majority ruling. The people speak when the ELECT the representatives if they don't like the representatives they elect new ones.
Here is a helpful video for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7M-7LkvcVw
Chad.
Oh, by the way, if you are going to use the name of a Republican leader like Barry Goldwater, you need to get the facts straight. Sen. Barry Goldwater's (R) father was BARON Goldwater and the Senator's full name is Barry Morris Goldwater. I'm not sure who the Morris Goldwater you are referring to is!!?
Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 01:14 am by Chad Roche
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 12:22 am |
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nybrian wrote: You are all right, incorporation doesn't require tax increases. But let's look at the two comparisons you guys offered.
Mesa---large base of tax-paying retail, with malls, car dealerships. They own the Gas Company, the water company, and a small electric company. They have an airport or two. They have hotels. They were able to grow slowly, rather than need everything at once. In comparison, we will have one or two Fry's, a Walmart, and some smaller shops and restaurants.
Queen Creek---this is the path I would like to follow. QC has done a great job. They started small and were selective with what they annexed. But out here we are talking about picking up 65 sq miles with 80,000 residents. And I don't see anyone opening up a car dealership, a mall, or anything else substantial in the next couple years. So my guess is that we will continue buying from QC and Gilbert, and the money to pay for the town will need to come from somewhere.
Listen, I would like us to incorporate in a smart way. I would pay more for better services. But it is still early. So far there are no specifics, and I'm just saying that we should be cautious and have a process that is open, so people know exactly what they are voting for. Remember, the county is not trying to get rid of us because we produce a surplus of money, but because we are a drain on the county.
NY,
I agree and disagree with you. If we incorporate we will instantly get more money than Flagstaff (we would likely have a larger population!) from the state and as an incorporated entity we can use bonds to get things started (I agree slowly). There are also negotiations with the County that can be done to have them pay for things like contracting the Sheriff's Department. I'm not saying I have all the answers and something like incorporation shouldn't be taken lightly but it can definately be done without instant tax increases.
The thing is: how are we supposed to get the retail and business that Mesa and Gilbert have WITHOUT incorporation? They didn't have the businesses and infrastructure they have now when they incorporated, it took time--Mesa was founded about 130 years ago!! As Mesa grew they gradually got the things they needed, which you mentioned. but what things do we need that aren't already in progress? We have shopping that is coming, a hospital that is being built, several retail locations would be in the city, golf courses, etc. My point is that by continuing to wait for incorpporation and constantly talking about the things that COULD go wrong we should focus on what COULD and will go right!!
Oh, I'd be okay with a city sales tax of about 3-5% as well!! NO property or income taxes though! I also think that the first mayor and city council members should agree to serve for 4 years (one term) voluntarily; that would save a lot of money upfront
Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 12:28 am by Chad Roche
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pipeman
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 12:04 am |
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nybrian wrote: You are all right, incorporation doesn't require tax increases. But let's look at the two comparisons you guys offered.
Mesa---large base of tax-paying retail, with malls, car dealerships. They own the Gas Company, the water company, and a small electric company. They have an airport or two. They have hotels. They were able to grow slowly, rather than need everything at once. In comparison, we will have one or two Fry's, a Walmart, and some smaller shops and restaurants.
Queen Creek---this is the path I would like to follow. QC has done a great job. They started small and were selective with what they annexed. But out here we are talking about picking up 65 sq miles with 80,000 residents. And I don't see anyone opening up a car dealership, a mall, or anything else substantial in the next couple years. So my guess is that we will continue buying from QC and Gilbert, and the money to pay for the town will need to come from somewhere.
Listen, I would like us to incorporate in a smart way. I would pay more for better services. But it is still early. So far there are no specifics, and I'm just saying that we should be cautious and have a process that is open, so people know exactly what they are voting for. Remember, the county is not trying to get rid of us because we produce a surplus of money, but because we are a drain on the county. well of course that is part of it and if anyone thinks otherwise would be foolish. But people seem to think Bryan is driving this to further his political career. Let's stop and look at the mentality behind that thought process. 1. would doing something to hurt our community of 80,000 people do anything to enhance his pilitical career? I think not, it would be politcial suicide for him. I could not agree more that we should have an open process. Ok, I can hear it now, "well if the county can't provide for us, how can we provide for ourselves". People must stop and think of Pinal Cnty as a pie. We are only a slice of the pie the county must provide for. There is alot more pie where are tax dollars go to. It surely is not been spent on us. With us being a city with local control and government, we will be keeping our tax dollars here and putting them to work for us, it will not be going to widen roads in Casa Grande, and revitalizing down town Florence.
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nybrian
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 06:13 pm |
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You are all right, incorporation doesn't require tax increases. But let's look at the two comparisons you guys offered.
Mesa---large base of tax-paying retail, with malls, car dealerships. They own the Gas Company, the water company, and a small electric company. They have an airport or two. They have hotels. They were able to grow slowly, rather than need everything at once. In comparison, we will have one or two Fry's, a Walmart, and some smaller shops and restaurants.
Queen Creek---this is the path I would like to follow. QC has done a great job. They started small and were selective with what they annexed. But out here we are talking about picking up 65 sq miles with 80,000 residents. And I don't see anyone opening up a car dealership, a mall, or anything else substantial in the next couple years. So my guess is that we will continue buying from QC and Gilbert, and the money to pay for the town will need to come from somewhere.
Listen, I would like us to incorporate in a smart way. I would pay more for better services. But it is still early. So far there are no specifics, and I'm just saying that we should be cautious and have a process that is open, so people know exactly what they are voting for. Remember, the county is not trying to get rid of us because we produce a surplus of money, but because we are a drain on the county.
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flygad1
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 07:44 am |
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flygad1 wrote:
First of all, Elliot, WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY!! The United States of America is a Representative Republic. The democratic part of the process in a republic is when we elect the people to represent us. Then, they make decisions based on feedback and what is good for the entity they represent. I can't read Bryan's mind but I think his first action of just picking the name after speaking with some of the HOA's and some people was the right move. He is duly elected to make decisions!
Chad
Are you going to split hairs?
The Representative form of Government was powerfully modified in 1912 when Arizona achieved Statehood ! Therefore you are wrong in a big way.
The arguement is also wrong because states like Arizona have rights onto themselves!
"states rights" Title 19 Initiative , Referendum , and Recall are written into our constitution because Your Representative government was not trusted by people like Morris Goldwater Barry's father!
I will remind you INCORPORATION is also achieved by petition! And for Good reason to control the "Barney" Martyns .
Pinal Independent
EF
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flygad1
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 07:35 am |
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First of all, Elliot, WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY!! The United States of America is a Representative Republic. The democratic part of the process in a republic is when we elect the people to represent us. Then, they make decisions based on feedback and what is good for the entity they represent. I can't read Bryan's mind but I think his first action of just picking the name after speaking with some of the HOA's and some people was the right move. He is duly elected to make decisions!
Chad
Are you going to split hairs?
The Representative form of Government was powerfully modified in 1912 when Arizona achieved Statehood ! Therefore you are wrong in a big way.
The arguement is also wrong because states like Arizona have rights onto themselves!
"states rights" Title 19 Initiative , Referendum , and Recall are written into our constitution because Your Representative government was not trusted by people like Morris Goldwater Barry's father!
I will remind you INCORPORATION is also achieved by petition! And for Good reason to control the "Barney" Martyns .
Pinal Independent
EF
Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 07:43 am by
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flygad1
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 07:21 am |
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I will give you folks some advice.
If and when Bryan attempts Incorporation I would make sure of a few things.
Don't make the mistakes Apache Junction did in 1978.
A . Make sure the town has a real CHARTER (constitution) that spells out ethics rules etc.
B . How Title 19(petition) laws will be written. ex- How many signatures for Initiative , Referendum and Recall.
By what process will they be determined Votes Cast or Registered voters.
C . IMPOSE TERM LIMITS IN THE CHARTER or suffer later with entrenched well connected forever council members.
some ideas
Elliott Fisher
Pinal Independent
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pipeman
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 07:04 am |
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BOSOX wrote: You are exactly correct Pipeman!
Could not have said better myself. Incorporation does not always mean tax increase! And hell even if it did mean I have to pay a little more for all of the benefits that come from it? I would rather have the money go to our community/ town rather than bordering towns.
I second your sentiments BO. I would rather pay a thousand more dollars a year in property taxes knowing full well that the grand would be staying in my city rather than being split up and dished out all over the county. We are paying for everything we get now, which I don't need to remind anyone that coming from the county isn't much.
I am not bashing the county, as we are only a slice of the pie they have to provide for.
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BOSOX
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 06:58 am |
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You are exactly correct Pipeman!
Could not have said better myself. Incorporation does not always mean tax increase! And hell even if it did mean I have to pay a little more for all of the benefits that come from it? I would rather have the money go to our community/ town rather than bordering towns.
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pipeman
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 06:42 am |
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Chad Roche wrote: nybrian wrote: Chad Roche wrote: nybrian wrote: Sorry if it came off as ME questioning the supervisors motives. I'm not sure where you got that. I do think SOME people who missed the vote may, though. I think he was right in almost everything he did, but when everyone started pushing their own views he should have realized that a 2 or 3 month timeframe to get the word of a vote out was probably worth the delay.
I think in the military it's important to make decisions and live with them; in an emergency there is no one in the area I'd trust more to make emergency decisions. But this wasn't an emergency. Not much would have been lost in putting off a vote until the fall, and although there would still be some people complaining no matter when this was done, I think they would have a lot less to complain about.
And while there is nothing that prevents us from changing the name in the future I don't think that's going to happen. It's going to be hard enough to convince the area to vote yes for incorporation---and then to get the people to agree to change their address again is asking a lot. More and more people will just grow used to the new name.
I don't disagree that it will be hard to convince people to incorporate but it is the best thing for us. We will bring government down closer to the people and put ourselves on the map for development from businesses and bring JOBS to our area. My only apprehension in waiting on the vote is we've done this several times and have gotten nowhere so I'm okay with pushing it through---sometimes if you don't force people to make a decision they never will.
Fair enough.
Of course the next step is actually getting some business down here. I think that's going to be a tough sell. Look at the Williams-Gateway website and read about the reasons to relocate there---tax breaks, access to freeways, special trade zone.
Then think about all of the empty warehouses and offices closer to the city---it may be a while before that's all absorbed.
I'm sorry to say that I think we're too late, this place should have incorporated a long time ago.
And without commercial revenue incorporation means tax increases, which I don't see us voting for.
Anyhow, it will be an interesting 15 months (assuming it goes on the Nov2010 ballot.
That is complete misinformation that incorporation means tax increases. There is nothing that says incorporation means new taxes or tax increases so why do you say that?
agreed. Mesa and TOQC until recently did not have secondary taxes and look at how long both of these cities/towns have been incorporated. We may need to have a city sales tax, but you pay that anywhere you go. At least this way it would stay within our own city.
We would also be receiving approx: 20 mill in state shared rev. (don't hold me to this, it's just a quick and rough calculatiuon) providing the state does not get their vote.
Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 06:53 am by pipeman
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Chad Roche
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 06:36 am |
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nybrian wrote: Chad Roche wrote: nybrian wrote: Sorry if it came off as ME questioning the supervisors motives. I'm not sure where you got that. I do think SOME people who missed the vote may, though. I think he was right in almost everything he did, but when everyone started pushing their own views he should have realized that a 2 or 3 month timeframe to get the word of a vote out was probably worth the delay.
I think in the military it's important to make decisions and live with them; in an emergency there is no one in the area I'd trust more to make emergency decisions. But this wasn't an emergency. Not much would have been lost in putting off a vote until the fall, and although there would still be some people complaining no matter when this was done, I think they would have a lot less to complain about.
And while there is nothing that prevents us from changing the name in the future I don't think that's going to happen. It's going to be hard enough to convince the area to vote yes for incorporation---and then to get the people to agree to change their address again is asking a lot. More and more people will just grow used to the new name.
I don't disagree that it will be hard to convince people to incorporate but it is the best thing for us. We will bring government down closer to the people and put ourselves on the map for development from businesses and bring JOBS to our area. My only apprehension in waiting on the vote is we've done this several times and have gotten nowhere so I'm okay with pushing it through---sometimes if you don't force people to make a decision they never will.
Fair enough.
Of course the next step is actually getting some business down here. I think that's going to be a tough sell. Look at the Williams-Gateway website and read about the reasons to relocate there---tax breaks, access to freeways, special trade zone.
Then think about all of the empty warehouses and offices closer to the city---it may be a while before that's all absorbed.
I'm sorry to say that I think we're too late, this place should have incorporated a long time ago.
And without commercial revenue incorporation means tax increases, which I don't see us voting for.
Anyhow, it will be an interesting 15 months (assuming it goes on the Nov2010 ballot.
That is complete misinformation that incorporation means tax increases. There is nothing that says incorporation means new taxes or tax increases so why do you say that?
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BOSOX
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 03:44 am |
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nybrian wrote: Listen, the whole thing is a train wreck. I think Bryan had the best of intentions in moving this forward but at some point should have seen that we needed to slow down and involve the entire community. Instead, we just pressed forward. Now if you were on vacation, in the military and overseas, or simply a snow bird away for the summer you were left out of the process. So as these people return to a new name this will continue for the next several months. We look ridiculous.
EXACTLY!!!! This is why I am very angry about the whole thing!!! I was out of town for two weeks, for training with my company in Washington, and come back to find this ill chosen name being forced upon us and even more upsetting is the way the whole process happened!!!
I am wondering since there is no form of real government out here are we able to request a re vote? One that involves the all of actual residents rather than just the few (1700)people that got the privilege of knowing this was going to happen?
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nybrian
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 02:28 am |
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pintail wrote: nybrian wrote:
Fair enough.
Of course the next step is actually getting some business down here. I think that's going to be a tough sell. Look at the Williams-Gateway website and read about the reasons to relocate there---tax breaks, access to freeways, special trade zone.
Then think about all of the empty warehouses and offices closer to the city---it may be a while before that's all absorbed.
I'm sorry to say that I think we're too late, this place should have incorporated a long time ago.
And without commercial revenue incorporation means tax increases, which I don't see us voting for.
Anyhow, it will be an interesting 15 months (assuming it goes on the Nov2010 ballot.
there are several big advantages to locating a business in San Tan Valley/Pinal when compared to the Gateway area.
1. price of the land.
b. rigidity. if the propsed business does not fit the model that is laid out around gateway it will not get approved.
c. permitting/fees.
4. additional construction cost to comply with maricopa's requirements.
the biggest disadvantge is infrastructure.
i am not saying we should give the town away to business but if we maintain sensible architecture standards and reasonable fees we can attract business to this area and a lot sooner than you think.
Well, I've been wrong before, and I hope I'm wrong again. I just see so much open land, so much vacant commercial. And I hate how in Arizona the cities just keep outbidding each other as far as how many incentives need to be doled out.
For me, supporting incorporation ended when QC annexed the future 900,000 sq ft shopping center at Ironwood and Ocotillo---that would have been worth millions per year. So now all of the northern citizens of our future city will give their money to QC, and I'll need to pay for their roads out of my money.
I can say this for sure---I'm not voting for incorporation based on promises and dreams. Here's what I need----QC not annexing the FRY's and Hospital, buildings going up with leases signed on some of our other free land, and Hunt Highway 100% finished from Ellsworth to Thompson (We were promised this from Pinal, and I'm not letting them off the hook).
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pintail
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 02:03 am |
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nybrian wrote:
Fair enough.
Of course the next step is actually getting some business down here. I think that's going to be a tough sell. Look at the Williams-Gateway website and read about the reasons to relocate there---tax breaks, access to freeways, special trade zone.
Then think about all of the empty warehouses and offices closer to the city---it may be a while before that's all absorbed.
I'm sorry to say that I think we're too late, this place should have incorporated a long time ago.
And without commercial revenue incorporation means tax increases, which I don't see us voting for.
Anyhow, it will be an interesting 15 months (assuming it goes on the Nov2010 ballot.
there are several big advantages to locating a business in San Tan Valley/Pinal when compared to the Gateway area.
1. price of the land.
b. rigidity. if the propsed business does not fit the model that is laid out around gateway it will not get approved.
c. permitting/fees.
4. additional construction cost to comply with maricopa's requirements.
the biggest disadvantge is infrastructure.
i am not saying we should give the town away to business but if we maintain sensible architecture standards and reasonable fees we can attract business to this area and a lot sooner than you think.
Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 02:03 am by pintail
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nybrian
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 01:32 am |
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Chad Roche wrote: nybrian wrote: Sorry if it came off as ME questioning the supervisors motives. I'm not sure where you got that. I do think SOME people who missed the vote may, though. I think he was right in almost everything he did, but when everyone started pushing their own views he should have realized that a 2 or 3 month timeframe to get the word of a vote out was probably worth the delay.
I think in the military it's important to make decisions and live with them; in an emergency there is no one in the area I'd trust more to make emergency decisions. But this wasn't an emergency. Not much would have been lost in putting off a vote until the fall, and although there would still be some people complaining no matter when this was done, I think they would have a lot less to complain about.
And while there is nothing that prevents us from changing the name in the future I don't think that's going to happen. It's going to be hard enough to convince the area to vote yes for incorporation---and then to get the people to agree to change their address again is asking a lot. More and more people will just grow used to the new name.
I don't disagree that it will be hard to convince people to incorporate but it is the best thing for us. We will bring government down closer to the people and put ourselves on the map for development from businesses and bring JOBS to our area. My only apprehension in waiting on the vote is we've done this several times and have gotten nowhere so I'm okay with pushing it through---sometimes if you don't force people to make a decision they never will.
Fair enough.
Of course the next step is actually getting some business down here. I think that's going to be a tough sell. Look at the Williams-Gateway website and read about the reasons to relocate there---tax breaks, access to freeways, special trade zone.
Then think about all of the empty warehouses and offices closer to the city---it may be a while before that's all absorbed.
I'm sorry to say that I think we're too late, this place should have incorporated a long time ago.
And without commercial revenue incorporation means tax increases, which I don't see us voting for.
Anyhow, it will be an interesting 15 months (assuming it goes on the Nov2010 ballot.
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 01:20 am |
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nybrian wrote: Sorry if it came off as ME questioning the supervisors motives. I'm not sure where you got that. I do think SOME people who missed the vote may, though. I think he was right in almost everything he did, but when everyone started pushing their own views he should have realized that a 2 or 3 month timeframe to get the word of a vote out was probably worth the delay.
I think in the military it's important to make decisions and live with them; in an emergency there is no one in the area I'd trust more to make emergency decisions. But this wasn't an emergency. Not much would have been lost in putting off a vote until the fall, and although there would still be some people complaining no matter when this was done, I think they would have a lot less to complain about.
And while there is nothing that prevents us from changing the name in the future I don't think that's going to happen. It's going to be hard enough to convince the area to vote yes for incorporation---and then to get the people to agree to change their address again is asking a lot. More and more people will just grow used to the new name.
I don't disagree that it will be hard to convince people to incorporate but it is the best thing for us. We will bring government down closer to the people and put ourselves on the map for development from businesses and bring JOBS to our area. My only apprehension in waiting on the vote is we've done this several times and have gotten nowhere so I'm okay with pushing it through---sometimes if you don't force people to make a decision they never will.
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nybrian
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 01:17 am |
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Sorry if it came off as ME questioning the supervisors motives. I'm not sure where you got that. I do think SOME people who missed the vote may, though. I think he was right in almost everything he did, but when everyone started pushing their own views he should have realized that a 2 or 3 month timeframe to get the word of a vote out was probably worth the delay.
I think in the military it's important to make decisions and live with them; in an emergency there is no one in the area I'd trust more to make emergency decisions. But this wasn't an emergency. Not much would have been lost in putting off a vote until the fall, and although there would still be some people complaining no matter when this was done, I think they would have a lot less to complain about.
And while there is nothing that prevents us from changing the name in the future I don't think that's going to happen. It's going to be hard enough to convince the area to vote yes for incorporation---and then to get the people to agree to change their address again is asking a lot. More and more people will just grow used to the new name.
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 11:21 pm |
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nybrian wrote: Listen, the whole thing is a train wreck. I think Bryan had the best of intentions in moving this forward but at some point should have seen that we needed to slow down and involve the entire community. Instead, we just pressed forward. Now if you were on vacation, in the military and overseas, or simply a snow bird away for the summer you were left out of the process. So as these people return to a new name this will continue for the next several months. We look ridiculous. Suppose a large company does want to move here---just wait as they do the research and find facebook accounts protesting this, crazy internet posts, eventually a lawsuit or two.
Well, it's not changing, and since I like the name way more than Bella Vista I guess I am moderately happy. I just wish we could have done it by building a consensus rather than ramming something through. As we move towards incorporation I believe Mr Martyn will regret not including more community input. Because there are now many more people who don't trust our Supervisor and his motives.
NYBrian,
I'm not sure how the supervisor's motives are in question over this whole issue. Just because he did his job doesn't mean his motives are questionable. I'm not in love with either name but I think San Tan Valley is as vague and retarded as San Tan Area. We aren't a city yet, and if we incorporate there is nothing stopping us from changing it again!!!
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