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flygad1
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 08:24 pm |
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History
Proceed with caution . Bryan has already allowed the name debate to be controlled . Do you think he won't be able to control the fiscal debate?
It is like the saying" possesion is nine points of the law." He already has posession of the debate!
Any anti - incorporation arguement is already starting from a weak position.
It is not a total loss yet ,but the forces of resistance better be on task and quick!
EF
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History_101
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 01:27 pm |
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I don't think the reference to Flagstaff or any other town/city that has been made was done to draw a direct comparison to our area; however, there are things that can be gained from looking at this kind of data. Many of the revenues that will come into the city will be based on population. It is easy to look at a budget from a current city and do the math on those items and then calculate it to our population. That is one reason an accurate head count is so important.
I believe Maricopa incorporated about 4-5 years ago. One of the things they said during their incorporation effort was how they were going to improve the traffic flow in and out of the newly formed city. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this has happened yet. This is also one of the things that we have talked about, improving our traffic flow in a North/South direction and maybe even West. What we have to understand is a town/city only has control within their city limits. So to make statements in how we can move traffic outside of our city limits is pure fiction. So I caution everyone to take a step back when someone starts talking about improving traffic flow.
Even using Maricopa as an example, it is not a good match. In a posting below, it is said they have 350 businesses and 23 restaurants. I would call that more than a few. What we have is a few. We have nowhere that many and these are all sales tax producing assets.
nybrian, I'm glad you have a better understanding of revenue streams now. This is something I've been preaching for a long time. And I'll agree with you again, someone needs to do allot of legwork and hard research to get the correct numbers out to our residents. Without that data, we will be voting on a pig in a poke and we all could be sorry in the long run. I to hope these numbers will materialize and who ever heads up this group can be honest with the residents. There are many hurdles to overcome and this process just cannot happen overnight like some would like to see happen.
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flygad1
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:30 am |
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nybrian
I see you are trying to convince these people of something with the application of 'common sense.' It will be an uphill battle. Some of these folks are members of the Never mind the facts my mind is made up club! My experience with this kind of person 9 of 10 times they already have something to gain.
I know I am just a gadfly or conspiricy theorist!
I would start telling anyone that can listen - If you want to become another Apache Junction sign on for incorporation.
simple as that!
EF
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nybrian
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:16 am |
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I wasn't saying that we should just take Maricopa's numbers and use them as is, but I was saying that since they are in our county, and since they are recent to incorporation, and since in many ways they have the same issues as us it may be helpful to use them as a comparison. Now they have 45,000 people to our 80,000 people, so obviously we would need to use a multiple to get an estimate.
Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no set formula that will tell us exactly what we will get. It is all a percentage of sales tax, of gas tax, of property tax, etc. So we really need an immense amount of further information than we currently have, But since Maricopa is similar in its makeup---a few stores and restaurants, not too much industry---we can get an idea of what we may expect.
I guess in reading their information I got a better idea on how much sales tax really plays in paying for the city. When we look at what we will get back much of it is based on a percentage of sales tax collected. So for us to make this work we need to keep the retail within our boundaries. Since the City of Maricopa loses so much retail to other areas they need a property tax---and I am having a hard time seeing how we would avoid that as well.
Listen, I don't have the slightest idea about the process for becoming a city. I do know that someone needs to do the legwork, and do the hard research, into getting some numbers out. I assume someone will be. This process needs to get started early enough for everyone to have an opportunity to listen, learn, and ask questions. That's the only thing I really ask for, is real numbers and real honesty in this process.
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pipeman
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Posted: Mon Jul 6th, 2009 03:08 am |
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If we are going to start comparing us to another city maybe we should look at the City of Maricopa. They are a bit smaller in population, about the same size in land mass, and face many of the same problems we do.
There is no comparison. We have to compare ourselves (like i provided) with a city/cities with as close to the amount of people we have. Land size does not matter. Each state gets pretty much the same calculated dollar amount.
Last edited on Mon Jul 6th, 2009 04:14 am by pipeman
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nybrian
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Posted: Sun Jul 5th, 2009 07:42 pm |
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Here's something else from the City of Maricopa. Breaks down where all of the money comes from---State, Federal, Local.
Great Reading:
http://www.maricopa-az.gov/city_manager/resources/budget/08-09book/revenues.pdf
And here's some more....
http://www.maricopa-az.gov/financial_services/budget/brief.php
Last edited on Sun Jul 5th, 2009 07:45 pm by nybrian
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nybrian
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Posted: Sun Jul 5th, 2009 07:28 pm |
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I think when we start throwing around numbers we kind of get off track. We really have no idea how much money we will get. We also need to be careful when comparing this new city to cities that already exist. For example, Flagstaff has a university, many hotels, two freeways cutting through it, and a ton of business.
If we are going to start comparing us to another city maybe we should look at the City of Maricopa. They are a bit smaller in population, about the same size in land mass, and face many of the same problems we do. Here is some info from their website:
Maricopa at a Glance
Maricopa off ers residents and
businesses the experience of a
small-town, rural atmosphere that is
within a short distance to two major
metropolitan areas.
Th e City of Maricopa is
approximately 59 square miles
Th e average household income
in the City of Maricopa is $75,000;
this is among the highest in the state
of Arizona.
Approximately 61 percent of City
residents hold a bachelors degree or
graduate degree.
Th e City currently has approximately
350 businesses
and 23 restaurants.
Annual Events: Founder’s Day,
Salsa Festival, Holiday Homes on
Parade, Stagecoach Days, Parent-
Child Fishing
This is where I got the information from, if anyone is interested in seeing some of the things the city is providing for its residents:
http://www.maricopa-az.gov/residents/resources/guidebook2008.pdf
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History_101
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Posted: Sun Jul 5th, 2009 12:44 pm |
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It is funny you should bring up Flagstaff. Did you see where they are projecting a $13 million deficit for FY2010? I quote from their City Manager, "I have said it before, but I will say it again, these are unprecedented times. We have seen over 3 million jobs disappear across the U.S. in the last year. We are experiencing a decline in sales tax revenue never witnessed in Flagstaff. We are fighting daily to preserve state shared revenues from being taken by the State to solve their budget crisis." You might want to read the entire letter the City Manager sent out to what he called his Colleagues.
http://www.flagstaff.az.gov/DocumentView.asp?DID=8463
Flagstaff's proposed budget for 2010 sits at just over $151 million. They claim to have had a decline in sales tax revenue as never witnessed before. Have you driven through Flagstaff lately? They probably have 100 times more commercial then what we do. They also have hotels/motels where they can draw tax dollars from. I don't see a one out in our area. Our sources of revenue are so limited and the dollar values we could expect from them are so small, I don't see how anyone could even be thinking incorporation. Take a look at Flagstaff's 2010 proposed budget.
http://www.flagstaff.az.gov/DocumentView.aspx?DID=8596
It is obvious Flagstaff is having some hard times, much like every other town/city in Arizona not to mention the State and Counties. It is fully understandable why Pinal County wants to get rid of 80,000 of its residents. They don't have enough revenue to provide the services they are obligated by State law to provide. So what is there answer? Convince the residents of an unincorporated area they should incorporate and thus relieve them of the obligations they have. Now if the county can't afford us, just how do you expect to do it on your own? Please, please, please tell me where all this money is going to come from to run the City of San Tan Valley.
If incorporation is so great, why isn't our Supervisor pushing for the incorporation of Gold Canyon, his own backyard. Let's test the incorporation waters by incorporating Gold Canyon first and then if that works out, we'll consider it here in San Tan Valley.
Not to change the subject, but I'm wondering who drew the boundaries for the new city? It is obvious they contain quite a bit of State Trust Land. Are you aware you cannot incorporate or annex State Trust Land without the approval of the ASLD? Before that can happen, the ASLD must analyze and evaluate a proposal for what the land will be utilized for. Then and only then, they will issue an approval or denial. This process could take some time knowing how the State works. This is just one of the problems I see with the new boundaries, there are more.
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pipeman
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Posted: Sun Jul 5th, 2009 08:26 am |
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Chad Roche wrote: History_101 wrote: Chad Roche wrote: History,
I'm not 100% disagreeing with you because you bring up many valid points. There is an underlying tone in your message that I dont' agree with. Let's say we do incorporate 80,000 people and we now get more money from the state than Flagstaff does, who says we have to run our city like Mesa, Gilbert, QC, or any other town in the state?! Why can't we be different!!! Why can't we "live within our means" and develop a budget based on what we HAVE not what we WANT.
Too often our governments operate under the mantra of spend spend spend....our state, neighboring states, and our Federal Governments are great examples of that and where has it gotten us!??!? I'm using hypothetical numbers but if the money we would get right off the bat was $20 million from the state and $5 million from property taxes and then we levy a 2.5% sales tax that gets us another $5 million and development fees, fees for service, impact fees and all the other fees that a city or town collects gets us another $2 million upfront. We now have a budget of $32 million dollars....we work backward from there and make sure that our spending is less than or equal to $32 million...why won't that work? It may mean that we don't get the library or we don't get a christmas decorating of Hunt Hwy or that we may not develop the downtown area for a few years, SO WHAT?!?!? nothing says we have to do what all the other cities and towns do to get themselves in trouble.
We need to go into this with the mentality that we aren't going to over-committ and overspend. We should even draft it into the municipal laws that the city council and mayor MUST have a balanced budget every year that can't include any more than a 0.25% increase in taxes or fees annually.
Why not START a city on republican (little "r" so no one get all excited) fiscally responsible principles????...
Chad,
Underlying tone? I never meant to sing you a song. I'm just asking for facts, not numbers that are being pulled out of the air. You have some hypothetical numbers in your post. I ask where did you come up with them? Are they something you pulled out of the air? I don't like to see numbers like this being tossed around without any validity to them as people start reading them and take them for gospel and before you know it, they become fact. You just can't take a factitious number and work backwards from there without knowing if that number is realistic and valid. Do you even know what services a city must provide their residents, how much each is going to cost, or for that matter, what services do the residents actually expect or want? Is this something a small group is once again going to decide for us? I never said I knew everything HIST. Yes the numbers were mostly pulled out of the air and they were used to make a point. The $20 million from the state is probably close considering Flagstaff gets around $16 million. As far as the services the residents want....that is a loaded gun. Government isn't around to always give the people whatever they want--it is there to uphold the law and protect the people according to said law. I'm not going to rant on this forever you can look at my other posts and see where I'm going. On the other hand, with incorporatiion people expect some things...I get that. I've ask this question many times and I'll try once again. Has anyone actually sat down and calculated how much money would actually come into a newly incorporated city from the different revenue streams and compare that to what this new city would actually be spending for the services a city must provide their residents? This is a very important step in any incorporation effort. People are going to ask some very hard questions when you put this before them and if you don't have the answers, you will fail much like the last efforts did. Is that what you want? Who says I'm running anything? I'm just a resident, like you, who has taken an interest in this. As far as some of the numbers for real....ARS 9-136 says that we get our fair share from the county and state in regard to collected taxes--I don't know what that is but I'm sure we can find out pretty easily based on other municipalities. Someone (pipeman) has said that we get $300 per household--ish which would come out to about $8 million which I think is a little low because Flagstaff gets $16 million just from the state. Actually, Flagstaff received $19,354,097 in State Shared Rev. in 2008 with a population of 64,693. Chino Valley received $4,424,253 with a population of 13,069 (two combined closest to our proposed 79,000/80,000 for a combined total of state shared rev of $23,778,350ARS will dictate everything the town or city is allowed to or has to do. Based on what I've read, we should do the same thing Gilbert did and start as a Town because a town doesn't have the same requirements of a city.
I'll agree that governments operate under the mantra of spend, spend, spend. But what are we doing here? We are creating another level of government that actually duplicates what we are now getting from Pinal County. You and others talk about "local control". If we can't control what our elected officials do in the county, how do you expect to control the ones elected to office in the city? Are we doing enough when it comes to county control? Are we attending the meetings, doing the research on the different items that comes before the different boards or committees, standing up for what we want or believe in, I think not. So what makes you think it will be different with a new level of government? What I see here is we have here is a small group that wants incorporation, a small group that opposes it and a very large group of apathetic people that just doesn't care until it starts hitting them in the pocket book. I agree that most people are apathetic but incorporating isn't just adding another level of government. Keep in mind that the Supervisors and the county have to be concerne with the ENTIRE county not just us. We can't "control" Bryan Martyn to simply bend to what we want, he has to be cognizant of the impact on the entire county. If we incorporate then the Mayor and Council are responsible only to US and not people in Superior or Kearny or Maricopa.
Cities don't normally run under Republican or Democratic control like the Federal government does. You don't see (R) or (D) or (I) following councilmen's names. I agree, it would be nice to get some common logic back into government. Don't fool yourself, they may not have party designations behind their names but it isn't 100% non-partisan.
Have you any idea what it would cost a city to bring a company like the ones you mentioned into a newly formed city? Millions of dollars in concessions that we surely won't have or would require ourselves to remain solvent. Just look next door and see what it cost QC to bring in the shopping centers they now have. Years of sales tax revenue going back to the developer. We must deal with what we have, not what we wish would come or would like to see come as that may never happen. So just because something MIGHT be expensive we shouldn't do it? After the years of concessions QC will reap the benefits of the development and the revenues will come BACK to the town. Its called ROI....if there is an acceptable ROI for the town then the investment in the concessions is worth it. If we took your mindset as rule, no city in the United States would ever incorporate!?!!? Not only that if we were to bring a massive development like Motorola or Google or something like that what about the jobs that would bring to the area??? GE is building a new green energy R&D facility outside Detroit, MI and they are bring over 1,100 jobs to DETROIT!!! What if GE wanted to bring something like that out here? What would the impact be on our housing market--do you think it would help us out a little? Think outside the box History...
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History_101
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 10:40 pm |
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Chad,
It is good to see we both can agree and disagree without tossing barbs at one another. I believe we both are somewhat on the same page but maybe just reading it a bit different.
Like here, you stated, "Based on what I've read, we should do the same thing Gilbert did and start as a Town because a town doesn't have the same requirements of a city." May I ask where you read that? According to The League of Arizona Cities and Towns and I quote, "There really is no difference in the authority exercised by a city or a town, except that a city may adopt a charter." So what is the difference you are talking about? Cities and/or towns must provide the same services to their residents. No getting around it.
To incorporate as a city, a community must have a population of at least 3,000. Less than 3,000, you incorporate as a town. Additionally, if a city has a population of 3,500 or more, it has the right to adopt a charter and a ward system, while a town doesn't. I believe we meet all the requirements of a city.
Chad, I think outside of the box all the time; however, I guess you could call me a realist. One that has a concern for fact or reality and rejection of the impractical and visionary. I would like to see hard facts when it comes to incorporation as I'd hope other residents would too. I don't see how anyone could fully support incorporation without seeing all of the facts first. To me, this is going in with a closed mind.
By supporting annexation, I guess you could say I to would like to get out from under County control but I'm not convinced that a standalone city is the right way to go. If you do, then you must convince me as I'm sure there will be many others that will need convincing too.
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2 cents
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 10:19 pm |
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One thing at a time. I think I'll start with, hey Chad what is the breakdown of the 16 million you say Flagstaff gets? How much is for specific services that the community provides on behalf of the state? How much of that 16 mil is assigned for specific purposes and how much goes into the general fund to be used as the community wishes? Specifics boy, not generalities.
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Chad Roche
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 08:32 pm |
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History_101 wrote: Chad Roche wrote: History,
I'm not 100% disagreeing with you because you bring up many valid points. There is an underlying tone in your message that I dont' agree with. Let's say we do incorporate 80,000 people and we now get more money from the state than Flagstaff does, who says we have to run our city like Mesa, Gilbert, QC, or any other town in the state?! Why can't we be different!!! Why can't we "live within our means" and develop a budget based on what we HAVE not what we WANT.
Too often our governments operate under the mantra of spend spend spend....our state, neighboring states, and our Federal Governments are great examples of that and where has it gotten us!??!? I'm using hypothetical numbers but if the money we would get right off the bat was $20 million from the state and $5 million from property taxes and then we levy a 2.5% sales tax that gets us another $5 million and development fees, fees for service, impact fees and all the other fees that a city or town collects gets us another $2 million upfront. We now have a budget of $32 million dollars....we work backward from there and make sure that our spending is less than or equal to $32 million...why won't that work? It may mean that we don't get the library or we don't get a christmas decorating of Hunt Hwy or that we may not develop the downtown area for a few years, SO WHAT?!?!? nothing says we have to do what all the other cities and towns do to get themselves in trouble.
We need to go into this with the mentality that we aren't going to over-committ and overspend. We should even draft it into the municipal laws that the city council and mayor MUST have a balanced budget every year that can't include any more than a 0.25% increase in taxes or fees annually.
Why not START a city on republican (little "r" so no one get all excited) fiscally responsible principles????...
Chad,
Underlying tone? I never meant to sing you a song. I'm just asking for facts, not numbers that are being pulled out of the air. You have some hypothetical numbers in your post. I ask where did you come up with them? Are they something you pulled out of the air? I don't like to see numbers like this being tossed around without any validity to them as people start reading them and take them for gospel and before you know it, they become fact. You just can't take a factitious number and work backwards from there without knowing if that number is realistic and valid. Do you even know what services a city must provide their residents, how much each is going to cost, or for that matter, what services do the residents actually expect or want? Is this something a small group is once again going to decide for us? I never said I knew everything HIST. Yes the numbers were mostly pulled out of the air and they were used to make a point. The $20 million from the state is probably close considering Flagstaff gets around $16 million. As far as the services the residents want....that is a loaded gun. Government isn't around to always give the people whatever they want--it is there to uphold the law and protect the people according to said law. I'm not going to rant on this forever you can look at my other posts and see where I'm going. On the other hand, with incorporatiion people expect some things...I get that. I've ask this question many times and I'll try once again. Has anyone actually sat down and calculated how much money would actually come into a newly incorporated city from the different revenue streams and compare that to what this new city would actually be spending for the services a city must provide their residents? This is a very important step in any incorporation effort. People are going to ask some very hard questions when you put this before them and if you don't have the answers, you will fail much like the last efforts did. Is that what you want? Who says I'm running anything? I'm just a resident, like you, who has taken an interest in this. As far as some of the numbers for real....ARS 9-136 says that we get our fair share from the county and state in regard to collected taxes--I don't know what that is but I'm sure we can find out pretty easily based on other municipalities. Someone (pipeman) has said that we get $300 per household--ish which would come out to about $8 million which I think is a little low because Flagstaff gets $16 million just from the state. ARS will dictate everything the town or city is allowed to or has to do. Based on what I've read, we should do the same thing Gilbert did and start as a Town because a town doesn't have the same requirements of a city.
I'll agree that governments operate under the mantra of spend, spend, spend. But what are we doing here? We are creating another level of government that actually duplicates what we are now getting from Pinal County. You and others talk about "local control". If we can't control what our elected officials do in the county, how do you expect to control the ones elected to office in the city? Are we doing enough when it comes to county control? Are we attending the meetings, doing the research on the different items that comes before the different boards or committees, standing up for what we want or believe in, I think not. So what makes you think it will be different with a new level of government? What I see here is we have here is a small group that wants incorporation, a small group that opposes it and a very large group of apathetic people that just doesn't care until it starts hitting them in the pocket book. I agree that most people are apathetic but incorporating isn't just adding another level of government. Keep in mind that the Supervisors and the county have to be concerne with the ENTIRE county not just us. We can't "control" Bryan Martyn to simply bend to what we want, he has to be cognizant of the impact on the entire county. If we incorporate then the Mayor and Council are responsible only to US and not people in Superior or Kearny or Maricopa.
Cities don't normally run under Republican or Democratic control like the Federal government does. You don't see (R) or (D) or (I) following councilmen's names. I agree, it would be nice to get some common logic back into government. Don't fool yourself, they may not have party designations behind their names but it isn't 100% non-partisan.
Have you any idea what it would cost a city to bring a company like the ones you mentioned into a newly formed city? Millions of dollars in concessions that we surely won't have or would require ourselves to remain solvent. Just look next door and see what it cost QC to bring in the shopping centers they now have. Years of sales tax revenue going back to the developer. We must deal with what we have, not what we wish would come or would like to see come as that may never happen. So just because something MIGHT be expensive we shouldn't do it? After the years of concessions QC will reap the benefits of the development and the revenues will come BACK to the town. Its called ROI....if there is an acceptable ROI for the town then the investment in the concessions is worth it. If we took your mindset as rule, no city in the United States would ever incorporate!?!!? Not only that if we were to bring a massive development like Motorola or Google or something like that what about the jobs that would bring to the area??? GE is building a new green energy R&D facility outside Detroit, MI and they are bring over 1,100 jobs to DETROIT!!! What if GE wanted to bring something like that out here? What would the impact be on our housing market--do you think it would help us out a little? Think outside the box History...
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History_101
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 12:26 pm |
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Chad Roche wrote: History,
I'm not 100% disagreeing with you because you bring up many valid points. There is an underlying tone in your message that I dont' agree with. Let's say we do incorporate 80,000 people and we now get more money from the state than Flagstaff does, who says we have to run our city like Mesa, Gilbert, QC, or any other town in the state?! Why can't we be different!!! Why can't we "live within our means" and develop a budget based on what we HAVE not what we WANT.
Too often our governments operate under the mantra of spend spend spend....our state, neighboring states, and our Federal Governments are great examples of that and where has it gotten us!??!? I'm using hypothetical numbers but if the money we would get right off the bat was $20 million from the state and $5 million from property taxes and then we levy a 2.5% sales tax that gets us another $5 million and development fees, fees for service, impact fees and all the other fees that a city or town collects gets us another $2 million upfront. We now have a budget of $32 million dollars....we work backward from there and make sure that our spending is less than or equal to $32 million...why won't that work? It may mean that we don't get the library or we don't get a christmas decorating of Hunt Hwy or that we may not develop the downtown area for a few years, SO WHAT?!?!? nothing says we have to do what all the other cities and towns do to get themselves in trouble.
We need to go into this with the mentality that we aren't going to over-committ and overspend. We should even draft it into the municipal laws that the city council and mayor MUST have a balanced budget every year that can't include any more than a 0.25% increase in taxes or fees annually.
Why not START a city on republican (little "r" so no one get all excited) fiscally responsible principles????...
Chad,
Underlying tone? I never meant to sing you a song. I'm just asking for facts, not numbers that are being pulled out of the air. You have some hypothetical numbers in your post. I ask where did you come up with them? Are they something you pulled out of the air? I don't like to see numbers like this being tossed around without any validity to them as people start reading them and take them for gospel and before you know it, they become fact. You just can't take a factitious number and work backwards from there without knowing if that number is realistic and valid. Do you even know what services a city must provide their residents, how much each is going to cost, or for that matter, what services do the residents actually expect or want? Is this something a small group is once again going to decide for us?
I've ask this question many times and I'll try once again. Has anyone actually sat down and calculated how much money would actually come into a newly incorporated city from the different revenue streams and compare that to what this new city would actually be spending for the services a city must provide their residents? This is a very important step in any incorporation effort. People are going to ask some very hard questions when you put this before them and if you don't have the answers, you will fail much like the last efforts did. Is that what you want?
I'll agree that governments operate under the mantra of spend, spend, spend. But what are we doing here? We are creating another level of government that actually duplicates what we are now getting from Pinal County. You and others talk about "local control". If we can't control what our elected officials do in the county, how do you expect to control the ones elected to office in the city? Are we doing enough when it comes to county control? Are we attending the meetings, doing the research on the different items that comes before the different boards or committees, standing up for what we want or believe in, I think not. So what makes you think it will be different with a new level of government? What I see here is we have here is a small group that wants incorporation, a small group that opposes it and a very large group of apathetic people that just doesn't care until it starts hitting them in the pocket book.
Cities don't normally run under Republican or Democratic control like the Federal government does. You don't see (R) or (D) or (I) following councilmen's names. I agree, it would be nice to get some common logic back into government.
Have you any idea what it would cost a city to bring a company like the ones you mentioned into a newly formed city? Millions of dollars in concessions that we surely won't have or would require ourselves to remain solvent. Just look next door and see what it cost QC to bring in the shopping centers they now have. Years of sales tax revenue going back to the developer. We must deal with what we have, not what we wish would come or would like to see come as that may never happen.
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History_101
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 12:21 pm |
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pipeman wrote: History_101 wrote: Pipe,
You speak of Anthem. Have you ask anyone living there just how much they are paying in County and City taxes a year? I looked into buying there and for a $300,000.00 home, the taxes would have been over $6,000.00 a year. Not for me; however, that is what our residents will have to look forward to should we incorporate. Of course, I have spoken with someone who lives there. I also own a home there. Yet once again you are proving why annexation wont be as financially sound as you are suggesting. Ths is exactly what we could expect here from either town. We would be covering the addition costs to the town, not the whloe town.
Pipe,
You own a home in Florence? Who would have ever known by the way you so dislike the town.
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flygad1
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 09:12 am |
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Pipeman
You don't know what I am part of ! I am part of Pinal , I am the Gadfly on the wall , and the fly in the incorporation ointment!
HA 
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pipeman
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 07:37 am |
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Chad Roche wrote: nybrian wrote: I started this thread in the hope that we could not only discuss the costs---which we will need to know beforehand----but also to discuss how we expect becoming a city will affect us. When I think of a city I think of police and fire service. I think of a library. I think of parks, parades, fireworks, and tree lightings.
I live in San Tan Heights, so my home will be at the northern edge of the city. I usually get to Hunt Highway and turn left towards Queen Creek, although I do go to the Walmart, Starbucks, Don Pedro's, and the Gym on a fairly regular basis.
I would like someone to sell me on why my life would be better if we incorporated next year. Because I understand that if we would have done it 5 years ago, we could have better planned the area. But now, I think I'm fine with staying the way we are. All of the things that I want from a city are already provided or could easily be provided.
1. We have police service. My HOA pays for extra patrols, and with our awesome neighborhood watch program I feel pretty good.
2. We should investigate starting a fire district to better spread the cost of fire service throughout the community. I'm sure this could be done without as much expense as Rural metro (Does anyone know what percent of homes here are subscribers? I'm guessing less than 50%, which means costs would be MUCH lower with a required participation).
3. A library. Whether we incorporate or not this is something we need to get on top of. I know there have been plans in the past for a library---certainly this is going to take a while, but I believe Pinal will come through if we can get our 80,000 residents to start to vote. (I'm thinking that with our supervisors going from 3 to 5 we will get a stronger voice out here).
4. Love the parks in my community, plus San Tan Regional, plus we can always use QC's parks (until they start requiring proof of residency).
5. Community Events---Our Hoa's take care of this. Johnson Utilities has taken care of this. Our Chamber of Commerce can take care of this. And again, we can always attend QC's events.
6. Roads---I'm not believing that Pinal can fix Hunt Highway. But from what I understand Pinal will continue to be responsible for Hunt regardless of the vote. Until someone takes Pinal to court for the inevitable death and property damage from that road it's not going to change.
So I'm just not seeing where someone from the northern border, in a subdivision, really benefits. I guess if you are a landowner in a yet to be developed part of the county you will benefit from the roads, utilities, and other services that incorporation will bring (at the cost of everyone).
Thanks for your time. This isn't an attack on incorporation, or the people who are advocating it. I like you guys, and wish you were successful years ago. But right now I am having a hard time figuring out why this benefits me, specifically. Why not work on improving our area without going all the way to cityhood?
NY (and anyone whom agrees with him)
You are approaching incorporation from a mentality of "What can the government do for me?" and, I"m not trying to offend, that is not the point of government at any level. There are too many people in this country who have this mindset and that is the reason we are in the situation we're in now--we are a nation of "gimme" who want the government to take care of everything for us.
Incorporation isn't about building things or giving things to the residents, in my opinion. Incorporating is about bringing our government down a level to a closer control by the residents. It is about increasing our representation and building a community where commercial development wants to come and where we can become more than a bedroom community that supports the economies of Tempe, Scottsdale, QC, Mesa, or Gilbert. It is also about protecting the interests of the people who reside here such as our hospital and other major development like that. I may be very wrong but I've heard rumors that Westcor owns land out here...I want to make sure those dollars (if they come) stay in OUR area. That is what we need to build the library, police department, fire department, public works, etc.
Wouldn't you like the next Google or Microsoft to set up HQ in San Tan Valley? I sure would. You have to keep in mind that we are a newborn community that happens to have the population greater than many 200 yr old cities in the country so we can't get everything we "want" right away. We have to build slowly and incorporation is only the first step; ya know the whole walk before running thing!! Too many people think when we incorporate we have to get to the level of Phoenix or Mesa overnight and that is a fallacy--it will take us DECADES to get there.
Baby steps.....baby steps......
BRAVO Chad, you nailed it.
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pcresident
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 07:25 am |
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pipeman wrote: nybrian wrote: I started this thread in the hope that we could not only discuss the costs---which we will need to know beforehand----but also to discuss how we expect becoming a city will affect us. When I think of a city I think of police and fire service. I think of a library. I think of parks, parades, fireworks, and tree lightings. How about local representation, how about a local voice, how about your taxes staying in your community and not going to install new roads in Casa Grande, or tearing down the beat up trailers in Florence.
I live in San Tan Heights, so my home will be at the northern edge of the city. I usually get to Hunt Highway and turn left towards Queen Creek, although I do go to the Walmart, Starbucks, Don Pedro's, and the Gym on a fairly regular basis. Maybe the new city will put a tool booth in at the entrance exit of your subdivision so we can take your money for our city and track your commings and goings within our city. LOL
I would like someone to sell me on why my life would be better if we incorporated next year. Because I understand that if we would have done it 5 years ago, we could have better planned the area. But now, I think I'm fine with staying the way we are. All of the things that I want from a city are already provided or could easily be provided.
1. We have police service. My HOA pays for extra patrols, and with our awesome neighborhood watch program I feel pretty good. Thats great for your HOA, not everyone has the extra patrols. Remember that this district we are in is muc bigger than we are, those deputies can be puuled to another district at any given time. Our city, would be much smaller than this beats district, which would give us better coverage.
2. We should investigate starting a fire district to better spread the cost of fire service throughout the community. I'm sure this could be done without as much expense as Rural metro (Does anyone know what percent of homes here are subscribers? I'm guessing less than 50%, which means costs would be MUCH lower with a required participation). That wont better spread the costs. Don't know where you got that wrong information from. Most fire districts pay upwards to 3/4 dollars per 100 assessed value. So you would be willing to pay upwards of 3-6 grand a year just to have a fire district? Not me.
3. A library. Whether we incorporate or not this is something we need to get on top of. I know there have been plans in the past for a library---certainly this is going to take a while, but I believe Pinal will come through if we can get our 80,000 residents to start to vote. (I'm thinking that with our supervisors going from 3 to 5 we will get a stronger voice out here). Yes they will come through eventually whether we are a city or not. This has no bearing on incorporating or not.
4. Love the parks in my community, plus San Tan Regional, plus we can always use QC's parks (until they start requiring proof of residency). San Tan Reg. is a Maricopa park, what will you do if they start to require proof of residency?
5. Community Events---Our Hoa's take care of this. Johnson Utilities has taken care of this. Our Chamber of Commerce can take care of this. And again, we can always attend QC's events. Not may HOA's put on any type of event. Our chamber does nothing for us either.
6. Roads---I'm not believing that Pinal can fix Hunt Highway. But from what I understand Pinal will continue to be responsible for Hunt regardless of the vote. Until someone takes Pinal to court for the inevitable death and property damage from that road it's not going to change. Pinal was ready to start,, till the bottom fell out. It will turn around and get done. Yes, the county will retain Hunt and negotiations can take place for them retain more roads than that.
So I'm just not seeing where someone from the northern border, in a subdivision, really benefits. I guess if you are a landowner in ag TOQC to ann yet to be developed part of the county you will benefit from the roads, utilities, and other services that incorporation will bring (at the cost of everyone). Well sounds like your subdivision is all set, so might I suggest that you all beg TOQC to annex you as see how far that gets you. Once again, another thinking of themselves and not the community as a whole. You all may be set there, but there are many/probably most that do not have the benefit of a good HOA as you suggest you have. Drive around and look at some of the parks in many subdivisions and see if you would allow your children to play there with all the grafitti, the broken parts and pieces. No disrespect, but this is about more than you and your subdivision.
Thanks for your time. This isn't an attack on incorporation, or the people who are advocating it. I like you guys, and wish you were successful years ago. But right now I am having a hard time figuring out why this benefits me, specifically. Why not work on improving our area without going all the way to cityhood? Ever hear of taxation without representation?
I'm the chairperson for the San Tan Heights Lifestyle (Events) committee and we are planning an event for the end of september- An AREA event- and we are looking for vendors to help make it a success!
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 07:06 am |
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nybrian wrote: I started this thread in the hope that we could not only discuss the costs---which we will need to know beforehand----but also to discuss how we expect becoming a city will affect us. When I think of a city I think of police and fire service. I think of a library. I think of parks, parades, fireworks, and tree lightings.
I live in San Tan Heights, so my home will be at the northern edge of the city. I usually get to Hunt Highway and turn left towards Queen Creek, although I do go to the Walmart, Starbucks, Don Pedro's, and the Gym on a fairly regular basis.
I would like someone to sell me on why my life would be better if we incorporated next year. Because I understand that if we would have done it 5 years ago, we could have better planned the area. But now, I think I'm fine with staying the way we are. All of the things that I want from a city are already provided or could easily be provided.
1. We have police service. My HOA pays for extra patrols, and with our awesome neighborhood watch program I feel pretty good.
2. We should investigate starting a fire district to better spread the cost of fire service throughout the community. I'm sure this could be done without as much expense as Rural metro (Does anyone know what percent of homes here are subscribers? I'm guessing less than 50%, which means costs would be MUCH lower with a required participation).
3. A library. Whether we incorporate or not this is something we need to get on top of. I know there have been plans in the past for a library---certainly this is going to take a while, but I believe Pinal will come through if we can get our 80,000 residents to start to vote. (I'm thinking that with our supervisors going from 3 to 5 we will get a stronger voice out here).
4. Love the parks in my community, plus San Tan Regional, plus we can always use QC's parks (until they start requiring proof of residency).
5. Community Events---Our Hoa's take care of this. Johnson Utilities has taken care of this. Our Chamber of Commerce can take care of this. And again, we can always attend QC's events.
6. Roads---I'm not believing that Pinal can fix Hunt Highway. But from what I understand Pinal will continue to be responsible for Hunt regardless of the vote. Until someone takes Pinal to court for the inevitable death and property damage from that road it's not going to change.
So I'm just not seeing where someone from the northern border, in a subdivision, really benefits. I guess if you are a landowner in a yet to be developed part of the county you will benefit from the roads, utilities, and other services that incorporation will bring (at the cost of everyone).
Thanks for your time. This isn't an attack on incorporation, or the people who are advocating it. I like you guys, and wish you were successful years ago. But right now I am having a hard time figuring out why this benefits me, specifically. Why not work on improving our area without going all the way to cityhood?
NY (and anyone whom agrees with him)
You are approaching incorporation from a mentality of "What can the government do for me?" and, I"m not trying to offend, that is not the point of government at any level. There are too many people in this country who have this mindset and that is the reason we are in the situation we're in now--we are a nation of "gimme" who want the government to take care of everything for us.
Incorporation isn't about building things or giving things to the residents, in my opinion. Incorporating is about bringing our government down a level to a closer control by the residents. It is about increasing our representation and building a community where commercial development wants to come and where we can become more than a bedroom community that supports the economies of Tempe, Scottsdale, QC, Mesa, or Gilbert. It is also about protecting the interests of the people who reside here such as our hospital and other major development like that. I may be very wrong but I've heard rumors that Westcor owns land out here...I want to make sure those dollars (if they come) stay in OUR area. That is what we need to build the library, police department, fire department, public works, etc.
Wouldn't you like the next Google or Microsoft to set up HQ in San Tan Valley? I sure would. You have to keep in mind that we are a newborn community that happens to have the population greater than many 200 yr old cities in the country so we can't get everything we "want" right away. We have to build slowly and incorporation is only the first step; ya know the whole walk before running thing!! Too many people think when we incorporate we have to get to the level of Phoenix or Mesa overnight and that is a fallacy--it will take us DECADES to get there.
Baby steps.....baby steps......
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 06:53 am |
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History_101 wrote: Pipe,
I can't believe all of the costs associated with incorporation have already been provided. As Jerry Maguire once said, "Show me the Money". If you are that far along already, I can only believe it is being done behind the residents back once again.
So, if the community assessment is done, where is it? Is this some big surprise that you or someone is going to spring upon us late one night? Or is this just smoke coming from the pipe?
Take a look at your JU bill. See the line Water AZ Superfund Tax and Sewer AZ Privilege Tax. Now look at your Mesa gas bill. Check out the other fees. These are all taxes that the utility companies are passing along to the residents and they didn't even have to raise their rates to do so. Now don't you think local city taxes will also be passed along in a similar manner. Don't be so naive.
Whether you annex or incorporate you may have to build "additional" fire stations or police stations. Are you telling me the current ones are going away? I think not. I'm talking about the million dollar buildings you are going to have to put up to house the city working folk plus the land they sit on. You will need administrative buildings, probably a jail to house local offenders, a court house, plus, plus, plus. Where is the Town Manager, Town Clerk, Public Works folks, Public Safety, Parks & Recreation, Human Resources, Marketing, Finance & Administration, Economic Develop, Community Development and others going to work out of, their homes? How about the money it is going to take to pay their salaries, insurance benefits and retirement?
Do you really think you will get a fire department without additional taxes? The monies that comes in from the County and State surely won't cover that expense. Why did QC have to impose an additional tax to support such a venture? Because there wasn't enough money in their budget to do so.
You speak of Anthem. Have you ask anyone living there just how much they are paying in County and City taxes a year? I looked into buying there and for a $300,000.00 home, the taxes would have been over $6,000.00 a year. Not for me; however, that is what our residents will have to look forward to should we incorporate.
Until someone can show me a realistic budget including all of the income and expenses I think I'll continue to hold out for that impossible dream. Annexation.
History,
I'm not 100% disagreeing with you because you bring up many valid points. There is an underlying tone in your message that I dont' agree with. Let's say we do incorporate 80,000 people and we now get more money from the state than Flagstaff does, who says we have to run our city like Mesa, Gilbert, QC, or any other town in the state?! Why can't we be different!!! Why can't we "live within our means" and develop a budget based on what we HAVE not what we WANT.
Too often our governments operate under the mantra of spend spend spend....our state, neighboring states, and our Federal Governments are great examples of that and where has it gotten us!??!? I'm using hypothetical numbers but if the money we would get right off the bat was $20 million from the state and $5 million from property taxes and then we levy a 2.5% sales tax that gets us another $5 million and development fees, fees for service, impact fees and all the other fees that a city or town collects gets us another $2 million upfront. We now have a budget of $32 million dollars....we work backward from there and make sure that our spending is less than or equal to $32 million...why won't that work? It may mean that we don't get the library or we don't get a christmas decorating of Hunt Hwy or that we may not develop the downtown area for a few years, SO WHAT?!?!? nothing says we have to do what all the other cities and towns do to get themselves in trouble.
We need to go into this with the mentality that we aren't going to over-committ and overspend. We should even draft it into the municipal laws that the city council and mayor MUST have a balanced budget every year that can't include any more than a 0.25% increase in taxes or fees annually.
Why not START a city on republican (little "r" so no one get all excited) fiscally responsible principles????...
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pipeman
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 06:29 am |
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nybrian wrote: I started this thread in the hope that we could not only discuss the costs---which we will need to know beforehand----but also to discuss how we expect becoming a city will affect us. When I think of a city I think of police and fire service. I think of a library. I think of parks, parades, fireworks, and tree lightings. How about local representation, how about a local voice, how about your taxes staying in your community and not going to install new roads in Casa Grande, or tearing down the beat up trailers in Florence.
I live in San Tan Heights, so my home will be at the northern edge of the city. I usually get to Hunt Highway and turn left towards Queen Creek, although I do go to the Walmart, Starbucks, Don Pedro's, and the Gym on a fairly regular basis. Maybe the new city will put a tool booth in at the entrance exit of your subdivision so we can take your money for our city and track your commings and goings within our city. LOL
I would like someone to sell me on why my life would be better if we incorporated next year. Because I understand that if we would have done it 5 years ago, we could have better planned the area. But now, I think I'm fine with staying the way we are. All of the things that I want from a city are already provided or could easily be provided.
1. We have police service. My HOA pays for extra patrols, and with our awesome neighborhood watch program I feel pretty good. Thats great for your HOA, not everyone has the extra patrols. Remember that this district we are in is muc bigger than we are, those deputies can be puuled to another district at any given time. Our city, would be much smaller than this beats district, which would give us better coverage.
2. We should investigate starting a fire district to better spread the cost of fire service throughout the community. I'm sure this could be done without as much expense as Rural metro (Does anyone know what percent of homes here are subscribers? I'm guessing less than 50%, which means costs would be MUCH lower with a required participation). That wont better spread the costs. Don't know where you got that wrong information from. Most fire districts pay upwards to 3/4 dollars per 100 assessed value. So you would be willing to pay upwards of 3-6 grand a year just to have a fire district? Not me.
3. A library. Whether we incorporate or not this is something we need to get on top of. I know there have been plans in the past for a library---certainly this is going to take a while, but I believe Pinal will come through if we can get our 80,000 residents to start to vote. (I'm thinking that with our supervisors going from 3 to 5 we will get a stronger voice out here). Yes they will come through eventually whether we are a city or not. This has no bearing on incorporating or not.
4. Love the parks in my community, plus San Tan Regional, plus we can always use QC's parks (until they start requiring proof of residency). San Tan Reg. is a Maricopa park, what will you do if they start to require proof of residency?
5. Community Events---Our Hoa's take care of this. Johnson Utilities has taken care of this. Our Chamber of Commerce can take care of this. And again, we can always attend QC's events. Not may HOA's put on any type of event. Our chamber does nothing for us either.
6. Roads---I'm not believing that Pinal can fix Hunt Highway. But from what I understand Pinal will continue to be responsible for Hunt regardless of the vote. Until someone takes Pinal to court for the inevitable death and property damage from that road it's not going to change. Pinal was ready to start,, till the bottom fell out. It will turn around and get done. Yes, the county will retain Hunt and negotiations can take place for them retain more roads than that.
So I'm just not seeing where someone from the northern border, in a subdivision, really benefits. I guess if you are a landowner in ag TOQC to ann yet to be developed part of the county you will benefit from the roads, utilities, and other services that incorporation will bring (at the cost of everyone). Well sounds like your subdivision is all set, so might I suggest that you all beg TOQC to annex you as see how far that gets you. Once again, another thinking of themselves and not the community as a whole. You all may be set there, but there are many/probably most that do not have the benefit of a good HOA as you suggest you have. Drive around and look at some of the parks in many subdivisions and see if you would allow your children to play there with all the grafitti, the broken parts and pieces. No disrespect, but this is about more than you and your subdivision.
Thanks for your time. This isn't an attack on incorporation, or the people who are advocating it. I like you guys, and wish you were successful years ago. But right now I am having a hard time figuring out why this benefits me, specifically. Why not work on improving our area without going all the way to cityhood? Ever hear of taxation without representation?
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pipeman
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 06:06 am |
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flygad1 wrote: nybrian
Why are you sure to explain you like the incorporation forces? Do you think they will play nice ?
You seem to be asking the right questions. I will find it quite amusing the new answers they give ! The Gold Canyon area had the same debate ten years ago.
It will be fun to watch all the different new ways a City will save you all from paradise!
Elliott Fisher
Pinal Independent.
of course they will play nice. Its a new day. Its about the community....... for which you are not a part of.. REMEMBER THAT.Last edited on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 06:06 am by pipeman
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flygad1
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 03:54 am |
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nybrian
Why are you sure to explain you like the incorporation forces? Do you think they will play nice ?
You seem to be asking the right questions. I will find it quite amusing the new answers they give ! The Gold Canyon area had the same debate ten years ago.
It will be fun to watch all the different new ways a City will save you all from paradise!
Elliott Fisher
Pinal Independent.
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nybrian
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 02:29 am |
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Oakland wrote: You're on the southern border.
I guess I am on the northern border of the southern portion. What I was trying to get across is that I will spend more time going through QC than San Tan Valley. I'm sure people in Ahwatukee probably identify more with Chandler than Phoenix. They probably find themselves in Chandler for much of their shopping and dining. I need to pass through QC many times a week, so I will probably find myself using their restaurants and shopping fairly often.
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Oakland
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 01:45 am |
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| You're on the southern border.
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nybrian
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 12:04 am |
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I started this thread in the hope that we could not only discuss the costs---which we will need to know beforehand----but also to discuss how we expect becoming a city will affect us. When I think of a city I think of police and fire service. I think of a library. I think of parks, parades, fireworks, and tree lightings.
I live in San Tan Heights, so my home will be at the northern edge of the city. I usually get to Hunt Highway and turn left towards Queen Creek, although I do go to the Walmart, Starbucks, Don Pedro's, and the Gym on a fairly regular basis.
I would like someone to sell me on why my life would be better if we incorporated next year. Because I understand that if we would have done it 5 years ago, we could have better planned the area. But now, I think I'm fine with staying the way we are. All of the things that I want from a city are already provided or could easily be provided.
1. We have police service. My HOA pays for extra patrols, and with our awesome neighborhood watch program I feel pretty good.
2. We should investigate starting a fire district to better spread the cost of fire service throughout the community. I'm sure this could be done without as much expense as Rural metro (Does anyone know what percent of homes here are subscribers? I'm guessing less than 50%, which means costs would be MUCH lower with a required participation).
3. A library. Whether we incorporate or not this is something we need to get on top of. I know there have been plans in the past for a library---certainly this is going to take a while, but I believe Pinal will come through if we can get our 80,000 residents to start to vote. (I'm thinking that with our supervisors going from 3 to 5 we will get a stronger voice out here).
4. Love the parks in my community, plus San Tan Regional, plus we can always use QC's parks (until they start requiring proof of residency).
5. Community Events---Our Hoa's take care of this. Johnson Utilities has taken care of this. Our Chamber of Commerce can take care of this. And again, we can always attend QC's events.
6. Roads---I'm not believing that Pinal can fix Hunt Highway. But from what I understand Pinal will continue to be responsible for Hunt regardless of the vote. Until someone takes Pinal to court for the inevitable death and property damage from that road it's not going to change.
So I'm just not seeing where someone from the northern border, in a subdivision, really benefits. I guess if you are a landowner in a yet to be developed part of the county you will benefit from the roads, utilities, and other services that incorporation will bring (at the cost of everyone).
Thanks for your time. This isn't an attack on incorporation, or the people who are advocating it. I like you guys, and wish you were successful years ago. But right now I am having a hard time figuring out why this benefits me, specifically. Why not work on improving our area without going all the way to cityhood?
Last edited on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 12:05 am by nybrian
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2 cents
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 11:18 pm |
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I hope you are aware of a lot more than I am. I do hope. Perhaps the responses and comments to History's discussion are vague for a reason. I hope you and others have been working behind the scenes and are not ready to unveil your secret. I hope.
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pipeman
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 10:36 pm |
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2 cents wrote: History, you are righ on the mark. There have been the feeble attempts to incorporate in the past but feeble is the key word here. You are correct, the last ones have been feeble. Who's to say this was will be/is? Noone has really set down and, with the aid and cost of those who know how to do these sorts of things, crunched all the numbers that are associated with all the minimum requirements of incorporation. REALLY??Nothin more than a pipe dream at the moment. Guess only time will tell huh?Where is the group that has formed that will make all of this happen? I've not seen or heard anything more than ether speak so far. Just because one does not see something, does not mean that something is not out there. Look how long GSATC worked behind the scene developing themselves before they told the public.
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pipeman
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 10:33 pm |
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History_101 wrote: Pipe,
I can't believe all of the costs associated with incorporation have already been provided. As Jerry Maguire once said, "Show me the Money". If you are that far along already, I can only believe it is being done behind the residents back once again. One would be surprised wouldn't they? Of course setting something like this up would be done prior to bringing it to the public, would be a waste of time to do so any earlier wouldn't ya say? Get all the hard work done , prepare budgets, boundaries, etc.. then present it. If it is not done that way, the team would get nowhere, with all the dreamers out there hoping one day TOF or TOQC will come to save them.......IT ISN'T HAPPENING. So time to move on and help ourselves.
So, if the community assessment is done, where is it? Is this some big surprise that you or someone is going to spring upon us late one night? Or is this just smoke coming from the pipe?
Take a look at your JU bill. See the line Water AZ Superfund Tax and Sewer AZ Privilege Tax. Once again the C.C. would have to allow him to pass anything off to us, and that is a very long shot. Now look at your Mesa gas bill. Check out the other fees. These are all taxes that the utility companies are passing along to the residents and they didn't even have to raise their rates to do so. Now don't you think local city taxes will also be passed along in a similar manner. Don't be so naive. Naive, I am the one being realistic. You are so dead set against incorporation and don't want to give up on what 2 cents calls a "pipe" dream that you are so unwilling to see the whole picture.
Whether you annex or incorporate you may have to build "additional" fire stations or police stations. Are you telling me the current ones are going away? Same quetion...are you saying these will go away if we incorprate? I think not. I think not. I'm talking about the million dollar buildings you are going to have to put up to house the city working folk plus the land they sit on. You will need administrative buildings, probably a jail to house local offenders, a court house, plus, plus, plus. Where is the Town Manager, Town Clerk, Public Works folks, Public Safety, Parks & Recreation, Human Resources, Marketing, Finance & Administration, Economic Develop, Community Development and others going to work out of, their homes? How about the money it is going to take to pay their salaries, insurance benefits and retirement?
Do you really think you will get a fire department without additional taxes? AHHHHH, no. Where di this come from? Left field. Who suggested such a thing? The monies that comes in from the County and State surely won't cover that expense. Why did QC have to impose an additional tax to support such a venture? Because there wasn't enough money in their budget to do so.
You speak of Anthem. Have you ask anyone living there just how much they are paying in County and City taxes a year? I looked into buying there and for a $300,000.00 home, the taxes would have been over $6,000.00 a year. Not for me; however, that is what our residents will have to look forward to should we incorporate. Of course, I have spoken with someone who lives there. I also own a home there. Yet once again you are proving why annexation wont be as financially sound as you are suggesting. Ths is exactly what we could expect here from either town. We would be covering the addition costs to the town, not the whloe town.
Until someone can show me a realistic budget including all of the income and expenses I think I'll continue to hold out for that impossible dream. Annexation. Hold away H.
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2 cents
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:17 pm |
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History, you are righ on the mark. There have been the feeble attempts to incorporate in the past but feeble is the key word here. Noone has really set down and, with the aid and cost of those who know how to do these sorts of things, crunched all the numbers that are associated with all the minimum requirements of incorporation. Nothin more than a pipe dream at the moment. Where is the group that has formed that will make all of this happen? I've not seen or heard anything more than ether speak so far.
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History_101
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:05 pm |
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Pipe,
I can't believe all of the costs associated with incorporation have already been provided. As Jerry Maguire once said, "Show me the Money". If you are that far along already, I can only believe it is being done behind the residents back once again.
So, if the community assessment is done, where is it? Is this some big surprise that you or someone is going to spring upon us late one night? Or is this just smoke coming from the pipe?
Take a look at your JU bill. See the line Water AZ Superfund Tax and Sewer AZ Privilege Tax. Now look at your Mesa gas bill. Check out the other fees. These are all taxes that the utility companies are passing along to the residents and they didn't even have to raise their rates to do so. Now don't you think local city taxes will also be passed along in a similar manner. Don't be so naive.
Whether you annex or incorporate you may have to build "additional" fire stations or police stations. Are you telling me the current ones are going away? I think not. I'm talking about the million dollar buildings you are going to have to put up to house the city working folk plus the land they sit on. You will need administrative buildings, probably a jail to house local offenders, a court house, plus, plus, plus. Where is the Town Manager, Town Clerk, Public Works folks, Public Safety, Parks & Recreation, Human Resources, Marketing, Finance & Administration, Economic Develop, Community Development and others going to work out of, their homes? How about the money it is going to take to pay their salaries, insurance benefits and retirement?
Do you really think you will get a fire department without additional taxes? The monies that comes in from the County and State surely won't cover that expense. Why did QC have to impose an additional tax to support such a venture? Because there wasn't enough money in their budget to do so.
You speak of Anthem. Have you ask anyone living there just how much they are paying in County and City taxes a year? I looked into buying there and for a $300,000.00 home, the taxes would have been over $6,000.00 a year. Not for me; however, that is what our residents will have to look forward to should we incorporate.
Until someone can show me a realistic budget including all of the income and expenses I think I'll continue to hold out for that impossible dream. Annexation.
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pipeman
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 07:06 am |
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History_101 wrote: No one can move this area into incorporation by themselves. At this point in time since the area has grown to a size larger than many cities in Arizona, it will be quite the chore or undertaking.
In some prior posts, you gave some opinions regarding police and fire services and this is all well and good, but there are many other things to consider way before you start thinking about services.
First, who is going to fund this incorporation drive? Funding an incorporation drive is a formidable task. Donors and those organizing the drive are responsible for all costs incurred before incorporation, and these costs are not refunded after the city or town successfully incorporates. Be prepared to incur the following costs:
• Attorney-related costs
• Engineering-related costs, such as for drawing boundaries
• Fees to the county recorder's office for lists of registered voters
• Costs associated with obtaining budget estimates and other community assessments
• Costs associated with flyers and pamphlets publicizing incorporation
• Costs associated with dinners, coffees, and other informational public meetings
Incorporation drives are governed by Arizona’s political campaign contribution laws, which require that reports of all contributions and expenses be made available to the general public. Furthermore, personal and corporate contributions are restricted to a maximum of $300 per contributor. And who's to say that most if not all of these associated costs as you pointed out have not been provided for already?
Has anyone sat down and done a community assessment? Or are we just bloviating as you put it to incorporate? I've said many times it is easy to say "let's incorporate", but it is a much bigger task then just those two words. Before starting an incorporation effort, it is important that the unincorporated community conduct a thorough community assessment. While there is no legal requirement to conduct a community assessment, the decision whether to incorporate should be a well-informed one. The information accumulated during this step can later be used to justify support for or opposition to incorporation, and to inform voters. If the community does incorporate, then this information can be useful to the first town council. What to include in a community assessment:
• Analyze the reasons both for incorporating and for not incorporating.
• Analyze any past efforts to incorporate or change governmental forms and boundaries.
• Decide where the boundaries will fall.
• Analyze the community’s characteristics, strengths, weaknesses, and major issues.
• Analyze existing services and governing arrangements.
• Estimate potential revenues.
• Estimate potential expenditures, including what services the town wants to provide and how they will be provided.
• Analyze alternatives to incorporation: status quo, county formation, annexation, special districts, community councils, and colonies. Again, who is to say that most if all this list has not been accomplished yet?
You talk about bringing builders on board and gaining their support. I'm not sure if you were here for the prior incorporation attempts, but the builders were strongly opposed to incorporation. They were sold a song and a dance when Maricopa City incorporated and they all got burned after incorporation. They were not ready to have that happen again.
Utility companies also have a vested interest in incorporation. Cities have a bad habit of placing additional taxes upon utilities. These fees must then come out of their bottom line or it is passed on to the residents. It isn't hard to figure who will be paying these extra fees. It surely isn't the utility company. this is going to depend on which utiltiy company being spoken about. Llet's say ist' JU, are we sure that AZDEQ would even allow JU to raise their rates based on a utility fanchinse tax? I think it would be a long shot for AZDEQ to allow JU to raise their charges.
As many of you know, I oppose incorporation into a standalone city. No one has shown me how such an effort can be funded and I'm not talking about the incorporation drive. All one has to do is look at Mesa. Mesa is full of small retail outlets on every street you drive on plus they have very large malls that generates loads of sales tax revenue. If I remember correctly, not too long ago they were having budget problems. How can we expect to make it with the small amount of retail that currently exists within our community? I don't buy the adage, "If we build it they will come."
I fully support annexation. I say it is time we start a petition drive to be annexed into either Queen Creek or Florence. To many hard feelings out here from people towards TOQC due to many things you mentioned (being made to feel like 2nd class citizen, who in their right mind would want to be annexed into Florence. Again, our tax monioes would not be spent in :our" community again, this time it would go into Florence to clean up their town, fix their courthouse, clean up the blight in their town. No thanks. We can do just fine spending our money in "our" own backyard.Our developments already have the utilities cities must provide their residents. Our roads are new and require little upkeep. And more importantly, they already have a government structure in place. One wouldn't be starting from scratch going this route. A much cheaper route for our residents. You just provided good reasons that it wont cost highyl as you are claiming. Our developments already have the utilities cities must provide, iur roads are new and require little upkeep. We are already paying for everything we have out here. If we annexed, we would have to build new fire stations, police stations, purchase fire trucks, rescue squads, police cars, etc.. "WE" would have to pay for it, the residents of either town will not. It will fall to us here, just like owners in Anthem had to pay for Hunt in front of them. Noone in the county paid for this, just those home owners.
You say Queen Creek and Florence doesn't want us? Queen Creek and Florence both love the money we spend in their towns. Our supposed 80,000 residents generates much needed sales tax revenue when we spend our hard earned money in either place. What if we just drove a little further, say Gilbert, Chandler or Mesa and purchased our goods and services there? Over a period of time, don't you think maybe Queen Creek might see the light? Nope, talk to Art, talk to Vicki.... they do not want to annex us...peiord. They have no desire or future inckling to annex us. So you really need to get that wish/hope out of your head. Taxing distrcist??? Why on earth would you be willing to have your taxes raised for let's say a fire distrcit only to maybe get better fire service out here when the rest falls to the county, when we all knwo they are not allowing the taxes we shell out to be put back into "our" community. That just makes sense.
When I moved to this area many years ago, I loved the quaint little town of Queen Creek. I always hoped we'd eventually be annexed by them and become a part of their heritage. I'm just tired of being treated as a second class citizen by them or being accused of having some incurable disease they don't want to come in contact with. Strange you say this when you just got done saying you would love to be annexed by them??? They love our money, but they are so afraid of our voting power. Maybe, just maybe, we too have similar visions but you can't stop growth forever and in the end, it is better to be a part of it rather than watch it pass you by. We are too big and too far away from either city to be a part of them. Has not a thing to do with our voting power.
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pcresident
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 08:12 pm |
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Chad Roche wrote:
The issue with incorporating our area is that we are not like the typical incorporation of a small town with 1500-2000 people, we're a massive city already and if we incorporate we are going from zero-sixty in a 2.4 seconds.....
I agree with everything else you said, except for this one- I think it needs to be more than 1500-2000 people, because that doesn't even encompass most housing developments in our area. STHs has 3200 homes, and I know my household # is 4 people, but even at the average for our area of 3.6 per household, just incorporating STHs brings ~11,520 people. I agree that we can't just incorporate 80,000 people, but a more realistic number, that would include areas for commercial would be about 25,000 people to start. I'm thinking CCR/Rancho Bella Vista area, so we can be sure to snap up the hospital straight away.
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History_101
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:41 pm |
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No one can move this area into incorporation by themselves. At this point in time since the area has grown to a size larger than many cities in Arizona, it will be quite the chore or undertaking.
In some prior posts, you gave some opinions regarding police and fire services and this is all well and good, but there are many other things to consider way before you start thinking about services.
First, who is going to fund this incorporation drive? Funding an incorporation drive is a formidable task. Donors and those organizing the drive are responsible for all costs incurred before incorporation, and these costs are not refunded after the city or town successfully incorporates. Be prepared to incur the following costs:
• Attorney-related costs
• Engineering-related costs, such as for drawing boundaries
• Fees to the county recorder's office for lists of registered voters
• Costs associated with obtaining budget estimates and other community assessments
• Costs associated with flyers and pamphlets publicizing incorporation
• Costs associated with dinners, coffees, and other informational public meetings
Incorporation drives are governed by Arizona’s political campaign contribution laws, which require that reports of all contributions and expenses be made available to the general public. Furthermore, personal and corporate contributions are restricted to a maximum of $300 per contributor.
Has anyone sat down and done a community assessment? Or are we just bloviating as you put it to incorporate? I've said many times it is easy to say "let's incorporate", but it is a much bigger task then just those two words. Before starting an incorporation effort, it is important that the unincorporated community conduct a thorough community assessment. While there is no legal requirement to conduct a community assessment, the decision whether to incorporate should be a well-informed one. The information accumulated during this step can later be used to justify support for or opposition to incorporation, and to inform voters. If the community does incorporate, then this information can be useful to the first town council. What to include in a community assessment:
• Analyze the reasons both for incorporating and for not incorporating.
• Analyze any past efforts to incorporate or change governmental forms and boundaries.
• Decide where the boundaries will fall.
• Analyze the community’s characteristics, strengths, weaknesses, and major issues.
• Analyze existing services and governing arrangements.
• Estimate potential revenues.
• Estimate potential expenditures, including what services the town wants to provide and how they will be provided.
• Analyze alternatives to incorporation: status quo, county formation, annexation, special districts, community councils, and colonies.
You talk about bringing builders on board and gaining their support. I'm not sure if you were here for the prior incorporation attempts, but the builders were strongly opposed to incorporation. They were sold a song and a dance when Maricopa City incorporated and they all got burned after incorporation. They were not ready to have that happen again.
Utility companies also have a vested interest in incorporation. Cities have a bad habit of placing additional taxes upon utilities. These fees must then come out of their bottom line or it is passed on to the residents. It isn't hard to figure who will be paying these extra fees. It surely isn't the utility company.
As many of you know, I oppose incorporation into a standalone city. No one has shown me how such an effort can be funded and I'm not talking about the incorporation drive. All one has to do is look at Mesa. Mesa is full of small retail outlets on every street you drive on plus they have very large malls that generates loads of sales tax revenue. If I remember correctly, not too long ago they were having budget problems. How can we expect to make it with the small amount of retail that currently exists within our community? I don't buy the adage, "If we build it they will come."
I fully support annexation. I say it is time we start a petition drive to be annexed into either Queen Creek or Florence. Our developments already have the utilities cities must provide their residents. Our roads are new and require little upkeep. And more importantly, they already have a government structure in place. One wouldn't be starting from scratch going this route. A much cheaper route for our residents.
You say Queen Creek and Florence doesn't want us? Queen Creek and Florence both love the money we spend in their towns. Our supposed 80,000 residents generates much needed sales tax revenue when we spend our hard earned money in either place. What if we just drove a little further, say Gilbert, Chandler or Mesa and purchased our goods and services there? Over a period of time, don't you think maybe Queen Creek might see the light?
When I moved to this area many years ago, I loved the quaint little town of Queen Creek. I always hoped we'd eventually be annexed by them and become a part of their heritage. I'm just tired of being treated as a second class citizen by them or being accused of having some incurable disease they don't want to come in contact with. They love our money, but they are so afraid of our voting power. Maybe, just maybe, we too have similar visions but you can't stop growth forever and in the end, it is better to be a part of it rather than watch it pass you by.
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 08:51 am |
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pipeman wrote: Chad Roche wrote: All,
I'm all for incorporation and even with all the questions out there (which need to be answered) we need to be cautious of WHO runs the effort. We need to make sure that the major developers in the area are involved but not TOO involved.
There are many things that we have to consider and I think this forum is a good start...we need to get the word out though because many people don't know that we have a name yet!
Here are my opinions on a few issues, at first we would be best to continue using Rural/Metro as we do now--Scottsdale did it for DECADES! We also don't need to rush into creating a police department and should use the Sheriff's department under contract until we can figure out how to fund the PD. If we do create a police department then we should follow Maricopa's model and only hire AZPOST certified transfers initially because that saves $$ on training.
The issue with incorporating our area is that we are not like the typical incorporation of a small town with 1500-2000 people, we're a massive city already and if we incorporate we are going from zero-sixty in a 2.4 seconds.....
Chad, I agree that it would be best to continue with Rual as Scottsdale and TOQC done for years. Agreed again, that we shoud contract with PCSO. And yes it is much cheaper to hire AZPOST officers, the police academy is costly and we certainly do not need that now.
Question, you said we need to incude developers, but not to much. What do you base this on? What do you see the developers doing for us?
Thanks
{sidenote: 2, I can't do it alone and I don't have all the ideas...I just like bloviating!!}
Pipe,
Developers are important to the growth of an urban area and should be involved in the planning and zoning of city/town spaces; they should be asked for their professional opinions because they know about (for lack of another word) developing and they know how to plan major projects. The more things the city can have done by private industry the less $$$$ they'll need. Developers also have some skin in the game and have an incentive to help market the city to major corporations or industries using their money not the city's.
THAT SAID, we need to have elected officials with backbone (I know, I know, this is pretty much an oxymoron these days!) who are willing to tell the developers when to chill and that we'll help them if they help us.
I know many disagree with me but this is how I feel!!
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pipeman
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 04:23 am |
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Chad Roche wrote: All,
I'm all for incorporation and even with all the questions out there (which need to be answered) we need to be cautious of WHO runs the effort. We need to make sure that the major developers in the area are involved but not TOO involved.
There are many things that we have to consider and I think this forum is a good start...we need to get the word out though because many people don't know that we have a name yet!
Here are my opinions on a few issues, at first we would be best to continue using Rural/Metro as we do now--Scottsdale did it for DECADES! We also don't need to rush into creating a police department and should use the Sheriff's department under contract until we can figure out how to fund the PD. If we do create a police department then we should follow Maricopa's model and only hire AZPOST certified transfers initially because that saves $$ on training.
The issue with incorporating our area is that we are not like the typical incorporation of a small town with 1500-2000 people, we're a massive city already and if we incorporate we are going from zero-sixty in a 2.4 seconds.....
Chad, I agree that it would be best to continue with Rual as Scottsdale and TOQC done for years. Agreed again, that we shoud contract with PCSO. And yes it is much cheaper to hire AZPOST officers, the police academy is costly and we certainly do not need that now.
Question, you said we need to incude developers, but not to much. What do you base this on? What do you see the developers doing for us?
Thanks
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2 cents
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 01:42 pm |
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| Chad, sounds as though you have the plan, run with it. Shoot, maybe you will be mayor.
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Chad Roche
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 06:20 am |
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All,
I'm all for incorporation and even with all the questions out there (which need to be answered) we need to be cautious of WHO runs the effort. We need to make sure that the major developers in the area are involved but not TOO involved.
There are many things that we have to consider and I think this forum is a good start...we need to get the word out though because many people don't know that we have a name yet!
Here are my opinions on a few issues, at first we would be best to continue using Rural/Metro as we do now--Scottsdale did it for DECADES! We also don't need to rush into creating a police department and should use the Sheriff's department under contract until we can figure out how to fund the PD. If we do create a police department then we should follow Maricopa's model and only hire AZPOST certified transfers initially because that saves $$ on training.
The issue with incorporating our area is that we are not like the typical incorporation of a small town with 1500-2000 people, we're a massive city already and if we incorporate we are going from zero-sixty in a 2.4 seconds.....
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PJ22
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Posted: Tue Jun 30th, 2009 06:46 am |
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| The name is San Tan Valley. I think the results are on GSTAC's website.
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morgan
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Posted: Tue Jun 30th, 2009 06:38 am |
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| I have been out of the loop. I heard about the vote for a name but never heard what the results are - please share.
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pipeman
Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 10:59 pm |
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ny, thanks for starting this thread. Hopefull we can have good discussions and share information, providind that knucklehead stay out of here.
There is some good information on the web from several areas that went through the process: Cordes Junction, Arizona City to name a few. I am sitting in Chicago airport waiting on my flight to Ft. Meyers, when I get to my hotel, I will pull my other laptop and see if I have any information on that one (I know I do at home) and I will post links.
As far as state shared revenue, a city receives a little over $300.00 per home. This is not hard to calculate (although it does go by last census) so wating until the 2010 census is complete and published might be a good idea. Look at Flagstaffs revenue we would receive more than that.
don't fool yourself, there are many people on here with good knowledge of the incorpration process, as many have been through this twice here some here were invloved the last 2 times, and other have been through it where they came from. History is one of the people with good knowledge about the process.
One thing that needs to happen is both sides (pros and cons) need to be able to discuss and share ideas while keeping an open mind. If this can't happen we will never get anywhere together as a community.
I would highly suggest that you call Supervisor Martyn and ask him the hard questions. I am positive that you will be happy with the answers. I surely was.
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History_101
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 07:46 pm |
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nybrian,
I suggest you start off by going to these two web sites and start reading. There you will find real pro's/con's and exactly what it takes to incorporate. A new city must have its own police force on July 1st following incorporation. Now that can be rent -a-cops from the County or your own force. No matter which you choose, this will become one of the largest costs to a new city. Least not forget about the insurance policy that must go along with such a thing. Cities are sued all the time. Oh, lawyer on staff is also a must. One might not even be enough with our size as it is. During the last two incorporation attempts, and they weren't pretty, if I remember correctly Hunt Highway will remain under the control of the County; however, the other roads will become the property of the city and must be maintained by the city. Now you either have your own folks to do it or you once again rent it from the County much like Queen Creek did for about 15 years. Yes, you will need a code enforcement department as the city will become responsible for issuing building permits and doing the follow-up inspections. So far you've only touched a small amount of what the new city will be responsible for. Look at it this way, you are duplicating everything the County does now for us only you become responsible for paying for it out of your budget. Speaking of budgets, you might want to go to the different cities web sites and start looking at what it costs them to run their cities. Casa Grande is a good one as they were at one time very close to our size. Also, you may want to go to the State's web site and find out just how much they pay per resident for HURF/LTAF and any other money that might be coming our way. A realistic budget must be presented to the residents for them to make a logical decision. If you don't have a realistic budget, you are buying a pig in the poke much like we were several years ago. Personally, I don't see how we can afford ourselves with what we will be taking in. Our sales tax revenue will be small because of the small number of retail outlets that we have and the County isn't going to give us that much money back out of our property taxes. Remember, the County has obligations too and once they divorce us, they could care less about us. We are on our own baby. Maybe someone has a money tree in their backyard or a printing press in there basement.
http://publicadmin.eller.arizona.edu/docs/pubs/Choices_for_Unincorporated_Comm_AZ_May2001.pdf
http://www.azleague.org/pdf/pub_municipal_incorp.pdf
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nybrian
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 06:25 pm |
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Hi,
I’ll be the first to say that I don’t know a whole lot about incorporation. From reading the posts on newsap I imagine most of us do not. So I decided to attempt to create a pro/con list.
Pros:
1. Eventually, our own police and fire service, paid through our local taxes.
2. Local control over our zoning and roads.
3. A library?
4. More of a sense of community?
5. Someone to answer to us---I can’t get a straight answer on whether Hunt Highway is ever going to get expanded, with local control I could go talk to the city manager or mayor.
Cons:
1. Higher taxes---no matter how you cut it, our taxes will go up a bit. Sales tax will increase, and if we can’t get more retail we will probably be looking at higher property tax.
2. 90% of ‘my city’ is already spoken for. I live on Hunt Highway, at the northern edge of the new city. Everything I see is already planned for---the homes, the retail, the offices. If one of the main reasons for creating a city is the ability to plan, well, that’s already done. So what will our city council do to determine how my community evolves?
I don’t knows:
1. Will we have a parks department? A big benefit of a city is parks, but we already have parks in all of our HOA’s. Do we want to acquire land and build parks like Queen Creek does?
2. City Code Enforcement---I read about the City of Maricopa and their code enforcement division being down to one employee. Do we even need this, because most of us in San Tan Valley live in HOA’s, where we already have rules?
3. Can we create a fire district to pay for a municipal fire service? How much cheaper would that be than Rural Metro?
4. As far as I have heard there are plans for a library in town---can we develop a ‘friends of the library’ program to push that along?
5. If we incorporate who assumes responsibility for Hunt Highway, the rest of Gantzel road, and the various roads that still need to be built? Who assumes responsibility for the bridge that is being built on Schnepf Road? Because 80,000 people probably means about 20,000 households, and 20,000 tax paying households paying for all of the road needs is a little scary.
6. This to me is perhaps the biggest ‘I don’t know’---Assuming I now pay 2,100 in total property tax---Pinal, school, CAC, etc. When we incorporate and add a property tax there will be a line item for ‘city tax’. Is the county of Pinal willing to tell us in advance whether, and by how much, they will reduce their tax to account for the fact that we will be assuming some of their responsibilities? I looked up a friend’s home on the Pinal website. He lives in the City of Maricopa, and he has a home my size, although nicer. It has a basement, so I don’t know how that affects taxes. I pay $2,100 in total taxes---he pays about $3,900. Out of that his city taxes are $1003 and his fire district taxes are $55. So is this what we are potentially looking at? Can someone give me a reason why the City of Maricopa has such high taxes?
Thank you for looking, and feel free to tell me what I may be missing or not understanding.
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