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Guy
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 01:07 am |
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Perhaps if we re-opened Ellis Island...
Required people to speak the native language...
Follow the laws for the path to become a citizen...
Nah...
Just pack them in a van and run the border. Let them stand on your street corner...
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bigwavedave
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 06:07 pm |
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TheBigShow wrote: CF, you took what I said out of context which is par for your course. I said that if God created Earth, he didn't create it with boundaries. Man did that. I didn't say there should be no geographical bounds but I believe that just because you have a line in the sand doesn't mean someone shouldn't cross it. I also don't believe people should just freely walk into the US at their leisure and break laws left and right. I said there needs to be a sensible immigration plan but we shouldn't base it solely on the fact that you choose to come here without the magic ticket. Your ancestors showed up on US soil uninvited. They had to register and assimilate. I propose the exact same thing. Under your crazy vision, 12 million people who live here now could never become citizens because oh my lord, they might VOTE! RUN!!!!! If you want to say they broke the law, fine. Write them a tresspasing ticket because that's the law they broke. Woopie doo.
As far as religion goes, you were the ones that told me that us athiests/agnostics need to recognize the Christians. Well I recognized you. So act like one. Christians are supposed be loving, accepting and forgiving. That sound like you?
BigShow, While you are correct about all our ancestors coming to the US without an invitation, the times have changed and the world has changed. Immigration is a very hot topic these days. Americans have lost jobs, crime by illegals is (was) rampant and just by the very fact they are here illegally is a crime. You call it a trespassing ticket offense, I call it a deport-able offense. The entire world has drawn their boundaries and if you want to go to those countries, you must abide by their laws and apply for immigration status. Because we have lax borders, doesn't mean we shouldn't have the right to limit the number of immigrants. I don't have a problem with any immigrant who has come here legally having the rights they are entitled to. I personally feel however, if you are not a US citizen, you should not be able to vote, own a firearm, collect unemployment, social security or medical care at no cost. We are not a charity (though we seem to have forgotten that). I have sympathy for the kids of illegals who live in fear of deportation for they will suffer for their parents mistakes. Sometimes these things don't seem to be fair, but I for one am tired of footing the bill for this. How much revenue do our school systems pay for bi-lingual education? Could this money not be spent better? My answer is yes, although when you put taxpayer money in the hands of a bureaucrat, who really knows how it will be spent? Perhaps I come across as harsh, however I offer no apology for my opinion. While we may disagree, that doesn't mean I will lose respect for your opinion. That is after all, what makes America great. Arguing about religion however is a lost cause. Whether you are Christian, atheist or agnostic, those discussions generally lower themselves to the lowest common denominator, and nobody wins because we all lose perspective during the "discussion".
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Guy
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 11:06 pm |
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Update...
25 "day laborers" counted at the Ocotillo/Ellsworth locations today at 10 am...
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 01:47 pm |
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TheBigShow wrote: CF, you took what I said out of context which is par for your course. I said that if God created Earth, he didn't create it with boundries. Man did that. I didn't say there should be no geographical bounds but I believe that just because you have a line in the sand doesn't mean someone shouldn't cross it. I also don't believe people should just freely walk into the US at their leisure and break laws left and right. I said there needs to be a sensible immigration plan but we shouldn't base it solely on the fact that you choose to come here without the magic ticket. Your ancestors showed up on US soil uninvited. They had to register and assimilate. I propose the exact same thing. Under your crazy vision, 12 million people who live here now could never become citizens because oh my lord, they might VOTE! RUN!!!!! If you want to say they broke the law, fine. Write them a tresspasing ticket because that's the law they broke. Woopie doo.
So we give them a trespassing ticket then allow them to elect whoever they want? That doesn't work for me. Their children will be citizens, but they never will. Those who go through the legal process to join our country will be welcomed as immigrants. Those who disregard our laws won't.
"As far as religion goes, you were the ones that told me that us atheists/agnostics need to recognize the Christians. Well I recognized you. So act like one. Christians are supposed be loving, accepting and forgiving. That sound like you?"
So Christians are supposed to be loving, accepting and forgiving, and atheists are supposed to be...what? Unfettered by religious concepts of behavior and therefore able to treat people however they want? Please, you constantly make the point that you are a good person without religion, so why do you try to play this religion card and tell people how to behave with religion? The open exchange of ideas that we promote on this forum doesn't mean I dislike you or anyone personally, it means that we are having a discussion, that's it. There also is absolutely no reason a religious person should support illegal immigration because of some emotional appeal to what Jesus taught. This is a maco policy that must be addressed by our country for security reasons.
Last edited on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 01:59 pm by CrimeFighter
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 02:05 am |
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CF, you took what I said out of context which is par for your course. I said that if God created Earth, he didn't create it with boundries. Man did that. I didn't say there should be no geographical bounds but I believe that just because you have a line in the sand doesn't mean someone shouldn't cross it. I also don't believe people should just freely walk into the US at their leisure and break laws left and right. I said there needs to be a sensible immigration plan but we shouldn't base it solely on the fact that you choose to come here without the magic ticket. Your ancestors showed up on US soil uninvited. They had to register and assimilate. I propose the exact same thing. Under your crazy vision, 12 million people who live here now could never become citizens because oh my lord, they might VOTE! RUN!!!!! If you want to say they broke the law, fine. Write them a tresspasing ticket because that's the law they broke. Woopie doo.
As far as religion goes, you were the ones that told me that us athiests/agnostics need to recognize the Christians. Well I recognized you. So act like one. Christians are supposed be loving, accepting and forgiving. That sound like you?
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anothertwocentsworth
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 01:40 am |
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They soon plan on frolicking naked across these man-made map-lines, becoming one with nature and man through interpretive dance. While you work on the moves that will unleash your peace and love frenzy, I'll vote on securing our borders to prevent terrorism and crime, and the implementation of policies that do not incentivize illegal behavior or compromise our national sovereignty.
OK, lets get one thing straight... I am not an atheist, quite the opposite
You protest too much CF, but will let you off the hook, after all, you don't need to prove anything to me...
You have again missed the point (again!) but that is OK, I still love you anyway..
peace out man, need to dance and itching to take off these clothes and birkenstocks 
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 01:28 am |
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anothertwocentsworth wrote: Nicely done BigShow. CF at this time chooses to disagree and I have read enough of his rantings to know that he does pick and choose. this is the problem, Christians like to pick and choose what they believe in from the Bible. I too see the problem in this and you make valid points and I agree with everyone.
2-cents,
"pick and choose" what? The gospel according to 2-cents and Bigshow? Since when did atheists become the experts on what people who believe in god should or shouldn't believe? This is nothing more than a weak attempt to change the topic at hand, which is, that illegal immigration really is (gasp) illegal. Turns out that around 80 percent of the electorate agrees with me and my ultraconservative view on this one. However, the super majority (consisting of 2-cent and Big Show) has determined that the United States of America no longer has geographic borders. They soon plan on frolicking naked across these man-made map-lines, becoming one with nature and man through interpretive dance. While you work on the moves that will unleash your peace and love frenzy, I'll vote on securing our borders to prevent terrorism and crime, and the implementation of policies that do not incentivize illegal behavior or compromise our national sovereignty.
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anothertwocentsworth
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 12:24 am |
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You claim to be such a god fearing Christian but your positions on just about everything don't seem to match the teachings of Jesus. I may be an agnostic but I seem to know a thing or two more about your lord and saviour than you do. Love thy neighbor, shelter the weak through the valley of darkness, love is patient and kind.
i point out the teachings of Jesus, the ultimate liberal, because guys like you like to quote the bible in some places and forget it for other things. Can't have it both ways man. I don't believe in God but you do, try following some of the teachings
Nicely done BigShow. CF at this time chooses to disagree and I have read enough of his rantings to know that he does pick and choose. this is the problem, Christians like to pick and choose what they believe in from the Bible. I too see the problem in this and you make valid points and I agree with everyone.
The difference is that CF is ultra conservative and instead of lending a hand, he would rather slap the hand and send you home (just saying what I see)
It would be easy to say all our problems are because of illegals and have been elected to be our scapgoats for all things gone bad. I guess then we could blame the illegals for our traffic woes in QC...
Open you heart and mind CF and stop acting so scared. No one is going to take away any of your toys.
Thank you Big Show for taking this stand and pointing out His truth.
no smiling faces this time CF
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 11:28 pm |
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Yeah, I'm not sure how exactly you deciphered my personal beliefs relating to creationism or the bible, as I have never quoted the bible or discussed these things here. But then, all people with conservative views must be evangelical, right? I'm just glad that BigShow has finally made it clear that he wants no countries. Not sure I would want to work with a guy who didn't believe in the company we worked for and was protecting the interests of other companies with the same energy as his employers company. It's no different with countries. I personally am not interested in being part of a country-free world, as that social experiment will end in disaster.
Reagan clearly screwed up by signing the previous amnesty legislation, so let's not make the same mistake twice. This does not diminish his body of work, which was overwhelmingly positive for our country (but not for the soviets, so I can understand now why you wouldn't like him). All that legalizing illegals did is signal to future hordes that, once you skirt border patrol and make it far enough inland, the BigShows of the country will line up to make you a citizen, and provide you with a damp towelette, welfare benefits, and a cup of coffee.
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 11:09 pm |
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Do you honestly believe that if God created Earth, he created borders too? I point out the teachings of Jesus, the ultimate liberal, because guys like you like to quote the bible in some places and forget it for other things. Can't have it both ways man. I don't believe in God but you do, try following some of the teachings of his kid. I know you want to have this double standard but it doesn't work like that. And yes, the people who build the homes, pick the crops, work the minimum wage jobs and get exploited by American busineses are the backbone of America. Regardless of how they got here, they make many of the menial things we rely on happen. And btw, you didn't answer the question about who signed that amnesty bill you don't like...
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 11:02 pm |
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Now Big Show has apparently run out of legitimate arguments, so he is playing the religion card. Why should any of that matter if there isn't a God? That's right, it's simply a way to try to guilt-trip people into falling in line with a liberal theology. There is nothing in my belief system that allows for lawbreaking, which is what illegal immigration is. Lawbreakers are the backbone of America? I think you're thinking of Australia, which was settled by criminals, not America.
If we as a country have lost our resolve to enforce a border, why not just merge with Canada and Mexico and give them all the right to elect our president as well? How about Russia, or Iraq? Those people all have families to support and need work, why can't they be part of our democracy? The citizens of this country have a right for self determination, and that doesn't include allowing citizens of other countries to vote for our leaders.
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 10:54 pm |
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Since you brought up McCain, take a guess as to which president signed the 1986 Amnesty Bill that you seem to be so against...
If the choice between staying in a country where you remain poor or trying to make it elsewhere by uprooting from your family and taking a hard labor job, the decision would be very easy to make. Those people are here because they want the same thing you want. They aren't lawbreakers, they're the backbone of America. Give them a trespasing ticket and move on with your life.
You claim to be such a god fearing Christian but your positions on just about everything don't seem to match the teachings of Jesus. I may be an agnostic but I seem to know a thing or two more about your lord and saviour than you do. Love thy neighbor, shelter the weak through the valley of darkness, love is patient and kind. Does any of that mean anything to you? Perhaps you need a heart to heart with your minister and see what Jesus would say about these people you seem to rail against.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 10:26 pm |
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Big Show,
Whoever said they were going to go leave? 12 million are here, but I am 100% opposed to giving illegals the same voting rights that legal citizens have. All that accomplishes is it creates an illegal immigrant magnet for the next 12 million, or 100 million who decide to jump the border. It also gives lawbreakers the right to vote for more relaxed immigration laws (i.e. electing people like John McAmnesty). Our ancestors came to America legally, and there is a BIG difference between legal and illegal immigration.
I know people personally who are on the list to become legal citizens, and guess what, they are still in their home country until they are given the legal right to come. They have had opportunities to come illegally, but they have ethical boundaries, unlike the millions already here who don't. These are the kind of people that America needs, not people without ethical boundaries. Those people are already here, but by giving them amnesty you exacerbate the problem before the border has been secured, and you create a huge voting block of criminals!
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 08:29 pm |
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CF, looking for work isn't a crime. Most of the people that come here are doing so because the jobs our companies offer there pay them far less than they can make here. You have this grand vision that 12 million people are just going to pick up and leave and that isn't going happen. I don't care if you read The Secret 20 times and wish for them to go away, it's not going to happen. So you have to use common sense, if you don't give them a channel to become legal citizens, the problems will just continue. Give it time and those that don't try to become legal citizens, then you crack down. Work permits do nothing. They just keep the problems you are complaining about. There are a lot of people who overstay their visas so you won't eliminate the problem. As Bill constantly reminds me, be reasonable.
My ancestors came to the US on the Mayflower and trust me, no one would call them illegal aliens. Instead, we have scholarships set up for these people who came to America without being invited. I'm sure your ancestors came to America without receiving an invitation as well. This country was founded on the principle that we welcome to outcasts. We welcome people who want to live the American Dream. Unless you're willing to pay for the crime your ancestors committed by coming here uninvited, I suggest you ought to chill out and find a solution that actually works.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 08:03 pm |
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TheBigShow wrote: Setting up a legalization program that actually works is a better solution. Give people the chance to be a US citizen without penalizing them. Enforce that to become a citizen, they must learn English and have a system in place that moves faster than what we have now. No need to be biggots about it, let's just find a solution and do it.
Absolutely no citizenship for people who won't even follow the basic laws required to enter this country. Why should we give voting power to people with this kind of disregard for our laws? Give them work permits so you know who they are and can track them, but if they ever want to be citizens they can go back to their countries and get in the back of the line for citizenship; the people who are doing it legally should become citizens, not the criminals.
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 07:51 pm |
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I hired a robot to vaccum my floors and hired myself to spray for weeds. If you use the right stuff, you won't have to be back out there for months. The state's response to this federal problem is admirable one but the question does have to be asked, who will work those jobs? Prison labor?
Setting up a legalization program that actually works is a better solution. Give people the chance to be a US citizen without penalizing them. Enforce that to become a citizen, they must learn English and have a system in place that moves faster than what we have now. No need to be biggots about it, let's just find a solution and do it.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 03:35 pm |
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All I know is that I have been down there to hire a couple after I get out of bed (after 10:00 a.m.) and they are all gone. All I want is to get my yard looking like white trash doesn't live here any more.
BS - now you are just messing with me. i get up at the butt crack of dawn... buying into the whole "early to bed, early to rise" proverb and you come at me with a liesurely 10 am wake up, after which you roll out to get your day laborer to pick up what sounds like a pretty unkempt yard. you got me ! LOL
i hope you are checking legal status of your day laborers since i think today is the first day of the employer sanctions enforcement.
can't blame you for not wanting to take care of the yard though... i personally have a service that comes by weekly for that chore and my yard looks good always and i can focus on more fun activities.
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BruceSmart
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 03:05 pm |
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QCVillager wrote: hold the phone ! what on earth are you talking about BS ? Firstly, 150 is a huge exaggeration (by at least 3 fold). i was just out checking my campaign signs and can assure you the day laborers are out in full force.
8:19am saturday morning
12 at corner by Norton's
4 at Circle K (n/e corner Ocotillo/Ellsworth)
4 at Beverage Mart (s/e corner Ocotillo/Ellsworth)
3 at vacant lot (n/w corner Ocotillo/Ellsworth
that makes 23 not counting guys that were already picked up earlier... after 8 a lot of guys have already been picked up for work.
I stand corrected: All I know is that I have been down there to hire a couple after I get out of bed (after 10:00 a.m.) and they are all gone. All I want is to get my yard looking like white trash doesn't live here any more.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 02:53 pm |
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by the way - sometimes the cart comes before the horse and sometimes the horse before the cart.
anyone stop to think that a big reason for some of the day laborers are no longer around is because there is a lesser need for framers and drywallers and other such labor due to the depressed home building market ?
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QCVillager
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 02:29 pm |
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hold the phone ! what on earth are you talking about BS ? Firstly, 150 is a huge exaggeration (by at least 3 fold). i was just out checking my campaign signs and can assure you the day laborers are out in full force.
8:19am saturday morning
12 at corner by Norton's
4 at Circle K (n/e corner Ocotillo/Ellsworth)
4 at Beverage Mart (s/e corner Ocotillo/Ellsworth)
3 at vacant lot (n/w corner Ocotillo/Ellsworth
that makes 23 not counting guys that were already picked up earlier... after 8 a lot of guys have already been picked up for work.
Last edited on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 02:46 pm by QCVillager
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Bambi
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 01:48 pm |
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You want to know where all the Hispanic labor's have gone? Utah, Nevada, Calif. and Texas and finally back to their homes in Mexico. And it is having a severe whiplash effect on the economy our here. Many of these fine people can't be replaced, so business are closing down. Eloy is having a major problem recruiting people to replace them, as are other places. Farmers can't hire them. And many business's did benefit from those guys buying goods from them, but they too are now closing their doors.
So, having said that, we went to alot of trouble to get rid of these guys, and now where are those labors that have been complaining about these guys taking their jobs? Probably still behind the game machine, living off of unemployment.
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BruceSmart
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 07:24 am |
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| Sanders mentioned that he has been working with the MCSO with the extra gatherings at Ellsworth and Ocotillo. He didn't say exactly what they are doing but is seems to be working. It sure is nice to be able to drive down town and not see 150 guys looking for work.
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