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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 05:48 pm |
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QCVillager wrote:
that is quite the generalization there CF. is your narrow brush out for cleaning today ?
i can assure you that i won't "simply be seeking to increase gov't". as to bringing Council's "objectives in line with the needs of the residents"... well, i AM a resident. if the Town prospers, i too personally prosper. if i can help to create the Town that our resident's children will want to inherit... then too, MY OWN children will want to do likewise and that benefits me greatly (indeed, on the most personal of levels). talk about motivation !
I am speaking in generalizations, but this isn't as simply as you describe above. I don't doubt that you are motivated to make the town a better place to live for your children. As am I. Does this mean both of us have the same concept of what it means for the town to "prosper"? Probably not.
In business we all understand what it means for our companies to prosper: profits. In a town, what does it mean to prosper? A basic level of service must be provided (roads, parks, etc). Beyond that, how would you define success for the town? It's not increased town profits if those profits are being extracted from residents, because that hurts them. Perhaps success for the town is to find a way to extract profits from people from outside of our town to benefit residents (like is happening now at Target with sales taxes flowing in from Pinal residents). Still, I would be more comfortable if you as a town council member stood to earn a $500k bonus for reaching our town profit goals (not from taxing residents). Let's do that. Then I know where your bread is buttered.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 03:23 pm |
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CrimeFighter wrote: This discussion about compensation really goes to a more fundamental discussion about human nature. Human behavior is predictable in that it is self motivated, and individuals constantly seek to better their own conditions. This is a good thing, because it's what makes us all get up in the morning and spend the day working hard. Companies are a natural extension of groups of people seeking their own interests, namely: money. Markets work efficiently in this "invisible hand" concept.
How does this fundamental understanding of human nature translate to the town? Just fine when it comes to town employees: they are paid for the work they perform, if they work hard they may get a raise or have better job security. Yet for some reason we believe that the human nature of town management is different? Some economists have created models showing that bureaucrats seek to maximize their influence (the size of their departments, their budget, their political clout) rather than their personal net worth (because the are stuck in an organization that can't or won't provide large financial incentives). So instead of finding ways to prosper the profits of the town, our management will simply be seeking to increase government. Is this a good thing for the residents? Isn't their a better way to incentivize town council to bring their objectives in line with the needs of the residents?
that is quite the generalization there CF. is your narrow brush out for cleaning today ?
i can assure you that i won't "simply be seeking to increase gov't". as to bringing Council's "objectives in line with the needs of the residents"... well, i AM a resident. if the Town prospers, i too personally prosper. if i can help to create the Town that our resident's children will want to inherit... then too, MY OWN children will want to do likewise and that benefits me greatly (indeed, on the most personal of levels). talk about motivation !
you picked up on only one aspect of human nature, but i think it is far more complex than you let on this morning. there are many many ways we are motivated... not just the two you mentioned (Money - Influence).
i realize you weren't writing specifically about one Council person... but as i have worked with this Council and previous Councils, i have gotten to figure out why they are there. i have gotten to figure out why they ran, and why they re-run and can assure you that i have found Money or Influence to be the main motivation/incentive in a small minority of instances.
Hey Gang - Bed Bath & Beyond and Bevmo are OPEN today ! if you need something, get on over there. you will be helping the Town when you keep your tax dollars local. (there is a $10 off coupon for Bevmo in the EV Trib this morning)
Last edited on Sat Apr 26th, 2008 03:32 pm by QCVillager
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 01:54 pm |
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This discussion about compensation really goes to a more fundamental discussion about human nature. Human behavior is predictable in that it is self motivated, and individuals constantly seek to better their own conditions. This is a good thing, because it's what makes us all get up in the morning and spend the day working hard. Companies are a natural extension of groups of people seeking their own interests, namely: money. Markets work efficiently in this "invisible hand" concept.
How does this fundamental understanding of human nature translate to the town? Just fine when it comes to town employees: they are paid for the work they perform, if they work hard they may get a raise or have better job security. Yet for some reason we believe that the human nature of town management is different? Some economists have created models showing that bureaucrats seek to maximize their influence (the size of their departments, their budget, their political clout) rather than their personal net worth (because the are stuck in an organization that can't or won't provide large financial incentives). So instead of finding ways to prosper the profits of the town, our management will simply be seeking to increase government. Is this a good thing for the residents? Isn't their a better way to incentivize town council to bring their objectives in line with the needs of the residents?
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QCVillager
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 01:42 am |
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I'm sure Jeff, Lisa and all the others are grateful for a SMALL stipend to cover some mileage and misc expenses, but I'm sure if there was NO COMPENSATION, they would still be willing to serve the town.
the truth of the matter for me is that i didn't even know what the stipend was prior to pulling my nomination petition packet. i only found out when people started asking me if the Council position was a paid one or volunteer... i knew there was a stipend but just didn't know exactly what it was. upon asking, i was told it was $300, but that it was increasing thrice over upon swearing in of new Council.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 11:07 pm |
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I fully recognize that money alone probably isn't the primary motivating factor behind most public servants. It must be for for philanthropic reasons or, occasionally, for power hunger. However, by paying practically nothing, we severely reduce the number of people who are willing to serve. Proper financial incentives are crucial to performance at all of our workplaces, so why is a town different?
As for the downturn, I know for a fact that even in the midst of layoffs, top performing employees are given raises at most companies. We should be willing to pay for talent, because talent yields results in excess of it's cost. Towns are different I concede, I just think that some compensation makes some of these positions palatable to many of our town residents who are talented decision-makers, yet highly value their own time.
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qclars
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 08:43 pm |
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CrimeFighter wrote: I happen to think that Council is horribly underpaid as it is, so I don't think they should have further reductions.
We should think this through. If we as a town want the best and the brightest running our town, shouldn't we compensate accordingly? Many competent people aren't willing to give their time and energies away for free, because private industry rewards these skills too handsomely. I don't think we should reduce Council pay, we should probably increase it.
Anyone who goes into "public service" for the compensation is sadly uninformed. I'm sure Jeff, Lisa and all the others are grateful for a SMALL stipend to cover some mileage and misc expenses, but I'm sure if there was NO COMPENSATION, they would still be willing to serve the town. There probably isn't enough money in the town budget to get you (or me) to be willing to serve.
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Lisa.Coletto.Cohen
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 03:33 pm |
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My term almost being up puts me in an ideal position to bring this up from a political perspective. I did not support this idea of these increases and benefits in the first place during the initial meetings with staff. Knowing my vacation schedule a year in advance, this was unfortunately scheduled while I was gone. Hmmm, what was the rush, this wouldn't take effect for almost a year later?
You can't tell the residents that they need a property tax, we need to increase sales tax again and again because the Town needs money and turn around and increase Council pay, especially in a downturn where you are laying off people and cutting pay for your staff. It doesn't pass the sniff test.
Beyond that, do you think that most of the individuals on Council are really are doing this for the money? Do you think a 6.25% pay cut will really impact them? Did the increase result in a big field of people running during the last election? ( BTW, I do agree with you on finding ways to attract quality candidates, I just think that salaries would have to be significantly higher to have that happen. )
CF, don't be to sure that this wouldn't affect me in the future. I may decide to come back at some point. I have not closed the door on that. Sorry if I am disappointing you. And, being up there, I would have no problem with what I am asking if it were to directly affect me.
This is about doing the right thing. It is about demonstrating leadership and actually walking the walk we are asking others on our staff to do. It's about telling the staff, we will share in their hard times with them. You don't talk about hard times and lay off people's friends, people who were doing a good job and then increase your pay substantially. Ask what the benefits are and how much they are worth. You might be in for a little shock.
As the Chair of the Budget committee and a seated and elected Council Member, it is my job to scrutinize these issues. Council votes on these issues that take effect next term, as a result, my Council votes on issues relating to the next Councils salaries and benefits. Those are the rules. This is completely within my purview to comment on. My term is up in June, I am sorry if I am actually continuing to do my job. Maybe some others in a leadership position should step up! Good Leadership should start at the top and should be by example.
Last edited on Sat Apr 26th, 2008 12:56 am by Lisa.Coletto.Cohen
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 11:57 am |
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This is a commendable move by Jeff to support cutting his own wages. It's a little strange for Lisa to be the one calling for this move, given that she won't be affected by it since her term is almost up. I happen to think that Council is horribly underpaid as it is, so I don't think they should have further reductions.
We should think this through. If we as a town want the best and the brightest running our town, shouldn't we compensate accordingly? Many competent people aren't willing to give their time and energies away for free, because private industry rewards these skills too handsomely. I don't think we should reduce Council pay, we should probably increase it.
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 04:34 pm |
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Is this a common practice to provide Health care benefits to council members in other citys? What other perks are provided I wonder? I thought only employees would qualify for that. I thought most council members have other jobs that provide them with benefits already.
Good job their Lisa, looking out for the people. I would venture to say, that many of your residents don't even have health care/insurance as it is becoming cost prohibitive to have such a "luxury".
Good point there Jeff about the position being a volunteer position. It is also a sacrifice, and you and the rest are making that sacrifice in more than one way. You are all to be admired and congradulated for your sacrifices.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 03:29 pm |
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I am in absolute agreement with current council persons Lisa Coletto-Cohen and Gordon Mortensen that the cuts really should impact the elected body to the same extent as it impacts town staff.
The 6.25% pay cut for Town Council and Mayor won't really result in a huge savings or impact the bottom line significantly since the pay for those positions is only $900 and $1500 respectively... but it is a showing instead of solidarity with the talented and professional staff we have.
We can save a bunch of money though by getting rid of health insurance for Town Council. In the article below it was reported that this would save $37,000. This is because the amount was only budgeted for two council persons and family members. The reality is that the health insurance benefit for Town Council and Mayor could cost as much as $91,000 annually.
The Town Council is basically a volunteer position (monthly stipend basically offsets some clothing, fuel, and a few bucks to compensate for time away from family) and I guess it just surprises me that we would saddle Town residents with potentially $91,000 worth of health care benefit.
At the same time, I am very much hoping to be able to retain as much ability as possible for the "professional development" budget. This is the budget that allows for trainings pertinant to Town issues and business. As an incoming council person, I have already identified a number of trainings available that would be invaluable to a rookie/freshman.
Last edited on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 03:32 pm by QCVillager
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 03:08 pm |
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Q.C. councilwoman backs pay reductions
Coletto-Cohen says members should share in tough times
By SARAH J. BOGGAN TRIBUNE CONTACT WRITER: (480) 898-6574 or sboggan@evtrib.com
Queen Creek Town Councilwoman Lisa Coletto-Cohen is calling for the council to tighten its collective belt as the town slashes its budget.
Last week, Town Manager John Kross recommended laying off 14 employees, eliminating 23 vacant positions, reducing part-time positions, modifying the workweek to 37.5 hours for full-time staff, and cutting salaried staff pay by 6.25 percent.
During a budget committee meeting Wednesday, Coletto-Cohen asked that the council’s soon-to-be increased salaries be subject to a 6.25 percent cut that salaried staff will receive.
The council last year approved council salaries increasing from $300 to $900 a month and the mayor’s salary to increase from $500 to $1,500 a month.
The council’s pay increase is to become effective with the seating of the new council on June 4.
Coletto-Cohen, along with Councilman-elect Jeff Brown, also asked that health insurance benefits, a cost of about $37,000, be cut for the council.
“Leadership starts at the top — we need to be doing things we’re asking others to take on,” Coletto-Cohen said.
Last year, the council voted to make health insurance available to council members at taxpayers’ cost.
“I’d like to see insurance go away entirely (for the council),” Brown said.
Assistant Town Manager Patrick Flynn said the temporary pay cut could be instituted as it will be for town staff — until the local economy improves.
Councilman Gordon Mortensen said he wants to see the recommended cuts brought before the entire council for consideration.
Mortensen and Coletto-Cohen also recommended the council’s continuing education budget be cut from $3,500 to $2,000 per member.
The town’s recommended budget cuts, outside of the layoffs that were instituted this week, will be presented to the council on May 21.
Lisa Coletto-Cohen
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