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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 07:18 pm |
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Maybe this will help you.
As I have said repeatedly, YOU are the one who put your name on this posting it here relentlessly. YOU are the one presenting these arguments in support of this colossol waste. YOU are the voice of those 'dozens of people' as it relates to this forum and when presented with evidence that doesn't support your position you throw your hands in the air, and tell us all to trust you and your group.
Whether you lead them or not is irrelevant. YOU are their voice here and you did so by your own choosing. Other than a non-QC resident chiming in, nobody has responded in defense of this other than you. That, sir, does not make me a liar. It makes it fact.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 06:59 pm |
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gsbill wrote: The is useless.
Absolutely. You didn't address a single one of the issues I posted here other than to say "we already went through this". Well, I don't trust your judgment so I would prefer to make up my own mind if it's OK with you. One thing is sure, you are wasting your time here trying to sell me on this deal.
So if the Town Plan published on their web site doesn't define what happens in the dead center of town, which 10 year old document should I be looking at? This is laugable.
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clu
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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gsbill wrote: Where is the outrage over the mistakes made that got us the medians in the first place?
Yes, we are outraged that the council was too incompetent to know what the heck they were voting on.
What you should be alarmed about is how staff pushed this median issue and rushed votes.
What kind of council member would vote on something they don't know they are voting on?
So the bottom line is we are blaming this on the incompetence of a previous administration ... Wendy's administration?
I still don't see what is wrong with medians on the road.
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gsbill
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 06:17 pm |
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DavidB wrote:
gsbill wrote: Do you really think you just discovered some lost information? All of this was gone over in great detail for 2.5 months by dozens of people.
You asked me to read the Town Plan. I did, and this is what I found. So what you are saying is since you and your 'dozens of people' who have a special interetest in changing the plan 'went over' it, we should just abandon what is clearly defind and even drawn in the plan? Nice try at glossing these facts over. Yes, busted.
If Ellsworth is going to be a 6 lane road, it too should have medians.
The is useless. Town staff and elected officials went over all of this with us. I am done with this. Have a good time with your endeavor. It took us over 50 hours to research to just prepare for our presentation to town and 2.5 months to get thru it. WE had to request 1,000's of pages of info and read thru 10 years worth of documents.
I was willing to share that all with you..but ya know what...Go get it for yourself.
Ellsworth is not going to be 6 lanes in Town Center.
So your claim is I fooled town managers, engineers, planners and all of our elected offcials based on the fact YOU found one drawing in the Town Center Plan!
Have fun as this is the last time I will reply to this. Have a great day!
So what you are saying is since you and your 'dozens of people' who have a special interetest in changing the plan
There is no special interests..you are wrong..And I dont have dozens of people..I told you that numerous times..You are lying again.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 06:15 pm |
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gsbill wrote: Why didnt any of you get informed about this as it progressed? The chances to do so were many. You all did nothing, refused to look at information, for the most part didnt email the town(I have most of the email's sent in regarding medians since July).
I think most of us expected our elected officials to deal with this kind of foolishness as a function of performing their duties. I, for one, never thought in a million years they would cave to you guys.
As others have said, this will be fresh in my mind come election time. It is also a wake up call to all of us that we need to pay attention to what is being put before our council. It seems just about anything can happen regardless of how rediculous it may seem.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 06:12 pm |
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gsbill wrote: Oh and by the way those are drive over brick 2 way left turn lanes on Ellsworth..Post up the cross section of Ellsworth there David. The idea was to continue with raised medians up and down Ellsworth too.
You're not proposing to waste $250K of our tax money for Ellsworth. This is about Ocotillo and the waste that is about to happen, remember? If the plan gets revised for Ellsworth, then so be it. At least we're not paying for it twice. You claim that nobody knew about this because it was so tiny you couldn't see it. Can you see it now?
I would love to see a pin map showing where the 'dozens' of people live and/or own businesses. I would be willing to bet the vast majority, if not all, have vested interests along Ocotillo road.
I do care about my neighbors and their businesses. I too am a small business owner and the last thing I would want to do is to make another business owner struggle. The bottom line to me is that customers can still reach these businesses. One of the studies I posted included a poll. The results of that poll were that 82% of people surveyed said they would still patronize a business even if a median were installed.
This is about what it will cost taxpayers. I, like most, am not pleased seeing my property taxes double. I can live with it, but cannot live with those dollars being squandered over special interests like this.
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gsbill
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 06:08 pm |
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orchardranchres wrote:
DavidB wrote: orchardranchres wrote: I knew it, just figured! They werent happy just spending $115k, so they had to go for another $135k right away!
In fairness, I believe this is being considered to reduce the overall cost of this deconstruction project. If the quantity is greater, the unit cost is lower.
I looked at video again since it is making me so mad. You are right. It should be $200k to deconstruct the other part with the first part. $200k is still almost 10 times more than $21k. 10 times more expensive than it has to be and the millions in lawsuits. What a bargain!
The final cost is not established yet. I think I said that many times already. There are ideas in play to reduce costs and there are ideas in the works to bring money into the Town Center to offset the cost of removing the medians.
Where is the outrage over the mistakes made that got us the medians in the first place?
Why didnt any of you get informed about this as it progressed? The chances to do so were many. You all did nothing, refused to look at information, for the most part didnt email the town(I have most of the email's sent in regarding medians since July).
Be angry with yourself for not doing a darn thing or even trying to get informed about what was going on.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 05:59 pm |
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gsbill wrote: Do you really think you just discovered some lost information? All of this was gone over in great detail for 2.5 months by dozens of people.
You asked me to read the Town Plan. I did, and this is what I found. So what you are saying is since you and your 'dozens of people' who have a special interetest in changing the plan 'went over' it, we should just abandon what is clearly defind and even drawn in the plan? Nice try at glossing these facts over. Yes, busted.
If Ellsworth is going to be a 6 lane road, it too should have medians.
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gsbill
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 05:53 pm |
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CrimeFighter wrote:
DavidB wrote: From page 26 of the Town Center General Plan:
Hey, is that a median on Ocotillo? Is that date really December, 2004?
Busted! So much for that "I only learned about this in July 2008" theory. Nice work David.
Nobody is busted. Did you read the parts about one lane in each direction with a 2 way left turn lane? Did you read what Dick Schaner stated in 1999 about 2 way left turn lanes needed in front of the Victoria project.
Do you really think you just discovered some lost information? All of this was gone over in great detail for 2.5 months by dozens of people.
Oh and by the way those are drive over brick 2 way left turn lanes on Ellsworth..Post up the cross section of Ellsworth there David. The idea was to continue with raised medians up and down Ellsworth too.Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 05:55 pm by gsbill
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 05:16 pm |
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DavidB wrote: orchardranchres wrote: I knew it, just figured! They werent happy just spending $115k, so they had to go for another $135k right away!
In fairness, I believe this is being considered to reduce the overall cost of this deconstruction project. If the quantity is greater, the unit cost is lower.
I looked at video again since it is making me so mad. You are right. It should be $200k to deconstruct the other part with the first part. $200k is still almost 10 times more than $21k. 10 times more expensive than it has to be and the millions in lawsuits. What a bargain!
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 05:11 pm |
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Some more interesting items from the Town Center Plan on page 27:
In part B of Section 3 it states the #1 goal to be:
Goal 1 Ensure that the Town Center provides maximum return on both public and private sector investment.
Can somebody please show me the ROI for ripping out medians we just installed?
Look at the #1 goal outlined in this plan with regard to roads:
In part E of Section V - Circulation Goals and Policies we find:
Goal 1 Develop a comprehensive, safe, and convenient multimodal transportation and circulation system in the Town Center to support business and social activities and minimize impacts on residential areas.
Sorry, Bill. Safety IS an issue. At least to most of us.
Policy 1g Continue to observe Ellsworth and Ocotillo Roads as the major crossroads of the Queen Creek Town Center.
If a median doesn't belong here, where does it belong?
Policy 1i Design and implement the roadway system in the Town Center to discourage cut-through and commercially generated traffic through neighborhoods.
Medians provide this discouragement unless you have a lifted 4WD.
In part of D of section IV the #1 Goal is to make the town center attractive:
Goal 1 Design and maintain a unique and attractive Town Center for Queen Creek residents and visitors to enjoy.
I think we can all agree that huge spans of asphalt are far from attractive.
In summary, after reading through this plan, I find absolutley nothing to support the removal of medians, and everything to support their retention. From an aesthetic, safety, consistency, and budgetary perspective the answer is obvious to most.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:43 pm |
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orchardranchres wrote: I knew it, just figured! They werent happy just spending $115k, so they had to go for another $135k right away!
In fairness, I believe this is being considered to reduce the overall cost of this deconstruction project. If the quantity is greater, the unit cost is lower.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:28 pm |
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DavidB wrote: From page 26 of the Town Center General Plan:
Hey, is that a median on Ocotillo? Is that date really December, 2004?
Busted! So much for that "I only learned about this in July 2008" theory. Nice work David.
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:27 pm |
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CrimeFighter wrote: Regardless of whether this historical screwup can be changed at this point, it should now be apparent to all of the reasonable people reading about this issue that we need to change some of the people on council. There is no way to defend this. Either they were incompetent by not understanding what they originally voted to approve, or they simply don't have the backbone to stand for their vote when some opposition arises.
Those of us footing the bill will remember this come election time.
I know I will too. It cant come soon enough for me though. I am worried how we will even make it to the next election with this councils poor judgement. We may be bankrupt before we can get these dunces out. I cant wait to see how much the garbage and recycling is going to cost us.
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:22 pm |
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| Mortensen. Are you sure since he voted against this? What is he thinking now?
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QCVillager
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:16 pm |
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orchardranchres wrote: QCVillager wrote: orchardranchres wrote: What about the other median? Will Barnes just do this on his own? Can he? Jeff?
the second area of median from 203rd to the East is already going to be an agenda item for the next Council meeting on the 15th.
no, one council member typically cannot get something agendized by themselves. the way we have it set up, it takes two council members.
Who put this on the next meeting?
Barnes / Mortensen
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:15 pm |
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From page 26 of the Town Center General Plan:
Hey, is that a median on Ocotillo? Is that date really December, 2004?Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:15 pm by DavidB
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:13 pm |
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Regardless of whether this historical screwup can be changed at this point, it should now be apparent to all of the reasonable people reading about this issue that we need to change some of the people on council. There is no way to defend this. Either they were incompetent by not understanding what they originally voted to approve, or they simply don't have the backbone to stand for their vote when some opposition arises.
Those of us footing the bill will remember this come election time.
Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:14 pm by CrimeFighter
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:05 pm |
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QCVillager wrote: orchardranchres wrote: What about the other median? Will Barnes just do this on his own? Can he? Jeff?
the second area of median from 203rd to the East is already going to be an agenda item for the next Council meeting on the 15th.
no, one council member typically cannot get something agendized by themselves. the way we have it set up, it takes two council members.
I knew it, just figured! They werent happy just spending $115k, so they had to go for another $135k right away! Do these dunces have any idea how much this will really cost? Will these dunces be paying the bill when we get sued for millions in the head-on crash? Who put this on the next meeting?
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QCVillager
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 03:55 pm |
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orchardranchres wrote: What about the other median? Will Barnes just do this on his own? Can he? Jeff?
the second area of median from 203rd to the East is already going to be an agenda item for the next Council meeting on the 15th.
no, one council member typically cannot get something agendized by themselves. the way we have it set up, it takes two council members.
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gsbill
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 03:50 pm |
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As I have said before there is to much information. I have posted clear and concise info. One must sit done and read over stuff. The final costs are not in and again as I have stated we are tossing around a few ideas to save money and one to re coup money. Pleas read David and have some recall.
This is not a safety issue Its not about safety David. Its about a broken process and the abandonment of our approved plans. Please read the Town Center Plan. A fight to keep medians would be calling for our approved plan to be abandoned for a 2nd time. Come to the TAC meetings. Thats where access management policy will be crafted. Put in a letter of interest to be on that committee.
What you should be alarmed about is how staff pushed this median issue and rushed votes. Reality is the first time council specifically voted in favor of raised medians was on July 21st 2008 after construction began.
You take issue with all I post to support and prove what I state and refuse to sit down and go over it all. What would you do If you were me? Then you go on to bash me and all who worked on this including town staff and our elected officials.
You pick..You want the facts or not?
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 03:43 pm |
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| What about the other median? Watching the council meeting I get a feeling that Barnes wants to spend $135 thousand on taking that median out too. Will Barnes just do this on his own? Can he? I voted for him and now wish I didnt. He has the worst judgement of all of them and cant make up his mind. Jeff?
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 03:40 pm |
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gsbill wrote: clu wrote:
One nice thing about medians is you can plant nice trees and bushes in the median. This enhances the aesthetics. This is in alignment with QC's beautification plan. And makes driving on the street much more pleasant.
However, now we'll just see a large black, hot street that's pretty darn ugly. Thanks, thanks a lot.
Dont count on that just yet. There are some ideas in play that address that concern.
Yeah, maybe we could put some flower pots in the middle of the road.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 03:38 pm |
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OK, Bill. Here's the deal to me and others I have spoken with...
1. Gigantic roads without medians are ugly.
2. This is going to cost upwards of $250K in taxpayer funds to 'fix' because the road east of 203rd is going to be next.
3. This stands to benefit the few at a huge cost to many.
4. The medians are not unsafe. To the contrary, they do improve safety by seperating traffic. This is true even if you believe somehow a road in QC is different than a road in TX.
4. This campaign was started because of Russ' store in spite of your failed attempt to paint the picture differently.
I am prepared to begin an effort to fight this if it's not too late and have already taken steps to determine if it is too late. If I am willing to dedicate that kind of time, and potentially change this outcome, it would be prudent to understand your position just in case there really is any valid argument. I certainly have not seen any posted here yet. However, after being called at least a half dozen derogetory names by you, I have absolutely no desire to meet with you in person. In fact, I feel sorry for the people in your life that can't just click you away like I can.
You love to play with words, that much is clear. "Mind altering substances" are equal to "drugs" in any reasonable person's mind. Mind you, I did say 'reasonable'. Own it Bill, you said it.
I think many of us here would like to understand your position. Most of us see this as your campaign to make getting into Russ' store easier. Instead of calling everybody out to come see you, why don't you post this information in a clear, concise form here instead of just calling me names and acting like anybody who doesn't agree with your squandering of our resources is an idiot? Bullet point the basis of this argument.
I think medians down Ellsworth is also a good idea. Access to both Orchard Ranch and Pegasus would make a lot of sense though, as would access to any other communities that are developed along Ellsworth. Look around the valley, this is how it works.
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gsbill
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 02:49 pm |
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clu wrote:
gsbill wrote: Is it OK with you that many council members dont ever recall voting in favor of raised medians?
So they voted FOR It before voting AGAINST it? Damn politicians!
In simple terms yes. Th raised medians on Ocotillo were buried in the proposed plans for the Victorian Lane project. That proposal was back and forth between council and the developer so many times and it had changed so much since 2000 that Maricopa County stated that the whole process should start over. Over the years, starting in 2000 staff recommended that council approve the proposal and they did w/o many of the council members realizing that raised medians were intended for Ocotillo Road in our Town Center. The paperwork we were provided by town staff had drawings that were difficult to make out because they were tiny as was the text that went along with the drawings.
Those proposals/plans for Victoria should have had road improvements that matched our plans. The final approval for Victoria was approved and over the years nobody caught the fact that the road design did not match the plan.
We couldnt find any proof of disclosure to anybody along Ocotillo Road over the years in addition to not being able to find anybody other than one past council member who knew about the medians coming. That council member owns a business on Ocotillo Road.
Town Staff put a notice in that back of newspapers that meetings would be held in tiny print way back in the classifieds sections. They did the minimum to meet the legal aspects regarding notifying residents and business owners.
There really is a lot of information to go over so one can have a full understanding of what happened. It took roughly 50 hours of research by several people to find what we did. Staff and our elected officials thanked us for doing that as we did identify some problems. Town is addressing that now so those problems wont come up in the future.
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gsbill
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 02:25 pm |
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clu wrote:
One nice thing about medians is you can plant nice trees and bushes in the median. This enhances the aesthetics. This is in alignment with QC's beautification plan. And makes driving on the street much more pleasant.
However, now we'll just see a large black, hot street that's pretty darn ugly. Thanks, thanks a lot.
Dont count on that just yet. There are some ideas in play that address that concern.
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clu
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 12:16 pm |
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gsbill wrote: Is it OK with you that many council members dont ever recall voting in favor of raised medians?
So they voted FOR It before voting AGAINST it? Damn politicians!
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azsunshine
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 12:11 pm |
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| Are they going to re-asphalt the entire road to cover up the hole were the median was or are they going to try to "patch" it up. IMO "patches" always looks like crap. Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 12:11 pm by azsunshine
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clu
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 11:59 am |
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One nice thing about medians is you can plant nice trees and bushes in the median. This enhances the aesthetics. This is in alignment with QC's beautification plan. And makes driving on the street much more pleasant.
However, now we'll just see a large black, hot street that's pretty darn ugly. Thanks, thanks a lot.
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gk
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 03:17 am |
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Separating traffic makes a road safer. End of story. NOT ALWAYS TRUE! END OF STORY
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gsbill
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 02:49 am |
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It would be a better representation of the will of the people
The will of the people is clearly laid out in the approved Town Center Plan.
Heres who worked on it...
The Town of Queen Creek would like to acknowledge the following individuals and firms
that were instrumental in the development of the Town Center Plan:
Town Center Committee
Toni Valenzuela, Council Member
Phil Barnes Tami Blount Bernie Bronson
Linda Cary Sylvia Centoz Sharon Coleman
Johan deKaizer Jennifer Duffany Paul Gardner
Dave Nichols Michael Pace Kevin Petersen
Scot Rigby Martin Supulveda Roseanne Sweet
Al Weiss
Planning and Zoning Commission
Paul Schweitzer, Chairman Kathy Trapp-Jackson, Commissioner
Don Atkinson, Commissioner Steve Ingram, Commissioner
Mike Perry, Commissioner Susan Shifman, Vice-Chairman
Steve Sossaman, Commissioner
Town Council
Wendy Feldman-Kerr, Mayor Gary Holloway, Vice Mayor
Gail Barney, Council Member Lisa Coletto-Cohen, Council Member
Joyce Hildebrandt, Council Member Toni Valenzuela, Council Member
Jon Wooten, Council Member David Dobbs, Council Member (formerly)
Town Staff
John Kross, AICP, Assistant Town Manager/Community Development Director
Shawny Ekadis, Senior Planner
Kazi Haque, Planner
Tracy Corman, Management Assistant
Consultant Team
Curtis L. Dunham AICP, Partners for Strategic Action, Inc.
Project Manager
Peggy A. Fiandaca AICP, Partners for Strategic Action, Inc.
Project Planner, Planner, Public Involvement Coordinator
David Wilson AIA, PAA, Inc. (formerly)
Designer
Florencia Giner RLA, Design Workshop, Inc.
Designer
Mark Soden RLA, Design Workshop, Inc. (formerly)
Designer
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gsbill
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 02:46 am |
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DavidB wrote:
gsbill wrote: I never ever mentioned drugs..You jumped to that conclusion.
"Is your foolery fueled by any mind altering substances?" And you're calling ME a liar. Why dont you go door to door over there and spout off like you did here about how they all cost the town money by defending their property, businesses and the approved plan that is in place.
I would prefer to go door to door to the people who have to pay for this. It would be a better representation of the will of the people.
The folks in those homes and business owners were paying the other way and not just a few bucks..Thousands of dollars each and you're Ok with that. If you bothered to find out what happened you would probably oppose the outcome as I did..The outcome being the raised medians in Town Center. Do you care about the Town Center? Do you care about the people who live there? Do you care about their losses?
Are drugs the only mind altering substances David? I asked a question and never made an accusation. You filled in the blanks. Every time you state that the median fight was my project, my mission or the group was mine or my gaggle or that there were ulterior motives you will be lying. I was one of large group that acted and made decisions as a group. You have been told that many times.
The final cost isnt in yet..so why dont you hold on for a bit.
Lets hope a broken process doesnt bring an unwelcomed addition to your street. Medians are coming down Ellsworth. Did you know that? Will you have access to your neighborhood from both directions?
We could really clear up a lot if you were willing.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 02:21 am |
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gsbill wrote: I never ever mentioned drugs..You jumped to that conclusion.
"Is your foolery fueled by any mind altering substances?" And you're calling ME a liar. Why dont you go door to door over there and spout off like you did here about how they all cost the town money by defending their property, businesses and the approved plan that is in place.
I would prefer to go door to door to the people who have to pay for this. It would be a better representation of the will of the people.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 02:13 am |
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gk wrote: DavidB....the studies that you link to, are concerning an entirely fifferent location, traffic flow, Business layouts and have absolutely nothing at all to do with this specific location.
gsbill and the others he was working with, did all of the hard work , took the time involved to learn all they could about the issue, they found a lot of people that were opposed and put it all together, and convinced the municipal government to work FOR THE PEOPLE! Democracy at work
Instead of whining about a mere $15,000 you should, as an American be proud of them. They formed a group of like minded citizens and convinced the government to work for the PEOPLE. And who are THE PEOPLE? The citizens that care enough about their town to actively get involved with it. Those who did not actively work to keep the medians abdicated their right of participation by laziness.
Why would anyone that lives along or around Power road in QC care about the issue? They don't.
At some point you will have to admit to yourself that laziness and lack of participated lost the day for you, no one elses fault.....yours! And those who felt like you do. You just gave up.
And that's another reason that America is being given to rich bankers and the super rich. They care enough about the GREED LUST FOR MONEY to actively make it happen. As you again sit on the sidelines and never communicate by phone, e-mail, letters to the editor and your Congressmen you abdicate your responsibily as an American. You just give up and take it. It's all associated........surrender!!!
Now the rich have taken $850 billion dollars from Americans because lazy Americans never made their voice heard. Where the outrage???? And now you guys are too damn lazy to sit down and talk with gs.......pathetic!
As an American I am extremely proud of this group of people making their concerns be taken seriously. I'm proud of gsbill for putting himself in contempts way and taking the beating for others. A true man of character.........there are so many do nothings out there. But boy..... are they good at complaing on the computer!!!
I knew you 2 would say the street is different than any of the many other similar streets that were studied. Nothing at all to do with this specific location? It's still a road, it still has cars on it, and the median still prevents them from colliding. That is total BS. Separating traffic makes a road safer. End of story.
Quit trying to pretend that this is in the interest of the general public. It's not. It is in the interest of Russ and a few other businesses and homes that are effected, but it comes at the expense of all of us. This isn't for the PEOPLE at all. I would love to see a vote on this issue.
I am FAR from lazy. You don't know a damn thing about me to make that accusation. I built a brick and mortar business from scratch last month and it is up and running. Lazy people can't make that happen. Not sitting down with our self made traffic planner is not a lazy thing either, I just have no respect for him as he has insulted me repeatedly here. It would be a waste of time. He distorted things to accuse me of being a liar. I'm sure his 'research' shares that same distortion.
Again, my lack of involvement was based on the false assumption that the town would shoot down this total waste of $115K+, not the 'mere $15,000 ' you assert. Who knew that they would take this ridiculous campaign seriously. Had I thought for a minute that it had a snowball's chance, I would have gotten involved. This is just lunacy.
I am looking into what it will take to appeal this decision. I'm sure we could get FAR more than 600 signatures to prevent this wasteful spending at a time when the town is hurting so badly.
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 01:39 am |
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orchardranchres wrote:
GK, Personally, I don't care what you think. You don't live in our town, you don't pay taxes here and you can't vote. You ain't paying, so you really shouldn't be worried about us.
Maybe a recap of what happened should be posted? This will let others just tuning in know what happened that will cost millions of tax dollars.
Millions of dollars will be paid out in lawsuits. In no more than 2 years there will be a head on crash and lawyers will sue us for millions of dollars because we had medians but then removed them.
Mayor Sanders is a dunce. He said that it would be less expensive now to remove the median now rather than later. Jeff asked staff if that was true and it wasn't. Sanders can't do simple math and keeps trying to shut the one guy on council that is asking the right questions up.
Craig Barnes is a dunce. I heard him say that if someone had gotten hurt and their vision was impaired or they had a broken arm or broken leg and was driving to the doctor it would be tough for them to make a u-turn. Clu said it and I know it too that isn't a urgent care facility. Even if it was why would someone with impaired vision or broken arm be driving themselves and making u-turns? Craig Barnes I ask you
After Barnes made that rediculous remark then Barney said "I agree" and then Hildebrandt said "I agree" and then the head dunce said "Give me a motion" and then tried to not let Jeff speak.
Go to town website and watch the video. We have bad judgement on council that is going to cost millions of dollars.
What happened at the meeting didnt reflect the 2.5 months of hard work by those opposing the medians, town staff and our elected officials.
Speed limits thru town center will be 25mph to 35mph as they have been for years and years. No deadly accidents on Ocotillo to date. Roads are improved all the time. Following your logic any simple road improvement would result in lawsuits. Do you blame the pencil for words that are mis spelled? What if a family died in a flaming wreck due to the raised medians? Your logic cuts both ways.
The Town Center Plan very clearly addresses safety w/o the implementation of raised medians the way the ones were done on Ocotillo.
Do you have any concern for the property and business owners along Ocotillo? Is it OK with you if they lose thousands of dollars in property values? Is it OK with you if businesses lose thousands in revenue? Is it OK with you if homes become right in right out only? Is it OK with you that due to a broken process that all of that happens w/o their knowledge? Is it OK with you that many council members dont ever recall voting in favor of raised medians? Is it OK with you that there was no accident data for Ocotillo Road to warrant citing safety as an issue?
Does your vision for the Town Center align with our Town Center Plan? Did you know that previous council didnt want what they called "islands" at the new library due to access issues?
Did you know that the median at Russ' was put in wrong and it was going to cost over 21 thousand dollars to fix? Did you know that folks are working on ideas to save the town money as they approach the way the medians are removed that are already in?
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gk
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 01:21 am |
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Since when did it become manditory to live in QC to say that you agree and admire with what they did??
Will you find that law for me??
So WHERE were you in all of this, if it concerned you so much?
oh yeah, I forgot, you sat at home and planned to snivel about it if things did not go your way. You abdicated your participation in YOUR OWN DARN TOWN!!!!
Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 01:22 am by gk
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 01:10 am |
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| Go to the town website to see it. You can watch the dunces at work but be prepared to be afraid, very afraid. These are the dunces running this town. Only a couple of them aren't dunces. http://www.queencreek.org/Index.aspx?page=539
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 01:05 am |
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GK, Personally, I don't care what you think. You don't live in our town, you don't pay taxes here and you can't vote. You ain't paying, so you really shouldn't be worried about us.
Maybe a recap of what happened should be posted? This will let others just tuning in know what happened that will cost millions of tax dollars.
Millions of dollars will be paid out in lawsuits. In no more than 2 years there will be a head on crash and lawyers will sue us for millions of dollars because we had medians but then removed them.
Mayor Sanders is a dunce. He said that it would be less expensive now to remove the median now rather than later. Jeff asked staff if that was true and it wasn't. Sanders can't do simple math and keeps trying to shut the one guy on council that is asking the right questions up.
Craig Barnes is a dunce. I heard him say that if someone had gotten hurt and their vision was impaired or they had a broken arm or broken leg and was driving to the doctor it would be tough for them to make a u-turn. Clu said it and I know it too that isn't a urgent care facility. Even if it was why would someone with impaired vision or broken arm be driving themselves and making u-turns? Craig Barnes I ask you
After Barnes made that rediculous remark then Barney said "I agree" and then Hildebrandt said "I agree" and then the head dunce said "Give me a motion" and then tried to not let Jeff speak.
Go to town website and watch the video. We have bad judgement on council that is going to cost millions of dollars.
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gk
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 12:57 am |
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DavidB....the studies that you link to, are concerning an entirely fifferent location, traffic flow, Business layouts and have absolutely nothing at all to do with this specific location.
gsbill and the others he was working with, did all of the hard work , took the time involved to learn all they could about the issue, they found a lot of people that were opposed and put it all together, and convinced the municipal government to work FOR THE PEOPLE! Democracy at work
Instead of whining about a mere $15,000 you should, as an American be proud of them. They formed a group of like minded citizens and convinced the government to work for the PEOPLE. And who are THE PEOPLE? The citizens that care enough about their town to actively get involved with it. Those who did not actively work to keep the medians abdicated their right of participation by laziness.
Why would anyone that lives along or around Power road in QC care about the issue? They don't.
At some point you will have to admit to yourself that laziness and lack of participated lost the day for you, no one elses fault.....yours! And those who felt like you do. You just gave up.
And that's another reason that America is being given to rich bankers and the super rich. They care enough about the GREED LUST FOR MONEY to actively make it happen. As you again sit on the sidelines and never communicate by phone, e-mail, letters to the editor and your Congressmen you abdicate your responsibily as an American. You just give up and take it. It's all associated........surrender!!!
Now the rich have taken $850 billion dollars from Americans because lazy Americans never made their voice heard. Where the outrage???? And now you guys are too damn lazy to sit down and talk with gs.......pathetic!
As an American I am extremely proud of this group of people making their concerns be taken seriously. I'm proud of gsbill for putting himself in contempts way and taking the beating for others. A true man of character.........there are so many do nothings out there. But boy..... are they good at complaing on the computer!!!
Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 01:01 am by gk
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 12:51 am |
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"I had another idea for a different material in a different location for you, but red hot all the same."
Sorry, bud. That's a threat.
No its not..I offered help.
"Be careful...Telling lies to damage a person is something you can be sued for"
Not a threat either..advice.
I am speaking out on the fact that you and your gaggle managed to strike a huge blow to our town budget because of ulterior motives
Not my gaggle..As I have said many, many times over..You are lying again or wrong or how ever you wish to describe it. There was no ulterior motives. You still dont know what went on and still refuse to get the correct information. Do you really want to know what went on or not?
I never ever mentioned drugs..You jumped to that conclusion.
I wouldn't eat lunch with you if you were the last person on earth. Your arrogance would make me puke it up in my throat anyway.
I'll stop inviting you then..How about we just go over information..NO food?
If I was the last person on earth that would mean that you were not alive and I would be dining alone.
Accuse you? Haha! You made your bed..have a nice nap!
Every study ever done shows that raised medians improve safety. Reducing access points reduces accident rates.
You ever read the Town Center Plan? Have you seen the studies that address raised medians as a retro fit in existing neighborhoods? Or the ones addressing residential areas with many driveways? Or the one addressing u turns? Or the ones addressing down town streets? Have you seen any of the info from around the valley regarding other towns tearing out medians? Have you studied any traffic volume data from around the valley and the respective road designs? Have you questioned any data offered by the town?
I guess you dont care about the 10 home owners on Ocotillo and the business owners either. Why dont you go door to door over there and spout off like you did here about how they all cost the town money by defending their property, businesses and the approved plan that is in place.
Too bad you didnt use your energy to help. You seem to have a lot of spare time to go after those who got involved and made a difference.
I'm glad the thought of me can generate a physical response from you. Even if its only a half puke.
So we'll see you at a meeting here soon I presume as you appear pretty worked up and ready for action.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 12:32 am |
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gsbill wrote: Studies were not a determining factor in what was ultimately decided.
Well, at least we can agree on something.
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DavidB
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 12:08 am |
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gsbill wrote: Is your foolery fueled by any mind altering substances?
Bill, you are a silly, silly man. Now you are accusing me of being on drugs because I am speaking out on the fact that you and your gaggle managed to strike a huge blow to our town budget because of ulterior motives (Russ), not safety. Every study ever done shows that raised medians improve safety. Reducing access points reduces accident rates. Plain, simple math.
Anything else you want to accuse me of while you're at it?
"I had another idea for a different material in a different location for you, but red hot all the same."
Sorry, bud. That's a threat.
"Be careful...Telling lies to damage a person is something you can be sued for"
As is this.
"David..This was not my mission or project ..I was one in a group of many. Dont you understand English. I told you that. You are now a liar."
It makes me a liar to point out that you are the voice of this debacle on this forum? You just admitted it was 'your job'.
How about lunch?
I wouldn't eat lunch with you if you were the last person on earth. Your arrogance would make me puke it up in my throat anyway.
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Sat Oct 4th, 2008 11:53 pm |
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DavidB wrote:
gsbill wrote: I did call you a liar for...well...lying. Lying to damage my character.
Show me where Bill.
Go back and read..How about lunch?
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DavidB
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Posted: Sat Oct 4th, 2008 11:52 pm |
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gsbill wrote: I did call you a liar for...well...lying. Lying to damage my character.
Show me where Bill.
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Sat Oct 4th, 2008 11:52 pm |
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DavidB wrote:
http://www.ctre.iastate.edu/research/access/toolkit/18.pdf
http://www.udot.utah.gov/main/f?p=100:pg:12302720542229821131::::V,T:28676,1817
http://ntlsearch.bts.gov/tris/record/tris/00935938.html
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pressroom/fhwa0816.htm
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/ACCESSMGT/docs/Medians.pdf
I guess all these studies were done by dumb, clueless, wrong, liars too right Bill?
Many of the studies dont apply to a road like our Town Center has. the Town Center Plan addresses safety very much in depth. Studies were not a determining factor in what was ultimately decided. the big issue was the broken process and the abandonment of our Town Center Plan that followed. Dont take my word for it. I'm sure somebody at town can fill you in.
YOU should quit putting yourself down. You have no info on this issue and what transpired over the last 2.5 months. You refuse to listen when advised about what went on and then continue to spout off things that are not true.
I'll be glad to show you lotsa of information and answer all your questions. Get with CF and lets have lunch and chat. Whats the big deal?
I'll even work around your busy work schedule and make time for you.
You and CF should come to the TAC meetings.
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Sat Oct 4th, 2008 11:43 pm |
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CrimeFighter wrote:
GSBill,
David never lied, and the fact that a small handful of people were able to gather a few hundred signatures hardly indicates a groundswell. I'm st |