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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 12:13 am |
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congrats russ et al. You've proven that the squeeky wheel gets the grease.
Thats not the case in the way you meant it. The fight started at the beginning where the group discovered a break down in the process by which the medians came about. Further along all the points that were ignored in the Town Center Plan were highlighted. Even further along we found no evidence of disclosure to those directly affected. After that we addressed the safety issues citing many different studies and examples from around the valley. We studied traffic volumes around the valley and offered everything up in a presentation that lasted about 25 minutes. It really was a lot of work. To simply sum it up as the squeaky wheel got the oil and it all being about Russ' is not accurate or fair to all involved including our elected officials and town staff. They also worked hard on this.
Another benefit from the groups work with town officials and staff is that the process by which things like the medians come about will be changed and improved. Policies will be developed that address access management to further insure the right thing is done and proper identified process is followed thru from beginning to end.
The end result with Ocotillo is a road designed per the Town Center Plan that will be safe with wider lanes and bike lanes while allowing access for established businesses and established residences.
Please dont boil this down to the squeaky wheel got the oil. In so doing the entire council and staff is reduced to nothing more than a batch of easily manipulated people. That is very, very far from the truth. They worked as hard as the group did on their end for over 2 months. Much of their work was helping us get info which we used to fight for the cause. Agree, disagree or indifferent, they deserve respect for what they all did.
Regarding petition signature numbers. Take a look at the last vote which drew 13% of the towns registered voters which voted to pass significant amendments to the General Plan. 645 signatures is a lot for one issue. They dont all have to be town residents either. Many out of towners own businesses and work in town as do many shoppers who frequent town center establishments. Part of towns pitch was addressing traffic passing thru town. In the same breath, those pass thru, out of town folks should have some say. Dont you think so?
Also recall this wasnt all about Russ and his store alone.
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geaston
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jun 27th, 2008 |
| Location: | Queen Creek |
| Posts: | 68 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 11:48 pm |
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few questions here and sorry that i wasn't involved- and i just want clarification. if this is too rudimentary, then chalk it up to a citizen who is not that invovled.
first of all, thanks jeff for summarizing both what transpired and the reasoning for your vote. i appreciate that you even disclose your minority view in this case.
secondly, regarding the whole process here, there were 645 signatures in a town that has about 20k+ right? so that's all you need to get the ball moving? i assume that they were all registered citizens within town limits. i didn't realize that 645 signatures and actively arguing for this cause could have such a quick and decisive effect.
now, craig pointed out the safety issue with the urgent care being the driving factor for this revised decision. i tried looking up this urgent care center but they're not on the Chamber website so perhaps it's not an urgent care center. regardless, let's continue. if you look at a map, wouldn't most patrons of that urgent care center be coming from the West? - you drive north or south on Hawes and turn on Ocotillo and turn right into the parking lot. of course you've got Will Rogers neighbors, but i figure they can just hop the wall and walk there. So addressing possible patients coming from the east. They'd live in the Villages, by the High School, Queenland Manor, by the fire station, etc. Isn't there another urgent care center by the Autozone? So maybe half would go to that one, the other half to Russ' neighbor right? But say you have a piece of rebar sticking out of your leg, or have a heart attack- is an urgent care really the best place to go for something like that? and would the injured person be driving? I know when my son split his chin open, we drove like a bat out of hell to the hospital, but i don't think a U-Turn would have caused an accident- plus my son wasn't driving- he's only 3.
But is it an urgent care facility? or is it a clinic? I honestly have no idea. If that's the case, you'd go there if you have the flu or a sprained ankle or the clap. I'm not sure how that would be a safety issue in those types of situations.
Either way, I trust that this safety issue truly was the deciding factor and not based on any other factors.
How about the cost of this. $115k. where will this come from? will it be diverted from another current project? will it have to come out of further cuts in the town? how soon does this have to be fixed? what happens to the project in the meantime?
congrats russ et al. You've proven that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. i personally wouldn't have minded the u-turn- i'm never in that much of a hurry- unless i've got an active plumbing leak. speaking of precedence, here's a perfect example of being able to accomplish something at the town level. how bout we learn from this example and become more active in our community, our town, our state and our country. Don't forget to vote!
Last edited on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 11:51 pm by geaston
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DavidB
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| Joined: | Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 417 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 09:29 pm |
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gsbill wrote: Too bad you dont get it David..and yet feel the need to get in more digs. You have no clue and have come to wrong judgements. So you work..big deal..So do I and many others.
You're telling me to lay off personal digs while telling me "I don't get it" and have "no clue". Hmmm.. ok. You have the last word.
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 08:52 pm |
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Too bad you dont get it David..and yet feel the need to get in more digs. You have no clue and have come to wrong judgements. So you work..big deal..So do I and many others.
Post your views..Keep it from being personal..OK..fair enough?
There were 645 signatures on the petitions we submitted.
To me, this was clearly an issue of a few disgruntled business owners and residents who cost the town a lot of money by way of pure tenacity
Yep..you are entitled to your view. Rock On! Right or wrong..its your right. Its easy to get stuff wrong when you dont have the facts to go on. Hey..its your right..Post away.
You based your judgements on the wrong conclusion because you dont really know what went on for the last 2 months and change. Hey..its your right to have a view..post away!
Your views are not news to me. I did expect a few to come out with remarks like yours. So very predictable and very much expected. I would have been surprised if nobody showed up with your views and opinions.
If you dont want to lock horns...get off the personal digs.
I'll be glad to show you all the facts any time you like. Just let me know. This issue was way bigger than just the median.
I need to get back to work and pay some bills. I bet you do also.
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DavidB
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| Joined: | Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 08:35 pm |
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gsbill wrote: DavidB wrote:
Great, another $115K+++ down the tubes and weeks or months of deconstruction. Now that's progress. 
Bravo Bill.
I agree with Lisa on leadership. This is an embarassment.
Listen close. I was one member of a group of many. Too bad you didnt bother to get educated on this before making judgements regarding those who took on the fight. If you want to dis me..make an appointment and we can talk. Simple posts on the internet wont get it done.
Whats really funny is folks from Pegasus have asked me to help them with your cause.
You have a problem with the democratic process? You knew we were fighting the medians. Why didnt you mount a fight to keep them? Or did you? You did make a few posts on the internet.
Again, I am but 1 resident of a neighborhood. I am but 1 voice and NOT equated to "the folks of Pegasus" as a whole. I have some great neighbors, but their views might be very different than my own. That's everyone's right. Why would any dialog you have with other people have anything to do with me other than we live in the same neighborhood? I don't see why that's "really funny".
Do I have to agree with you on what I consider to be a trivial issue, in order to have your support on another? I'm not "dis"ing you, I am merely stating that I think this was a gross misuse of very limited town funds and you were clearly the face of this cause, at least on this forum.
I don't have a problem with the democratic process, nor the right to express my opinion as protected by the constitution. I run 2 businesses and have no time to dedicate to becoming a weekend traffic planner. I just know that a median has never prevented me from getting to or from any business I wanted to get to. Inconvenient at times for sure, but not the end for the world and not worth throwing a bunch of money at to 'fix'.
To me, this was clearly an issue of a few disgruntled business owners and residents who cost the town a lot of money by way of pure tenacity - money the town doesn't have.
It sure would be nice to see someone outside of the council champion a cause that would actually benefit us instead of burying us even deeper. I just feel it was fiscally reckless and like you am entitled to voice my opinion. After all, its partially my money your contingent just spent.
I don't want to lock horns with you, Bill. I have my view, and you have yours. You have expressed yourself immensly here, now I have posted my view. Let's just leave it at that.
Dave
Last edited on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 09:01 pm by DavidB
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 07:59 pm |
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DavidB wrote:
Great, another $115K+++ down the tubes and weeks or months of deconstruction. Now that's progress.
Bravo Bill.
I agree with Lisa on leadership. This is an embarassment.
Listen close. I was one member of a group of many. Too bad you didnt bother to get educated on this before making judgements regarding those who took on the fight. If you want to dis me..make an appointment and we can talk. Simple posts on the internet wont get it done.
Whats really funny is folks from Pegasus have asked me to help them with your cause.
You have a problem with the democratic process? You knew we were fighting the medians. Why didnt you mount a fight to keep them? Or did you? You did make a few posts on the internet.
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 07:50 pm |
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Council Member Barnes, I defended you last time when you changed your mind but this time, with the lame excuse you gave, it makes me believe you responded to none other than heavy lobbying
Added note..The contact with Barnes was now much at all. Barnes was not heavily lobbied as one may contend. I talked to him 2 times in person and a few times on the phone. Jeff Brown was the one talked to the most. I dont think a day went by that we did not talk about raised medians in 2 months. I know Barnes went out and talked to folks, drove the roads and drew his own conclusions on several fronts.
The efforts talking with council members was focused on getting all of them to read the thru the history and the facts. It wasnt a play on emotions or baseless attempts to get minds changed. We had lots of convincing information to present.
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DavidB
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| Joined: | Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 07:18 pm |
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Great, another $115K+++ down the tubes and weeks or months of deconstruction. Now that's progress.
Bravo Bill.
I agree with Lisa on leadership. This is an embarassment.
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 06:58 pm |
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Finally, Mr. Median himself, GSBill. Congrats on a successful campaign. I didn't think you could do it but you hung in there. I guess the flip side of this could be that the Council heard what you had to say. I just wish they had heard it a few months ago.
Lisa. The key to this whole thing was the facts. The case was presented based on them and mostly all of the material was on town paperwork. Minds were changed. It took a lot of hard work and its refreshing to see that our elected officials and town staff listening to residents and respecting the hard work that was done. It was a big under taking and a team effort.
What sense is it to follow thru with something wrong? The first votes were rushed. Lets not let that happen again.
Maybe we can grab that lunch some time soon and talk. Some things appear impossible to over come. As we know the impossible does become possible with hard work, a plan and the willingness of all involved to work thru the tough stuff.
Thanks to all of our elected officials and town staff for listening and letting us present all we had to offer. This is a fine example of how the democratic process is alive and well in Queen Creek.
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gsbill
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 06:48 pm |
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1) haste. the Town Council voted two weeks ago to have our Transportation Advisory Committee (TAC) which is a RESIDENT committee with Town Staff support, take on the task of researching and investigating options related to access management (including medians) as they relate to Town Center streets. the TAC committee made up of residents, (and with an appointment at this same meeting of Bill Fischback a resident opposed to this particular median) would have looked at all aspects including, Safety, Traffic Counts, Aesthetics, and Costs - to name a few... and then bring back a formal and well thought out recommendation to the Council.
I disagree Jeff. The research was done and presented to you and the other council members and staff regarding the installed medians BEFORE they were installed. WE had identified the broken process and addressed all the other issues prior to council getting stuck on safety and voting YES for raised medians. IF our presented info was noted QC could have saved 100k bucks. You saw it all and we read much of it together. The estimated re work was 100k for the entire length of Ocotillo before the median concrete was installed. I aslo told you in person that there are ideas to put in play addressing aesthetics. Two months of hard work presented you and the other council members with a well thought out recommendation brought to you by the people. The committee of the people should never be taken lightly.
2) aesthetics. the removal of the median last evening nets us with plain blacktop with yellow striping to delineate the center turn lane as a replacement.
Thats not a lost cause as I told you. Why harp on this stuff now? Quite frankly I am surprised. You should have listened the first time around.
3) cost. the cost to remove this stretch is estimated to be $115,000.
The cost was less if the right decision was made the first time. It was 100 grand for the re work. Mr. Pacelli is to be commended for coming up with a SAFER road design including the 2 way left turn lane. the bike lanes will be 5 feet wide instead of 4.5 feet and the lanes will be 12 feet wide each, not 11 and 13 feet.
4) precedent. the portion of median that the Council approved to be removed last evening is from 203rd, west to the QC Wash. there is a stretch of median from 203rd EAST bound that is quite likely to be the next stretch requested to be removed.
Whats up with that? You know as well as I and many others that issue will be on the next meetings agenda. Thank goodness for that as those folks living there will have their quality of life back.
Really.. congratulations is not in order. I and many others did our research and presented facts that needed to be addressed. I was just one of many. We displayed and proved our point in hopes of righting a wrong. Last night you had another plat presented that showed raised medians on Ocotillo. Did that get approved? Did anybody point out raised medians? Was access reviewed and discussed? Or are we on another path to getting something nobody recalls voting on.
Justify all you want Jeff. I know that you know the facts and cant really deny many of them as to how these medians came about. We'll be real careful to make sure stuff like this does not happen again. You have even agreed that the attention to detail is critical as you review proposed items.
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Lisa.Coletto.Cohen
Member
| Joined: | Thu Feb 21st, 2008 |
| Location: | Queen Creek |
| Posts: | 266 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 04:00 pm |
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Regardless of one's position on the median issue as a whole, the issue is far more encompassing than just medians. It shows another example, one of many, that the Council is unable to make a decision and stick to it. This is a lack of top down leadership. It is not acceptable two members of our elected body, given the same information (again and again over a period of months) to make different decisions which potentially cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Council Member Barnes, I defended you last time when you changed your mind but this time, with the lame excuse you gave, it makes me believe you responded to none other than heavy lobbying. Are you voting for what you believe is best for the community? Art, this is another fine example of how you will do whatever the most people in the room tell you to. The outcome would have been fine, less money spent, decreased community strife etc, if it had only been made in the first place. Do you know what the definition of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is?
I am curious, what would we have gotten for the 200K that you are now spending to remove the medians? Don't you dare even tell me it is coming from contingency. This does not include any money that was spent in delays, change orders, etc , nor the installation in the first place. So what is the actual total cost to the taxpayers for this fiasco? What are we loosing for your lack of decision making and leadership?
Finally, Mr. Median himself, GSBill. Congrats on a successful campaign. I didn't think you could do it but you hung in there. I guess the flip side of this could be that the Council heard what you had to say. I just wish they had heard it a few months ago.
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clu
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 4th, 2005 |
| Location: | TOQC |
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 10:07 am |
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QCVillager wrote: One complaint Barnes said he heard over and over was that the median blocked left turn access to a nearby medical clinic, which could pose a danger for people trying to make a U-turn to get treatment while injured.
"I know we've pushed safety," Barnes said. "And having broken several bones of my own, I know that would be an issue, making a U-turn into a doctor's office."
Huh? Isn't that a physical therapist office? Who goes to a physical therapist office for broken bones?
Or is his referring to some other doctor's office?
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QCVillager
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 09:20 am |
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Congratulations to Russ Carlson, Bill Fischbach and the others who doggedly and tirelessly lobbied Town Council to remove median along Ocotillo between 203rd St west to the QC Wash.
now that the vote has been taken, the item has been decided 5-2. i respect the Council's collective decision and will support same.
by way of clairification on the item (i think the news article didn't quite capture my thoughts)... my vote against removing the median this evening was based on a couple of factors...
1) haste. the Town Council voted two weeks ago to have our Transportation Advisory Committee (TAC) which is a RESIDENT committee with Town Staff support, take on the task of researching and investigating options related to access management (including medians) as they relate to Town Center streets. the TAC committee made up of residents, (and with an appointment at this same meeting of Bill Fischback a resident opposed to this particular median) would have looked at all aspects including, Safety, Traffic Counts, Aesthetics, and Costs - to name a few... and then bring back a formal and well thought out recommendation to the Council.
we just voted on that two weeks ago... so i was very much in favor of letting that resident committee put in the time and research to come to the best conclusions rather than have us circumvent that process in a matter of a 20 discussion.
2) aesthetics. the removal of the median last evening nets us with plain blacktop with yellow striping to delineate the center turn lane as a replacement. we hear and we say over and over that we want something a bit better for Queen Creek and to have something that isn't Gilbert - Part II, or a copy of Mesa, Chandler, etc... this plain cross section won't have the level of aesthetics that i am hearing that our residents seek, no tree'd center strip or ornamental boulevard type treatments here.
3) cost. the cost to remove this stretch is estimated to be $115,000. this is a huge chunk of change and with the cost of asphalt actually showing downward trending... there was no advantage from a net cost perspective to doing this now rather than waiting for the formal recommendation from the TAC (which was due in January). $115,000 is a HUGE sum of money when one looks at the economic conditions within the Town.
as we know, we have cut head count at Town Hall, cut salaries of Town Staff by 6% and have moth-balled nearly $25m in capital improvement projects including $8.5m worth of road improvements and widenings (Rittenhouse widening and intersection improvements among them). folks, our Transportation budget for this year already got slashed somewhere between 30-35%. i would submit we don't have $115,000 just sitting around.
4) precedent. the portion of median that the Council approved to be removed last evening is from 203rd, west to the QC Wash. there is a stretch of median from 203rd EAST bound that is quite likely to be the next stretch requested to be removed. the precedent has been established. using the same $75 sq/yd estimate to remove that median and put in same plain blacktop with yellow striped line... we find that that stretch would cost another $135,000 to remove. add both sections together and the Total that this is estimated to cost is actually $250k. again, an absolutely mind boggling number in this economic climate.
i have knowledge of a good number of stores in the Town that are struggling big time (not based on loss of business to any medians, but instead, simply by way of people curtailing their spending). i am greatly concerned about sales tax receipts for the Town and if the businesses i am talking about fold then there will be a negative impact to other nearby stores since as we know... stores cluster to drive business to each other. they are interdependent to that extent.
again... i found myself in the minority of the Council on this item... yet... i don't take it personally. i accept the collective decision by Town Council and support same. my thoughts above are only for clarification and to let the voters know my reasoning for my NAY vote. it is important to me that even if someone doesn't agree with me, i want them to understand my reasoning and how i came to my conclusions.
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QCVillager
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 08:25 am |
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http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/127166
October 1, 2008 - 11:25PM
Q.C. council votes to remove median
Amanda Keim, Tribune
The raised median in front of Russ' True Value Hardware store will soon be no more. Queen Creek's Town Council voted 5-2 to remove a raised median along Ocotillo Road between 203rd Street to the Queen Creek wash.
That median had been the subject of much debate, especially after Russ' True Value Hardware Store owner Russ Carlson pleaded with the council to not put the median in because it would keep customers from making left turns into his business's main entrance.
But the reason the issue was originally placed on the agenda had nothing to do with the hardware store. Instead, it was to officially approve a westbound left turn lane at Victoria Drive, a cut out giving access to a driveway between the hardware store and the Queen Creek Veterinary Clinic that was always intended to go in but wasn't constructed that way due to a flaw in the approved design.
With the approval of that left turn lane already on the agenda, the town decided to put removing the entire median on the table as well.
Councilman Craig Barnes said he had been to the area and talked to customers and business owners.
One complaint Barnes said he heard over and over was that the median blocked left turn access to a nearby medical clinic, which could pose a danger for people trying to make a U-turn to get treatment while injured.
"I know we've pushed safety," Barnes said. "And having broken several bones of my own, I know that would be an issue, making a U-turn into a doctor's office."
Most of the council voiced agreement immediately after Barnes made that argument, though Mayor Art Sanders did note during the vote the town had received a petition opposing the median with more than 600 signatures.
Carlson looked surprised when Barnes made his initial argument and grinned when the vote was finished. A few anti-median activists in the audience clapped, and several people approached Carlson to congratulate him and shake his hand immediately after the vote.
Councilman Jeff Brown voted against removing the median because he wanted more analysis and Councilman Gordon Mortensen voted no because he wanted to give a committee working on a traffic plan for the downtown area more time to bring back recommendations.
The removal will cost the town an estimated $115,000. The town has to put the project out for a bid before it has a definitive cost.
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