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DavidB
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Posted: Fri Oct 31st, 2008 04:41 pm |
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Bambi wrote: I'm done. Need a break.
Thanks, I think we can use one too.
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 07:23 pm |
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Lets resign ourselves that something has to be done to solve the existing problems. Let's hope someone has the answer.....one of these guys. But either way; either guy; it is going to cost all of us one way or another.
I had a pizza store too. Let's compare recipes some day. Got a pizza oven?
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 07:20 pm |
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Bambi wrote:
Jeff. Have you ever had a business?
yes, owned Pizza places. no funny jokes about organized crime or anything please. Did you buy your home in 05 like hundreds of others did. Did you think you could afford that home back then? Did your income provide for that? Now that home is worth less I'm sure than what you paid for it, as is the rule with most people out here. Does that reduction in value mean you made a bad choice or poor decision in buying that home, or were you a victim of the recessionary pull back as most people were out here? actually, i bought in late 2002 and closed in 2003. i am fortunate to have purchased right time and so am not upside down. i "underbought" by quite a bit. i could easily have afforded much more home... but am conservative by nature.
Now can you tell us all the business's you know out here that you know for a fact made poor decisions thereby losing their business. I know of none. The Daily Buzz? Were his decisions bad, or was he a victim of the downturn? He felt he was a victim, and took his own life, as many other business owners have recently done.
please understand if i just can't go there with you. if i said that there were a number of mistakes made, that would be speaking ill of the dead. i didn't know Bill super well, but did get a chance to chat with him at length a few times. a really great person and i miss him.
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Lisa.Coletto.Cohen
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 07:18 pm |
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Big Show,
I am just one of many small businesses. I don't feel comfortable discussing my income or financial situation on a public forum. Suffice to say, more tax would not be welcome or appreciated and would have a negative effect on our employee numbers. It is not a solution so much as another problem. The pie is only so big, reward small business who treat their employees well, provide benefits (like health), that's something the state or fed doesn't have to then pick up if I already have. There are ways to encourage small business growth. I think sometimes we are lumped into the discussion under "big corporations" but really we are a whole other animal. People are not numbers, we don't have an HR department, we have me, average Joe (only female).
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 07:12 pm |
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QCVillager wrote: Bambi wrote: DavidB wrote: Bambi wrote: Many small business's have gone out of business out here in the San Tan Area. I know many of the owners. They lost everything including their inventory, as that went to the landlord to pay for the overdue rent. These people would love the opportunity for a small business loan to start over. They will jump at being able to sustain themselves again. But everyone will have to cooperate and make sacrifices.
So let me get this right. Because I made sounds decisions and worked extremely hard to make my business a success, it needs to 'cooperate and sacrifice' so that someone who made a bad business choice can use my money to take another crack with another ill conceived business plan? And this isn't socialism? What am I missing here?
What you are missing here are the reasons the business's failed. They didn't fail because of a bad business choice; they didn't have an ill conceived business plan. they were all very successful until the economy failed. If no once comes into your business to purchase your items, you have a business that is suffering a negative economic impact. If the landlord who is getting exorbatant rents anyway, will not lower his rent to cushion the fall, so to keep a tenant, then you have a business that has failed because of circumstances beyond their control.
that is so NOT true. i know of many businesses here locally including San Tan area who made very poor business decisions. the mere idea of locating where you can't afford the going rent is poor decision number 1.
I give up. I stated the business's I know out here that failed. Locating where you can't afford the rent? Are you kidding me? This was in 05. Everyone thought they could afford the rent, including the bankers who loaned them the money and approved their business plan and their overhead, and afford the rent they did. But what happens when customers stop coming in? Ask the business's out in Copper Basin that closed.
Jeff. Have you ever had a business? Did you buy your home in 05 like hundreds of others did. Did you think you could afford that home back then? Did your income provide for that? Now that home is worth less I'm sure than what you paid for it, as is the rule with most people out here. Does that reduction in value mean you made a bad choice or poor decision in buying that home, or were you a victim of the recessionary pull back as most people were out here?
Now can you tell us all the business's you know out here that you know for a fact made poor decisions thereby losing their business. I know of none. The Daily Buzz? Were his decisions bad, or was he a victim of the downturn? He felt he was a victim, and took his own life, as many other business owners have recently done. Not because of their failure to run their business properly, but because of the lack of customers. Lack of customers that so many business's are feeling today, everywhere, and are still failing. No revenue; no business. People are not spending their money like they did back then, so those small shops and restaruants that were successful and able to pay their bills, are closing down.
I'm done. Need a break.
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 07:03 pm |
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| Lisa can I ask you a question? Does your business pull in more than 250K a year? Don't have to say how much, just a yes or no will suffice.
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Lisa.Coletto.Cohen
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 07:00 pm |
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QCVillager wrote:
finally, maybe the question ought not be "who on this forum makes $250k ?" (especially since i don't and yet would be responsible for four figures more under Obama than McCain)... perhaps it should be "who on this forum owes their job to a small business person ?" or "who on this forum would be adversely affected by a stifling of the American spirit of aspiration, by the de-incentivizing of hard work/risk taking that has been the hallmark of the American Dream ?"
I am with QCV here. The truth is I personally employ twenty people and if the economy keeps up this way, I won't be employing this many for long. Not because I don't want to but because I can't.
We (small business) already have more taxes already heaped on us in the form of property taxes (where I and other QC business owners are picking up slack for Westcor and Vestars abatements), school bonding, skyrocketing license fees, health insurance fees through the roof ( I pay 100% of my employees and some will be over $600/month, they average about $450/month and go up 25%/year), add my match for their 401K's, continuing education fees, paid time off for it and just the general cost of business going up due to inflation, it is only getting worse. Add all this to decreased customer traffic (income) and you begin to see the problem for a majority of small business. Now, these are my problems, but they are also the problems of many a Mom and Pop struggling to get by and due the right thing for their employees.
My employees, show up, do their job, complain about what they are paid and leave. Who took the risk, who got their education, who paid off their student loans, who took the risk by putting their house as collateral on their first loan? It is not my staff. More taxes are killing small businesses across America. And as for the 250, 200, 150 comment, how much is risk, blood sweat and tears and time worth? My husband and I worked without a vacation for the first 5 years of our first business, we worked six days a week, saw all of our after hours emergencies and took a combined salary of 40K/year for 5 years. Thats a doctor and a bachelors degreed person taking 20K/year. It worked out to less than $5/hour (minimum wage). We did it because we knew one day things would get better and we would be able to have and do what we wanted because of us paying our dues. It wasn't easy. We made many sacrifices to get where we are today, sacrifices not shared by those who complain if they work 10 minutes past their scheduled time to go.
I am not complaining about my staff, I am very fortunate to have such a caring and educated group but I am still faced with many of the problems. Bottom line is that people only care so much when it is not their business. When I say care, I am in no way meaning the quality of patient care, in this respect, I am really lucky. I am more refering to hours, calling off, their families being more important etc. Their lives are the priority, not my business. If they have one appointment or twelve in the same time they make the same hourly wage.
If people who actually work, and take the risk are then precluded from their reward, what will be the motivation to continue that entrepreneurial spirit we as Americans are known for? If you take away the dream, you take away the motivation to strive for it.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:49 pm |
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Bambi wrote: DavidB wrote: Bambi wrote: Many small business's have gone out of business out here in the San Tan Area. I know many of the owners. They lost everything including their inventory, as that went to the landlord to pay for the overdue rent. These people would love the opportunity for a small business loan to start over. They will jump at being able to sustain themselves again. But everyone will have to cooperate and make sacrifices.
So let me get this right. Because I made sounds decisions and worked extremely hard to make my business a success, it needs to 'cooperate and sacrifice' so that someone who made a bad business choice can use my money to take another crack with another ill conceived business plan? And this isn't socialism? What am I missing here?
What you are missing here are the reasons the business's failed. They didn't fail because of a bad business choice; they didn't have an ill conceived business plan. they were all very successful until the economy failed. If no once comes into your business to purchase your items, you have a business that is suffering a negative economic impact. If the landlord who is getting exorbatant rents anyway, will not lower his rent to cushion the fall, so to keep a tenant, then you have a business that has failed because of circumstances beyond their control.
that is so NOT true. i know of many businesses here locally including San Tan area who made very poor business decisions. the mere idea of locating where you can't afford the going rent is poor decision number 1.
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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| Well put Bambi. If the business has more money, the employees stick around for a while but if the customers don't have money, the business will fail. My mother was just laid off from a small travel agency after working there 13 years. Anyone want to blame Obama? I don't. Customers don't have money to travel, the business dried up. Bush's tax cuts to that business kept my mom employed longer but the inevitable still happened. Put the money in the hands of the middle class, that business would succeed.
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:41 pm |
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DavidB wrote: Bambi wrote: Many small business's have gone out of business out here in the San Tan Area. I know many of the owners. They lost everything including their inventory, as that went to the landlord to pay for the overdue rent. These people would love the opportunity for a small business loan to start over. They will jump at being able to sustain themselves again. But everyone will have to cooperate and make sacrifices.
So let me get this right. Because I made sounds decisions and worked extremely hard to make my business a success, it needs to 'cooperate and sacrifice' so that someone who made a bad business choice can use my money to take another crack with another ill conceived business plan? And this isn't socialism? What am I missing here?
What you are missing here are the reasons the business's failed. They didn't fail because of a bad business choice; they didn't have an ill conceived business plan. they were all very successful until the economy failed. If no once comes into your business to purchase your items, you have a business that is suffering a negative economic impact. If the landlord who is getting exorbatant rents anyway, will not lower his rent to cushion the fall, so to keep a tenant, then you have a business that has failed because of circumstances beyond their control. I have many clients who read/post on this forum that had their local business's fail out here and lost their homes and cars as a consequence of that failure. It is my intent to do everything I can to help them get back on their feet. Is that socialism? It's all about attitudes. If you define socialism as helping your fellow man get back on his feet because of circumstances that were beyond his control, whether it be thru donations of clothes, food or "money" thru taxation or gift, then so be it. That's your definition but not mine. Mine is brotherhood and sisterhood. Helpiing my fellow man survive. Treating others the way I would want to be treated.Last edited on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:42 pm by Bambi
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DavidB
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:30 pm |
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Bambi wrote: Many small business's have gone out of business out here in the San Tan Area. I know many of the owners. They lost everything including their inventory, as that went to the landlord to pay for the overdue rent. These people would love the opportunity for a small business loan to start over. They will jump at being able to sustain themselves again. But everyone will have to cooperate and make sacrifices.
So let me get this right. Because I made sounds decisions and worked extremely hard to make my business a success, it needs to 'cooperate and sacrifice' so that someone who made a bad business choice can use my money to take another crack with another ill conceived business plan? And this isn't socialism? What am I missing here?
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:28 pm |
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Bambi wrote:
Quit trying to save the world? I'm afraid it's ingrained into our psyche to help our fellow man. We are our brother's keeper. We are our sister's keeper. That notion has been taught to us from the beginning of our nation, thru our churches, our communities our government. Equality to all. Opportunities for all. We are a harbor for those desiring opportunities and personal freedoms. Are you suggesting we turn off our Beacon?
i am all for giving a Hand UP, not a Hand OUT. we are also a nation founded on the principles of Personal Responsibility and sadly, much of that is going by the wayside.
teach a person to fish and you feed him/her for a LIFETIME.
opportunities to succeed and to prosper. Free Education for ALL. Equal Opportunities - YES, heck YES !
but let us not reward hard work and prosperity with PUNITIVE TAXES ! let us not deincentivize hard work and risk taking.
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DavidB
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:26 pm |
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Bambi wrote: Equality to all. Opportunities for all. We are a harbor for those desiring opportunities and personal freedoms. Are you suggesting we turn off our Beacon?
Equal opportunity to all is not the same as Equality for all. Therein lies the fundamental difference between our views. Freedom includes the freedom to succeed in this country. When you tax people to the point where there is no reward, business stops. Small business will do it's thing once money is put in their hands. A loan is not 'putting money in their hands'. A loan is just that - a loan. All that does is facilitate them going down a path of Herculean effort and risk only to hit a glass ceiling above which lies the illusion of hope for prosperity. Small business will 'do its thing' when its not taxed to the point that it can't function and grow.
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:17 pm |
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DavidB wrote: Bambi wrote: Where do you think we will get the money to upgrade our Country's infrastructure? Where do you think we get money to keep our economy going and provide for the general welfare of it's people? Taxation was put in place to pay for these things, and we the people provide those funds. Like it or not, taxation is here to stay, unless you have another idea.. How do you propose to rebuild this country and it's infrastructure without taxation by using the progressive plan? What's your proposal?
Nobody is saying taxation is not a necessary component of a society. What this arguments like these continue to gloss over is that increasing tax RATES will decrease tax REVENUES. The reciprocal is also true and that is what our policies need to be reflect. This is because the truly wealthy ( not the small businesses Obama is targeting ) will simply adapt their investment business strategies to avoid the taxation altogether by means of deferment and tax havens. People with big money can afford to wait it out until the tax climate is more friendly. In the meantime our economy grinds to a halt.
My proposal would be to CUT tax rates even more, thereby increasing tax revenues, stop trying to save the world with acts like the Global Poverty Act and grind the spending machine in Washington to a halt instead of our economy. Let American small business do its thing and pull us out of this mess.
I hear your argument and understand where you are coming from. And you are right about the truly wealthy looking for loopholes to avoid taxation.....unless those loopholes are closed.
Quit trying to save the world? I'm afraid it's ingrained into our psyche to help our fellow man. We are our brother's keeper. We are our sister's keeper. That notion has been taught to us from the beginning of our nation, thru our churches, our communities our government. Equality to all. Opportunities for all. We are a harbor for those desiring opportunities and personal freedoms. Are you suggesting we turn off our Beacon?
You will see alot of government programs shut down, which will stop the unnecessary spending. Some will be substituted with programs that are more conducive to the growth of our character, our income and our States, our economic growth. And that all costs money. It's all about sacrifice during this reconstruction time.
Small business will do it's thing once money is put in their hands. Many small business's have gone out of business out here in the San Tan Area. I know many of the owners. They lost everything including their inventory, as that went to the landlord to pay for the overdue rent. These people would love the opportunity for a small business loan to start over. They will jump at being able to sustain themselves again. But everyone will have to cooperate and make sacrifices. That includes the landlord who will have to take less per sq. ft. for his store. They will be able to start up again if we all help. That beacon will not go out.
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DavidB
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:52 pm |
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Bambi wrote: Where do you think we will get the money to upgrade our Country's infrastructure? Where do you think we get money to keep our economy going and provide for the general welfare of it's people? Taxation was put in place to pay for these things, and we the people provide those funds. Like it or not, taxation is here to stay, unless you have another idea.. How do you propose to rebuild this country and it's infrastructure without taxation by using the progressive plan? What's your proposal?
Nobody is saying taxation is not a necessary component of a society. What arguments like these continue to gloss over is that increasing tax RATES will decrease tax REVENUES. The reciprocal is also true and that is what our policies need to reflect. This is because the truly wealthy ( not the small businesses Obama is targeting ) will simply adapt their investment business strategies to avoid the taxation altogether by means of deferment and tax havens. People with big money can afford to wait it out until the tax climate is more friendly. In the meantime our economy grinds to a halt.
My proposal would be to CUT tax rates even more, thereby increasing tax revenues, stop trying to save the world with acts like the Global Poverty Act and grind the spending machine in Washington to a halt instead of our economy. Let American small business do its thing and pull us out of this mess.
Last edited on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:19 pm by DavidB
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:34 pm |
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Of the two candidates, Obama's said the most about the issue, but even he isn't saying much. At the bottom of the sixth page of his economic policy paper (.pdf), Obama calls for the creation of a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank. It would "expand and enhance, not supplant, existing federal transportation investments." On the face of it, that means a new chunk of money would be allocated for infrastructure projects as opposed to simply shifting cash from other projects. Obama wants to deposit $60 billion into the bank over five years. That's far short of the $225 billion a bipartisan transportation policy commission recommends spending each year for the next 50 years, but it's a start. If Obama's numbers are to be trusted, the bank would create two million jobs and generate $35 billion in economic activity each year.
During the Depression, President Roosevelt poured $11.4 billion (about $175 billion in 2008 dollars, by our estimate) into the Works Progress Administration. The agency spent nearly $4 billion on highway and road projects and more than $2 billion on public buildings and utilities. All told, the WPA put 8.5 million people to work between 1935 and 1943. Together those people built 651,087 miles of roadway, built or improved 124,031 bridges, erected 125,110 public buildings and laid 853 airport runways. Not bad at a time when the unemployment approached 25 percent.
Beyond providing jobs -- analysts say every $1 billion spent on transportation projects creates 35,000 jobs -- a modern-day WPA would produce lasting benefits. "China is spending 9 percent of its GDP on infrastructure, and we're spending something like one or two percent," says Allen D. Biehler, Pennsylvania's transportation secretary. "A sustained investment would not only create jobs that have a strong multiplier effect on the larger economy, but would prevent us from falling behind other nations."
A country that's gridlocked, crumbling, and collapsing isn't going to serve us well. One is every 4 bridges in this Country are either in need of repair or obsolete.Spend the money now, enjoy the benefits later. from Dave Demerjian's article.
You asked where did they get the money for the WPA? Probably just printed it.
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:20 pm |
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Twelve Reasons Why Privatizing Social Security is a Bad Idea
Greg Anrig, Bernard Wasow, The Century Foundation, 12/14/2004
Addressing Social Security’s potential long-term financing challenges by taking the dramatic step of diverting its payroll taxes to create new personal accounts will have drastic consequences for federal finances, future retirees, and those who rely on the system the most. Learn more about twelve major reasons why less costly and less painful reforms should be considered instead.
Click on the links below to jump to different parts of the document or download in PDF format here.
amounting to between $2 trillion and $3 trillion over the coming decades.
If you had agreed to have your Social Security account on Wall Street this past year, you would be collecting half of what you now receive.....if anything. Sorry, but too risky for me in my old age. Had I been young and offered that option at that time, I too would have probably taken it, as I was a big risk taker in my younger days. Only when the time of retirement arrived, I probably would have resented my foolish choice, based on what just happened on Wall Street.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:16 pm |
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| not willing to get into particulars here, but suffice to say that the numbers you threw out aren't applicable to my family's numbers.
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qclars
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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Bambi wrote:
Have you read his plan? Have you read history when jobs were created after the Great Depression, by government building roads and Dams for energy and bridges and other necessary endeavors to improve our lives? Do you remember how many bridges are defective in America? Do you remember the collapse of the bridge in the midwest a couple of years ago, that killed many Americans? The Country's infrastructure is in dire need of repair/replacement and upgrading. Where do you think we will get the money to upgrade our Country's infrastructure? Where do you think we get money to keep our economy going and provide for the general welfare of it's people? Taxation was put in place to pay for these things, and we the people provide those funds. Like it or not, taxation is here to stay, unless you have another idea.. How do you propose to rebuild this country and it's infrastructure without taxation by using the progressive plan? What's your proposal?
OK Bambi, I remember---I was there. Where did the money come from to fund the WPA and the CCC during the depression. Higher taxes? On whom. No one had any money in those days. Who did they tax? Bambi wrote:
Did you read where Obama is going to induce people to start small business's thru small business loans with favorable interest rates and no capital gains for it's first two years? I'd like to see any business that can built and sold within two years. Most new businesses take several years to mature. Mine took about eight years. And then, where is the incentive if I decided not to sell? I've been thru programs like that in the years past and it is an incentive not a penalty to do so. I've been in the middle of it, as I saw young people start up business's that grew to huge porportions, then called me to sell them as they had made enough to retire. Within two years? Your talking about the free enterprise system at its best. High taxes will trump these incentives. Those small business's created a ton of jobs and wealth. They paid their taxes and still have more than enough to live on. Again, that's the American way. I don't think that's what Obama has in mind.
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:13 pm |
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Jeff. If you make over $66k to $112k, you will receive a tax cut according to the chart, from McCain or Obama of around $1000.
Now, remember, thats an average and based on no personal deductions you may choose to use.
I would venture to say that if you have 3 children and you have a mortgage deduction, and auto, and childcare and medical, college, entertainment of clients, and so on, you might be able to pay nothing. Deductions are the key to what you pay, and the key to this progressive tax code, which is that the rich pay more, and will end up paying even more of more, but still have much more to still live on.
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:05 pm |
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qclars wrote: Bambi wrote:
Barry (Obama's nickname which most call him) is going to rebuild this country.
How? You don't rebuild the country with more entitlements. You don't rebuild the country by disincentivizing entrepeneurs. You don't rebuild the country by penalizing those small businesses that create jobs. And, like it or not, you don't rebuild the country with tax increases on anyone.
Have you read his plan? Have you read history when jobs were created after the Great Depression, by government building roads and Dams for energy and bridges and other necessary endeavors to improve our lives? Do you remember how many bridges are defective in America? Do you remember the collapse of the bridge in the midwest a couple of years ago, that killed many Americans? The Country's infrastructure is in dire need of repair/replacement and upgrading. Where do you think we will get the money to upgrade our Country's infrastructure? Where do you think we get money to keep our economy going and provide for the general welfare of it's people? Taxation was put in place to pay for these things, and we the people provide those funds. Like it or not, taxation is here to stay, unless you have another idea.. How do you propose to rebuild this country and it's infrastructure without taxation by using the progressive plan? What's your proposal?
Did you read where Obama is going to induce people to start small business's thru small business loans with favorable interest rates and no capital gains for it's first two years? I've been thru programs like that in the years past and it is an incentive not a penalty to do so. I've been in the middle of it, as I saw young people start up business's that grew to huge porportions, then called me to sell them as they had made enough to retire. Those small business's created a ton of jobs and wealth. They paid their taxes and still have more than enough to live on.
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qclars
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 04:58 pm |
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TheBigShow wrote: Ok so the choice you have is:
A. Vote for a president who gives the money to the rich and hopes the rich will spend it on things that will help you.
B. Vote for a president who gives you the money.
There ya go, now go vote!
Ain't it a shame that all of the people who never produce anything except illegitimate children will be cheering for the B option. In fact, they may even find a way to vote for that option, thanks to ACORN.
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qclars
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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Bambi wrote: DavidB wrote: Bambi wrote: So, we don't want our Social Secuity funds placed in a high risk situation....and that would happen if you privatize S.S. Older people need to live with the feeling of security and wellbeing....another factor in America providing for the general welfare of it's people.
Are you freaking serious Bambi??? The reason Social Security is in shambles now is because the government ran it. The real risk is putting your retirement money in the hands of the government. Look what they've done with it. They bankrupted it by stealing the money and now you want me to refill the coffers for you so they can do it again. It's lunacy.
News flash... if it were privatized then YOU could make a personal decision regarding what risk/reward level you are comfortable with, not Obama who's only accomplishment in his first 2 years of public service was to earmark almost a trillion dollars to be gifted to other countries. The argument you just made is FOR privatization, not against it. You just don't understand that.
Then help me with understanding it David. How will I feel more secure by privatizing S.S. and how does my argument favor it?
Bambi:
I am retired from the business community that built America and I now collect Social Security. If I had been given the option to invest 10% of my Social Security withholding from the time I started working until the time I retired, I'll bet the 10% that went into CONSERVATIVE INVESTMENTS (as required by the Republican proposal) would be equal to or greater than what's in my current Social Security "pot." I'm just mad that I never had that opportunity.
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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Ok so the choice you have is:
A. Vote for a president who gives the money to the rich and hopes the rich will spend it on things that will help you.
B. Vote for a president who gives you the money.
There ya go, now go vote!
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qclars
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 04:50 pm |
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Bambi wrote:
Barry (Obama's nickname which most call him) is going to rebuild this country.
How? You don't rebuild the country with more entitlements. You don't rebuild the country by disincentivizing entrepeneurs. You don't rebuild the country by penalizing those small businesses that create jobs. And, like it or not, you don't rebuild the country with tax increases on anyone.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 04:49 pm |
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Bambi - it was the chart YOU posted. remember this one ?
Bambi wrote: Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 12:47 pm (here is a link to the string with your post... http://www.newszapforums.com/reply.php?topic_id=69605&post_id=389666"e=1
Clu: Look at the examples I provided.
MCCAIN
OBAMA
Income
Avg. tax bill
Avg. tax bill
Over $2.9M
-$269,364
+$701,885
$603K and up
-$45,361
+$115,974
$227K-$603K
-$7,871
+$12
$161K-$227K
-$4,380
-$2,789
$112K-$161K
-$2,614
-$2,204
$66K-$112K
-$1,009
-$1,290
$38K-$66K
-$319
-$1,042
$19K-$38K
-$113
-$892
Under $19K
-$19
-$567
Source:The Tax Policy Center
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 04:35 pm |
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DavidB wrote: Bambi wrote: So, we don't want our Social Secuity funds placed in a high risk situation....and that would happen if you privatize S.S. Older people need to live with the feeling of security and wellbeing....another factor in America providing for the general welfare of it's people.
Are you freaking serious Bambi??? The reason Social Security is in shambles now is because the government ran it. The real risk is putting your retirement money in the hands of the government. Look what they've done with it. They bankrupted it by stealing the money and now you want me to refill the coffers for you so they can do it again. It's lunacy.
News flash... if it were privatized then YOU could make a personal decision regarding what risk/reward level you are comfortable with, not Obama who's only accomplishment in his first 2 years of public service was to earmark almost a trillion dollars to be gifted to other countries. The argument you just made is FOR privatization, not against it. You just don't understand that.
Then help me with understanding it David. How will I feel more secure by privatizing S.S. and how does my argument favor it?
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DavidB
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 04:22 pm |
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Bambi wrote: So, we don't want our Social Secuity funds placed in a high risk situation....and that would happen if you privatize S.S. Older people need to live with the feeling of security and wellbeing....another factor in America providing for the general welfare of it's people.
Are you freaking serious Bambi??? The reason Social Security is in shambles now is because the government ran it. The real risk is putting your retirement money in the hands of the government. Look what they've done with it. They bankrupted it by stealing the money and now you want me to refill the coffers for you so they can do it again. It's lunacy.
News flash... if it were privatized then YOU could make a personal decision regarding what risk/reward level you are comfortable with, not Obama who's only accomplishment in his first 2 years of public service was to earmark almost a trillion dollars to be gifted to other countries. The argument you just made is FOR privatization, not against it. You just don't understand that.
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Bambi
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 03:55 pm |
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I don't know what charts you are using or what formula you are using to come up with your figures, but several people met last night and we used the information, along with the allowable deductions, and none of these people (not entrepeneurs) who make under $200k (scale used for singles) or the $250k (scale used for marrieds) will have a tax increase. Each person has their own formula/deductions. Remember, this is still the progressive type of tax code we are all still using in America....which states the more you make the more you pay, and has different baselines to figure from depending on your marital status....that's why the different figures of $200 and $250k. Didn't you read that when you read his plan?
Barry (Obama's nickname which most call him) is going to rebuild this country. That will create jobs, which will benefit entrepeneurs as the guy with the job uses that money to buy their goods, which will benefit the manufacturer as those consumers start buying the retail stores product, which will benefit the rich. This idea of bailing out from the Top and expect it to trickle down is not working. We must create the job and trickle or move upwards. Presently there is no upward mobility as the $700 billion is being given to Wall Street Power Brokers again, looking for sizable gifts to sustain their own lifestyles.
Start with Jobs and work up. Put that money on main street. The small entrepeneur will have excellent business loans supplied by Govt. to get them going....absent of any capital gains tax for the first 2 years. Moratorium of foreclosures, so they can figure how to get the housing money circulating down to mainstreet. Yesterday, a short sale went thru in STHeights, because the Lender was willing to take $15k less if the buyer brought in cash. They did, so now the "baseline" on that market value for that particular home that used to sell for $450k in 2005, is now valued at $190k. So, as long as that type of mentality is going to be used by the banks and lenders that are receiving this bailout money, our values will continue to bottom out. There must be a line drawn sooner or later, or we will be down to buying a home for $10,000. just to get it off the lenders books. And the guy next door who paid $400k will have to wait a very long time before he has any equity in his home. If you are upside down, don't expect to apply for another loan as you won't qualify.
We need a problem solver with a good working brain that is looking for fairness to all by starting on Main Street, and not Wall Street. Jobs.
And one more thing. Seniors and risk. When I was young, I didn't understand why older people always wanted to pay off their mortgages. Pay off their car loans. Live in a "risk" free environment. Why? Well, one has to get older to understand and "relate" to that feeling. That would be my status today. I want to be debt free as risk produces fear in those of us who are in that age category. We treasure our funds based on a low risk factor. That allows us to sleep better at night. The questions always looming over us, is what will happen to us if we lose our money? Who will help take care of us? We can't work anymore. So, we don't want our Social Secuity funds placed in a high risk situation....and that would happen if you privatize S.S. Older people need to live with the feeling of security and wellbeing....another factor in America providing for the general welfare of it's people.
Last edited on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 03:57 pm by Bambi
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 09:35 am |
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is it $250k or is it $200k or is it $150k ? and whichever it is... i PERSONALLY have heard Obama and Biden throw out competing/different numbers.
even with good intentions, with the amount of NEW/Increased spending we would see under the Trifecta of Liberalism / Wealth Redistribution (Presidency, Congress, Judiciary) there simply isn't a way to pay for it all unless the definition of "rich" continues to go down.
also, don't mind if i complain that (using that recent Bambi chart) my own family would pay xx00.00 more under Obama than Clinton. that's four figures -to me a sizable and substantial amount ! and i ain't rich. and that is only in year 1 of an Obama presidency... the number would be greater in later years based on the fact that the Child deduction would ramp up for my family in later years under a McCain presidency (making the delta even higher)
finally, maybe the question ought not be "who on this forum makes $250k ?" (especially since i don't and yet would be responsible for four figures more under Obama than McCain)... perhaps it should be "who on this forum owes their job to a small business person ?" or "who on this forum would be adversely affected by a stifling of the American spirit of aspiration, by the de-incentivizing of hard work/risk taking that has been the hallmark of the American Dream ?"
all this reminds me of an old Howard Jones tune...
Doctor says youre cured but you still feel the pain
Aspirations in the clouds but your hopes go down the drain
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DavidB
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 09:32 am |
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TheBigShow wrote: Poor little rich person. Ok, who on this forum makes 250k? If the answer is no, quit yer bitchen, it's a non issue for you. If you're so worried about rich people, go give them your money. You've been doing it for 8 years so you're used to it.
You need to do your homework, bud.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/23724.html
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TheBigShow
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 08:24 am |
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Poor little rich person. Ok, who on this forum makes 250k? If the answer is no, quit yer bitchen, it's a non issue for you. If you're so worried about rich people, go give them your money. You've been doing it for 8 years so you're used to it.
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DavidB
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 03:38 am |
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| Bravo Mr. Miller. This spells it out pretty clearly. Unfortunately, the 'give me something' people who are voting for him could give a d**n about American business. Sad times for America.
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Joe_the_Plumber
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 01:01 am |
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An American businessman's letter to Obama
October 25, 2008
Mr. Obama,
Given the uproar about the simple question asked you by Joe the plumber, and the persecution that has been heaped on him because he dared to question you, I find myself motivated to say a few things to you myself. While Joe aspires to start a business someday, I already have started not one, but 4 businesses. But first, let me introduce myself. You can call me 'Cory the well driller'. I am a 54 year old high school graduate. I didn't go to college like you, I was too ready to go 'conquer the world' when I finished high school. 25 years ago at age 29, I started my own water well drilling business at a time when the economy here in East Texas was in a tailspin from the crash of the early 80's oil boom. I didn't get any help from the government, nor did I look for any. I borrowed what I could from my sister, my uncle, and even the pawn shop and managed to scrape together a homemade drill rig and a few tools to do my first job. My businesses did not start as a result of privilege. They are the result of my personal drive, personal ambition, self discipline, self reliance, and a determination to treat my customers fairly. From the very start my business provided one other (than myself) East Texan a full time job. I couldn't afford a backhoe the first few years (something every well drilling business had), so I and my helper had to dig the mud pits that are necessary for each and every job with hand shovels. I had to use my 10 year old, 1/2 ton pickup truck for my water tank truck (normally a job for at least a 2 ton truck).
A year and a half after I started the business, I scraped together a 20% down payment to get a modest bank loan and bought a (28 year) old, worn out, slightly bigger drilling rig to allow me to drill the deeper water wells in my area. I spent the next few years drilling wells with the rig while simultaneously rebuilding it between jobs. Through these years I never knew from one month to the next if I would have any work or be able to pay the bills. I got behind on my income taxes one year, and spent the next two years paying that back (with penalty and interest) while keeping up with ongoing taxes. I got behind on my water well supply bill 2 different years (way behind the second time... $80,000.00), and spent over a year paying it back (each time) while continuing to pay for ongoing supplies C.O.D.. Of course, the personal stress endured through these experiences and years is hard to measure. I do have a stent in my heart now to memorialize it all.
I spent the next 10 years developing the reputation for being the most competent and most honest water well driller in East Texas. 2 years along the way, I hired another full time employee for the drilling business so that we could provide full time water well pump service as well as the well drilling. Also, 3 years along the path, I bought a water well screen service machine from a friend, starting business # 2. 5 years later I made a business loan for $100,000.00 to build a new, higher production, computer controlled screen service machine. I had designed the machine myself, and it didn't work out for 3 years so I had to make the loan payments without the benefit of any added income from the new machine. No government program was there to help me with the payments, or to help me sleep at night as I lay awake wondering how I would solve my machine problems or pay my bills. Finally, after 3 years, I got the screen machine working properly, and that provided another full time job for an East Texan in the screen service business.
2 years after that, I made another business loan, this time for $250,000.00, to buy another used drilling rig and all the support equipment needed to run another, larger, drill rig. This provided another 2 full time jobs for East Texans. Again, I spent a couple of years not knowing if I had made a smart move, or a move that would bankrupt me. For the third time in 13 years, I had placed everything I owned on the line, risking everything, in order to build a business.
A couple of years into this, I came up with a bright idea for a new kind of mud pump, a fundamentally necessary pump used on water well drill rigs. I spent my entire life savings to date (just $30,000.00), building a prototype of the pump and took it to the national water well convention to show it off. Customers immediately started coming out of the woodworks to buy the pumps, but there was a problem. I had depleted my assets making the prototype, and nobody would make me a business loan to start production of the new pumps. With several deposits for pump orders in hand, and nowhere to go, I finally started applying for as many credit card as I could find and took cash withdrawals on these cards to the tune of over $150,000.00 (including modest loans from my dear sister and brother), to get this 3rd business going.
Yes, once again, I had everything hanging over the line in an effort to start another business. I had never manufactured anything, and I had to design and bring into production a complex hydraulic machine from an untested prototype to a reliable production model (in six months). How many nights I lay awake wondering if I had just made the paramount mistake of my life I cannot tell you, but there were plenty. I managed to get the pumps into production, which immediately created another 2 full time jobs in East Texas. Some of the models in the first year suffered from quality issues due to the poor workmanship of one of my key suppliers, so I and an employee (another East Texan employed) had to drive across the country to repair customers' pumps, practically from coast to coast. I stood behind the product, and made payments to all the credit cards that had financed me (and my brother and sister). I spent the next 5 years improving and refining the product, building a reputation for the pump and the company, working to get the pump into drill rig manufacturers' product lines, and paying back credit cards. During all this time I continued to manage a growing water well business that was now operating 3 drill rig crews, and 2 well service crews. Also, the screen service business continued to grow. No government programs were there to help me, Mr. Obama, but that's ok, I didn't expect any, nor did I want any. I was too busy fighting to make success happen to sit around waiting for the government to help me.
Now, we have been manufacturing the mud pumps for 7 years, my combined businesses employ 32 full time employees, and distribute $5,000,000.00 annually through the local economy. Now, just 4 months ago I borrowed $1,254,000.00, purchasing computer controlled machining equipment to start my 4th business, a production machine shop. The machine shop will serve the mud pump company so that we can better manufacture our pumps that are being shipped worldwide. Of course, the machine shop will also do work for outside companies as well. This has already produced 2 more full time jobs, and 2 more should develop out of it in the next few months. This should work out, but if it doesn't it will be because you, and the other professional politicians like yourself, will have destroyed our countrys' (and the world) economy with your meddling with mortgage loan programs through your liberal manipulation and intimidation of loaning institutions to make sure that unqualified borrowers could get mortgages. You see, at the very time when I couldn't get a business loan to get my mud pumps into production, you were working with Acorn and the Community Reinvestment Act programs to make sure that unqualified borrowers could buy homes with no down payment, and even no credit or worse yet, bad credit. Even the infamous, liberal, Ninja loans (No Income, No Job or Assets). While these unqualified borrowers were enjoying unrealistically low interest rates, I was paying 22% to 24% interest on the credit cards that I had used to provide me the funds for the mud pump business that has created jobs for more East Texans. It's funny, because after 25 years of turning almost every dime of extra money back into my businesses to grow them, it has been only in the last two years that I have finally made enough money to be able to put a little away for retirement, and now the value of that has dropped 40% because of the policies you and your ilk have perpetrated on our country.
You see, Mr. Obama, I'm the guy you intend to raise taxes on. I'm the guy who has spent 25 years toiling and sweating, fretting and fighting, stressing and risking, to build a business and get ahead. I'm the guy who has been on the very edge of bankruptcy more than a dozen times over the last 25 years, and all the while creating more and more jobs for East Texans who didn't want to take a risk, and would not demand from themselves what I have demanded from myself. I'm the guy you characterize as 'the Americans who can afford it the most' that you believe should be taxed more to provide income redistribution 'to spread the wealth' to those who have never toiled, sweated, fretted, fought, stressed, or risked anything. You want to characterize me as someone who has enjoyed a life of privilege and who needs to pay a higher percentage of my income than those who have bought into your entitlement culture. I resent you, Mr. Obama, as I resent all who want to use class warfare as a tool to advance their political career. What's worse, each year more Americans buy into your liberal entitlement culture, and turn to the government for their hope of a better life instead of themselves. Liberals are succeeding through more than 40 years of collaborative effort between the predominant liberal media, and liberal indoctrination programs in the public school systems across our land.
What is so terribly sad about this is this. America was made great by people who embraced the one-time American culture of self reliance, self motivation, self determination, self discipline, personal betterment, hard work, risk taking. A culture built around the concept that success was in reach of every able bodied American who would strive for it. Each year that less Americans embrace that culture, we all descend together. We descend down the socialist path that has brought country after country ultimately to bitter and unremarkable states. If you and your liberal comrades in the media and school systems would spend half as much effort cultivating a culture of can-do across America as you do cultivating your entitlement culture, we could see Americans at large embracing the conviction that they can elevate themselves through personal betterment, personal achievement, and self reliance. You see, when people embrace such ideals, they act on them. When people act on such ideals, they succeed. All of America could find herself elevating instead of deteriorating. But that would eliminate the need for liberal politicians, wouldn't it, Mr. Obama? The country would not need you if the country was convinced that problem solving was best left with individuals instead of the government. You and all your liberal comrades have got a vested interested in creating a dependent class in our country. It is the very business of liberals to create an ever expanding dependence on government. What's remarkable is that you, who have never produced a job in your life, are going to tax me to take more of my money and give it to people who wouldn't need my money if they would get off their entitlement mentality asses and apply themselves at work, demand more from themselves, and quit looking to liberal politicians to raise their station in life.
You see, I know because I've had them work for me before. Hundreds of them over these 25 years. People who simply will not show up to work on time. People who just will not work 5 days in a week, much less, 6 days. People always looking for a way to put less effort out. People who actually tell me that they would do more if I just would first pay them more. People who take off work to sit in government offices to apply to get free government handouts (gee, I wonder how things would have turned out for them if they had spent that time earning money and pleasing their employer?). You see, all of this comes from your entitlement mentality culture.
Oh, I know you will say I am uncompassionate. Sorry, Mr. Obama, wrong again. You see, I've seen what the average percentage of your income has been given to charities over the years of 2000 to 2004 (ignoring the years you started running for office - can you pronounce 'politically motivated'), you averaged less than 1% annually. And your running mate, Joe Biden, averaged less than ?% of his annual income in charitable contributions over the last 10 years. Like so many liberals, the two of you want to give to the needy, just as long as it is someone else's money you are giving to them. I won't say what I have given to charities over the last 25 years, but the percentage is several times more than you and Joe Biden. combined (don't you just hate google?). Tell me again how you feel my pain.
In short, Mr. Obama, your political philosophies represent everything that is wrong with our country. You represent the culture of government dependence instead of self reliance; Entitlement mentality instead of personal achievement; Penalization of the successful to reward the unmotivated; Political correctness instead of open mindedness and open debate. If you are successful, you may preside over the final transformation of America from being the greatest and most self-reliant culture on earth, to just another country of whiners and wimps, who sit around looking to the government to solve their problems. Like all of western Europe. All countries on the decline. All countries that, because of liberal socialistic mentalities, have a little less to offer mankind every year.
God help us...
Cory Miller
just a ordinary, extraordinary American, the way a lot of Americans used to be.
P.S. Yes, Mr. Obama, I am a real American... http://www.cmillerdrilling.com
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