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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sat Jul 18th, 2009 07:28 pm |
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halos02 wrote: The Town of Gilbert is contributing over a million dollars to help the post move and they have changed the name of the park to Veterans Park and have changed the ordinance to allow drinking in the park.
You sure about that? They were in the paper recently and people were very mad at them for sending 600,000 dollars to charity and then today there was another story about them cutting 300,000 dollars out of the library http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2009/07/17/20090717gr-librarycuts0718.html
And at the same time the violent crime went up 44% in Gilbert. http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2009/07/17/20090717gr-crime0718.html
I think if they really did give 1 million to a members only private social club we know where they came up the money. Took it from Library and should have spent more on police. They are nuts if they did what you say.
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halos02
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Posted: Sat Jul 18th, 2009 07:10 pm |
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kingjames wrote: I have read several of your reply and it seem to me you have nothing better to do then talk through your hat. The Gilbert legion is own by them and you have to be a vet to get in unless you are a guest. NO drinks are permitted out side of the building.
Are you one of those that couldn't make it into the military there fore maybe the bias you claim others are making you should look in the mirror
That’s not exactly true, the son of a veteran that himself is not a veteran, a spouse and a daughter may also get in. The Town of Gilbert is contributing over a million dollars to help the post move and they have changed the name of the park to Veterans Park and have changed the ordinance to allow drinking in the park.
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kingjames
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Posted: Sat Jul 18th, 2009 06:01 pm |
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I have read several of your reply and it seem to me you have nothing better to do then talk through your hat. The Gilbert legion is own by them and you have to be a vet to get in unless you are a guest. NO drinks are permitted out side of the building.
Are you one of those that couldn't make it into the military there fore maybe the bias you claim others are making you should look in the mirror
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halos02
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Posted: Fri Jun 26th, 2009 06:49 pm |
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2 cents wrote: halos02 wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: halos02 wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: I'm open to listen on this one. How will the Legion save tax dollars? Will they sign a contract to maintain the park or something?
That will be between the Legion and the Town.
The only way I see this working is if there are written agreements that allow the town to terminate the Legion's lease if they don't deliver on the volunteer work they are obviously dangling as a carrot. This could be a win-win agreement if the Legion is serious about stepping up and committing to specific actions in exchange for the lease.
I would agree, I would expect that as a Council Member as well. When I started the Post in 2005 I did so to serve my community as I served my Country. I would like to see agreements in place and grants applied for before any leases were signed. I would also like to put some time restrictions on as well. I think if they haven’t started the building by the time the Town starts the rest of the Park the land should go back to the Town as well.
Interesting choice of a word.
I am only a member of the Post, I am not the Commander. I haven't been the Commander for now going on three years. I started working on a building site when I started the legion. Thats another point I have been trying to make.
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2 cents
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Posted: Fri Jun 26th, 2009 03:36 pm |
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halos02 wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: halos02 wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: I'm open to listen on this one. How will the Legion save tax dollars? Will they sign a contract to maintain the park or something?
That will be between the Legion and the Town.
The only way I see this working is if there are written agreements that allow the town to terminate the Legion's lease if they don't deliver on the volunteer work they are obviously dangling as a carrot. This could be a win-win agreement if the Legion is serious about stepping up and committing to specific actions in exchange for the lease.
I would agree, I would expect that as a Council Member as well. When I started the Post in 2005 I did so to serve my community as I served my Country. I would like to see agreements in place and grants applied for before any leases were signed. I would also like to put some time restrictions on as well. I think if they haven’t started the building by the time the Town starts the rest of the Park the land should go back to the Town as well.
Interesting choice of a word.
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halos02
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Posted: Thu Jun 25th, 2009 05:13 am |
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CrimeFighter wrote: halos02 wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: I'm open to listen on this one. How will the Legion save tax dollars? Will they sign a contract to maintain the park or something?
That will be between the Legion and the Town.
The only way I see this working is if there are written agreements that allow the town to terminate the Legion's lease if they don't deliver on the volunteer work they are obviously dangling as a carrot. This could be a win-win agreement if the Legion is serious about stepping up and committing to specific actions in exchange for the lease.
I would agree, I would expect that as a Council Member as well. When I started the Post in 2005 I did so to serve my community as I served my Country. I would like to see agreements in place and grants applied for before any leases were signed. I would also like to put some time restrictions on as well. I think if they haven’t started the building by the time the Town starts the rest of the Park the land should go back to the Town as well.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Thu Jun 25th, 2009 04:15 am |
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halos02 wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: I'm open to listen on this one. How will the Legion save tax dollars? Will they sign a contract to maintain the park or something?
That will be between the Legion and the Town.
The only way I see this working is if there are written agreements that allow the town to terminate the Legion's lease if they don't deliver on the volunteer work they are obviously dangling as a carrot. This could be a win-win agreement if the Legion is serious about stepping up and committing to specific actions in exchange for the lease.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 06:49 am |
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orchardranchres wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: I'm open to listen on this one. How will the Legion save tax dollars? Will they sign a contract to maintain the park or something?
Now is when he gives you his telephone number and maybe a secret password and he'll tell you the plan. Since when is Mr. Barnes elected to push the Legion down our throats? I voted for him (again, my mistake) to represent me and all of us residents, not the Legion.
I have read each of his posts carefully and I see a pattern of promises that can't be backed up with contracts. The Legion is desperate to get our taxpayer land for free and is promising to try to get grants. I doubt they would ever materialize and I personally want the park to not be a private social club with drinking and smoking.
How is asking you to listen with an open mind shoving it down your throat? Can you tell me what the pattern are, because I can’t think of anything I have said that I haven’t backed up. What if the land was contingent upon getting agreements to have the work done?
I’m not sure what drinking and smoking have to do with anything? Drinking is aloud at Horseshoe Park and smoking is allowed and done everywhere. We can meet at the library at a set time in one of the study rooms and you can bring friends. The most that can be in a room is 8.
Last edited on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 05:14 am by halos02
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halos02
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 06:34 am |
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CrimeFighter wrote: I'm open to listen on this one. How will the Legion save tax dollars? Will they sign a contract to maintain the park or something?
That will be between the Legion and the Town.
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 05:23 am |
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CrimeFighter wrote: I'm open to listen on this one. How will the Legion save tax dollars? Will they sign a contract to maintain the park or something?
Now is when he gives you his telephone number and maybe a secret password and he'll tell you the plan. Since when is Mr. Barnes elected to push the Legion down our throats? I voted for him (again, my mistake) to represent me and all of us residents, not the Legion.
I have read each of his posts carefully and I see a pattern of promises that can't be backed up with contracts. The Legion is desperate to get our taxpayer land for free and is promising to try to get grants. I doubt they would ever materialize and I personally want the park to not be a private social club with drinking and smoking.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 02:40 am |
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| I'm open to listen on this one. How will the Legion save tax dollars? Will they sign a contract to maintain the park or something? Last edited on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 03:53 am by CrimeFighter
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halos02
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 02:59 pm |
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2 cents wrote: If, in fact, your proposal benefits the community rather than burdens it then it is perhaps a good thing. That is a decision that the decision makers will have to make and during that process the community as a whole will have their opportunity to voice their thoughts, pro or con.
2
You are correct Sir; I am trying to let the community know the whole story. People tend to look at the cover before they look in the book. I am trying to do that whole transparency thing. I would like the citizens to know the whole story, not just the cliffnotes.
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2 cents
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 01:47 pm |
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If, in fact, your proposal benefits the community rather than burdens it then it is perhaps a good thing. That is a decision that the decision makers will have to make and during that process the community as a whole will have their opportunity to voice their thoughts, pro or con.
2
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halos02
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 07:53 am |
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I attached the drawing of West Park as designed by the town. The Legion would like the part of the park that is like a pan handle.
Attachment: West Park.pdf (Downloaded 3 times) Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 07:54 am by halos02
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 07:31 am |
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orchardranchres wrote: 2 cents wrote: Is this the same legion that has been going around begging for free land for the last 2 or 3 years?
Same crew. Check those links I posted, same names. And this is the reason Mr. Barnes ran for election. I've talked to a few different people who have told me quite a bit of history. Same crew, same tired attempt at free land.
Have you talked to anyone that knows anything about this?
I will make you a deal. You and crimefighter meet with me where ever you want, I will answer every question you ask. I will show you everything that I can get from the Legion and tell you how much tax money the Legion could save the community.
If you don't think its a good idea, I will not bring it up again. (I mean the West Park location for a Legion Home)
Let me know.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 07:20 am |
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Bambi2 wrote: My response as a neighbor is this: As concerned residents, why not ask the Legion to create and then attend that Legion meeting? Are they open to the public? If not, then I would have a meeting Craig, just for that purpose....educating the residents on what you do; who you are; and your intents and contributions to the Town. It's the "unknown" factor that is possibly stalling this and creating scenarios in people's minds that may not be reality.
Many people think of Legions as "watering holes" like Gilbert's Legion. I've spent alot of time at that post in the 70's and 80's, as a guest of Mike Nielson, Floyd Nichols and other friends. A lot of my land deals were discussed in the facility; including horse racing (Floyd ran them at Turf Paradise). Events like the 4th of July were shared with the GPC's, as were causes for children. The Post was looked at as a contributor to people's needs.
We just have to find a place for you guys.....one that is acceptable by your residents. The Park may or may not be the right location, but I'll look for other sites for your cause too. A grant is a good idea to explore. I hope the posters on here can become more aware of who you guys are and what you do thru first hand experience.
Do you still meet a Rudy's?
Good luck. It's tuff to cut deals in a downturn economy.
The post meetings are held on the second Saturday of each month at 10:00am at Rudy’s. I am trying to get an auto cad drawing of West Park so the post can have the enhancements included. After that the Legion would like to have an open house to go over what the Post would like to propose to the town, they would also like to give a presentation to the new parks committee. The Post doesn’t need the 8.7 acres; they would like it so they can help all the Eagle Scouts, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, and Crew in Queen Creek. Queen Creek says they are Unique, this is truly Unique has anyone ever seen a Legion Post that’s main focus isn’t the bar?
The Legion would take anything they can get; They would like the park location so they can have room to help the masses. They would use a small building with no land and only be a bar like so many. I would think the citizens would rather the Legion save them millions in taxes? It doesn’t sound like it.
Orchardranchers and Crimefighter would rather pay more in taxes than to loan a little to a non-profit.
If you were told if you give $250,000 and you will not have to pay 4 million of tax dollars and still get to claim the $250,000 wouldn’t you? What am I missing?
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halos02
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Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 11:50 pm |
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2 cents wrote: halos02 wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: NO TAXPAYERS HANDOUTS TO PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS! It really is that simple. The parks are paid for through new home permits so that the people who live in this town can enjoy the open space and amenities, not so that a private group, no matter how noble, can be gifted taxpayer assets. This is no different than asking the town to write your organization a check for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Land has value. Below market leases are handouts. I don't know why this is being debated again. The Queen Creek taxpayers have taken it in the shorts one time too many already.
So, if the Legions idea were to save the taxpayers 3 to 4 MILLION you would say no?
Can you elaborate?
Call me @ 602-469-1225 and I will go over the whole thing with you.
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2 cents
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Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 04:23 pm |
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halos02 wrote: CrimeFighter wrote: NO TAXPAYERS HANDOUTS TO PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS! It really is that simple. The parks are paid for through new home permits so that the people who live in this town can enjoy the open space and amenities, not so that a private group, no matter how noble, can be gifted taxpayer assets. This is no different than asking the town to write your organization a check for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Land has value. Below market leases are handouts. I don't know why this is being debated again. The Queen Creek taxpayers have taken it in the shorts one time too many already.
So, if the Legions idea were to save the taxpayers 3 to 4 MILLION you would say no?
Can you elaborate?
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Bambi2
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Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 04:17 pm |
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My response as a neighbor is this: As concerned residents, why not ask the Legion to create and then attend that Legion meeting? Are they open to the public? If not, then I would have a meeting Craig, just for that purpose....educating the residents on what you do; who you are; and your intents and contributions to the Town. It's the "unknown" factor that is possibly stalling this and creating scenarios in people's minds that may not be reality.
Many people think of Legions as "watering holes" like Gilbert's Legion. I've spent alot of time at that post in the 70's and 80's, as a guest of Mike Nielson, Floyd Nichols and other friends. A lot of my land deals were discussed in the facility; including horse racing (Floyd ran them at Turf Paradise). Events like the 4th of July were shared with the GPC's, as were causes for children. The Post was looked at as a contributor to people's needs.
We just have to find a place for you guys.....one that is acceptable by your residents. The Park may or may not be the right location, but I'll look for other sites for your cause too. A grant is a good idea to explore. I hope the posters on here can become more aware of who you guys are and what you do thru first hand experience.
Do you still meet a Rudy's?
Good luck. It's tuff to cut deals in a downturn economy.
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halos02
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Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 06:44 am |
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2 cents wrote: Is this the same legion that has been going around begging for free land for the last 2 or 3 years?
How many Legion Post do you think there are in QC?
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halos02
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Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 06:39 am |
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CrimeFighter wrote: NO TAXPAYERS HANDOUTS TO PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS! It really is that simple. The parks are paid for through new home permits so that the people who live in this town can enjoy the open space and amenities, not so that a private group, no matter how noble, can be gifted taxpayer assets. This is no different than asking the town to write your organization a check for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Land has value. Below market leases are handouts. I don't know why this is being debated again. The Queen Creek taxpayers have taken it in the shorts one time too many already.
So, if the Legions idea were to save the taxpayers 3 to 4 MILLION you would say no?
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2009 06:18 pm |
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2 cents wrote: Is this the same legion that has been going around begging for free land for the last 2 or 3 years?
Same crew. Check those links I posted, same names. And this is the reason Mr. Barnes ran for election. I've talked to a few different people who have told me quite a bit of history. Same crew, same tired attempt at free land.
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2 cents
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Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2009 12:50 am |
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| Is this the same legion that has been going around begging for free land for the last 2 or 3 years?
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Beer.Thirty.In.Queen.Creek
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Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2009 12:43 am |
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Hell, this is the best g'dang idear I heard yet. Another place us normal rebel rousers can get our drink on. Hope Orchardranch can make it, and you other fine ladies too. Come on down and let me show you how we party red neck style. You can be my little auxiliary lady. as long as yer good lookin.
Does anyone know if I got to have a membership card to get inside. LOL, I jes said the words to a song.
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QCVillager
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 06:18 am |
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halos02 wrote: orchardranchres wrote: The East Valley Tribune said the legion is wrong again, but trying their best to make it seem like a good thing. They just said this today.
No government handout for American Legion
An American Legion post in Queen Creek is again asking local taxpayers to essentially donate several acres in a planned town park for the location of the group's first headquarters. These honorable veterans have marshaled considerable support for their cause and have prepared a better collection of arguments to make their request sound reasonable and noble.
But a fundamental issue remains that prompted us to object to this proposal in January 2008 - publicly owned property should not be handed over on a long-term basis to a private organization that exists first and foremost to serve the needs of its own members.
As Tribune writer Amanda Keim reported Sunday, the growing Duane Ellsworth Post 129 has been looking since 2006 for someone to provide land at little or no cost for construction of a permanent building. At times, post members have appeared baffled that Queen Creek - or any community for that matter - would hesitate to provide such a subsidy.
But we previously noted on the pages a serious concern that American Legion buildings are privately operated with the right to bar the doors to nonmembers and uninvited guests.
Reflecting wisdom gained from its previous efforts, the American Legion post is now seeking a long-term lease, not a permanent transfer of ownership. Post leaders also are emphasizing the many charitable activities that members provide, and they argue the American Legion could do even more for the community with a real home.
However, past experience suggests American Legion veterans offer so much because they are good-natured people who sincerely wanted to help their neighbors and not because they expect payment in return.
It's likely that if Queen Creek taxpayers had known such charity came with future conditions attached, they would have expected to assert some control (through town officials) over the nature of the volunteer work that the post performed. We hope American Legion members would recognize the inherent dangers in transferring even a modicum of their post's current independence into government hands.
We remain convinced East Valley residents want to honor the American Legion and will voluntarily provide the private resources necessary, if the post properly focuses on that course instead of waiting for government to come to its rescue.
I can’t see that in the article all, I see assumptions and added opinions, comments with no names.
Craig, that was in our EV Trib this morning. On page A17 Opinion page.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 06:03 am |
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I really shouldn't have to get involved with the town for the obvious course of action to be pursued. Take out the "Request Denied" stamp and go after Barnes' request letter like a spider monkey after a banana.
Last edited on Thu Jun 18th, 2009 06:04 am by CrimeFighter
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GSBill
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 05:01 am |
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CrimeFighter wrote:
I don't need any more details. We don't need anyone else on the town teet. Deny the request with instructions that the Legion not raise the issue again.
Closed minded and short sighted. I'm no give away proponent but Barnes has some good ideas not all aligned with the legion. I guess you'll be reading about and passing remarks about progressing issues from the keyboard.
How can you work through an issue and pass judgment when you dont have all the facts. You have some and they take you to the point that closed your mind to any further info. Thats really too bad.
You can have just so much clout from the keyboard. YOU need to get out and take action. Those that do will make a difference. Those that dont will read about the difference and get to comment on it here.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 04:23 am |
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| I don't need any more details. We don't need anyone else on the town teet. Deny the request with instructions that the Legion not raise the issue again.
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GSBill
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 03:58 am |
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This is no different than asking the town to write your organization a check for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Queen Creek has done that for years. Nothing new.
Our taxes have supported our school district(among the highest taxes in AZ) which built a pool we cant use. Ran into a friend with 3 kids today. They just came back from Basha Pool. I know not town related...however QC residents have supported the QCPAC for years to the tune of 125k per year.
Barnes has some good ideas. Details need to get worked out. Its not 100% about just the legion. I again suggest getting all those details. Having ALL the info is the key to progress as issues are debated.
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CrimeFighter
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 03:15 am |
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| NO TAXPAYERS HANDOUTS TO PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS! It really is that simple. The parks are paid for through new home permits so that the people who live in this town can enjoy the open space and amenities, not so that a private group, no matter how noble, can be gifted taxpayer assets. This is no different than asking the town to write your organization a check for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Land has value. Below market leases are handouts. I don't know why this is being debated again. The Queen Creek taxpayers have taken it in the shorts one time too many already.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 01:02 am |
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orchardranchres wrote: The East Valley Tribune said the legion is wrong again, but trying their best to make it seem like a good thing. They just said this today.
No government handout for American Legion
An American Legion post in Queen Creek is again asking local taxpayers to essentially donate several acres in a planned town park for the location of the group's first headquarters. These honorable veterans have marshaled considerable support for their cause and have prepared a better collection of arguments to make their request sound reasonable and noble.
But a fundamental issue remains that prompted us to object to this proposal in January 2008 - publicly owned property should not be handed over on a long-term basis to a private organization that exists first and foremost to serve the needs of its own members.
As Tribune writer Amanda Keim reported Sunday, the growing Duane Ellsworth Post 129 has been looking since 2006 for someone to provide land at little or no cost for construction of a permanent building. At times, post members have appeared baffled that Queen Creek - or any community for that matter - would hesitate to provide such a subsidy.
But we previously noted on the pages a serious concern that American Legion buildings are privately operated with the right to bar the doors to nonmembers and uninvited guests.
Reflecting wisdom gained from its previous efforts, the American Legion post is now seeking a long-term lease, not a permanent transfer of ownership. Post leaders also are emphasizing the many charitable activities that members provide, and they argue the American Legion could do even more for the community with a real home.
However, past experience suggests American Legion veterans offer so much because they are good-natured people who sincerely wanted to help their neighbors and not because they expect payment in return.
It's likely that if Queen Creek taxpayers had known such charity came with future conditions attached, they would have expected to assert some control (through town officials) over the nature of the volunteer work that the post performed. We hope American Legion members would recognize the inherent dangers in transferring even a modicum of their post's current independence into government hands.
We remain convinced East Valley residents want to honor the American Legion and will voluntarily provide the private resources necessary, if the post properly focuses on that course instead of waiting for government to come to its rescue.
I can’t see that in the article all, I see assumptions and added opinions, comments with no names.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 12:45 am |
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Bambi2 wrote: I'm just stopping by, but I thought I'd ask this of you councilman Barnes.
Is any of your Town's land for sale? If so, I have potential buyers. If I were to bring that buyer to you for that land councilman, what position would you take with me and my buyer? It's not available? You probably should excude yourself from this as you are baised, being a Legion member, so your discussions and vote would reflect that bias. Now, speaking to you as your role of a councilman: "Wouldn't it be more profitable for the Town to sell that land rather than giving land away at this point in time?" Please answer as a councilman (representing all the residents), not as a private citizen(representing yourself). Can that 8 acres be purchased? Perhaps someone could purchase it from the town, then lease it back to the Legion or to?
Is the Legion Post in downtown Gilbert owned by them? On Gilbert Days, that Post is full to the brim of people wondering in and out....Legionaires and.non Legionaires, consuming alcohol in the Legion, then taking it outside. liability.
What safeguards can you guarantee, that this won't happen in QC's Park? The last thing you want is a drunk wondering around a Park with kids playing, looking for his car or keys. More liability?
Just wondering and trying to explore all the scenarios. My primary concern is the effect the alcohol consumed in the Legion will have on children playing in a Park.....from any town. Kids wander around and typically don't stay where they are supposed to stay. They explore.
Are there any other parcels available, not located in a Park, as what you want to do and build for the community is outstanding?
Bambi, Thanks for stopping by, it nice to see you.
I don’t know of any land for sale as of yet, I will check and find out. The town does have a 5000 sqft building (the old water Co) that is for lease. If you were to bring a buyer for that park land and what they wanted to do meet all the P&Z requirements, I would say “sold”.
I being a legion member has nothing to do with it at all, I won’t own the building, It will bring me no income. That’s like saying because you’re a builder you shouldn’t be on any committees.
As far as being more profitable for the town to sell it, I would say no. It would then be private property and you are taking any control out of the town’s hands, the town would no longer have the asset, the sewer and water would still be at the street.
You are right about Gilbert; keep in mind Gilbert is mainly a drinking post. Gilbert days were held in down town. West Park is nowhere near downtown, so I can’t see anything like that happening, I guess we could keep posting what ifs and they dids and this coulds.
What safeguards can you guarantee that this won't happen in QC's Park? The last thing you want is a drunk wondering around a Park with kids playing, looking for his car or keys .
The same safeguards that are in place to make sure it doesn’t happen at Serrano’s, Uncle Bears, Rudy’s, Queen Creek Café, and many other places in QC that are near daycare and schools. At West Park there are no playgrounds, it would be a half mile from the nearest baseball field.
We can explore scenarios all day long; at the end of the day ask yourself this, did any of the other post do as much for the community as Queen Creek Post has? If a child wonders a half mile from its parents would it be the Legions fault?
Horseshoe Park serves alcohol that is a town owned property; I think there would be far less liability with a Legion Post.
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 11:51 pm |
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The East Valley Tribune said the legion is wrong again, but trying their best to make it seem like a good thing. They just said this today.
No government handout for American Legion
[url=javascript:recommendReview('Article25140568')[/url]0
Tribune Editorial
June 16, 2009 - 2:49PM
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An American Legion post in Queen Creek is again asking local taxpayers to essentially donate several acres in a planned town park for the location of the group's first headquarters. These honorable veterans have marshaled considerable support for their cause and have prepared a better collection of arguments to make their request sound reasonable and noble.
But a fundamental issue remains that prompted us to object to this proposal in January 2008 - publicly owned property should not be handed over on a long-term basis to a private organization that exists first and foremost to serve the needs of its own members.
As Tribune writer Amanda Keim reported Sunday, the growing Duane Ellsworth Post 129 has been looking since 2006 for someone to provide land at little or no cost for construction of a permanent building. At times, post members have appeared baffled that Queen Creek - or any community for that matter - would hesitate to provide such a subsidy.
But we previously noted on the pages a serious concern that American Legion buildings are privately operated with the right to bar the doors to nonmembers and uninvited guests.
Reflecting wisdom gained from its previous efforts, the American Legion post is now seeking a long-term lease, not a permanent transfer of ownership. Post leaders also are emphasizing the many charitable activities that members provide, and they argue the American Legion could do even more for the community with a real home.
However, past experience suggests American Legion veterans offer so much because they are good-natured people who sincerely wanted to help their neighbors and not because they expect payment in return.
It's likely that if Queen Creek taxpayers had known such charity came with future conditions attached, they would have expected to assert some control (through town officials) over the nature of the volunteer work that the post performed. We hope American Legion members would recognize the inherent dangers in transferring even a modicum of their post's current independence into government hands.
We remain convinced East Valley residents want to honor the American Legion and will voluntarily provide the private resources necessary, if the post properly focuses on that course instead of waiting for government to come to its rescue.
Last edited on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 11:53 pm by orchardranchres
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 11:50 pm |
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halos02 wrote: luv2garden wrote: Halos 2 wrote:
There are alcoholic beverages served in a Legion Hall, the closest baseball, soccer and basketball court would be a quarter of a mile away, un like Rudy’s that shares a parking lot with the library, Serrano’s that is separated by a chain link fence let’s say 100 feet from the playground, Uncle Bears and Trophies that use the parking lot of Tutor Time, and so on and so on. There are thousands of legion posts in parks and town/city owned buildings across the country, the closest will be Gilbert.
Yes but does the town want the liability?
What would the liability be? Insurance liability Mr. Barnes. Put a permanent and ongoing bar where everyone can drink a bunch and find out what happens. Did a yahoo search today and see some interesting stories about legion drinking and lawsuits. It isn't the same as Serano or Uncle Bears since those places are renting from the town. They rent from some private owner.
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halos02
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 08:51 pm |
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luv2garden wrote: Halos 2 wrote:
There are alcoholic beverages served in a Legion Hall, the closest baseball, soccer and basketball court would be a quarter of a mile away, un like Rudy’s that shares a parking lot with the library, Serrano’s that is separated by a chain link fence let’s say 100 feet from the playground, Uncle Bears and Trophies that use the parking lot of Tutor Time, and so on and so on. There are thousands of legion posts in parks and town/city owned buildings across the country, the closest will be Gilbert.
Yes but does the town want the liability?
What would the liability be?
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 08:51 pm |
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luv2garden wrote: Halos 2 wrote:
There are alcoholic beverages served in a Legion Hall, the closest baseball, soccer and basketball court would be a quarter of a mile away, un like Rudy’s that shares a parking lot with the library, Serrano’s that is separated by a chain link fence let’s say 100 feet from the playground, Uncle Bears and Trophies that use the parking lot of Tutor Time, and so on and so on. There are thousands of legion posts in parks and town/city owned buildings across the country, the closest will be Gilbert.
Yes but does the town want the liability?
What would the liability be?
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 05:25 pm |
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orchardranchres wrote: Bambi2 wrote: I'm just stopping by, but I thought I'd ask this of you councilman Barnes.
Is any of your Town's land for sale? If so, I have potential buyers. If I were to bring that buyer to you for that land councilman, what position would you take with me and my buyer? It's not available? You probably should excude yourself from this as you are baised, being a Legion member, so your discussions and vote would reflect that bias. Now, speaking to you as your role of a councilman: "Wouldn't it be more profitable for the Town to sell that land rather than giving land away at this point in time?" Please answer as a councilman (representing all the residents), not as a private citizen(representing yourself). Can that 8 acres be purchased? Perhaps someone could purchase it from the town, then lease it back to the Legion or to?
Is the Legion Post in downtown Gilbert owned by them? On Gilbert Days, that Post is full to the brim of people wondering in and out....Legionaires and.non Legionaires, consuming alcohol in the Legion, then taking it outside. liability.
What safeguards can you guarantee, that this won't happen in QC's Park? The last thing you want is a drunk wondering around a Park with kids playing, looking for his car or keys. More liability?
Just wondering and trying to explore all the scenarios. My primary concern is the effect the alcohol consumed in the Legion will have on children playing in a Park.....from any town. Kids wander around and typically don't stay where they are supposed to stay. They explore.
Are there any other parcels available, not located in a Park, as what you want to do and build for the community is outstanding?
Gilbert gave the American Legion 7200 feet. Maybe they just lease it to them, but it is still just 7200 feet. Mr. Barnes wants 391,000 feet. This stuff couldn't be any funnier.
1st of all, this is supposed to be a nice park someday. It isn't that it doesnt have a perpose. 2nd of all, if it didnt have a purpose we could sell it like you say Bambi for a lot of money I bet. 3rd of all, if the legion has all this money or can get it, then they should just buy their own land. Who is paying for the building? I suppose they got money for that too. But when it comes to land they seem to just run out of money. hmmm
It will be a nice park someday, if it ever gets done. The legion can make it happen sooner. Why would you want to sell it, you said you didnt live in Queen Creek. The SAL has said they would build the building. They have builders that are members. The Legion isn’t changing that part of the park other than putting the building there, the Legion doesn’t have the money to buy the land. However, they can apply for grants that the Town cant.
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orchardranchres
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 04:57 pm |
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Bambi2 wrote: I'm just stopping by, but I thought I'd ask this of you councilman Barnes.
Is any of your Town's land for sale? If so, I have potential buyers. If I were to bring that buyer to you for that land councilman, what position would you take with me and my buyer? It's not available? You probably should excude yourself from this as you are baised, being a Legion member, so your discussions and vote would reflect that bias. Now, speaking to you as your role of a councilman: "Wouldn't it be more profitable for the Town to sell that land rather than giving land away at this point in time?" Please answer as a councilman (representing all the residents), not as a private citizen(representing yourself). Can that 8 acres be purchased? Perhaps someone could purchase it from the town, then lease it back to the Legion or to?
Is the Legion Post in downtown Gilbert owned by them? On Gilbert Days, that Post is full to the brim of people wondering in and out....Legionaires and.non Legionaires, consuming alcohol in the Legion, then taking it outside. liability.
What safeguards can you guarantee, that this won't happen in QC's Park? The last thing you want is a drunk wondering around a Park with kids playing, looking for his car or keys. More liability?
Just wondering and trying to explore all the scenarios. My primary concern is the effect the alcohol consumed in the Legion will have on children playing in a Park.....from any town. Kids wander around and typically don't stay where they are supposed to stay. They explore.
Are there any other parcels available, not located in a Park, as what you want to do and build for the community is outstanding?
Gilbert gave the American Legion 7200 feet. Maybe they just lease it to them, but it is still just 7200 feet. Mr. Barnes wants 391,000 feet. This stuff couldn't be any funnier.
1st of all, this is supposed to be a nice park someday. It isn't that it doesnt have a perpose. 2nd of all, if it didnt have a purpose we could sell it like you say Bambi for a lot of money I bet. 3rd of all, if the legion has all this money or can get it, then they should just buy their own land. Who is paying for the building? I suppose they got money for that too. But when it comes to land they seem to just run out of money. hmmm
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GSBill
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 03:28 pm |
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starleen wrote:
GSBill wrote: Barnes mentioned something thats really good about Queen Creek. You can always get a face to face meeting with nearly anybody you want to talk to..from the mayor to our council members to our town manager and everybody in between. I hope we never lose that aspect of our local government. Anybody posting can easily get a face to face. Works way better than quoting the news when debating issues. I suggest taking advantage of offers to meet and discuss issues.
I made the face to face at the voting booth (when I lived in TOQC last year). I intend for the elected persons to go and do the majority will, so I don't NEED to waste my time and their's with face to face diatribe that isn't a part of the record and will likely lead nowhere. That's part of what a representative government does. You think the council wants 10,000 town people clamoring at the gates for a "face to face?" We've all got better ways to spend time.
Like posting endless judgments from some place outside of Queen Creek on an internet forum? Post away...Others will be taking action in real life and you can read about and judge the results right here!
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Bambi2
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 03:18 pm |
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I'm just stopping by, but I thought I'd ask this of you councilman Barnes.
Is any of your Town's land for sale? If so, I have potential buyers. If I were to bring that buyer to you for that land councilman, what position would you take with me and my buyer? It's not available? You probably should excude yourself from this as you are baised, being a Legion member, so your discussions and vote would reflect that bias. Now, speaking to you as your role of a councilman: "Wouldn't it be more profitable for the Town to sell that land rather than giving land away at this point in time?" Please answer as a councilman (representing all the residents), not as a private citizen(representing yourself). Can that 8 acres be purchased? Perhaps someone could purchase it from the town, then lease it back to the Legion or to?
Is the Legion Post in downtown Gilbert owned by them? On Gilbert Days, that Post is full to the brim of people wondering in and out....Legionaires and.non Legionaires, consuming alcohol in the Legion, then taking it outside. liability.
What safeguards can you guarantee, that this won't happen in QC's Park? The last thing you want is a drunk wondering around a Park with kids playing, looking for his car or keys. More liability?
Just wondering and trying to explore all the scenarios. My primary concern is the effect the alcohol consumed in the Legion will have on children playing in a Park.....from any town. Kids wander around and typically don't stay where they are supposed to stay. They explore.
Are there any other parcels available, not located in a Park, as what you want to do and build for the community is outstanding?
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luv2garden
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 03:14 pm |
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Halos 2 wrote:
There are alcoholic beverages served in a Legion Hall, the closest baseball, soccer and basketball court would be a quarter of a mile away, un like Rudy’s that shares a parking lot with the library, Serrano’s that is separated by a chain link fence let’s say 100 feet from the playground, Uncle Bears and Trophies that use the parking lot of Tutor Time, and so on and so on. There are thousands of legion posts in parks and town/city owned buildings across the country, the closest will be Gilbert.
Yes but does the town want the liability?
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 06:55 am |
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starleen wrote: halos02, I know you are passionate about the community and its destiny and its present situation. My position is that as an elected public official you shouldn't come on a public forum with your views as a citizen.
I've never held public office but I think it must be maddening to have been elected on a platform with 51% of the voters (a majority, whatever the number) and yet have to deal with the opinions of the remaining 49% and also those of the 51% who might conflict with you on some issues while agreeing on others, and vice versa.
I can't imagine the conflicts that honest elected officials go through, weighing their personal beliefs and interests against the interests of the community as a whole, now and for the future, beyond your term. Thanks.
Why not? I pay taxes, shop here and do everything else anyone from Queen Creek does. It’s hard to think that people don’t think I can keep things separated. My job as a council member is to make decisions that will improve the community; I am fine with 99.5% of the people disagreeing with me as long as everyone has the same information. I can’t debate a subject with someone that doesn’t know anything about the subject. Isn’t that we do on these things, try to get all the facts out so everyone is on the same page?
I am trying to do things for the community as a whole, if you come to a Council Meeting, I bring up the things that most of us are thinking, why are the roads always under construction and when they are done why are they so rough, why do we need to spend $100,000 over five years for an additional internet provider that goes down five times a year three of those times was because of electrical reasons. I would rather not lay someone off. Remove a median; add a service for the community.
I don’t care if people live in a county island, in a different county or another state, if something affects them they should have a voice, I will listen.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 06:34 am |
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Forbidden.Fruit wrote: halos02 wrote: orchardranchres wrote: halos02 wrote:
Queen Creek Councilman Craig Barnes says the time is now for the town to facilitate volunteer help for town operations, events and promotions. "It would save the town millions of dollars," Councilman Barnes said of the town using nonprofit organizations for events and promotions. "Most holiday (events) are done in other towns with some kind of nonprofit, but Queen Creek would rather spend the money and pay for it, which doesn’t make sense to me.
How big is the town budget? In newspaper it said around 20 million. How much do we spend from the town on charity or stuff that nonprofit does? Are you saying we spend millions on charity? If so, I want every one of you fired.
What I said and what was written in the paper were two different things.
What I said was that if the town was to lease that part of West Park to the Legion it could save the town millions of dollars and provide a place for all veterans, family members of veterans, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, seniors as well as anyone that would like to have a wedding, class reunions or any other gatherings.
Where do the millions come from?
Building that section of the park (don’t know how much but probably a million or more)
Bringing services from Sossaman to the park $1.3 Mil
Baseball field $500,000
Basketball Court $50,000
Senior Program $30,000
Not counting permits, Taxes, Fees and sales tax.
Did you say the American Legion is going to build a basketball court and baseball field? If they have that money, why don't they just buy their own land? They can buy two acres with that much.
What does bringing services from Sossaman to the park mean?
The legion wants to put in for grants with the Diamondbacks, Suns and others. The Legion would like to bring Legion Baseball to Queen Creek. 60% of all pro baseball players have played Legion Baseball.
Services to the park would be sewer and water.
The only thing the Legion is asking for at this time is a chance to talk to the council about a plan and an agreement that can be made to help the community.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 06:27 am |
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luv2garden wrote: Pardon me if no one has brought this up. The request is to put a Legion Hall in a public park. Aren't there alcoholic beverages consumed at the Hall? Is this a good combination with children and soccer and baseball fields? I am far from a tea-totler but this just doesn't strike me as a very good idea. This is one of the reasons I believe it was turned down in the first place.
There are alcoholic beverages served in a Legion Hall, the closest baseball, soccer and basketball court would be a quarter of a mile away, un like Rudy’s that shares a parking lot with the library, Serrano’s that is separated by a chain link fence let’s say 100 feet from the playground, Uncle Bears and Trophies that use the parking lot of Tutor Time, and so on and so on. There are thousands of legion posts in parks and town/city owned buildings across the country, the closest will be Gilbert.
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Forbidden.Fruit
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 05:38 am |
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halos02 wrote: orchardranchres wrote: halos02 wrote:
Queen Creek Councilman Craig Barnes says the time is now for the town to facilitate volunteer help for town operations, events and promotions. "It would save the town millions of dollars," Councilman Barnes said of the town using nonprofit organizations for events and promotions. "Most holiday (events) are done in other towns with some kind of nonprofit, but Queen Creek would rather spend the money and pay for it, which doesn’t make sense to me.
How big is the town budget? In newspaper it said around 20 million. How much do we spend from the town on charity or stuff that nonprofit does? Are you saying we spend millions on charity? If so, I want every one of you fired.
What I said and what was written in the paper were two different things.
What I said was that if the town was to lease that part of West Park to the Legion it could save the town millions of dollars and provide a place for all veterans, family members of veterans, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, seniors as well as anyone that would like to have a wedding, class reunions or any other gatherings.
Where do the millions come from?
Building that section of the park (don’t know how much but probably a million or more)
Bringing services from Sossaman to the park $1.3 Mil
Baseball field $500,000
Basketball Court $50,000
Senior Program $30,000
Not counting permits, Taxes, Fees and sales tax.
Did you say the American Legion is going to build a basketball court and baseball field? If they have that money, why don't they just buy their own land? They can buy two acres with that much.
What does bringing services from Sossaman to the park mean?
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luv2garden
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 05:37 am |
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Pardon me if no one has brought this up. The request is to put a Legion Hall in a public park. Aren't there alcoholic beverages consumed at the Hall? Is this a good combination with children and soccer and baseball fields? I am far from a tea-totler but this just doesn't strike me as a very good idea. This is one of the reasons I believe it was turned down in the first place.
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starleen
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 05:28 am |
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halos02, I know you are passionate about the community and its destiny and its present situation. My position is that as an elected public official you shouldn't come on a public forum with your views as a citizen.
I've never held public office but I think it must be maddening to have been elected on a platform with 51% of the voters (a majority, whatever the number) and yet have to deal with the opinions of the remaining 49% and also those of the 51% who might conflict with you on some issues while agreeing on others, and vice versa.
I can't imagine the conflicts that honest elected officials go through, weighing their personal beliefs and interests against the interests of the community as a whole, now and for the future, beyond your term. Thanks.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 05:18 am |
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orchardranchres wrote: halos02 wrote:
Queen Creek Councilman Craig Barnes says the time is now for the town to facilitate volunteer help for town operations, events and promotions. "It would save the town millions of dollars," Councilman Barnes said of the town using nonprofit organizations for events and promotions. "Most holiday (events) are done in other towns with some kind of nonprofit, but Queen Creek would rather spend the money and pay for it, which doesn’t make sense to me.
How big is the town budget? In newspaper it said around 20 million. How much do we spend from the town on charity or stuff that nonprofit does? Are you saying we spend millions on charity? If so, I want every one of you fired.
What I said and what was written in the paper were two different things.
What I said was that if the town was to lease that part of West Park to the Legion it could save the town millions of dollars and provide a place for all veterans, family members of veterans, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, seniors as well as anyone that would like to have a wedding, class reunions or any other gatherings.
Where do the millions come from?
Building that section of the park (don’t know how much but probably a million or more)
Bringing services from Sossaman to the park $1.3 Mil
Baseball field $500,000
Basketball Court $50,000
Senior Program $30,000
Not counting permits, Taxes, Fees and sales tax.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 04:49 am |
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starleen wrote: GSBill wrote: Barnes mentioned something thats really good about Queen Creek. You can always get a face to face meeting with nearly anybody you want to talk to..from the mayor to our council members to our town manager and everybody in between. I hope we never lose that aspect of our local government. Anybody posting can easily get a face to face. Works way better than quoting the news when debating issues. I suggest taking advantage of offers to meet and discuss issues.
I made the face to face at the voting booth (when I lived in TOQC last year). I intend for the elected persons to go and do the majority will, so I don't NEED to waste my time and their's with face to face diatribe that isn't a part of the record and will likely lead nowhere. That's part of what a representative government does. You think the council wants 10,000 town people clamoring at the gates for a "face to face?" We've all got better ways to spend time.
The face to face at the voting booth is great, I wish more people would. How do I know what the majority wants unless they tell me? I can’t go by what people when I don’t know where they live and their names.
When I meet with people I take notes and take it very serious. When I met with the neighbors of Schnepf Farms about that issue I made sure people knew what their concerns were.
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halos02
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 04:31 am |
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starleen wrote: As a council member and an elected official you are crossing a line here. You are abusing your position of influence on a public forum, and as an elected official you can't have it both ways. Your job as a council member is to protect the interests of the town, not to advance the interests of "social groups" or non-profits or whatever. And playing the "Veteran" card to advance the issue is really sort of cheesy. (I'm a veteran also, and many in my family are.) Veterans choose to serve and without strings attached like the right to 8 acres for a clubhouse. I personally resent the guilt trip strategy.
How am I crossing a line? I did not bring the American Legion to the town this time, I did before I was on the Council and I was the Commander of the post. I have never said that because I am a veteran I deserve 8 acres. Does anyone know what was proposed by the Legion? Or are you just saying NO, we dont want to hear it.
Why dont you want it? Is there a reason? I would like to find out.
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