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Spin Reply
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Posted: Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 09:30 pm |
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The 55 age restriction is here to stay! All real estate agents should take heed! 
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Basil MacDougal
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Posted: Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 02:30 pm |
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| Good for you katiem, and the best of good luck to you. Last edited on Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 02:32 pm by Basil MacDougal
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DreamlandMan
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Posted: Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 08:09 am |
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Great points by Flompy...
I live in an 'age-restricted' community that, next to SC, is the second largest of its kind in Maricopa County, it's called Dreamland Villa.
Flompy is 100% correct regarding property values declining for 55-plus, age-restricted communities.
If anything, the Sun Cities need to lower the age for residents to 45-plus. It's the only way to preserve and protect your communities, that at one time way back when were showcase neighborhood, from the certain and eventual decline that will result in your communities becoming nothing more than a large area of 'BLIGHT.'
ESTER SOUNDS LIKE THE KIND OF SELF-CENTERED INDIVIDUAL WHO THINKS NOTHING OF WHAT'S BEST FOR THE MAJORITY, ONLY WHAT'S BEST FOR THEMSELVES!...........
..........The kind of person who bitches about having to help fund a school district, but forgets that way, way, way back when, other people were footing the bill that enabled her children or children related to her to receive publicly funded educations.
Hey Ester, I don't know exactly why a small percentage of citizens such as yourself become increasingly bitter and resentful of others as we enter our final few years of living due to many factors such as the death of a loved one, or continual health problems, or frustration over money shortages because of fixed incomes, but being bitter and resentful only adds to a person's misery. Ester, perhaps an influx of new residents of the age of 45 and over would prove to be a positive experience that could help your outlook and disposition.
Esther are there any underlying reasons for you attitude such as a fear of people with darker skin than yours becoming your neighbors? Had to ask because many times this is the real reason that seniors like yourself have this point of view.
Many these people originate from neighborhoods that at one time, were segregated. Racism was very common throughout various southern states back in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, although people from these areas often won't admit it.
Anyway, I doubt your name is Esther Gruntz....... I think you are very likely to be much younger than you pretend in your postings.
No man is an island and that goes for women by the name of Esther also.
I once tried living on an island but had to move back to Arizona due to hundreds of coconuts always falling on my head..........The good thing about the coconuts was that I no longer needed a frontal lobotomy.
Last edited on Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 08:18 am by DreamlandMan
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katiem
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Posted: Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 05:55 am |
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| I hope to move from Sun City in late '09, hopefully to be nearer my son in Tempe. I guess my philosophy just doesn't mesh with age restricted communities!
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Basil MacDougal
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 10:56 pm |
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katiem wrote: What is so wrong with being young? Reading all the snarky comments about people who aren't old smacks of envy or jealousy. .......The young are the ones who will keep the place going, when the rest of us get frozen financially on our fixed incomes and frozen up with age related ailments. I live in a complex of people in their 70s and 80s. Not one can be called on when one needs help, save my next door neighbor, bless her soon to be 70 year old heart. We help each other. The rest of our neighbors are behind their locked doors, only to appear when the ambulance comes to collect them. These are the people who will keep Sun City alive?
I hate to break it to you, Katiem, but if you get "frozen financially" you may find yourself out on your ear. That is the sad reality. It is great that you have a neighbor that is still able to help do things. Unfortunately, when you move to a community that will accept people only of a certain age, and you shun everyone else outside of that bubble, then you've confined yourself and will reap only what you sow.
So, "what is so wrong with being young?" Not a thing.
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Basil MacDougal
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 10:46 pm |
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Bill Pearson wrote: .......I just hope if i'm fortunate enough to reach my seventies, eighties and nineties i won't be looking at those in their 50's and 60's as a blight on the community.
I just wonder why so many feel that people in their 30's and 40's (or younger) are a blight to Sun City.
And, I guess this is aimed more at people who have commented on other threads, what exactly is an acceptable age for a person to be considered "good for the community?" I know the age is set at fifty five, but who decided that was the age when someone could be accepted into the community?
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katiem
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 10:02 pm |
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What is so wrong with being young? Reading all the snarky comments about people who aren't old smacks of envy or jealousy. Sun City is not such a cheap place to live, either, with all the fees and the preservation fee(what are we preserving?). The rec center fees are also being raised this year. I don't use them, but I must pay anyway. The latest property tax bills were based on 2007 home prices, when we had the boom. I have looked for work to enable me to afford this place, but to no avail. Those of you who are upset about people in Sun City still working, how do you avoid it in this economy? People are putting off retirement because pensions and health care benefits are disappearing. Those worried about a lack of retirees in Sun City are probably the last generation who never heard of downsizing or outsourcing, who worked for one employer for 40 or 50 years, enjoying generous benefits and employer loyalty. I can't imagine what kind of pensions you must have, or that you never have to touch your IRAs to survive it all. Believe me, those halcyon days are long gone.
As far as changing for the young, what are we changing? The young are the ones who will keep the place going, when the rest of us get frozen financially on our fixed incomes and frozen up with age related ailments. I live in a complex of people in their 70s and 80s. Not one can be called on when one needs help, save my next door neighbor, bless her soon to be 70 year old heart. We help each other. The rest of our neighbors are behind their locked doors, only to appear when the ambulance comes to collect them. These are the people who will keep Sun City alive?
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Bill Pearson
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 08:04 pm |
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Sorry Esther, we just won't agree on this one. It is interesting to note in all of the research i've done regarding Sun City, these kinds of debates have raged ad nauseam. Seems the older folks are always looking over their shoulders at the younger ones. I just hope if i'm fortunate enough to reach my seventies, eighties and nineties i won't be looking at those in their 50's and 60's as a blight on the community.
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Esther Gruntz
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 06:32 pm |
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| There was a time when 50 was the appropriate age. Then, they bumped it up to 55. Maybe it is time to bump it up a few more years then. People are living longer these days......makes sense. Think about it Bill.
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Bill Pearson
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 06:15 pm |
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Call me jaded Esther, but i have this strange sensation you'll never make it as part of the welcoming committee in Sun City.
Just for the record, there was a time when 50 was the legal allowable age to live here. Seems to me there is record of it in your title paper documents. The powers that be decided 55 was the "right age." The increase in age came about prior to the laws protecting age restricted communities, they now in fact conform to the laws; which are:
The Housing for Older Persons Act of 1995 revised the definition of the original exemption contained in the Fair Housing Act. To qualify for exemption, a community must show that:- It is intended and operated for occupancy by persons 55 years of age or older, and
- At least 80 percent of the units are occupied by at least one person who is 55 years of age or older; and
- It provides for age verification by reliable surveys and affidavits; and
- It has published and adheres to policies and procedures that demonstrate its intent to qualify for the exemption.
This may well be the most important function SCHOA serves in that there is no other entity that monitors and reports the percentages to the appropriate agency.
Again, let me welcome all of you over 55 or who have a spouse of legal age buying into this truly awesome place to live.
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Esther Gruntz
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 05:54 pm |
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piperaz wrote: Thankfully that will never happen. Raising the age to 62-65 to live in Sun City. It would be a horrible to be told we have to sell our house and move because we aren't mature enough. Give me a break !
My husband and I moved to Sun City about 3 years ago and we are both 60 now. We love it here and our older neighbors love us. We have come to the aid of our neighbor several times and visit him. He is 90 and apprecriates us so much. We also moved my mother close to us so we can help her also. She is 88. My husband still works full time and I work part time. We have felt welcomed here and look forward to the day that we can get more involved with all the activities here. Thinking we are not mature enough to live here is just not true.
Well, you seem decent enough. Maybe they could just increase the age to 60. Folks that own a house here and are under that age, could still keep their house. They just couldn't live in it like flumpy says. Maybe they could rent it out to some snowbirds.
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Esther Gruntz
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 05:49 pm |
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Cindy9607 wrote: Ok, tell me she is joking! I'm 54 and will soon buy a home in Sun City. If you don't like people under "age", maybe you should buy an Island just for yourself. I did buy an island, so to speak; I bought a house in Sun City. Why are you buying a house here? There are websites where you can purchase one, after you sell your house. Get a real life lady, age 55, is old enough. If you ask me, 55 is too young. You've got different ideas about things. You wouldn't be happy living around old people. Don't be angry and don't sweat the small stuff  I'm not angry. I think it is important to remain active within one's community.
Cindy "old enough to know better" and "young enough" to still enjoy life. Do you need a date? I don't need a date and you are not my type.
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Bill Pearson
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 03:28 pm |
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Interesting comments flompy and while your arguments sound logical, they are illogically unsound when you go to the root. You sound like a real estate agent who wants a larger base of people to sell homes to.
On one hand you claim there are "4000 potential buyers" here if we lowered the age to something less than 55. In your opening you pointed out any one can buy in Sun City, they just can't live here until they are 55. I know the argument well, we bought when we were 51 and moved in when we were 55. It worked out nicely.
The real problem to your "solution" is that Sun City was built as a retirement community. Lowering the age limits and allowing people to move to Sun City is that what you will attract is younger working folks who don't have the time to join clubs, play golf, go to the rec centers or volunteer in their free time. That becomes counter productive to maintaining Del Webb's vision as to what Sun City was all about.
The largest segment of new owners in Sun City are coming from around the West Valley who are still working and see Sun City as a cheaper, quieter, safer and better place to live. Nothing wrong with that, but we really need to start promoting Sun City as a great retirement community.
As far as people moaning about deteriorating home values, duh, its not just in Sun City. The entire home market has been hit and if you check the stats you will see home sales in Sun City haven't been hit as hard and the percentage of value lost hasn't been as great as surrounding communities.
Beyond that, the rec centers are being remolded on a pay as they go basis. The RCSC is taking on no debt yet is turning the aging facilities into very, very nice amenities with state of the art equipment. Look at Bell Rec Center, SunDial and the Fairway project that is just beginning will be every bit as gorgeous.
Just to keep this discussion going, take a drive through Sun City and look at the remodeling. While Sun City homes are well built, they are dated. All across the three primary phases owners (new and old alike) are updating them and when they do sell they command solid values at resale.
You are right on this: SCHOA has taken a hard line on under age. It is our charge to report yearly the stats on the percentage of underage to the federal governenment. Our goal is to stay well above the 80% mark. The fact is there lots of underage people living in Sun City legally. It can be because an underage spouse is living with an age qualified partner or because kids (over 19) are living with their parents over 55.
Last year alone SCHOA dealt with 190 reported cases of underage. This year the numbers are running even higher. It is critical we stay ahead of that game and granting of variances is not something we are required to do. The fact is, everyone has a hardship story and where and when do you draw the line?
Your argumenets are little more than the proverbial red herrring. The home selling markets are depressed (and will get worse before they get better). Lowering the age will do nothing for the community but admittedly would help agents sell more homes. If the reward is that we destroy the concept of a retirement community, what have we gained?
The fact is, in 2010 Sun City will celebrate it's 50th anniversary. It will provide real estate agents the best promotional opportunity they have had since opening day 1960. Add to it that in 2011 the largest percentage of baby boomers will hit retirement age and we will see a facinating dynamic unfold. Sun City will become an awesome prospect for any agent who goes looking for potential retirees around the country to market to
SCHOA has a 20 page magazine we are giving to realtors who want them. It's the history of Sun City, why living here is such a great choice and just how this self-governance community works. If you need some, just stop down to our offices on Coggins Ave. There is some other really cool stuff in the works, but it's too early to reveal that.
Finally, welcome to all those who have just hit 55 (or older) and are moving into Sun City. We love having you. And while many of you still need to work, i hope you can find time to take part in all Sun City has to offer. Whether it's the free shows at the Sun Bowl, a tennis match at Lakeview, volunteering at Boswell hospital, a walk in the pool at Bell or joining one of the 132 chartered clubs, it's just a great place to live.
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flompy
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 08:25 am |
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| PS: You can own property in the Sun Cities at any legal age (legal adult - not senior). Restrictions apply only to residence (i.e. living there on a full time basis). Someone 25 can own a house, but can't live there.
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flompy
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 08:17 am |
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Folks, here's what the age restrictions mean to you on a practical level (beyond any governmental benefit already applicable): It lowers your property value, by limiting the pool of potential buyers. The higher the age limit goes, the more the value declines. It used to be 50. Feel free to compare the value of your home with any comparable property outside the Sun Cities. Anyone who wants to increase the limit above 55 simply wants their home value to further decrease. No other rational explanation could exist that I can imagine.
Presently, 80% of residents must be 55 or older. 20% of primary residents may be less. A variance provision exists in the bylaws for those seeking to become part of the 20% noncompliant. Word on the street (and per a number of local law offices I checked in with for research) is"don't waste your time applying for a variance - it will be denied" While variances (as opposed to permitted or conditional uses) should be strictly construed, there must be a rational basis for a denial. Apparently, such a review does not presently exist. What this ultimately means is, with regard to at least Sun City, is a lawsuit. It WILL happen.
Westbrook Villlage (the Union Hills area in the 80s/90s), which incorporates a similar age restriction, apparently has a policy regarding variances, uses it, and grants variances rationally and when applicable. It would seem the policy is well known to real estate brokers, who certainly would use it as a selling tool. Compare their property values to nearby Sun City properties - including those just over the wall.
So what do the older Sun Cities want? I would guess the Westbrook policy invites inquiries, and helps avoid those who "sneak in". And I believe their property values reflect that. There may be Sun Citians who want low property values (medicaid, etc.), but I doubt they are the majority. Instead, a large pool of desirable and potential Sun City buyers are virtually cut off due to the understanding the HOA/PORA and the rec centers simply refuse to work on the 20% variance issue (Applicants would still have to meet the age 19 requirement). And your home values reflect the result.
I've read a great deal regarding the dying rec centers, country clubs - declining use and discussions to determine a method for bringing in new members. Guess what? They're out there, but they see no way in. So, the fiscal issues continue.
And guess what else? If your house is worth substantially less than anything else in Maricopa County (please let me know if you think I'm wrong), what kind of 55+ buyers are you going to attract? If the value of your property increases (an influx of those in the mid-upper middle class), you can generally expect a neighbor who keeps up their yard, won't keep you up until the wee hours watching reality show reruns on a sofa on their porch, and owns less than 13 cars built before 1990 .
It's already happening. The older Sun Cities are not attracting the buyers who could revitalize them. And they won't absent encouraging the 20% - especially given the current real estate market. Youngtown blew it for obvious reasons. The Sun Cities will acheive the same result by neglect.
You folks figure it out. Me? Get the 20% in, with the child limitations, and get some folks to spend some money playing golf and tennis. And, unless you want your home to continue to be worth the price of many mobile homes or those in areas where you wouldn't want to live, the reviews should happen much sooner than later.
How to do it with maximum beneficial effect? It could be done quietly, and wait for word to get around, with a corresponding eventual rise in real estate prices. However, I would suggest a major and well-publicized announcement (or at least through the big real estate broker offices) by the owners' associations that variance applications are encouraged and welcomed and will be fairly and promptly (people won't enter a contract absent approval) reviewed. That the Sun Cities want some folks who may not strictly comply, but who will boost the crumbling areas of these communities - who don't meet the age restriction, but meet the federal guidelines up to 20% (or maybe 15% to cover any "cheaters). I would guess we're looking at at least 4,000 potential buyers out there who may be sitting on the fence. Who want to spend money, and contribute, but have no reason to even try.
Or, everyone can keep screaming about the shrinking values of their homes, and deteriorating amenities, but fail to do anything about it.
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Cindy9607
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Posted: Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 06:49 am |
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Ok, tell me she is joking! I'm 54 and will soon buy a home in Sun City. If you don't like people under "age", maybe you should buy an Island just for yourself. There are websites where you can purchase one, after you sell your house. Get a real life lady, age 55, is old enough. Don't be angry and don't sweat the small stuff
Cindy "old enough to know better" and "young enough" to still enjoy life. Do you need a date?
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piperaz
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Posted: Wed Oct 1st, 2008 08:21 pm |
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Esther Gruntz wrote: I think they need to boost the age limit to 62 or 65 since most people retire at around that age. Anyone who does not currently meet that limit should be forced to sell their house and leave. There's no sense changing things for the younger set. Can you imagine making people sell their homes in this economy just because we are the "younger set". We moved to Sun City to downsize and get ready for retirement. We love it here. It is wonderful. Nice neighbors, rec centers, very clean. Not asking for anything to change.
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piperaz
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Posted: Wed Oct 1st, 2008 06:50 pm |
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Thankfully that will never happen. Raising the age to 62-65 to live in Sun City. It would be a horrible to be told we have to sell our house and move because we aren't mature enough. Give me a break !
My husband and I moved to Sun City about 3 years ago and we are both 60 now. We love it here and our older neighbors love us. We have come to the aid of our neighbor several times and visit him. He is 90 and apprecriates us so much. We also moved my mother close to us so we can help her also. She is 88. My husband still works full time and I work part time. We have felt welcomed here and look forward to the day that we can get more involved with all the activities here. Thinking we are not mature enough to live here is just not true.
Last edited on Wed Oct 1st, 2008 07:00 pm by piperaz
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Spin Reply
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:19 am |
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Community involvement is important as well. Enforcement can not happen unless a report is made by a resident in the neighborhood to SCHOA. That probably didn't happen in Youngtown. 
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Slow Lane
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 12:59 am |
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From the CC&R's regarding age restriction:
2. Housing for Older Persons; Age Restriction. The Property is
intended to constitute housing intended and operated for occupancy by at
least one person fifty-five (55) years of age or older per unit under the Fair
Housing Amendments Act of 1988, U.S.C. § 3600, et seq., and the
Arizona Fair Housing Act, A.R.S. § 44-1491, et seq., (collectively, the “Fair
Housing Acts”). Except as provided below, at least one occupant of each
residential unit must be 55 years of age or older, and no person under
nineteen (19) years of age shall occupy or reside in a residential unit for
more than ninety (90) days in any twelve (12) month period.
a) The Association may grant variances from the above
restrictions, unless the granting of a variance would result in less than
eighty percent (80%) of the residential units being occupied by one person
fifty-five (55) years of age or older or would otherwise jeopardize the
Property’s status as housing for older persons under the Fair Housing
Acts. Any request for a variance submitted to the Association pursuant to
this subsection shall set forth the names and ages of all proposed
residents of the residential unit, the reason for the request and such other
information as the Association may reasonably require.
(b) The Board shall adopt, publish and enforce such policies and
procedures and rules and regulations as are deemed necessary by the
Board in order to demonstrate an intent to provide housing for occupancy
by at least one person fifty-five (55) years of age or older per unit and to
maintain the status of the Property as housing for older persons under the
Fair Housing Acts. Such policies and procedures shall provide for
verification of the age of the residents by reliable surveys and affidavits,
and each resident, if requested to do so by the Association, shall furnish
the Association with the names and ages of all occupants of the
residential unit and such affidavits and other documents as the
Association may request to verify the ages of such occupants.
Enforcement and record keeping is key to maintaining our age status community!
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Bored
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 10:38 pm |
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| As I understand the "Youngtown" issue, they lost their age overlay due to lack of enforcement or selective enforcement. In other words, nothing was done to violators until a 16 yr. old grandson of a resident needed to live with his grandparents for some reason and then they attempted to enforce a heretofore unenforced deed restriction. The judge ruled appropriately. That is the exact reason why SCHOA is sorely needed in Sun City, along with a plethora of other benefits which members receive, of course. Unfortunately, Del Webb established it as a voluntary membership so many parsimonious non-members, derive almost the same benefits as members do. Oops, is that a dangling participle?
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katiem
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 11:04 pm |
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| If you raise the age limit, how are a bunch of people on fixed incomes and aging physical abilities going to maintain the place over the years?
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Bill Pearson
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Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 02:10 pm |
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Frankly OLW, i don't think there is anything in the CC&R's about the sectional being out there. Our patio is enclosed and we have several pieces of furniture on it, including a couch.
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Old Wise Sage
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Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 04:53 am |
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Thanks Bill. I don't claim to have a vast lexicon, but once in awhile I do surprise myself. Feel free to pass it out among your friends....
Anywho, are there limitations in the regs against certain front porch furniture? I'm not planning on putting the sectional sofa out there, but I want a large porch swing.
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Bill Pearson
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 02:45 pm |
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Awesome word to describe Sun City OWS...gestalt...and to help clarify why, here's from the Merriam Webster Online dictionary: "a structure, configuration, or pattern of physical, biological, or psychological phenomena so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable by summation of its parts."
Sun City is a sum total of of its parts. It is what makes us unique from all of the others. It has character and individuality that others lack. The more people know when they move here, the better they will integrate into and become a part of.
I doubt you will ever see an RCSC golf course close, the Articles Of Incorporation are pretty tight in that regard. And if we ever lose one of the private courses developers would swallow the land up in a heartbeat.
There was a study in the 90's that said Sun City needed more gathering spaces. Some people were angered by the indoor sitting area at the Bell pool entrance. Funny thing is, people do sit and watch tv and chat. And hang around any of the pools and listen to the chatter, its where people go for socialization. Hopefully when the Fairway project is done we'll see more of the same.
I know the front of our house has a great patio area and in the cooler months we sit out front and often have breakfast, and say hi to those passing by. And what's better than flying down the street on your golf car and waving to the multitudes out for a stroll?
Sun City; ya gotta love it.
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Old Wise Sage
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 01:33 am |
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I see your point, Bill. And, I think it is important, as a diverse population continues to pour into Sun City, that they become involved in many of the social programs. This will help give them a better sense of ownership and the ability to see the gestalt of their new community. It becomes too easy for many to entrench themselves in their individual lives, their houses, and their families without considering themselves part of their own neighborhoods.
Maybe we need to turn part of the golf course into a park--you know, a good place for people to gather out of doors. I used to sit in the park in downtown Glendale and play dominoes nearly everyday. It was wonderful. All of America needs to get out of the house a little more often. There aren't enough front porches being built anymore.
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Bill Pearson
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 08:06 pm |
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The man who managed our trusted health and welfare plan for the members of our union used to make the argument that as much as wage disparity was an issue, benefit disparity would be the great divide for many boomers. He was dead on right.
The cost of health care as we age is staggering OWS and the difference of a defined benefit plan to a defined contribution plan is just as challenging for many boomers. Many employers have shifted their views on the social contract with their employees; hence we find many boomers who will be forced to work longer. On the other hand, there are plenty of boomers who have invested well, done nicely in the housing market and can retire with no problems.
As far as the duality of my comments, i think you misunderstood them. I have always understood those who show up are the ones who make the difference. There are plenty of folks who piss and moan but won't do anything to change or improve what they dislike. I knew exactly what Sun City was when i moved here and my interest was to help preserve it, help make it better if i could.
If you follow my posts i always encourage residents to take ownership. It was the mantra i used with the members of the local i ran, and i know how well it can work. I also came to understand when people get involved the potential for success increases, and it means we need to learn to listen to one another. There's never just one right way.
On the other hand, my comments about getting people to understand how and why Sun City works is an absolute reflection of the above. If we have boomers moving here who think they can just buy there way in and do nothing to help, we could face real problems down the road.
Scroggy and i have argued about what Sun City is. I don't think he and i are all that far off on how we view the community. I've looked at the newer, nicer Sun City properties and i can see many boomers with loads of money liking the idea of just hiring out everything that gets done in them. We cannot afford that luxury in the original Sun City.
The point being is just because we tell people exactly what Sun City is and how it works doesn't insure it will stay the same. I know there are lots of potential boomers who will be looking for a community exactly like ours where the amenities are really good, the costs are reasonable and that giving back will play an important part of whether they buy here or not.
In the next 5 years look for half of Sun City to turn over. Boomers will be the largest majority of those buying here. We shouldn't fear them because they are younger than the oldsters, but welcome them. I always believed we can manage change, but that means we set ourselves up by doing the right things before it happens.
I hope that helps explain what i was saying OWS.
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Old Wise Sage
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 07:28 pm |
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Bill Pearson wrote: .......The funny thing is, history has shown that not much has changed. The projections have never been near as fatal as those spewing their fears. Those who were fortunate enough to get here in their 50's almost always evolved and became age sensitive. Must be some kind of right of passage.
...........I've found some of the old timers looking over their shoulders and telling me "that's not the way we do it here kid."
I just laugh, i came from a bureaucratic structure and heard it my whole life. Truth is, i never bought the crap; it's usually said by those too lazy to try something new or different.......... forget about what age people are, other than if they are 55. If they meet that criteria, then it is important we make sure they understand how and what makes Sun City work. For many boomers, they will have plenty of money and no interest in giving back to the community. Not to sound snobbish, but there are other age restricted communities that may be more to their liking; ones that can afford to just pay to have everything done for them. Hopefully Sun City will always be about residents becoming a part of the community, taking ownership in its success...without regard to age.
Bill, from what I have been reading, the outlook for boomers is not exactly as rosy as you might think. Many will have to continue to work at least part time to supplement their retirement--if they can afford to retire at all. They certainly can't count on the future of Social Security and a lot of the time they are screwed out of their pensions.
I am also bothered by the things you said here that I have highlighted. You laugh at the "older" Sun Citians who try to tell you "that's not the way we do it here, kid." Yet you want to make sure any newcomers (younger and presumably more affluent than yourself) understand how things work in Sun City....What exactly is different in this line of thinking?
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John 456
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:07 pm |
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Related to question of prohibitions based on age is the legality to of “age-restricted active adult (55 years and older) communities”. The answer is that Fair Housing Act, Section 3607, provides an exemption for these types of communities, making them legal if certain criteria are met. For an “age-restricted community” to qualify under this exemption, it must have eighty (80%) percent of its units occupied by at least one person whom is fifty five (55) years or older, the community must publish and strictly adhere to policies and procedures that demonstrate the intent required under Section 3607 (i.e., intent to restrict housing to individuals over age 55), and the community must comply with the rules issued by the federal and state officials for verification of occupancy.
Also: Federal Register/vol64/#63
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xsiv1
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:56 am |
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correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this whole age thing a mute point? As I understand it the age requirement is set by the government and not by Sun City. I believe that this is exactly how Youngtown got into the situation they are in now by trying to set aside areas where under 55 people could live, and by doing this they lost their age overlay and wound up having to open up the entire town to anyone.
So it would seem to me that this should never even be somrthing to consider especially since no one seems to want to become another Youngtown
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Bill Pearson
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 02:08 am |
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This is an interesting topic and one that deserves an open discussion. I have been reading several studies from years past on Sun City and it appears there have always been these kinds of issues. Age differentiation has been at the core of every study and a topic where the older folks questioned what the younger residents would do to their beloved community.
The funny thing is, history has shown that not much has changed. The projections have never been near as fatal as those spewing their fears. Those who were fortunate enough to get here in their 50's almost always evolved and became age sensitive. Must be some kind of right of passage.
I too am a boomer; bought at 51 and rented the place out till we turned 55 and moved in immediately. We've been here 5 years and tried to ingrain ourselves in the community as much as possible. I've found some of the old timers looking over their shoulders and telling me "that's not the way we do it here kid."
I just laugh, i came from a bureaucratic structure and heard it my whole life. Truth is, i never bought the crap; it's usually said by those too lazy to try something new or different. I guess the good news is, i understand if i put my hand up with an idea, in all likelihood, i'll be the one doing the work.
I don't think there is any question that boomers will come here having potentially different values and maybe even attitudes about what they are looking for in "retirement." As i told Rusty, i think Sun City will be appealing to many of the boomers, but it is important we at least listen to what they may want.
In my humble opinion, the best thing we can do is forget about what age people are, other than if they are 55. If they meet that criteria, then it is important we make sure they understand how and what makes Sun City work. For many boomers, they will have plenty of money and no interest in giving back to the community. Not to sound snobbish, but there are other age restricted communities that may be more to their liking; ones that can afford to just pay to have everything done for them. Hopefully Sun City will always be about residents becoming a part of the community, taking ownership in its success...without regard to age.
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Spin Reply
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Posted: Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 08:04 pm |
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I agree! I have always said "If it isn't broken, don't try to fix it." Sun City residents should welcome everyone 55 and older. Younger residents keep the city vibrant and bring in new ideas.
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EGO Narro Verum
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Posted: Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 03:40 am |
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I was born in the late forties, so I guess that makes me a "baby boomer." While I can't speak for others of my age group, I can speak to some of the issues I have encountered since moving to Sun City five years ago.
First- I think a few people already residing in Sun City need to get past the age issue. The age required to reside in Sun City was set at 55, yet there are some people who feel it should be changed to much older age limit. Some elder residents get down right nasty with younger residents, insinuating they are not as culturally aware of their surroundings, due to their being younger and less immature. Nothing turns a person off more than being treated as if they are not welcome, or "just don't fit in."
Second- While the amenities in Sun City are many, they do not necessarily coincide with what the more active retiree is looking for. Clubs that once were a draw for my grandparents or parents generations, don't inevitably mean that I and other younger residents will be attracted to them. It is widely known that there is a national decline in the golf industry. Bowling is no where near as popular as it was in the 60's and 70's. Yet, thousands and thousands of dollars are spent trying to maintain these facilities, which can not support themselves, even with influence from outside the community. Makes one think they are going the way of the Drive-In Theater, but no one is willing to admit it. While there seems to be more of an interest in "the active lifestyle" by those of my generation, there also is the decline of interest in community type clubs, such as many offered by the recreation centers. This may be influenced again by the age issue and the feeling of many younger residents of not fitting in. As I found, much to my dislike, some of these clubs have a well defined "click" which has been in effect for quite a few years.
I basically enjoy living in Sun City, but it needs some changes just as any community willing to survive. I do not think lowering the age limit will serve Sun City's best interest, nor is it the change that is required for its survival.
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Esther Gruntz
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 09:35 pm |
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| I think they need to boost the age limit to 62 or 65 since most people retire at around that age. Anyone who does not currently meet that limit should be forced to sell their house and leave. There's no sense changing things for the younger set.
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RustyBradshaw
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 07:21 pm |
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By Rusty Bradshaw
Independent Newspapers
As time moves forward, change is inevitable. Some Sun City residents believe change will be good for the community while others are concerned some changes will alter the basic premise of Sun City.
Baby boomers, those born between 1946 and 1964, began turning 55 in 2001, making them eligible to own property and live in Sun City and Sun City West. While these younger residents meet the age minimum to live in the Sun Cities, they may have different desires for their lifestyle.
In an effort to gauge those desires to prepare for changes in the community, Recreation Centers of Sun City West officials conducted a survey, in conjunction with Arizona State University’s Department of Recreation and Tourism Management, to determine what current baby boomers want in comparison with RCSCW policies.
Recreation Center of Sun City officials will use the survey as a guide in determining how to serve the changing population. Tim Gallen, RCSC spokesman, said doing a separate survey for Sun City would be repetitive because of the similarities between Sun City and Sun City West. RCSC officials, while not keeping extensive demographic records, are aware boomers are buying property and moving into the community based on resident records.
While some Sun City residents see benefits to demographic changes in the community, others are concerned that younger residents will resurrect a movement to lower — or even eliminate — the minimum age for residents. According to Sun City’s age overlay, each household in Sun City must have at least one resident 55 or older and no one under 19 can be a permanent resident.
“The age minimum should not change,” said resident Karen Lovegrobve. “That is one of the reasons a lot of people have moved here to an ‘adult’ community.”
While she has not noticed any change in resident age in her immediate neighborhood, resident Beverly Bruce hopes the 55 age minimum does not change.
“Look what happened to Youngtown — just read the crime reports and arrests that are coming out of there now,” she said.
Resident Bob Kent, an RCSC finance and budget committee and 50th anniversary committee member, said while he has not yet seen a significant change in average resident age, he believes it will in coming years as more boomers move into the community.
“(But) I feel the 55 age limit should remain unchanged,” he said.
However, resident Marv Worthen, Sun City Taxpayers Association board president, does not believe there will be a move to change the minimum residency age because resident sentiment is against it.
“I don’t think they will do that unless people can’t sell their homes,” he said. “I think the realtors have thought about this for years, but don’t think it is on the general residents’ mind to allow it.”
While some residents have concerns about the age overlay, others believe the increase of younger residents will be good for Sun City.
Frank and Dottie Barna moved to Sun City when the minimum age was 50 and most of their neighbors were in their 70s and 80s.
“(They) enjoyed having new and younger neighbors,” Ms. Barna said. “Now we are in our 70s and look forward to others in there 50s moving here. They bring a vitality whereas ours has tarnished a bit.”
The Barnas actively welcome new residents, of any age, in their neighborhood by conducting neighborhood coffees and get-togethers several times a year to meet new neighbors.
Resident Priscilla Ann Gibson agrees younger people adds vibrance and energy to the community. It offers her more interesting and continuing associations, she added.
But she said the changing age can be attributed to more than baby boomers.
“I see a lowering of age of people moving into Sun City as people come to take care of aging relatives,” she said. “Also, some people are looking for new opportunities as they transition into a new phase of life.”
While most agree the average age is changing or will see significant shifts in the near future, not all agree it has positive consequences for Sun City.
“My concern has been that I hear rumbles that the newer, younger people are not as volunteer-minded as the original members have been,” said resident Marjorie Simmons. “We need to keep this a city of volunteers — helping one another.”
Mr. Worthen believes many of the newly retired residents are not interested in a volunteer position that takes up nearly as much time as their former occupation. Existing residents and community officials should encourage new residents to become involved in associations and bring new ideas to the community, he added.
Lower participation is also affecting clubs.
“I have seen a very large decline in people willing to volunteer to be officers in the club and also in club activities,” said resident Charles Griffith, Sun City RV Club second vice president and Lakeview Art Club member. “It seems like the younger people are not interested in clubs or the country clubs.”
That could lead to the demise of some clubs and organizations, according to resident Judith Darrh.
“I’m active with Handi-Capables of Sun City. Our membership is aged and ill and we lose members to death quite often,” she said.
The club’s ranks are not getting filled by younger people, she added.
“This is the sort of organization that will dwindle and struggle with a younger, healthier population,” Ms. Darrh said.
Resident Martin Heller believes new residents do not respect Sun City’s foundation. He said they bring along their bad habits, like parking multiple cars in the driveways or yards, motorcycles running noisily through the neighborhoods, speeding and yards not maintained. Many new residents do not follow the CC&Rs, Mr. Heller said.
“They either did not read them or they ignore them,” he said. “Some want to change the rules to benefit their personal wants and needs, disregarding the fact that the majority want to keep the CC&Rs as they were intended.”
Other community changes include the loss of Trader Joe’s and other retail outlets in the community. Ms. Lovegrove believes this damages the quality of life people have come to expect in Sun City and hopes there are efforts to improve it.
“Some of our residents prefer to stay in the Sun City community to do their shopping as they are no longer comfortable driving on a busy street,” Ms. Lovegrove said. “What are we doing to encourage the infill of these stores?”
Ms. Lovegrove also believes there is a need to address absent homeowners and those that have aged to the point of not being able to commute from their summer homes.
“The houses look unkept, as do the yards,” she said.
Some residents are pleased with RCSC efforts to make changes to facilities to meet the changing demographics and update buildings.
“We feel that the Rec Center board has been doing a good job of updating the rec centers to meet today’s needs,” said resident Dianne Herschelman. “Despite what the complainers say, this has to be done to maintain and even increase the values of our homes.”
Mr. Worthen believes the updating program makes Sun City more marketable for new homeowners.
“The Bell center is much busier now than it was before it was redone and the Fairway center really needed work,” he said. “There are just too many other places to live with new and fine amenities.”
Resident Bill Pearson, a Sun City Home Owners Association board member, believes marketing Sun City to boomers and seniors is critical for the community’s survival.
“The problem, of course, is as the community ages will it be attractive to the younger retirees?” he asked.
He said SCHOA officials have talked about the future of Sun City and how SCHOA can shape itself regarding the influx of boomers. He said one of the main purposes of the 20-page magazine SCHOA produced was to try and attract those who are more service/community oriented.
Mr. Kent said residents, and RCSC and SCHOA officials, need to step forward to address these problems
“We have to remain a restricted community, and we have to maintain and update our amenities if we are going to attract newly retired or those near retirement,” he said. “The RCSC have made and are making some changes to fit the life style of the boomers.”
He cited the modernization and expansion of the Bell center and the rebuilding of Fairway as examples.
He said many surveys state baby boomers are looking to maintain their lifestyle after retirement.
“This may be true, however I feel there still will be a segment among them that will be looking for a place to retire that meets the same criteria my wife and I looked for 15 years ago — a vibrant, active community offering fair value housing, low property taxes, cultural events, theaters, museums, sports and other activities all within short driving distances.”
Post your opinions in the Public Issues Forum at http://www.newszap.com. Lead News Editor Rusty Bradshaw can be reached at 623-445-2725 or rbradshaw@newszap.com.
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