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Bluesman
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Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 05:46 pm |
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double deuce wrote: IN OTHER WORDS: if there was not a trainer employed at our school, then I would have to pick them up, take them to the doctor to be wrapped, and return them for practice which would be almost over.
I knew exactly what you meant and wrapping "it" is only a temporary solution to an injury, it is not a shield of armor that will prevent a further more serious injury. That's the problem in and of itself, it's about getting the athlete back into the "game" as quickly as possible.
These are high school athletes not multi million dollar professional players. The highest rate of football related injuries occurs at the high school level.
Why?????
Are we in fact sending players back into the "game" to d**n soon after an injury ?
Personally I think some are sent back in to soon. While an Athletic Trainer may do the best wrap job of anyone, they can't predict the immediate future.
They can't predict whether an athlete will sustain another more serious injury to the same area, during the remainder of the game.
Isn't it better to err on the side of the athletes safety first, than to allow them back into the game, I sure as hell hope so.
I sent you a private message to try to explain a couple of points, that might help you understand an answer to your original question. I would rather not discuss it in this forum.
Bill
Last edited on Sun Sep 21st, 2008 06:08 pm by Bluesman
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Bluesman
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Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 05:29 pm |
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double deuce wrote: Because she was 18 years old she based her decisions on what the trainer was giving her for advice.
So from the above statement, you indicate that all discussions were between your daughter and the AT. so, how would you know exactly what the AT recommended to your daughter?
and...
is that trainer still practicing? and did you bring it to the attention of the appropriate people so that no one else would have to experience what you did
That's a pretty far stretch to assume that...... Both my wife and I were present at all our daughters games. Furthermore, I was present at all the practices. Both my wife and I asked the trainer questions, which I had previously stated that "we specifically asked if she should have X-Rays".
We as parents can only advise our children what to do once they reach the age of 18 and we did advise her to go for X - Rays, she didn't unfortunately.
Obviously Athletic Trainers make mistakes, this one did.
The ONLY mistake our daughter made was not going to an orthopedic specialist and having it X-Rayed sooner. Adults much older make the same mistake by not seeking a second opinion, because they TRUSTED the person giving the first opinion.
Last edited on Sun Sep 21st, 2008 05:34 pm by Bluesman
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double deuce
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Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 04:24 pm |
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Because she was 18 years old she based her decisions on what the trainer was giving her for advice.
So from the above statement, you indicate that all discussions were between your daughter and the AT. so, how would you know exactly what the AT recommended to your daughter?
and...
is that trainer still practicing? and did you bring it to the attention of the appropriate people so that no one else would have to experience what you did
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Bluesman
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Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 03:37 pm |
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double deuce wrote: It would get "better" in between the games and during the off season.
That would be a signal to me (as a parent) that there is more to the injury than it appears to be. Why would you put your daughter through practices and games, if what the trainer was doing wasn't working? I don't hesitate to seek 2nd opinions if I have the least bit of doubt in regards to my child. Its better to be safe than sorry.
Because she was 18 years old she based her decisions on what the trainer was giving her for advice.
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double deuce
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Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 12:55 am |
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It would get "better" in between the games and during the off season.
That would be a signal to me (as a parent) that there is more to the injury than it appears to be. Why would you put your daughter through practices and games, if what the trainer was doing wasn't working? I don't hesitate to seek 2nd opinions if I have the least bit of doubt in regards to my child. Its better to be safe than sorry.
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double deuce
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Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 12:36 am |
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if it hadn't been for the trainer providing the services needed for my child, i would have had to pick them up, take them to our doctor for the care and then returned them to the field OR not played...get it?"
My child was injured, the trainer recommended seeing a medical professional for further consult, who in turn wrote a prescription for the trainer to provide care for my child prior to practices and games.
IN OTHER WORDS: if there was not a trainer employed at our school, then I would have to pick them up, take them to the doctor to be wrapped, and return them for practice which would be almost over.
Guess I'll have to spell things out completely next time. 
clearly you had a bad experience with ONE trainer. its not fair that just because you had a bad experience with one trainer, to down-grade all other trainers. is that trainer still practicing? and did you bring it to the attention of the appropriate people so that no one else would have to experience what you did?
Last edited on Sun Sep 21st, 2008 12:42 am by double deuce
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Bluesman
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 09:35 pm |
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double deuce wrote: I don't understand why (bluesman) you didn't take your daughter to see a physician sooner if the injury was not improving? ATC's are not physicians, but are trained in the field of sports related injuries. ATC's give their opinion as to the issue. As a parent, I wouldn't have been satisfied with the ATC's recommendation if the injury didn't show some type of improvement after having the ankle wrapped to practice and play. Not all ATC's should be grouped because of the one unfortunate incident you endured. Thats not fair to all ATC's. But I can't help to feel that the ACT was not all alone at fault in this matter.
That's priceless coming from you who initially made this comment:
" if it hadn't been for the trainer providing the services needed for my child, i would have had to pick them up, take them to our doctor for the care and then returned them to the field OR not played...get it?"
It would get "better" in between the games and during the off season. For someone who puts so much faith in the Sports Trainer as you have been arguing with me, now all of a sudden I should have questioned their judgement in our case. The AT should have never allowed her back in the game, instead the injury was wrapped tighter. The AT should have said NO, that's not my fault or my wife's.
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double deuce
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 09:12 pm |
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| I don't understand why (bluesman) you didn't take your daughter to see a physician sooner if the injury was not improving? ATC's are not physicians, but are trained in the field of sports related injuries. ATC's give their opinion as to the issue. As a parent, I wouldn't have been satisfied with the ATC's recommendation if the injury didn't show some type of improvement after having the ankle wrapped to practice and play. Not all ATC's should be grouped because of the one unfortunate incident you endured. Thats not fair to all ATC's. But I can't help to feel that the ACT was not all alone at fault in this matter.
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Lake Alum
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 08:14 pm |
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"It sounds like it may not have been handled correctly, but that is impossible for me to determine"
By this statement in itself, you can clearly see that I did not miss the point. In no way did I say she should have played or not played. I simply said that I could not make that conclusion because I did not know the history.
"You miss the whole point obviously, she shouldn't have been playing at all. The only sport she played was woman's soccer. The only time the ankle would blow up was when she played soccer. No X Rays were never recommended, on the contrary we were told no need...... she just rolled her ankle. Our daughter has a very high threshold for pain, and it's the AT's responsibility to evaluate and treat the injury. This trainers solution was to tape the ankle tighter as it swelled during the game."
Also, in no way do I think that this was the right treatment for her injury. It may have been that this athletic trainer did indeed mishandle the injury correctly. If she did, it is unfortunate. But by no means does this categorize athletic trainers as a collective group. If athletic trainers did not know what they were doing then why did the Univ. of Maryland ATC recommend you take your daughter to the hospital?
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Lake Alum
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 08:01 pm |
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In no way did I mean to diminish what your mother did, and I am sorry if that is how you took it. I was simply referring to how what she did made her and other RN's more qualified to evaluate and treat sports related injuries.
As far as taxpayers dollars I am not going get into this argument as I have stayed out of it during this whole topic.
As far as your statements about me thinking I'm providing a new service is completely inaccurate. In no way do I believe ATC's are elitist. I will be the first person to refer an athlete out to a physician or orthopedist when the case calls for it. Any person who is a professional will defend there profession when people are trying to diminish the importance of it.
As far as it seeming like there are more HS, college, and pro sports deaths now than before, you need to do research. Over the years media reporting and information sharing has increased to massively higher levels than just 15 years ago. Also, in the field of sports medicine, reporting systems have been developed and improved over the years leading to more accurate reporting of these type of deaths so that their occurance is known and measures can be taken to prevent them. Case in point, earlier this year there were articles released detailing the occurance of every kind of sports injuries including death injuries in collegiate athletics over the past 15 years. The data was obtained from a software database created about 20 years ago which is utilized by D-I, D-II, and D-III to record injury statistics.
As far as returning athletes to participation I think you must have misunderstood my intention. In no way do I believe it is important to return players as soon as possible. However, it is my concern to return them to their pre-injury level as soon as possible.
As a medical professional I appreciate your use of research statistics. However, it is important to look at more than just what is stated. You need to look at how this data was collected, when, and by who. Does the data accurately represent high schools nationwide or does it only have data from high schools of a certain region. If these statistics are not based on research done even as short as 10 years ago then they are not completely accurate and representative of current incidences. Also, I would question the use of the word "sprains" as there are many injuries that are classified as "sprains". I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference between an Acromioclavicular Ligament Sprain and an Anterior Talocrural Ligament Sprain and the treatment for each as well as the level of dysfunction that occurs with each. So for statistics categorizing injuries simply as "sprains" is very inconclusive even if it is the American Medical Association.
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Bluesman
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 07:23 pm |
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Lake Alum wrote: I'm sorry for the injury your daughter suffered. It sounds like it may not have been handled correctly, but that is impossible for me to determine being I do not know the previous history such as when pain started and what specific activities she had pain with, etc. Did the ATC recommend getting x-rays? It sounds like your daughter was still able to participate at a high enough level during games that you were not alerted that something else could be going on with her ankle. Do you recall which bone/s the stress fx's were in.
No an ATC cannot give cortisone shots. ( I hope you aren't going to use that as an argument that your daughter could have received one if she was being cared for by an RN)
I am still curious as to what orthopedic treatment an RN could provide that an ATC cannot when pertaining to an athletic injury?
You miss the whole point obviously, she shouldn't have been playing at all. The only sport she played was woman's soccer. The only time the ankle would blow up was when she played soccer. No X Rays were never recommended, on the contrary we were told no need...... she just rolled her ankle. Our daughter has a very high threshold for pain, and it's the AT's responsibility to evaluate and treat the injury. This trainers solution was to tape the ankle tighter as it swelled during the game.
As far as treatment an RN can provide that an AT can't the sound advice that returning to soon to play may cause more damage. AT's are in the business of returning players quickly to the field, and injury that hasn't healed properly doesn't make the player stronger nor does returning an athlete to the field just because they think they are ready.
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Lake Alum
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 07:13 pm |
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I'm sorry for the injury your daughter suffered. It sounds like it may not have been handled correctly, but that is impossible for me to determine being I do not know the previous history such as when pain started and what specific activities she had pain with, etc. Did the ATC recommend getting x-rays? It sounds like your daughter was still able to participate at a high enough level during games that you were not alerted that something else could be going on with her ankle. Do you recall which bone/s the stress fx's were in.
No an ATC cannot give cortisone shots. ( I hope you aren't going to use that as an argument that your daughter could have received one if she was being cared for by an RN)
I am still curious as to what orthopedic treatment an RN could provide that an ATC cannot when pertaining to an athletic injury?
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Bluesman
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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Multiple stress fractures to the ankle that were not treated other than the regiment that we were told to do by the AT. And yes we did adhere to it completely. Her ankle would swell up to the size of a small grapefruit after every game when we removed the tape and would be as purple as a ripe plum. She would collapse at least once in every game during her junior year.
When we finally went to the hospital on the advice of the University of Maryland Athletic Trainer, when she again collapsed on the field during the first scrimmage at a summer training camp at University of Maryland, we were told by an orthopedic surgeon that she had multiple stress fractures. He explained and shoed us where they had never properly healed due to continued taping and returning to play. We were advised that had treatment been received sooner she would have more than likely been able to play again. She was told that if she were to play that she would risk fracturing her ankle completely and permanently injuring it. She has permanent nerve damage in the foot and has limited feeling. The only sport she played was woman's soccer and she made All State Conference and was picked to play on the womans team that Del State has comprised of college freshman and HS seniors. She had also spoke to the University of MD scout prior to her injury because they were very interested in her and she had a 4.0 GPA.
Can an AT administer a cortisone shot ?
As far as not caring what my mother did fine. I doubt you have the intesinal fortitude to push a mans intestines back inside him and start sewing him up. That's just one of the many things field nurses did and do during the war. Keep in mind it was women like her that kept the soldiers alive in many cases the very men who put their lives on the line as my mother did to provide you with the freedom you have today.
Advanced my thinking?
When one considers the fact that ATs treat less than 3% of the HS student population in most cases, and 58% of those are sprains, it seems good taxpayer dollars are being wasted on extracurricular sports medicine that could be spent for academia.
You think that you are somehow providing some service that provided to athletes long before you were ever born, by nurses and doctors. Your elitist attitude reeks of arrogance for the professionals who came before you, and are in the medical and orthopedic field.
Why do we have more hs, college, and professional sports related deaths than ever before if Athletic Trainers are so more knowledgeable?
Obviously you feel an AT's role is to get the athlete back into the play as soon as possible, because that is what you keep expounding. Maybe quicker isn't always better, and in our daughters case it certainly wasn't. That's all the proof I need.
Using your logic I could easily say the advancements in athletic equipment since I played some 40 years ago (btw I lettered in 4 sports all 4 years of HS) has contributed greatly to reducing the number of serious injuries. That is substantiated by AMA statistics that show 58% of all high school football injuries are sprains (that is the only athletic group that a trainer is required for by law).
One question
With the academic education numbers as low as they are why should taxpayers have to foot the tab for an Athletic Trainer at the high school level ?
Last edited on Sat Sep 20th, 2008 07:13 pm by Bluesman
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Lake Alum
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 05:12 pm |
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Bluesman wrote:
[
RN's were the ones treating athletes on the sidelines long before Athletic trainers ever came along. I played sports all through jr/sr high school and graduated in 1969. They were the ones along with school doctors treating these athletes. They (RN's)still are the ones who in part treat any athlete who seeks further medical or orthopedic treatment beyond what an Athletic Trainer does.
RN's are the first line in an emergency room and they deal with trauma cases a heck of a lot more serious than the examples you have given. My mother was a Registered Nurse from 1932 - 1999 when she passed away, and as I already posted was a school nurse for 35 years. She also served as an Army nurse during WW II, treating concussions heat exhaustion, and all the rest of the horrors of a war.
We have first hand experience with erroneous advice/treatment given to us by a Registered Athletic Trainer, that caused further permanent injury to our daughters ankle to the extent she will never play soccer again. Had we gone for real medical attention she needed, instead of the R.I.C.E. treatment and tapings before every game the injury could have been dealt with properly and she would still be playing.
First of all, I have maintained a neutral stance on everything that I have read in the arguments made about athletic training. Never have I said that one person's opinions are wrong, I have merely stated background information so that you could make better informed decisions about what you think and opinions that you would receive from medical personal in today's society. However, it seems to me like you are not willing to advance your thinking if it is different from what you currently think, as evidenced from your last post. I understand that your mother may have been the qualified person to cover athletic competitions in her day, but the truth is that in today's society and with the advances in medical research and treatment, RN's are no longer the most qualified people to provide medical coverage at medical events when it pertains to athletic injuries and illnesses. I don't care if your mother did or not, or whether she was a war nurse. This in no way evidence that RN's are more qualified to cover athletic events. And like I said before, I challenge you to talk to any orthopedic surgeon or sports medicine physician and ask them whether they would be more comfortable having an ATC or a RN cover sporting events. I can guarantee that over 95% of these doctors will tell you flat out that they would rather have an athletic trainer. Also, ask if they had the chance would they refer an athlete with an injury to an ATC or an RN to perform rehab of an athletic injury. Again, every physician you talk to will say they would send this athlete to an athletic trainer or physical therapist over an RN.
"They (RN's)still are the ones who in part treat any athlete who seeks further medical or orthopedic treatment beyond what an Athletic Trainer does."
This statement in itself is inaccurate. I would like to know what this medical or orthopedic treatment would be that RN's can provide that ATC's cannot. If you can find an RN that can evaluate, rehabilitate, and return an athlete to competition quicker and at a higher level than an athletic trainer then by all means maybe you should put Lake Forest in contact with them because this person would be the best person for the job. However, the chances of this happening are slim to none.
As far as your daughters ankle goes, if you don't mind, I would like to know what her ankle injury was and what treatment she received, and how this led to further permanent injury that prevented her from playing soccer again. Also, how did you come to the conclusion that it was the ATC's fault that she can never play again? Did she follow everything that the ATC told her or did she take shortcuts like athletes commonly do? Did an orthopedic physician tell you that the reason for her dysfunction is solely attributed to the treatment she received from the ATC? Do you believe if you would have seen an RN that she would have had more expertise in treating and rehabilitating an ankle injury?
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Bluesman
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 03:19 pm |
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double deuce,
This is what should concern you as a parent.
The only school district in the state of Delaware who wanted to suspend DSTP testing in 2009 was the Lake Forest School District.
Delaware's national ranking for public schools:
National Ranking: 26/51
Advanced: 5.00 %
Proficient: 33.90 %
Basic: 77.80 %
Below Basic: 22.30 %
In regard to LFHS specifically from the latest report 2005:
Only 5% of 909 (45) of LFHS students are proficient in reading and writing.
Only 11.1% of 909 students (100) are proficient in Math.
That's what would concern me as a taxpayer and parent of a student, if I lived in your community, not that poor Johhny might not be able to see the athletic trainer because she has to teach a class.
Remember the students who don't make it in HS are the ones we will be supporting when they are on welfare because they didn't get a proper education.
Last edited on Sat Sep 20th, 2008 03:44 pm by Bluesman
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Bluesman
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:28 pm |
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double deuce wrote: the dstp scores can be blamed on gov. minner....have any of you ever seen the tests; it's stupid! why should teachers teach to the dstp, b/c their are being held accountable for these scores. therefore, they teach to the test. so why are the test scores so low, there are many reasons-my point being, how would you propose a physical education teacher to use their time teaching to help kids on the dstp? physical education, drivers ed, home ec, ag, sports medicine, etc. etc. are teachers qualified to teach in their area of expertise. they are not qualified to teach english, math, science, or social studies. SO, if Lake has used the trainer as a physical education teacher with a masters in athletic training for just that-athletic trainer, where are you taking education away from our players by using her as a trainer? she's not qualified to teach any of the core classes. I don't understand your reasoning that sports are more important to me than education.
The trainer at Lake is a very caring individual. She listens to the kids, mentors them, helps them with homework, gets calls at home from many players and their parents, has visited their homes, ate dinner with them; the players trust her and feel they can confide in her. She is truly an asset to lake forest, she cares for our kids-her players; and she brings alot more to her job because of who she is as a person.
its sad to think that all of this has come about because the district insisted she teach ONE class this year. thats bull!
If you think Governor. Minner is to blame you really don't have a clue.
Have you traveled outside the state of Delaware and seen the standardized tests in any other state. They are exactly the same as Delaware's .....the MCAS in Massachusetts, CCAS in Connecticut, they are federally mandated tests that are required by the No Child Left Behind Act.
Teachers are not held accountable for DSTP scores per se , and my wife has taught and administered the tests in MA and DE. My sister in law teaches in CT. Curriculum mapping is what dictates what an educator teaches their class, along with the DDOE. Yes teachers do "teach" to the test, (to an extent) but it is because federal school funding is based on the test scores.
All teachers other than elementary teachers are certified to teach the subject they majored in and are certified to teach. As an example my wife is certified to teach Italian, French and Spanish K-12.
This trainer could be used as a substitute teacher, (rather than spending money for someone else to come in) for any other subject at LF. The qualifications only require one to be is a high school graduate to substitute teach. During the regular school hours there is a wellness clinic and a school nurse that are available for students, and there are no sports activities other than gym class taking place. So why shouldn't this trainer be utilized more if possible in a classroom.
BTW even a phys ed teacher can take part in the administration the DSTP.
Do you really think this trainer is any different than many other teachers across Delaware or the country? There are plenty of educators who are just caring, they mentor students, help with homework, help non English speaking families, visit parents homes, have dinner with students and their families, act as confidant, and many coach.
My in laws were both college professors at Dickinson College in PA. my father in law taught International Political Science and started an overseas program in Bologna Italy. My mother in law was an Italian professor. When students were in their junior year of college they could choose to join the group of students who studied in Italy, which averaged 15-16 students. When my father in law passed away the center in Bologna Italy was named in his honor.
We just attended a reunion of their students with my mother in law and the rest of our family last Saturday in NYC. 475 former students attended including a who number of people who traveled from Europe. 10 were from the original group of 14 students who were in the first class that went to Italy in 1965.
My point there are many great educators in the field who leave a lifetime impression on their students.
What is truly sad is that you have made such a big deal out of this teacher being required to teach one class.
How do you propose that she maintain her teachers status and state certification if she doesn't actively teach?
State law requires a teacher actively teach so many hours and months a year to maintain their certification, and get step raises.
Even a long term substitute has to teach a minimum of 91 days in one school district, or a minimum of 50 hours per month over 9 months to get credit for the year, if it's a combination of districts.
Last edited on Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:30 pm by Bluesman
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Bluesman
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 12:01 pm |
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Lake Alum wrote: When it comes to comparing the qualifications of an RN and ATC there is no comparison. The areas in which each practice are two different realms. RN's main focus is to evaluate general medicine problems. An ATC's main area is with sports related injuries. The argument being made about qualifications is that an RN is not as qualified as an ATC in evaluating and treating sports injuries. If you were to ask any medical professional, they would agree that indeed an RN does not have the experience or expertise that an ATC has when it comes to evaluating and treating sports injuries. As a matter of fact any RN would probably tell you the same thing if they were honest with themselves. If you do not think this is so then I would recommend you talk to both an ATC and an RN and discuss with them how they would evaluate an athlete who has a suspected acute concussion or heat stroke and what their treatment would be and what their criteria would be before they allowed an athlete to return to competition. Yes, an RN may be more qualified to deal with general medicine problems in a clinical setting, but they are by no means as qualified as an ATC in evaluating and treating acute sports related injuries.
RN's were the ones treating athletes on the sidelines long before Athletic trainers ever came along. I played sports all through jr/sr high school and graduated in 1969. They were the ones along with school doctors treating these athletes. They (RN's)still are the ones who in part treat any athlete who seeks further medical or orthopedic treatment beyond what an Athletic Trainer does.
RN's are the first line in an emergency room and they deal with trauma cases a heck of a lot more serious than the examples you have given. My mother was a Registered Nurse from 1932 - 1999 when she passed away, and as I already posted was a school nurse for 35 years. She also served as an Army nurse during WW II, treating concussions heat exhaustion, and all the rest of the horrors of a war.
We have first hand experience with erroneous advice/treatment given to us by a Registered Athletic Trainer, that caused further permanent injury to our daughters ankle to the extent she will never play soccer again. Had we gone for real medical attention she needed, instead of the R.I.C.E. treatment and tapings before every game the injury could have been dealt with properly and she would still be playing.
Last edited on Sat Sep 20th, 2008 12:03 pm by Bluesman
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double deuce
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 06:42 am |
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the dstp scores can be blamed on gov. minner....have any of you ever seen the tests; it's stupid! why should teachers teach to the dstp, b/c their are being held accountable for these scores. therefore, they teach to the test. so why are the test scores so low, there are many reasons-my point being, how would you propose a physical education teacher to use their time teaching to help kids on the dstp? physical education, drivers ed, home ec, ag, sports medicine, etc. etc. are teachers qualified to teach in their area of expertise. they are not qualified to teach english, math, science, or social studies. SO, if Lake has used the trainer as a physical education teacher with a masters in athletic training for just that-athletic trainer, where are you taking education away from our players by using her as a trainer? she's not qualified to teach any of the core classes. I don't understand your reasoning that sports are more important to me than education.
The trainer at Lake is a very caring individual. She listens to the kids, mentors them, helps them with homework, gets calls at home from many players and their parents, has visited their homes, ate dinner with them; the players trust her and feel they can confide in her. She is truly an asset to lake forest, she cares for our kids-her players; and she brings alot more to her job because of who she is as a person.
its sad to think that all of this has come about because the district insisted she teach ONE class this year. thats bull!
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Lake Alum
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Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 05:13 am |
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| When it comes to comparing the qualifications of an RN and ATC there is no comparison. The areas in which each practice are two different realms. RN's main focus is to evaluate general medicine problems. An ATC's main area is with sports related injuries. The argument being made about qualifications is that an RN is not as qualified as an ATC in evaluating and treating sports injuries. If you were to ask any medical professional, they would agree that indeed an RN does not have the experience or expertise that an ATC has when it comes to evaluating and treating sports injuries. As a matter of fact any RN would probably tell you the same thing if they were honest with themselves. If you do not think this is so then I would recommend you talk to both an ATC and an RN and discuss with them how they would evaluate an athlete who has a suspected acute concussion or heat stroke and what their treatment would be and what their criteria would be before they allowed an athlete to return to competition. Yes, an RN may be more qualified to deal with general medicine problems in a clinical setting, but they are by no means as qualified as an ATC in evaluating and treating acute sports related injuries.
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Bluesman
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 08:40 pm |
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double deuce wrote: style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
All my children use the wellness center for physicals. Its more than a pain in the neck than I care for. you have to make appointments when they are available. They're not always readily available when needed. and no they don't treat sport related issues b/c they are done at the end of the school day. they leave when the students do.
RN's are not a substitute for athletic trainers and. AT's are MUCH more qualified than RN's. If you feel RN's are equilavent, than why do districts employee athletic trainers?
If you want personalized one on one service then spend your money not the taxpayers, or go to the emergency room or your own private physician with their underqualified RN's.
Wellness centers are provided free of charge so that all students (many who's families can't afford health care) can get the attention they need. The ones who complain the most are the ones who need the services the least. I find it very unlikely that any student who was in need of immediate medical care would be told to make an appointment, your claim is totally ludicrous.
If sport related issues/injuries only occur after school (according to your above comment) then you have no reason to be complaining that this sports trainer has to teach one class.
Obviously her services are not needed before the end of the day so there shouldn't be this conflict you claim.
RN's ( required to be a school nurse) were around and treating athletes long before the field of sports medicine/athletic trainers came along. If you think AT's are more qualified than RN's next time your child needs medical attention take them to an AT. I am not even going to begin to point out parts of an RNs duties that an AT can't (by law) even participate in.
If you feel the AT is more qualified than an RN then why does Lake and every other school employ RNs. According to you "AT's are MUCH more qualified than RN's" certainly could fill both positions and eliminate one salary.
That's no different than an educator who is licensed and certified to teach more than one subject, they only get paid one salary, even though they teach 2 subjects saving a school on an average of $35,000.00 + annually.
The bottom line is AT's can't perform many of the duties of an RN because they aren't a RN and it isn't allowed by law.
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double deuce
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 07:56 pm |
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style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
All my children use the wellness center for physicals. Its more than a pain in the neck than I care for. you have to make appointments when they are available. They're not always readily available when needed. and no they don't treat sport related issues b/c they are done at the end of the school day. they leave when the students do.
RN's are not a substitute for athletic trainers and. AT's are MUCH more qualified than RN's. If you feel RN's are equilavent, than why do districts employee athletic trainers?
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Bluesman
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 01:03 pm |
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double deuce wrote: btw bluesman, lakes wellness center does not operate after school hours. and i am not so sure that it is a total walk-in clinic for all school days and hours. i believe they are on a limited set schedule...or at least certain staff are only available at certain times/days. No diffrerent than any other school district with a wellness center and it works for them. so they obviously wouldn't be able to tend to athletes for after school issues before their practices. and if they were able to provide that kind of service, don't you think it would be less expensive for the district to utilize their services? so its my assumption that athletes cannot use the wellness center for sports related issues, so the district has to provide the services for the athletes elsewhere. My point exactly! Have you ever asked the wellness center directly if they treat or address sports related issues, or is it just more convienient to say they don't and use that as an excuse. School districts are only required to provide "athletic trainer" services for football not all athletes. Also, have you ever considered the liability involved with sports, athletes, and the schools responsibilities to provide safe and healthy environments. I believe that is where most of the issues lay in terms of trainers. It used to be that schools had to only provide a "school nurse" during all home games...
As a parent of 4 students who graduated HS I know we signed a waiver of liability just as every parent does currently who has a student involved in sports.
Some of you people posting have all but said you would sue the district if something happened to you child while they played sports. Hello............sports involves inherrently dangerous activity, and you and everyone else knows it.
As far as school nurses most are RN's (basically equivalent to a Masters degree), my mother was a school nurse for 35 years.
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Bluesman
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 12:25 pm |
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JoJo wrote: Our trainer is a good person, a fine role model and an asset to our community. The hiring of a trainer is one of the good decisions our administration has made over the years. The thinly veiled insinuations of nepotism are both baseless and tasteless.
Shame on you Bluesman - you should know better.
Enough said.
I'm not ashamed of anything I posted, nor am I some wet behind the ears naive person who doesn't know how the game is played, in the public school systems.
I'm not questioning this trainers personal ethics.
A good decision, fine role model, and asset to whom ?
The athletes, and the parents of the athletes ?
They are but a small percentage of students that attend LF, I would guess less than 10 % of the students play sports.
I've had 4 children go through the public school system, and all 4 go on to college. My wife is an educator and I served over 10 years on a school committee, so I am well aware how the system works. As a former school board committe member I am all to familiar with "nepotisim", and "favors" that are extended to former students who return to teach at the school they graduated from.
I've also become very aware of just how political the educational system is in Delaware, in many cases it's not what the teacher knows or has for an education, but who they know, that gets them hired.
Nothing personal, but when overall student scores are well below the state average for DSTP I don't see where hiring a "sports trainer" is an asset in a public school (not just Lake but any school). It is a waste of educational funding that could be spent more appropriately. If Lake wants a fulltime sports trainer (which isn't required by law other than for football) let the school district themselves foot the tab from their own local taxbase.
The day of using the excuse that many of these students would drop out if not for the sports is unacceptable.
We aren't in the 19th and 20th centuries anymore, I would think parents would want more for their children and their education.
Last edited on Fri Sep 19th, 2008 12:42 pm by Bluesman
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Bluesman
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 12:07 pm |
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double deuce wrote: i am well aware of the dstp scores in the lake forest school district. those scores and the trainer have nothing in common. if she teaches, then she teaches sports medicine or physical education. that particular area is not on the DSTP........MAYBE Lake should concentrate on why they have had such a big turn over in teachers in the last 5-6 years. and what subject areas are being affected by this rather large turnover.......
Athletics isn't on the DSTP either. There is no state approved curriculum for sports medicine. Athletics isn't going to put food on these students tables after they graduate a good quality education is.
How many students from Lake have gone on to play at the professional level, or even received full scholarships to colleges or universities based on their academic and athletic abilities?
Why the turnover ? Because athletics comes first at Lake not education. What subject areas are being affected is pretty apparent by the test scores.
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JoJo
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 04:15 am |
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Our trainer is a good person, a fine role model and an asset to our community. The hiring of a trainer is one of the good decisions our administration has made over the years. The thinly veiled insinuations of nepotism are both baseless and tasteless.
Shame on you Bluesman - you should know better.
Enough said.
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double deuce
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 03:31 am |
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| btw bluesman, lakes wellness center does not operate after school hours. and i am not so sure that it is a total walk-in clinic for all school days and hours. i believe they are on a limited set schedule...or at least certain staff are only available at certain times/days. so they obviously wouldn't be able to tend to athletes for after school issues before their practices. and if they were able to provide that kind of service, don't you think it would be less expensive for the district to utilize their services? so its my assumption that athletes cannot use the wellness center for sports related issues, so the district has to provide the services for the athletes elsewhere. Also, have you ever considered the liability involved with sports, athletes, and the schools responsibilities to provide safe and healthy environments. I believe that is where most of the issues lay in terms of trainers. It used to be that schools had to only provide a "school nurse" during all home games... Last edited on Fri Sep 19th, 2008 03:49 am by double deuce
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double deuce
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 12:12 am |
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| i really don't see the relevance of the DSTP scores and the reason why the athletic trainer is teaching one class this year. thats what this post is about; parents concerns with the athletic trainer.
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double deuce
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Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 12:07 am |
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| i am well aware of the dstp scores in the lake forest school district. those scores and the trainer have nothing in common. if she teaches, then she teaches sports medicine or physical education. that particular area is not on the DSTP........MAYBE Lake should concentrate on why they have had such a big turn over in teachers in the last 5-6 years. and what subject areas are being affected by this rather large turnover.......
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Bluesman
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Posted: Thu Sep 18th, 2008 07:59 pm |
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yes you do have your right to your opinion. It's to bad sports indeed is more important to you than the education of students. What this person is possibly earning could easily be used more wisely for a real educator, teaching curriculum that is DDOE approved.
More wasteful spending for a select few who benefit from the trainers services. The same services that used to be provided by a school doctor or nurse, and we all did just fine.
The DSTP scores for Lake tell the story quite clearly test score results have been dipping well below the state level average. That must be why LFSD wanted to suspend the DSTP testing, for this academic school year.
Lets look at the DSTP scores for 10 th grade students @ Lake Forest
Reading
state average 73%
LFSD
2004 -72%
2005 - 74%
2006 - 64%
2007 - 64%
Writing
state average 66%
LFSD
2004 - 82%
2005 - 79%
2006 - 66%
2007 - 53%
Math
state average 57%
LFSD
2004 - 45%
2005 - 55%
2006 - 60%
2007 - 45%Last edited on Thu Sep 18th, 2008 08:21 pm by Bluesman
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double deuce
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Posted: Thu Sep 18th, 2008 07:30 pm |
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| you have your opinions, I have mine... LOL!
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Bluesman
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Posted: Thu Sep 18th, 2008 03:16 pm |
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double deuce wrote: the National Athletic Trainers Association is a great place!!!!! http://www.nata.org
6. FACT: An independent national board certifies athletic trainers.
The independent Board of Certification Inc. (BOC) nationally certifies athletic trainers. Athletic trainers must pass an examination and hold an entry-level bachelor’s or master’s degree to become a certified athletic trainer. To retain
certification, credential holders must obtain 75 hours of medically related continuing education credits every three years and adhere to Standards of Professional Practice. The BOC is accredited by the National Commission for Certifying Agencies.
The National Athletic Trainers Association is an organization, not unlike the Delaware State Employees Association. Of course it's great..... ...... it's all self promotion. The BOC is part of the NATA association...there is no "independent" certification board.
Independent studies not conducted by NATA show that 58% of all high school athlete injuries are simple sprains, most athletes return to play within 1 1 /2 weeks.
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Bluesman
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Posted: Thu Sep 18th, 2008 02:48 pm |
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Certified athletic trainers (ATCs) are unique health care providers who specialize in the prevention, assessment, treatment and rehabilitation of injuries and illnesses that occur to athletes and the physically active. The National Athletic Trainers’ Association represents and supports the 30,000 members of the athletic training profession. According to their statistics the national average number of High School students a trainer sees daily is about 50.
That is well below the national average of 150 students a teacher has daily, in the same number of hours.
Atypical job description from the NATA website:
Full-Time Athletic Trainer – Public High School
Job Description
Certified Athletic Trainer
• Provide “Athletic Training Services”* to student athletes under the direction of the team physician or by written referral from a physician, and in accordance with state athletic training practice act.
• Maintain appropriate general treatment orders to be reviewed annually and approved by the team physician.
• Provide athletic training services for all home athletic contests and away varsity football games. If a conflict arises between an away varsity football game and a home contest, the varsity football event will supersede.
• Act as liaison between family physicians and specialists, the school district, athletes and their parents.
• Maintain accurate records of injuries, treatments and provide insurance claim forms for sports injuries treated by a physician.
• Develop and maintain a budget for the athletic training program.
• Schedule and be present for pre-participation sports physicals.
• Provide the coaches and athletic director with a list of athletes medically eligible to compete under district and state rules and regulations.
• Assist the athletic director as requested.
*Athletic Training Services: The management and provision of care of injuries to a physically active person as defined in the state practice act with the direction of a licensed physician. The term includes the rendering of emergency care, development of injury prevention programs and providing appropriate preventative and devices for the physically active person. The term also includes the assessment, management, treatment, rehabilitation and recondition of the physically active person whose conditions are within the professional preparation and education of a certified athletic trainer. The term also includes the use of modalities such as mechanical stimulation, heat, cold, light, air, water, electricity, sound, massage and the use of thereapeutic exercises, reconditioning exercise and fitness programs.
© 2005 National Athletic Trainers’ Association
Last edited on Thu Sep 18th, 2008 02:57 pm by Bluesman
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Bluesman
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Posted: Thu Sep 18th, 2008 01:33 pm |
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He is listed in the District Office staff directory primary support staff section.
http://www.lf.k12.de.us/index.php?option=com_contact&catid=81&Itemid=136
As a taxpayer I have a right to be concerned when 80% of a teachers salary comes state funding. Wasting taxpayer dollars for non essential, non required or non DDOE approved curriculum to create someone a job is wrong period.
Athletes are students first , athletes second, and as such state approved educational curriculum should be the first and foremost goal of any public school.
Educators are leaving Lake because they are sick of the nonsense that is going on and this is just but one example. Whether I am a member of the community or the school district is irrelevant, teachers talk among themselves and there is plenty of talk about the LF district. So I am well aware of many "issues" and "situations" LF is facing.
Our daughter went to the Milford walk in wellness center (as did other athletes) plenty of times for sport related injuries, they also had their sprains wrapped by the walk in staff. LF like Milford is a walk-in clinic, appointments are made for follow up visits not initial ones, please don't try to minimize what the walk in clinic does and can do.
You are so blinded by her importance to you as a "sports trainer" that you can't see or comprehend that this woman may have to teach this year (even if only one class). This would be to maintain her status as a teacher and be compensated as such. What will happen if she possibly looses her teaching certification how will LF compensate her at the same salary.
Life isn't fair. This woman knew what she was in for, and she is reaping some pretty hefty rewards for what she does, if her salary is indeed at a teachers rate which equals out to approximately $ 350.00 a day based on number of years teaching, and degrees held, divided by 180 school days.
Why should she be treated any differently than any other teacher/professional in a public school.
Here is an example that happened this week.
At the end of school on Tuesday my wife was called to the office, when she arrived there she was greeted by a Delaware State Trooper from the Lewes barracks. The DSP needed an interperter because they had arrested 2 non english speaking individuals. They were trying to read them their rights and question them, and were having absolutely no success. Although my wife was under no contractual obligation to provide her services she felt compelled to do so and did so willingly without compensation, she spent 2 1/2 hours at the barracks that day.
BTW I have no problem making similar comments about any schoold district if there are issues. I have stated plenty about Milford as well as several other districts.
Last edited on Thu Sep 18th, 2008 02:29 pm by Bluesman
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double deuce
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Posted: Thu Sep 18th, 2008 12:29 pm |
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those are not the trainers hours this year at all. guess she hasn't had the TIME to change those hours yet! did you read the articles on her website-very informative and player/parent oriented! as far as working more hours than required; that brings us to your conscious-she feels liable for our players care and cannot always just turn her back to them and leave for the day-thats not fair to her or the players.
the wellness center has a limited schedule; most times you have to make appointments, except in emergencies. they can diagnose and write prescriptions-their jobs don't not have anything to do with an athletic trainers responsiblities-two totally different areas.
as far as her husband and the directory; i urge you to call the high school and check his status with them.
why do you care how she's paid. as far as i can tell, you don't live in the district and don't have any vested time in this community or pay taxes to Lake. she's having to teach ONE class this year; and there are concerns with how's she treated and how it affects our athletes. you obviously have no idea of the issues and situations Lake has right now. I am sure there are lots of other districts that have their issues too-go bug them!
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Bluesman
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Posted: Thu Sep 18th, 2008 11:37 am |
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FACT: In order to maintain a teaching certificate you have to be gainfully employed as a TEACHER (not a sports trainer). Teachers also have to be evaluated in a classroom environment instructing an approved DDOE course. This happens twice annually and they must receive a satsifactory rating or higher.
FACT: There are certain circumstances that can give some lienency (like if the teacher is in the military and is called up for service) not what is going on currently at LF with this trainer.
FACT: There is only one Board that approves teachers, they and only they issue educators licenses to teach (in the state of Delaware) complete with a identifying number, that is DDOE.
FACT: An educator who teaches more than one subject course is required to meet 90 hours over 5 years in each of the subject areas they teach. Teachers are also mandated by district contracts to take other certain courses which may or may not be mandated by the state board of education.
FACT: Sports medicine is not a curriculum course approved by the State of Delaware Education system.
FACT: With the current budget cuts to the education system creating a job for a former alumni that isn't even teaching in general and/or teaching a non recognized DDOE curriculum course is wrong.
FACT: LF has a wellness center (this is right from LF website): "The High School has a Wellness Center which provides free comprehensive medical, mental health, and nutritional services." as well as a registered nurse on duty. Both departments more than likely have just as much qualification (if not more) than an athletic trainer.
Is LF a school where children go for an education or is it a psuedo health care clinic ?
These are the posted hours from the LF "Sport trainers" page within the LFHS website:
Athletic Medicine Office Hours
10:30 am -6:00 pm on days without HOME Events
1:30 pm -9:30 pm On Days with Home Events
So as I stated way back in the beginning this is a bogus teaching position created to cover the salary for a returning alumnus as "fulltime" sports trainer (not required by Delaware law)
This person just so happens to be a former student of Lake Forest and is married to someone else employed by the district. As far as what the husband teaches, again the position you claim he has doesn't jive with what the state has him classified as, nor is he listed in the LF teacher directory.
Lake treats this woman badly ?
The posted hours worked are required by contract, and state law governing teachers. She isn't being forced (nor can she be) to put in any more hours than any other staff member.
Last edited on Thu Sep 18th, 2008 12:17 pm by Bluesman
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double deuce
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