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Fred
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 02:25 pm |
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Playing the Game wrote: Is that why you spend the money to send your children to private school Fred?
Fred wrote:
I have a prediction...that charter schools, while well meaning, will not prove to be consistantly better or worse then public schools. Private schools, when adjusted for income and involvement of parents, will show similiar results.
What will happen, I suspect, is that the pay cut will be less then the 8%. They will figure a way to make it less, but the money has to come from somewhere....
I sent my kids to private school for a variety of reasons, as you probably can relate to. I would be a liar if I did not say that I was torn when it came time to send Junior to school.
I think charter and private schools are better, in some ways, then public schools, but I also think the academic results are not as different when you start considering level of parental involvement, parent's income, etc. I DO think that some private schools provide a better base that provides an easier time at the next level, be it high school or college.
And, for the record, the kids will be going to public school next year.
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Luvpug002
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 12:44 pm |
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Teachers will not lose just 8%. We will lose anywhere from 13%-25% of our income~ why, because we have earned incentive programs the state offered in order for us to maintain a "highly qualified" status or our certificates to teach in our profession. It is EARNED income that the state can now say, "We can't afford to pay you that anymore."
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Luvpug002
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 12:36 pm |
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I'm so sorry your wife lost her job! That is awful and I'm sure it puts a huge burden on your family. In comparison, I'm sure 8% seems like nothing. We all have personal circumstances and so many people have situations that are dire.
Teachers are making a stink because it will not be an 8% cut for them. We are in serious danger of losing earned pay incentives of 3-15% in addition to the 8%. So, with the lost of 2% in benefits premiums and the loss of other earned income and a pay cut, many teachers will be losing anywhere from 13% to 25% of their pay. This is far cry from the "across the board 8% pay cut for all state workers" that is discussed in the paper.
Personally, I will lose 16% of my state salary. With that kind of loss, I will also lose my home. My frustration with any pay cut is that there are other options to closing the deficit gap. Other solutions should be created and discussed before putting Delaware employees in the poor house.
Thanks for listening and understanding~
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dover-diva
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 12:20 am |
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Luvpug002 wrote: Actually in his budget proposal the Governor wants to increase welfare benefits.
Now why should any working person want or need to pay for someone who will not get a job? The nanny state, on all levels, is the sucking sound that is in the background. Pay attention people. If those who are unionized and think that their benefits , outweigh the the wrath of the rest of the workers, then there will be a revolution. I don't know what kind, but, I do know that I am not really in the proper frame of mind to give a d**n.
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Luvpug002
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 11:02 pm |
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Actually in his budget proposal the Governor wants to increase welfare benefits.
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ghostposter
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 09:33 pm |
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I assume your calculation is actually not hours but man-hours since there are fewer than 18,722 hours in a year. If we divide that number by the number of days in the school year we arrive at 104 man-hours per day. That sounds impressive but we must account for the number of teachers. Assuming there are 50, that is 2 hours a day per teacher.
You get every holiday in the federal calender and then summers. If you choose to earn extra money, that is great. If not, you have a nice extended break.
I am not saying I have no sympathy, 8 percent is tough on everyone.
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tspong
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 08:37 pm |
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Copied below is a letter to the editor submitted to the Delaware State News. You can post your opinions by clicking on "Reply."
18,722 hours. This is the total number of hours the staff at W.T. Chipman Middle School work above and beyond a normal school day in a single school year.
If papers need to be copied, assignments graded, parents called, students tutored, and sometimes transported home after being tutored, we fulfill our duties. If events need to be chaperoned, lessons planned, labs set up, and meetings attended, we fulfill our duties. If field trips need to be planned, award ceremonies organized, and assignment accommodations made, we fulfill our duties. We do this outside of school hours and without additional pay. On average, our teachers commit between 8 and 16 hours weekly above and beyond actual instructional time in the classroom.
A side note: We are salaried employees. We get a specific yearly compensation for a contracted amount of days and hours. We do not get "paid to have summers off." We are required to come to school on snow days or make them up at the end of the year. Our pay is for meeting contractual obligations within our district. Most teachers elect to have their salary paid all year in order to keep a stable income. Ask around this summer — many of your local seasonal employees are educators supplementing their income.
$650.00. This is the average amount of money a teacher at W.T. Chipman spends on general school supplies, office and organizational supplies, classroom rewards, classroom decorations, snacks, teaching materials, and books for classroom libraries. Although educators receive a $250 tax credit, that still leaves a total out of pocket expense of $400.00. This figure does not include the thousands of dollars paid for additional university coursework, conferences, seminars and the travel associated with these activities.
Our job is to raise functional, well rounded citizens who leave school with the thinking skills and core knowledge to become responsible, contributing members of society. We do this while balancing our own lives, walking a fine line with parents, and planning lessons we hope that students will take some responsibility to engage themselves in. We volunteer our personal time away from our families and donate our salary back to our schools because we have a responsibility to fill in the gaps for items that are not in the budget.
So yes, we oppose an 8% salary cut. We are not ungrateful for our jobs, but we will continue to voice our opinions in order to support each other. We will do this by assembling peacefully and petitioning our legislators. These are the rights that we have — you can thank a Social Studies teacher if you were aware of our ability to assemble and petition our government.
Corryn Barnes
Lincoln
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Two Cents
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Posted: Sat May 23rd, 2009 02:40 am |
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| I would far rather take a pay cut and keep my jobm and the benefits that go with being employed. I know that for some of the people who will take pay cuts it is very inconvenient, but measured against the pain of losing one's job, it's laughable. Take the 92% of your pay knowing that at least in the foreseeable future, you are still gainfully employed.
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Doodlebug
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Posted: Sat May 23rd, 2009 02:33 am |
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| This talk about pay cuts for teachers is nothing...my spouse is a school paraprofessional and has LOST her job! Her school has eliminated all parapros. When you put into perspective, an 8 % cut is nothing.
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Playing the Game
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Posted: Wed May 20th, 2009 12:08 pm |
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Is that why you spend the money to send your children to private school Fred?
Fred wrote:
I have a prediction...that charter schools, while well meaning, will not prove to be consistantly better or worse then public schools. Private schools, when adjusted for income and involvement of parents, will show similiar results.
What will happen, I suspect, is that the pay cut will be less then the 8%. They will figure a way to make it less, but the money has to come from somewhere....
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Hartlyboy
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Posted: Wed May 20th, 2009 04:15 am |
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Fred wrote: I have a prediction...that charter schools, while well meaning, will not prove to be consistantly better or worse then public schools. Private schools, when adjusted for income and involvement of parents, will show similiar results.
You might be wrong about the charter school results because what I've seen is a marked difference in parental involvement in the case of the kids who get into charter schools. The parents are interested, sometimes rabidly so, about having their kid get a good education and it shows in the attitude of the students. It's a no-brainer that the public schools would be vastly improved and teaching in them so much more rewarding if that element [parental involvement] was present. The mental ability and family income of the student isn't near as important as having the parents [or parent in the case of today's enlightened society] involved in what the student is doing.
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Fred
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Posted: Wed May 20th, 2009 01:55 am |
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I have a prediction...that charter schools, while well meaning, will not prove to be consistantly better or worse then public schools. Private schools, when adjusted for income and involvement of parents, will show similiar results.
What will happen, I suspect, is that the pay cut will be less then the 8%. They will figure a way to make it less, but the money has to come from somewhere....
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tspong
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Posted: Tue May 19th, 2009 09:12 pm |
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Copied below is a letter to the editor submitted to the Delaware State News. You can post your opinions by clicking on "Reply."
I have a prediction.
The Peoples General Assembly will capitulate to the ultra powerfull, self serving D.S.E.A. and one of the most expensive, underacheiving public school systems in America will continue with its failed public "education" policy for which the people will continue to be taxed and the children will continue to pay the price for this failed system. New laws will be introduced and inacted to protect this system by preventing children from exiting failed public schools and flocking to superior private, home and charter schools.
Hopefully, I will be proven wrong and the ball and chain of manditory public "education" will be removed from the children so that they might find total academic freedom in order to compet in the "New World Order" (President Bush 41 — the father) other wise they will only be qualified to be serfs when the world changes.
This letter is not directed to the D.S.E.A. controled Peoples General Assembly, but rather to the many good public school teachers:
You are not the servents of the corupt D.S.E.A. — instead you may of your own free will join with those of us who want to change public "education" which has become nothing more then government indoctrination.
Fred Allen Bass
Dover
Last edited on Tue May 19th, 2009 09:53 pm by tspong
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Born Country
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Posted: Tue May 5th, 2009 08:35 pm |
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Hartlyboy wrote:
This might not be the time to test that 17% more pay theory. There are MBA's delivering pizzas now...
I agree. I'm talking about creating a 10% income tax increase on teachers to solve the DE spending/loss of revenue problem. I thought we all agreed long ago that this solution won't be temporary. I believe the gov. is failing to see the forest for the trees on this one and it's going to hurt more than teachers. I admit I signed up for a candidate who I thought shared my belief that the economy, education and environment are the ticket to prosperity for all in DE. Companies already don't want to locate here b/c of our education system. That's in spite of the favorable taxes we always brag about. It tells me that these companies and the people they wish to hire really value education as a key component of their ability to prosper in DE. I stongly believe this short sighted decision by our governor is compromising our long term economic goals and it will affect all of us even though many don't realize it yet in this heated moment. I find it tragic and ironic to hear our governor speak of the need to get serious now about solving our education deficit in order to build our economy at the same time he proposes a hefty 10 % teacher tax increase. We can test and test and test some more, but if we fail to attract and retain great teachers- DE will continue to be an education joke. I'm not unsympathetic to the MBA delivering pizzas or anyone else who has been laid off or taken a pay cut. Further demise of our education reputation will not help any of these folks get back to work for a livable wage in DE and I thought that was the goal.
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Bill Christy
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 08:01 pm |
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Fred from my knowledge those numbers are incorrect and the teachers making the salaries cited are in the minority of the overall group of teachers as a whole. My wife has been teaching 7 years this year and still has not broke into the 50K range, with a dual Masters. With the 8-10% proposed budget cut she will be roughly loosing 3 years worth of raises.
I am comparing apples to apples not a teacher versus an accountant or a scientist. As a court interperter using the same knowledge and skills in linguistics she could be earning roughly $12,000.00 a year more than she currently earns.
What benefits do teachers get that is so great, health insurance a pension plan? So don't many other people who are employed. If anyone thinks teachers are in the education field to get rich or for the benefits they are foolish, teachers get into the profession because they love what they do. Personally They couldn't offer me enough money to put up with the nonsense I have seen my wife go though with school administration, parents and students.
Last edited on Mon May 4th, 2009 08:03 pm by Bill Christy
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Fred
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 07:34 pm |
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The data I've got
http://www.aft.org/salary/2007/download/SalarySurvey-DE.pdf
http://www.theapple.com/careers/articles/7515-average-teaching-salaries-by-state-2007-2008
Point to an average salary closer to my figures then the 30K starting salary. Now, I admit that I am not sure what they mean by "average", or who it all includes, but I think it is a good comparision point.
I don't think teachers are underpaid, and the 9-10 months they are in class can be tough. Shoot...I'll even give you that good dedicated teachers give up their own time for planning, or to help kids out. All of that being said, there are benefits to being a teacher, which makes comparing it to an accountant on the outside world a bit tricky.
I am firmly convinced that IF you are going to cut state salaries, you need to do it pretty much across the board. If you want to get a bit cute and cut high salaried owners an extra percent or two to save those at the bottom a cut, AND you can figure out a way to equalize the pay differential at some point....go ahead, but I foresee issues where John gets 30K from the state and gets a 5-8% pay cut and Jerry, who gets paid 29K, winds up getting paid more because they started out getting paid less.
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Bill Christy
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 07:14 pm |
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Fred 17% more is not a whole heck of a lot of money, $5,100. more based on a $30,000. annual salary. The proposed cuts on the same salary are $3,000.
Court interperters earn at entry level close to $60,000.00 while an entry level teacher with the same qualifications in language might earn $34,000.00 to start. The pay raises given teachers for advanced degrees is just as misleading when all is said and done it equates out to about .21 cents an hour more in pay. Last edited on Mon May 4th, 2009 07:18 pm by Bill Christy
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Fred
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 04:24 pm |
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| Please don't use the 17% figure. While I support teachers and will defend the salaries they get, comparisions to the private sector are at best, misleading. Even the education figure is disengenuous....other then specialty type occupations (science, for instance) there are very few places where simply getting an advanced degree gets you an automatic pay raise. Yes, the education may give you skills to get the better job, but you still have to use those skills to get the job, not granted higher pay solely on the fact you completed the degree.
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Bill Christy
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 01:37 pm |
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log out wrote: I say cut the pay of all state and federal workers.
I say if you can do the job better and for less money then feel free to do it.
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log out
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 01:33 pm |
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| I say cut the pay of all state and federal workers.
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Mendavor
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 01:04 pm |
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If there is one group that requires nationalization it is the education group. All teachers should be in one national organization so that all children are taught equally and will have the same results. A better educated child ready to enter the workforce in a selected field chosen by the government according to society's needs. This will ensure that there is no overpopulation of one field of study that may not be in demand as opposed to a field that is in need of a workforce. Then there will be no competition to overshadow the required needs of the people. The one thing that was successful in the Soviet system was education. The average high-schooler spoke at least two languages and often three or more.
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Bill Christy
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 12:19 pm |
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Hartlyboy wrote: Bill Christy wrote:
They already earn on an average 17% (+/-) less nationally, then if they took a job in another field with the same qualifications.
This might not be the time to test that 17% more pay theory. There are MBA's delivering pizzas now and I'm not aware of anyone asking for teachers [or anyone] to come work for them.
Actually the courts are screaming for help and if anyone has been employed in a field that is similar they could probably get hired. My wife gets called at least 3 times a week either by DSP or one of the other police departments near us to interpert for them. She also gets calls from the courts in our area, for the same thing.
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Hartlyboy
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Posted: Mon May 4th, 2009 03:15 am |
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Bill Christy wrote:
They already earn on an average 17% (+/-) less nationally, then if they took a job in another field with the same qualifications.
This might not be the time to test that 17% more pay theory. There are MBA's delivering pizzas now and I'm not aware of anyone asking for teachers [or anyone] to come work for them.
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Bill Christy
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Posted: Sun May 3rd, 2009 12:16 pm |
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log out wrote: Good cut their pay by 25%.
Why?
They already earn on an average 17% (+/-) less nationally, then if they took a job in another field with the same qualifications.
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curious reader
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Posted: Sat May 2nd, 2009 05:03 pm |
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freespeech wrote: I'd like to be introduced to the teachers that make 60k or 70k. I have a Master's Degree and I don't.
Fred wrote:
How many levels of administration are there, really?
What does a teacher make....60 or 70K? I think there are some "department heads" in some area, but in any case, you still have assistant principals. I tend to think that there responsibility should be equated to higher salary....so they make something like 90K?
My high school had 5 Vice Principals...and the Principal was probably paid in relation to what they got paid, which is to say he got more. Probably in the 110s by today standards....
Now, given as there probably should be some (probably not as many as there are, but there are still some needed) assistant superintendents, they should get paid more than the principals, right? And at the top level, he or she should make a bit more, correct?
I am all for consolidation, I am all for cutting positions, but realize that salary structure is built from the bottom up. I make more than the people who work for me, and my boss makes more than me. I don't see why public education should be any different.
I found one Delaware School District Salary and Benefit Information: http://www.smyrna.k12.de.us/employmentopportunities/salariesbenefits.html
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Zymergy
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Posted: Sat May 2nd, 2009 05:02 pm |
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Does the 8% reduction include those on welfare since they are paid by the state? How about if you are already on welfare and have another kid? Lets stop paying welfare recipients to have more kids. Welfare should also be limited to no more than 1-2yrs, after that your on your own.
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curious reader
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Posted: Sat May 2nd, 2009 03:54 pm |
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| Teacher's salaries by state: http://teacherportal.com/salary/delaware-teacher-salary
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Born Country
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Posted: Sat May 2nd, 2009 02:34 am |
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Playing the Game wrote: You sound bitter.................
He does, doesn't he?
Log out- do you have children?
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freespeech
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Posted: Sat May 2nd, 2009 01:39 am |
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I'd like to be introduced to the teachers that make 60k or 70k. I have a Master's Degree and I don't.
Fred wrote:
How many levels of administration are there, really?
What does a teacher make....60 or 70K? I think there are some "department heads" in some area, but in any case, you still have assistant principals. I tend to think that there responsibility should be equated to higher salary....so they make something like 90K?
My high school had 5 Vice Principals...and the Principal was probably paid in relation to what they got paid, which is to say he got more. Probably in the 110s by today standards....
Now, given as there probably should be some (probably not as many as there are, but there are still some needed) assistant superintendents, they should get paid more than the principals, right? And at the top level, he or she should make a bit more, correct?
I am all for consolidation, I am all for cutting positions, but realize that salary structure is built from the bottom up. I make more than the people who work for me, and my boss makes more than me. I don't see why public education should be any different.
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Playing the Game
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Posted: Sat May 2nd, 2009 01:07 am |
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| You sound bitter.................
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log out
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Posted: Sat May 2nd, 2009 12:55 am |
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| Good cut their pay by 25%.
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 09:42 pm |
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I am not making this up !!!!!! wrote:
But isn't it cheaper to live in Delaware than in some of the states included in your stats?
Sorry I missed you at the bottom of all that! The answer is yes and no. Depends where you live b/c the states surrounding us are larger and more diversified. Something else to consider is location near family. If we recruit to fill positions now b/c those states are full of baby boomers, when they do retire -family is a big draw to stay closer to home. It concerns me.
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 08:23 pm |
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Fred wrote: Do you at least acknowledge how many other areas that cuts are being made?
I know the salary issue is a big one, but it HAS to be. We are talking 1500 employees worth of cuts (not the numbers I was using earlier).
I am one who has defended state workers pretty consistently on this site, even those making (to some) the "extravagant" salaries...and am convinced that to many of these people, extravagant is defined as "making more money then they are, or ever hope to make."
I acknowledge that other cuts are being made.
I want care to be exercised with the pay cuts, not a quick "across the board", now what's next on the list? It takes a lot of guts and moxy for the governor to say that some jobs are more important than others right now, and I know I'm not going to make friends by saying it here. DOE needs to cut now. There are people writing policy up there who were inept in the classroom. That's never acceptable and it's the reason teachers are begging to get them off their backs. It is time to let them go. I'm sure they are not the only ones. While I do admire hard work, there is a difference between hard work and effective work. We need effective work right now. Many of these departments could function just fine with furloughs. That gives those people an opportunity to pick up work elsewhere. If they are too vital to furlough, then yes, I think cuts should be made elsewhere to pay them.
Do you defend the governor's fuzzy dishonest math regarding his own pay cut? Don't you think that was the first public test of his character? Do you think he has earned the workers trust? Isn't it possible that some of the ferocity of this debate would subside a little if they felt their leader was sincere and with them? Did he not set the precedent of "everybody but me."
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 08:01 pm |
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Fred wrote: I don't think he is thinking short term, but the budget shortfall for this year IS, by defination, a short term problem.
What you seem to want is someone to come up with a magic wand that will push the problem off on others. I don't want ANY pay cut, but I haven't heard of alternatives to make up for the amount we are talking about....and, there are and will be other cuts in other parts of the budget other then salary, so this isn't the only cuts that Markell has suggested. Realize this is "only" 91 million of the cuts he has suggested. He wants to convert convert fixed holidays to "floating" holidays (saving a million by cutting overtime costs), reducing vacant and seasonal funding, closing some museums, eliminating agencies....he IS doing a lot, and maybe he cand do more, but this isn't the only way he is trying to reduce the deficit.
Fred, you've said before in another forum that you don't believe this pay cut is temporary either. That is not long term thinking for education being vital to economic growth. I believe in retirement incentives and attrition. I believe in furloughs and some layoffs. In the private sector I've met numerous people over the years who were offered voluntary layoffs for a set period of time. Can't we even examine that possibility just to get a feel for what may be out there? You say "wave a magic wand... push problem on others..." I say set your priorities and make hard choices. If education is vital to our economy, then yes, pay the teachers and cut elsewhere. Or, ask the governor to stop selling me that line and admit it's not the priority he's been advertising.
FYI: the average DE teacher salary when the pay cut goes into effect will be @ $49,000. Some of those people are supporting families and paying off student loans on less. I know people w/ Masters degrees and added responsibilities that don't make the $60-70k number you guessed earlier. Everyone I talk w/ assumes they do.
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Fred
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:49 pm |
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Do you at least acknowledge how many other areas that cuts are being made?
I know the salary issue is a big one, but it HAS to be. We are talking 1500 employees worth of cuts (not the numbers I was using earlier).
I am one who has defended state workers pretty consistantly on this site, even those making (to some) the "extravagant" salaries...and am convinced that to many of these people, extravagant is defined as "making more money then they are, or ever hope to make."
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:38 pm |
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curious reader wrote: I am not making this up !!!!!! wrote: Born Country wrote: If you want to provide these gov't discounts and vouchers, why not just pay them? Why will they be more "dedicated" w/ a voucher?
These would not require higher taxes, a salary increase would.
Does "Born Country" want a tax increase, sounds like it.
I want to lose the "one size fits all" thinking and prioritize our values, like we all do with our budget at home. If DE economy continues to falter b/c companies are choosing to locate in other states due to our education system, it's bad for all of us. Long term- Jobs continue to leave DE. The economy continues downward. The next generation of our best and brightest kids can't find a job in DE anymore and have to move out of state to work. The brain drain begins. Now only low wage jobs want to locate in DE b/c folks will "appreciate" them here. Standard of living continues on a downward trend. Now the kids who are left in DE often can't get full time work and are laid off as much as they're on. They start signing up for gov't assistance in increasing numbers. Standard of living continues downward for all. Kids keep leaving and you end up with a state full of retirees needing benefits and low wage service jobs for the second home crowd at the beach. These scenarios have already played out in other parts of the country. Are we signing up for this? I didn't say spend money on everything. I said prioritize if we hope to achieve prosperity.
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Fred
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:33 pm |
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I don't think he is thinking short term, but the budget shortfall for this year IS, by defination, a short term problem.
What you seem to want is someone to come up with a magic wand that will push the problem off on others. I don't want ANY pay cut, but I haven't heard of alternatives to make up for the amount we are talking about....and, there are and will be other cuts in other parts of the budget other then salary, so this isn't the only cuts that Markell has suggested. Realize this is "only" 91 million of the cuts he has suggested. He wants to convert convert fixed holidays to "floating" holidays (saving a million by cutting overtime costs), reducing vacant and seasonal funding, closing some museums, eliminating agencies....he IS doing a lot, and maybe he cand do more, but this isn't the only way he is trying to reduce the deficit.
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:16 pm |
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Somebody has to pay the cost of lost revenue and the expenses you've listed. Don't we pay taxes so that people can have food stamps and gov't housing vouchers? If we put more people on gov't programs, don't we pay for that? Isn't that what all the fuss about entitlements is about?
I am not advocating for a salary increase at this time. I am advocating for not cutting teacher pay 10% at this time when our President and others agree that teacher salaries need to increase if we hope to recruit the best and brightest into the profession. I am asking our Governor not burden our state with an indefinite handicap toward achieving the stated "economic goal." I am not making this up !!!!!! wrote:
Born Country wrote: If you want to provide these gov't discounts and vouchers, why not just pay them? Why will they be more "dedicated" w/ a voucher?
These would not require higher taxes, a salary increase would.
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curious reader
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:09 pm |
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I am not making this up !!!!!! wrote: Born Country wrote: If you want to provide these gov't discounts and vouchers, why not just pay them? Why will they be more "dedicated" w/ a voucher?
These would not require higher taxes, a salary increase would.
Does "Born Country" want a tax increase, sounds like it.
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:05 pm |
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laughingoutloud wrote: Strike? Are you kidding? How exactly would that benefit the students?
It won't benefit students in the short term and I do hope this breakdown in communication doesn't come to that. It is indicative of the fact that people are not feeling acknowledged or heard in a meaningful way by this administration. I think Markell is being very short sighted about the long term effect this pay cut will have on our students. When we already struggle to recruit and retain skillful teachers in certain districts and fields, the reduced salary and bad rep. will only make things worse. If education is so "vital" to economic recovery, why are we setting ourselves up to not attract the best teachers? He should not have rolled out a hatchet when it came to pay cuts. He lost sight of his long term goals and it's going to end up costing our children and our economy.
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I am not making this up !!!!!!
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:02 pm |
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Born Country wrote: If you want to provide these gov't discounts and vouchers, why not just pay them? Why will they be more "dedicated" w/ a voucher?
These would not require higher taxes, a salary increase would.
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I am not making this up !!!!!!
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:00 pm |
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Born Country wrote: If you want to provide these gov't discounts and vouchers, why not just pay them? Why will they be more "dedicated" w/ a voucher?
I've been doing some homework. The last stats I found were 2006-07. DE ranks last in the Mid Atlantic region for average teacher pay. We are 12th overall, we fell from 11th last year and 10th the year before. With the pay cut, we will fall to 21. (That communicates mediocrity to me.) We will fall 11 slots behind the next closest Mid Atlantic competitor. At the same time I've already posted on one of these forums that CBS news reported the states surrounding us expect to retire between 45-50% of their teachers in the coming 4 years. That's a lot of people! Why are we setting ourselves up for a competitive disadvantage when education is so "vital" to the health of our DE economy as the Gov. states?
curious reader wrote:
Zymergy wrote: curious reader wrote: After reading this forum several questions have come to my mind. When a person decides to go to college to get a degree to become a "public school" teacher is there any thought in their mind that they will become rich? Do they have blinders on about what their salary might be? Don't they know that they might run into pitfalls along the way concerning pay raises? This is nothing new, folks!! If you enter a bull pen of your own free will, don't whine about the bull chasing you after you get in there.
So you agree that reducing teacher salaries equates to a lesser chance that future college students will choose the teaching profession there in reducing the quality of the teachers which in turn reduces the education of today's youth. You basically are telling teacher not to complain since they chose their profession.
Look at this another way......
Why can't we do this to the Health Care system also. Lets make a State Law that says Dr.'s and nurses can only make a salary of 75k and 35K and no more so that we can reduce the cost of health care in the state. Would you want to go to any hospitals after the mass exodus of all the Dr's and nurses. Do you think such a law would help or devastate the quality health care in the state. Think about it!
Thank you, I was waiting for your reply. We would need DEDICATED professionals. Perhaps incentives would work like the following discounts for education and health care professionals who live and work in Delaware.
income tax discounts
motor vehicle fee discounts
real estate tax discounts
grocery store vouchers
help with student loans
But isn't it cheaper to live in Delaware than in some of the states included in your stats?
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 06:49 pm |
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Fred wrote:
However...what do you think a Republican governor would have done....or, better yet, what will the next Republican candidate going to say about the pay cut? That they would have raised taxes? That they would have cut specifically cut something else?
I can tell you what Republican mayor Rudy Giuliani did. Instead of the hatchet approach, he decided to ask hard questions about values. He decided education and police protection were too important to cut back. Then he proceeded through the rest of the budget, asking hard questions and making cuts. He earned a lot of praise for having revitalized that city.
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 06:40 pm |
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If you want to provide these gov't discounts and vouchers, why not just pay them? Why will they be more "dedicated" w/ a voucher?
I've been doing some homework. The last stats I found were 2006-07. DE ranks last in the Mid Atlantic region for average teacher pay. We are 12th overall, we fell from 11th last year and 10th the year before. With the pay cut, we will fall to 21. (That communicates mediocrity to me.) We will fall 11 slots behind the next closest Mid Atlantic competitor. At the same time I've already posted on one of these forums that CBS news reported the states surrounding us expect to retire between 45-50% of their teachers in the coming 4 years. That's a lot of people! Why are we setting ourselves up for a competitive disadvantage when education is so "vital" to the health of our DE economy as the Gov. states?
curious reader wrote:
Zymergy wrote: curious reader wrote: After reading this forum several questions have come to my mind. When a person decides to go to college to get a degree to become a "public school" teacher is there any thought in their mind that they will become rich? Do they have blinders on about what their salary might be? Don't they know that they might run into pitfalls along the way concerning pay raises? This is nothing new, folks!! If you enter a bull pen of your own free will, don't whine about the bull chasing you after you get in there.
So you agree that reducing teacher salaries equates to a lesser chance that future college students will choose the teaching profession there in reducing the quality of the teachers which in turn reduces the education of today's youth. You basically are telling teacher not to complain since they chose their profession.
Look at this another way......
Why can't we do this to the Health Care system also. Lets make a State Law that says Dr.'s and nurses can only make a salary of 75k and 35K and no more so that we can reduce the cost of health care in the state. Would you want to go to any hospitals after the mass exodus of all the Dr's and nurses. Do you think such a law would help or devastate the quality health care in the state. Think about it!
Thank you, I was waiting for your reply. We would need DEDICATED professionals. Perhaps incentives would work like the following discounts for education and health care professionals who live and work in Delaware.
income tax discounts
motor vehicle fee discounts
real estate tax discounts
grocery store vouchers
help with student loans
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curious reader
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 05:59 pm |
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Zymergy wrote: curious reader wrote: After reading this forum several questions have come to my mind. When a person decides to go to college to get a degree to become a "public school" teacher is there any thought in their mind that they will become rich? Do they have blinders on about what their salary might be? Don't they know that they might run into pitfalls along the way concerning pay raises? This is nothing new, folks!! If you enter a bull pen of your own free will, don't whine about the bull chasing you after you get in there.
So you agree that reducing teacher salaries equates to a lesser chance that future college students will choose the teaching profession there in reducing the quality of the teachers which in turn reduces the education of today's youth. You basically are telling teacher not to complain since they chose their profession.
Look at this another way......
Why can't we do this to the Health Care system also. Lets make a State Law that says Dr.'s and nurses can only make a salary of 75k and 35K and no more so that we can reduce the cost of health care in the state. Would you want to go to any hospitals after the mass exodus of all the Dr's and nurses. Do you think such a law would help or devastate the quality health care in the state. Think about it!
Thank you, I was waiting for your reply. We would need DEDICATED professionals. Perhaps incentives would work like the following discounts for education and health care professionals who live and work in Delaware.
income tax discounts
motor vehicle fee discounts
real estate tax discounts
grocery store vouchers
help with student loans
Last edited on Fri May 1st, 2009 06:09 pm by curious reader
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 05:54 pm |
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curious reader wrote: After reading this forum several questions have come to my mind. When a person decides to go to college to get a degree to become a "public school" teacher is there any thought in their mind that they will become rich? Do they have blinders on about what their salary might be? Don't they know that they might run into pitfalls along the way concerning pay raises? This is nothing new, folks!! If you enter a bull pen of your own free will, don't whine about the bull chasing you after you get in there.
I am asking, is this good enough for our kids? In Governor Markells "vision", quality education plays a vital role in building our economy by attracting companies to our state. If teachers are the vital ingredient in school and parents are the most important factor in a child's success, shouldn't we as parents insist that DE attracts the best teachers? Do we really want last pick? Do we really want the state to become filled with "starter" teacher schools? Is this the best economic/education vision we can come up with? I don't have the exact statistic for you off hand, but the trend is for new teachers to leave the profession w/in 5 years. That's not factoring in these proposed pay cuts or anything. It just is. When this flat tax earns a poor reputation amongst members of the profession, won't it discourage the best people from applying and taking their chances with DE politics? Would you if you had other options?
I don't think someone enters the profession to become rich. They do hope that if they are frugal, they will be able to pay their bills. The talented ones who are aware that this isn't an "easy life" filled with holidays and summer vacations, the ones who want to make a difference are decreasing in number and it's a problem for our kids. When being frugal is no longer enough- as this drastic flat tax will make it for many of these folks- they are going to start wanting out too. They have to feed their own families first and I can understand that. Too much is simply too much. Fighting for a raise in salary that is comparable to others with similar education requirements is one thing. Losing 10% of a teachers salary is quite another.
I think what you are referring to as "whining" at the moment, I am calling "standing up for my values." I really value education. Teachers played a vital role in my life and I am grateful. I want my kids to have great teachers too. And, I want my kid to learn that it is important to stand up for your values.
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Zymergy
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 05:35 pm |
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curious reader wrote: After reading this forum several questions have come to my mind. When a person decides to go to college to get a degree to become a "public school" teacher is there any thought in their mind that they will become rich? Do they have blinders on about what their salary might be? Don't they know that they might run into pitfalls along the way concerning pay raises? This is nothing new, folks!! If you enter a bull pen of your own free will, don't whine about the bull chasing you after you get in there.
So you agree that reducing teacher salaries equates to a lesser chance that future college students will choose the teaching profession there in reducing the quality of the teachers which in turn reduces the education of today's youth. You basically are telling teacher not to complain since they chose their profession.
Look at this another way......
Why can't we do this to the Health Care system also. Lets make a State Law that says Dr.'s and nurses can only make a salary of 75k and 35K and no more so that we can reduce the cost of health care in the state. Would you want to go to any hospitals after the mass exodus of all the Dr's and nurses. Do you think such a law would help or devastate the quality health care in the state. Think about it!
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curious reader
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 05:18 pm |
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| After reading this forum several questions have come to my mind. When a person decides to go to college to get a degree to become a "public school" teacher is there any thought in their mind that they will become rich? Do they have blinders on about what their salary might be? Don't they know that they might run into pitfalls along the way concerning pay raises? This is nothing new, folks!! If you enter a bull pen of your own free will, don't whine about the bull chasing you after you get in there.
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 04:51 pm |
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Fred: This conversation is going on several places. I'm attempting to pull this together here and continue the conversation. Thanks. BC Born Country wrote: Fred wrote:
That being said....do you really think that teachers are somehow special in being excluded from the salary cut?
Gov. Markell is mistaken if he believes he has a mandate from me to pursue his budget proposal b/c I voted for him. President Obama endured a considerable vetting process thanks to two formidable opponents. In doing so, he was forced to defend the best and worst of his ideas, in addition to publicly experiencing numerous tests of character. Whether or not I agree with him, I cannot say he has surprised me yet since taking office. By comparison, Governor Markell produced a brochure before taking office. He was never really forced to answer the all important question, "How?" I am only now getting to know the real Jack Markell, and I'm not impressed with his leadership or this first glimpse of a "plan" for accomplishing his vision. In NO way do I condone what the DE dem. party did by endorsing Carney pre-primary, but now it does make me wonder what they knew about Markell that I did not? I will gladly vote Republican in the next election if that's what it takes to check Governor Markell. I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER would have voted for a candidate who actually supports cutting teacher salaries! It's short sighted and damages the stated "vision". Cutting salaries doesn't inspire competition to fill teaching positions with outstanding individuals. The long term cost is not worth the short term gain. Bad Governor!
Fred: A Governor who states again yesterday that short term cuts must not compromise long term goals + that education is "vital" should not be cutting teacher salaries 10% w/ no timeline for return or reembursement. I know math/science teachers with masters degrees who are very involved after school w/ our children and now need a 2nd job to make ends meet. Before pay cuts, I've met math teachers who realized they can make more money working at the beach than they did in the classroom. Today Obama reenforced that teacher salaries need to increase if we hope to recruit talented, skilled people into the classroom. He reenforced that teachers are the single most important ingredient within the school system. He favors fair teacher accountability and merit pay, as do I and the great teachers I know. It's a steady, consistent message. Markell's message to teachers is not. It's a step backwards in recruiting highly qualified candidates to even want to apply for jobs in DE or pursue certification here. I don't want the last pick in the recruitment line who doesn't appreciate the amount of work required to succeed in this occupation. I want the best! He used a hatchet with his pay cut proposal. I expect serious, detail oriented thought for serious times.
It will continue getting harder to draw A and B students into the profession if salaries do not change to reflect the current demands of the classroom. Mediocre students might actually think that teaching would be "awesome" for the holidays. A and B students are very aware these days that they have far more lucrative options available to them for their college debts- and they might actually be able to afford to go somewhere on vacation! They'll do their "good deeds" some other way. Teacher pay is tied to social history. It was a job a "woman can do." When we already have hard to staff schools in the state, it's quite possibly one of the most ridiculous ideas I've ever heard to cut teacher salaries across the board! There are years when this state has graduated one math teacher and there have been 3 openings in one school alone. It doesn't do much in the way of ensuring that an outstanding candidate who truly cares about doing a great job will even apply to teach my child. It does nothing to ensure that a math teacher from another state will relocate here to teach my child either. But, hey, maybe sometime after my kid graduates, they'll get it all sorted out.  Last edited on Fri May 1st, 2009 04:57 pm by Born Country
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Born Country
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Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 04:43 pm |
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Last edited on Fri May 1st, 2009 04:52 pm by Born Country
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