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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 12:15 am |
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Mendavor wrote:
First of all I don't think God approves of your lifestyle and therein is the problem.
You sir , are the biggest hypocrite. You use "GOD" (you did NOT say YOUR God). You are a half-baked wanna-be. Sprew your trash- you gave yourself away.
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Mendavor Member

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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 11:47 pm |
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curious reader wrote: Jennifer9999 wrote: Where on your marriage "license" does it say covenant? I like that phrase though, it sounds better than domestic partnership or civil union. Maybe us gays can have a movement for "covenant of life" instead of marriage. That could solve the problem. Let the straights have marriage, we'll take that, as long as it gives me my rights.
My family realizes high costs and sacrifices the same as any other. We pay the same type of bills, pay the same in gas, oil, electricity, clothing and food as everyone else. We've had to cut back on things just like the rest of Delaware. I am facing a pay cut just like the other state workers. Where is my compensation for committing myself to a relationship?
I was married by an ordained minister in a religious ceremony, couldn't have a legal one anyway. I AM married in the eyes of my God, my family, friends and co-workers.
I don't see how that affects anyone else's life. No one asked me permission to marry their husband or wife so why do I have to ask strangers for their's? Let the government give us our rights, we work for them the same as you.
I don't think those against gay marriage weaken my family, I just don't think I need to take my daughter's innocence away from her just yet. She's only a child and society already ages them before they are ready, I don't need to help that happen.
Are you your daughters natural parent?
First of all I don't think God approves of your lifestyle and therein is the problem. Too much emphasis is placed on the foolish notions of mystical beings weaving their fantasies in and out of religion. While I have no objections to your lifestyle, nor do I object to whatever you want to call your union, I do object your reliance on religion. Lenin called it the Opiate of the masses. Ideally, in a Socialist state, you can live as you desire freely. Have patience and you will see President Obama open more pathways for you and all homosexuals and lesbians. Freedom is at hand.
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curious reader Member
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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 11:22 pm |
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Jennifer9999 wrote: Where on your marriage "license" does it say covenant? I like that phrase though, it sounds better than domestic partnership or civil union. Maybe us gays can have a movement for "covenant of life" instead of marriage. That could solve the problem. Let the straights have marriage, we'll take that, as long as it gives me my rights.
My family realizes high costs and sacrifices the same as any other. We pay the same type of bills, pay the same in gas, oil, electricity, clothing and food as everyone else. We've had to cut back on things just like the rest of Delaware. I am facing a pay cut just like the other state workers. Where is my compensation for committing myself to a relationship?
I was married by an ordained minister in a religious ceremony, couldn't have a legal one anyway. I AM married in the eyes of my God, my family, friends and co-workers.
I don't see how that affects anyone else's life. No one asked me permission to marry their husband or wife so why do I have to ask strangers for their's? Let the government give us our rights, we work for them the same as you.
I don't think those against gay marriage weaken my family, I just don't think I need to take my daughter's innocence away from her just yet. She's only a child and society already ages them before they are ready, I don't need to help that happen.
Are you your daughters natural parent?
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Two Cents Member
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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 09:04 pm |
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Jennifer9999 wrote: Where is my compensation for committing myself to a relationship?
Let the government give us our rights, we work for them the same as you.
Is not the living with your love, and enjoying the consortium of that relationship sufficient compensation? What additional compensation do you believe to be due?
About the government giving you your rights -- what rights would you propose be given? Not being critical, because I believe people should generally live their lives as they choose, but I don't believe that we should think in terms of entitlement, either.
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Jennifer9999 Member
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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 08:08 pm |
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Where on your marriage "license" does it say covenant? I like that phrase though, it sounds better than domestic partnership or civil union. Maybe us gays can have a movement for "covenant of life" instead of marriage. That could solve the problem. Let the straights have marriage, we'll take that, as long as it gives me my rights.
My family realizes high costs and sacrifices the same as any other. We pay the same type of bills, pay the same in gas, oil, electricity, clothing and food as everyone else. We've had to cut back on things just like the rest of Delaware. I am facing a pay cut just like the other state workers. Where is my compensation for committing myself to a relationship?
I was married by an ordained minister in a religious ceremony, couldn't have a legal one anyway. I AM married in the eyes of my God, my family, friends and co-workers.
I don't see how that affects anyone else's life. No one asked me permission to marry their husband or wife so why do I have to ask strangers for their's? Let the government give us our rights, we work for them the same as you.
I don't think those against gay marriage weaken my family, I just don't think I need to take my daughter's innocence away from her just yet. She's only a child and society already ages them before they are ready, I don't need to help that happen.
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davidlanderson Member

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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 07:39 pm |
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I disagree. Marriage is not a contract. It is a not a business proposal. It is a covenant of life between the sexes.
If you thought there would be hordes of angry people, you would have been pleasantly surprised. There wasn't one on either side. BTW was that quote over the top. Yes, it was. The world won't end either way.
I agree that you should not have brought your daughter if you did want her exposed a point of view which you believed would weaken your family. That is your right as a parent. I wish people on your side would respect that in the push for changing school curriculum.
Best wishes to you and your family.
Last edited on Thu May 28th, 2009 07:43 pm by davidlanderson
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Jennifer9999 Member
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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 06:31 pm |
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It's a shame more supporters were not in attendance. I could not be there because I did not want to expose my daughter to what I knew was going to be a long meeting full of angry opposition. I did not want her to listen to people tell her that something is wrong with her family. And yes, my child has a father whom she see every other weekend. She is not deprived.
Allowing same sex couples to marry will not cause the end of society. Many gay couples now have children, some have more than heterosexual married couples. Does society punish married couples who do not have children?
Allowing same sex couples to marry will not spark a rise in taboo couples wanting to marry. Interfaith and interracial couples were once considered taboo but they were still afforded the opportunity to marry.
People who quote the Bible for their own purposes have not read it with the heart of a Christian. You cannot fall back on Old Testament rhetoric and call yourself a Christian. Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, who never once called out a group of people for hatred. He preached love or all.
Marriage is a legal contract between two people. Yes there is an element of love and the possibility of children. But there is no guarantee of either. Look at the divorce rate.
I simply don't understand why there are so many people against same sex marriage.
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tspong Member
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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 03:38 pm |
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What do you think?
From the Delaware State News:
Gay marriage proposal mostly under fire
Majority oppose Dover panel’s measure to allow same-sex unions
By Bruce Pringle
Delaware State News
DOVER — A proposal in support of same-sex marriage drew heavy opposition Wednesday night.
Most speakers in a public hearing before Dover Human Relations Commission urged the withdrawal or rejection of a resolution calling on city officials to push for extending the right to marry to homosexual couples.
Many said gay marriage would victimize children who would grow up without a father or a mother, depending on the gender of the couple with whom they lived. Others said it would threaten the very survival of mankind if it became widespread. A number cited the Bible as the source for their opposition.
"This world is on its way to destruction if you allow this to pass," Stephen Wilson, who described himself as an 18-year-old active church member, testified. "It’s wrong, and it’s absolutely from the enemy."
Only three speakers favored the resolution, which was authored by Commission Chairman Samuel B. Hoff.
It states "all citizens of Dover should be able to engage in legal matrimony, irrespective of sexual preference" and urges City Council and Mayor Carleton E. Carey Sr. "to take a stand in support of gay marriage as a human right and to advocate for passage of a law permitting gay marriage in Dover and throughout the state of Delaware."
Mike von Reider, one of the resolution’s few supporters who spoke, recommended an amendment, replacing "irrespective of sexual preference" with "irrespective of gender." Being straight or gay, he said, is not a result of preference but of an orientation that cannot be changed.
"I can no more become heterosexual than you could choose to be gay," he said.
Some 150 people, including speakers from as far away as Millsboro and Wilmington, packed the City Council chamber for the 90-minute hearing, with many in attendance forced to sit on the floor or stand.
A number of speakers noted the civil nature of the proceeding, which often included applause but never produced boos or catcalls.
Mr. Hoff was applauded by part of the audience when he concluded the hearing by calling it a "beneficial and positive exercise in democracy."
Earlier, some speakers questioned whether it is indeed democratic to allow decisions on matters such as same-sex marriage to be left in the hands of legislators. They called for a referendum on the question.
The testimony delivered Wednesday is to be considered by the commission June 24 when the panel is expected to debate and vote on the resolution.
David Anderson, an opponent of the resolution who formerly served on the commission, cautioned the current commissioners that they could undermine the commission’s "institutional integrity" by supporting a resolution that does not appear to reflect the values of the community.
Shaun Fink of Millsboro warned that society would face staggering costs for tax breaks, health care and other benefits if marriage is extended not only to gays, but to others who would demand the right to marry, including threesomes.
The commission’s hearing came a day after the California Supreme Court upheld a voter-enacted state ban on gay marriage. The court said California couples still have the right to civil unions.
In New Hampshire Wednesday, the state Senate agreed to negotiate a compromise with the House on a bill that would legalize gay marriage there. New Hampshire Gov. John Lynch opposes gay marriage but decided to view the issue "through a broader lens" and sign a legalization bill that protected churches and their employees from lawsuits if their beliefs preclude them marrying gays.
New Hampshire would join Iowa, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont and Maine in allowing same-sex marriage.
In Rhode Island, a Brown University poll, released Wednesday, found 60 percent of registered voters in that state would support a law allowing gay marriage. Bills to accomplish that are in committees in both the chambers of the Rhode Island legislature.
A Delaware statute defines a union of man and woman as the only valid marriage. Same-sex marriage has not often been directly addressed by state lawmakers since that legislation was enacted. But the possibility that gay marriage will be legalized in the state often is cited as a reason to scuttle proposals to outlaw discrimination based on sexual orientation in matters such as employment.
Such a proposal, House Bill 5, passed the Delaware House this year, but was rejected by a Senate committee. It is the latest on a years-long string of House-approved gay rights measures that have not come to a vote before the full Senate.
The Associated Press contributed to this article.
Staff writer Bruce Pringle can be reached at 741-8233 or bpringle@newszap.com.
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Mamamia Member
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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 04:53 am |
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| GEEZ, David, you got any aspirin to go with that.
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davidlanderson Member

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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 03:12 am |
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Here is my view in testimony submitted to the commission.
Mr. Chairman and Commissioners,
Thank you, for the opportunity to address this body since I was mentioned by name in a letter to the editor by a member, I decided to personally make my case.
I am concerned that the resolution before you though well intentioned is based upon a flawed premise. It is based upon the belief that love is something to be legislated and in the absence of legislation there is some sort of injury. I am sympathetic to the historic proscriptions often found in law against homosexual couples. However the recognition of marriage as a mixed sex institution which ensures the stable continuation of humanity, is not one such proscription. We did not recognize marriage even before written history because it was the only way people could love one another. We did it because a married family takes on a unique responsibility for all of us by committing to form a stable family. That family unit continues to be the basis of civilization in societies of all different religions, ethnic groups, and geographic locations. Marriage unites humanity. In spite of some differences, it is a mixed gender institution recognizable around the world.
The reason certain “benefits” are given is not to reward one group of people over all others. It is not to idealize love. It is to compensate for the high cost and sacrifice realized by families. Since society benefits to the degree of its very survival in its current form based upon the family, recognizing the contribution of people who make a lifelong commitment to children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren is not unreasonable. Since humanity is dependent upon the procreation celebrated by marriage, enshrining its unique and noble status into law is only natural.
People should be free to choose their relationships, and they are. I believe there is a difference between demanding legal recognition of a relationship and allowing people to choose with whom they have relationships. Recognizing a person’s right to choose does not mandate a right to recognition. The Supreme Court of the United States already addressed this issue in Lawrence v, Texas.
“The statutes do seek to control a personal relationship that,
whether or not entitled to formal recognition in the law, is
within the liberty of persons to choose without being punished
as criminals.
This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts
by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship
or to set its boundaries absent injury to a person
or abuse of an institution the law protects. It suffices for
us to acknowledge that adults may choose to enter upon
this relationship in the confines of their homes and their
own private lives and still retain their dignity as free
persons. Another issue is does homophobia enter into a person’s position on marriage? It can. If someone has an intense distrust of homosexuals, then obviously that person would not favor same sex marriage. My personal view is that the mere holding of that view does not make a person “homophobic”.
Margaret Sommerville who is known to be for laws favoring gay rights, wrote the following in a court brief in Canada:”Recognizing that a fundamental purpose of marriage is to engender respect for the transmission of human life provides a corollary insight: Excluding same-sex couples from marriage is not related to those people’s homosexual orientation, or to them as individuals, or to the worth of their relationships. Rather, the exclusion of their relationship is related to the fact that it is not inherently procreative, and, therefore, if it is encompassed within marriage, marriage cannot institutionalize and symbolize respect for the transmission of life. To recognize same-sex marriage (which is to be distinguished from same-sex partnerships that do not raise this problem) would unavoidably change and eliminate this function of marriage. ”
She further stated:”Being against same-sex marriage is frequently alleged by proponents of same-sex marriage to be proof of homophobia (See “Same-sex hearings rife with ‘gay- bashing,’ critic says”, Globe and Mail, 11 March, 2003, A6). A useful comparison can be made with people who take the view that being against infant male circumcision (IMC) is proof of anti-Semitism. (I, personally, have been subject to both sets of allegations in the public square.)
The strategy adopted in both cases is to shame those who are against same-sex marriage or IMC into silence. The choice of language and framing of the issues is carefully crafted to achieve this result. (See William Eskridge, who has articulated important insights in this respect, through his analysis of the techniques used by identity-based social movements to place courts in the position that they see their only alternatives in reaching a decision as being either to find discrimination or to believe that in not doing so they would be approving of discrimination and themselves engaging in it. In the same vein, see Halpern et al v. Canada and arguments considered by the judges.) “
Respectfully Submitted
David Anderson
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ghostposter Member
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 08:23 pm |
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None the less; Under what criteria should they be denied marraige? Assuming they agreed to surgically insure no children, they would then be in the same position gays are in. They aren't prohibited from getting married but they may not marry whom they would choose. Who could deny them? Why? How are taboos against incest any different from taboos against homosexuality?
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Fred Member

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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 04:21 pm |
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Diva is partly right....
http://www.delmarvanow.com/article/20090513/DW01/905130368/-1/DW
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ghostposter Member
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 01:52 am |
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| The Cheif of Clerks did not say step-sister and brother, he said brother and sister. I imagine he would have made the distiction if it were not blood relations.
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 12:22 am |
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| Are we sure that they were "blood" relatives or were they adopted ??
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ghostposter Member
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 09:41 pm |
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The head of the Delaware clerks of court was recently on 1410 am and stated that sussex had a case where a brother a sister applied to be married. Perhaps the Human Rights Commission should have a resolution in support of that. Aren't their rights also being infringed upon since they were turned away? They were apparently of age, loved each other and consented, isn't that now supposed to be the only criteria involved?
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Fred Member

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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 05:02 pm |
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What a Crock wrote: Please read the last paragraph in the following article. Doesn't it mean that the Dover Human Relations Commission does not have the power to propose resolutions.?
The commission will have the power to review city programs for inclusiveness and make recommendations to City Council. It also can investigate "inter-group conflicts and disputes," but it does not have the enforcement power of the state Human Relations Commission.
I don't see why they couldn't make a recommendation to City Council for such a resolution, do you?
I think you'd get more traction if you argued the merits as to what such a proposal actually accomplishes...except giving Sam Hoff a bit larger soapbox to stand on.
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What a Crock Member
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Posted: Mon May 25th, 2009 03:21 am |
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dover-diva wrote: What a Crock wrote: dover-diva wrote: Playing the Game wrote: So what is a "Y" marriage resolution?
I wouldn't hold my breath while "WAC" gets his reply together. Re: my brains (WAC)- I have forgotten more than YOU ever knew.
Why would I reply? The question wasn't addressed to me, it's up to the person who wrote the topic "Y marriage" to reply.
GROW UP !!!!! You are OUT of your league. ( And you did reply, cause you have a need to be the one) .
I did not reply to "Playing the Game" I replied to you.
You need to lay off whatever it is that you are on. Go throw up, maybe that will help.
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Mon May 25th, 2009 02:24 am |
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What a Crock wrote: dover-diva wrote: Playing the Game wrote: So what is a "Y" marriage resolution?
I wouldn't hold my breath while "WAC" gets his reply together. Re: my brains (WAC)- I have forgotten more than YOU ever knew.
Why would I reply? The question wasn't addressed to me, it's up to the person who wrote the topic "Y marriage" to reply.
GROW UP !!!!! You are OUT of your league. ( And you did reply, cause you have a need to be the one) .
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What a Crock Member
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Posted: Mon May 25th, 2009 02:17 am |
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dover-diva wrote: Playing the Game wrote: So what is a "Y" marriage resolution?
I wouldn't hold my breath while "WAC" gets his reply together. Re: my brains (WAC)- I have forgotten more than YOU ever knew.
Why would I reply? The question wasn't addressed to me, it's up to the person who wrote the topic "Y marriage" to reply.
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Mon May 25th, 2009 02:02 am |
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Playing the Game wrote: So what is a "Y" marriage resolution?
I wouldn't hold my breath while "WAC" gets his reply together. Re: my brains (WAC)- I have forgotten more than YOU ever knew.
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Playing the Game Member

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Posted: Mon May 25th, 2009 12:47 am |
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| So what is a "Y" marriage resolution?
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What a Crock Member
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Posted: Sun May 24th, 2009 11:48 pm |
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dover-diva wrote:          Can't come up with something other than my own words. This cracks me up ..
Just trying to tell you to "PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH" but you apparently don't have the brains to pick up on that.Last edited on Mon May 25th, 2009 01:22 am by What a Crock
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Sun May 24th, 2009 11:03 pm |
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         Can't come up with something other than my own words. This cracks me up ..
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What a Crock Member
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Posted: Sun May 24th, 2009 03:00 am |
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dover-diva wrote: Well, why don't YOU come to a conclusion? Is it difficult??
It seems to me that you really have a major problem about persons that you feel don't see the world thru your biased eyes and have the same prejudicies. I suggest you watch the movie "American Beauty". It is quite revealing.
Dave- I do believe that FDR married his cousin.
If YOU have a problem, then, go to another topic. FINIS!!!!!
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Sun May 24th, 2009 02:24 am |
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Well, why don't YOU come to a conclusion? Is it difficult??
It seems to me that you really have a major problem about persons that you feel don't see the world thru your biased eyes and have the same prejudicies. I suggest you watch the movie "American Beauty". It is quite revealing.
Dave- I do believe that FDR married his cousin.
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What a Crock Member
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Posted: Sun May 24th, 2009 02:01 am |
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Please read the last paragraph in the following article. Doesn't it mean that the Dover Human Relations Commission does not have the power to propose resolutions.?
Tuesday, 09 April 2002
Dover City Council embarked on a new commitment to racial harmony Monday night, establishing a 15-member Human Relations Commission designed to bring the city's diverse population closer together.
"I know our future will be a challenge," Mayor James L. Hutchison Sr. told the newly appointed commissioners. "We can and will make a difference."
City Council decided to create the commission after racial tension flared in Dover in March 2001 when a black man died in police custody.
Those tensions seemed nearly forgotten Monday, as the commission members smiled and posed for pictures after the unanimous vote.
Hutchison later gave the members a pep talk, telling them that he and Council President William P. McGlumphy will call the group together soon so the commission can begin work. No meeting date was set.
Bishop Marion Lott, president of the Concerned Clergy and Citizens Coalition, said city officials "did an excellent job of selecting [the members]. It's very inclusive."
Lott's wife, Renora Lott, is one of the 15 appointees.
The coalition mobilized during the tense days and weeks after Reginald L. Hannah died during a police traffic stop. An autopsy later showed Hannah had a lethal level of cocaine in his blood.
Although the commission membership includes people from a variety of backgrounds, Lott said officials were unable to find someone from the Hispanic community to serve. Hispanics comprise 4.1 percent of Dover's population.
Councilman Eugene B. Ruane called it "a rainbow commission" that will serve everyone in the city.
The commission will have the power to review city programs for inclusiveness and make recommendations to City Council. It also can investigate "inter-group conflicts and disputes," but it does not have the enforcement power of the state Human Relations Commission.
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Playing the Game Member

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Posted: Sat May 23rd, 2009 10:37 pm |
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| I don't know David, what if gay 1st cousins want to marry? Sounds like a court test in Iowa or New Hampshire or Massachusetts.
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davidlanderson Member

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Posted: Sat May 23rd, 2009 06:53 pm |
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How can Dr. Hoff say this has anything to do with equal rights? Same Sex relationships do not serve the same purpose nor have the same responsibilities and sacrifices demanded of married families. It would be an unequal proposition to say that the minor offsets we give to married families to compensate for the enormous sacrifices made to raise children should be given to any group of people is mind boggling.
Dr. Hoff wants to legislate on the basis of love according to the resolution. We don't do that. 1st cousins may love each other but we don't recognize any marriage between them. Why not? We are recognizing what is the best for the continuation of humanity as a civilization.
Recognition has little to do with rights, but with the responsibilities that are taken on by married couples to build a family.
Last edited on Sat May 23rd, 2009 06:54 pm by davidlanderson
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Fred Member

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Posted: Tue May 19th, 2009 04:11 pm |
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| I think it is an exercise in futility...certainly gets people's attention, though.
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tspong Member
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Posted: Mon May 18th, 2009 04:40 pm |
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What do you think?
From the Delaware State News:
Gay marriage resolution set for debate
Dover Human Relations panel to take up topic in coming meetings
By Bruce Pringle
Delaware State News
DOVER — In a week in which a limited gay-rights bill was defeated in a Delaware Senate committee, the presentation of a resolution favoring gay marriage may seem like an exercise in futility.
"I don’t look at it that way," said Samuel B. Hoff, chairman of Dover Human Relations Commission, which will consider such a resolution in coming meetings. "We’re talking about a civil right and, more basic, a human right" that should be recognized.
Mr. Hoff is the author of the resolution, which declares "all citizens of Dover should be able to engage in legal matrimony, irrespective of sexual preference." The document urges City Council "to take a stand in support of gay marriage as a human right and to advocate for passage of a law permitting gay marriage in Dover and throughout the state of Delaware."
In an interview Friday, Mr. Hoff emphasized the resolution may not have the support of many of his fellow commissioners.
"It’s a very sensitive, very controversial issue," he said. "I don’t know what my colleagues’ actual position on it is. I haven’t pushed to find out their views."
Fear of eventual legalized marriage by homosexual couples has helped fuel opposition to measures such as House Bill 5, which would prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in housing, employment, public works contracting, public accommodations and insurance. The bill was approved in the state House of Representatives this year, but failed to gain enough votes Wednesday to be released from a Senate committee.
Similar House proposals also have died in the Senate in recent years.
Mr. Hoff’s resolution is "exponentially more advanced" than those bills, he said.
"People a century from now, in my opinion, are going to be shaking their heads and asking, ‘What took so long for equal rights?’" he said.
Attempts Friday afternoon to reach Dover activists on both sides of the gay-rights issue were unavailing.
Mr. Hoff likened the legalization of gay marriage in Delaware to other developments that once were widely viewed as unlikely, such as the dismantling of the Berlin Wall and the end of South African apartheid.
New Hampshire Gov. John Lynch said Thursday he will sign a bill to make his state the sixth to legalize gay marriage after state legislators amend the proposal to better protect churches and their employees against lawsuits if they object to marrying gays.
Dover residents can make their feelings about gay marriage known in a public hearing scheduled for the 7 p.m. Wednesday, May 27, meeting of the commission at City Hall. Comments will be limited to three minutes per person and one hour total, according to the meeting agenda.
The commission is to return to the subject at its monthly meeting in June.
"Our goal on the 27th is to get input, then at our June meeting have a commission debate and discussion on it," Mr. Hoff said.
Staff writer Bruce Pringle can be reached at 741-8233 or bpringle@newszap.com.
If you go
Public hearing on a resolution advocating the legalization of gay marriage
During 7 p.m. May 27 monthly meeting of Dover Human Relations Commissioners
City Hall, 15 E. Loockerman St.
Agenda: cityofdover.com.
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