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okeegator
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 11:22 pm |
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conjeel wrote: Okeegator:
Its very complex, but can be explained... the elements were created in supernovas... hydrogen condensed under gravity to form suns.. rocky planets from iron and the elements... hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water... amino acids and proteins from nitrogen, oxygen, carbons, etc.... you can actually create amino acids in the laboratory, you know.
And it goes on from there...
It certainly wasn't some invisible man floating in the sky who snapped his fingers.
And if it was..... who created him??
And how was the supernova "created" ?
And to your last question, that's what I would like to know!
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 11:20 pm |
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Okeegator:
Its very complex, but can be explained... the elements were created in supernovas... hydrogen condensed under gravity to form suns.. rocky planets from iron and the elements... hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water... amino acids and proteins from nitrogen, oxygen, carbons, etc.... you can actually create amino acids in the laboratory, you know.
And it goes on from there...
It certainly wasn't some invisible man floating in the sky who snapped his fingers.
And if it was..... who created him??
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okeegator
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 11:16 pm |
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conjeel wrote: okeegator:
How do you explain the origins of a Maserati? Was it created from whole cloth? One day there were no cars and then all of a sudden the next day there's a Maserati? Answer: No... everything we have today was built incrementally... you start primitive and you get more sophisticated bit by bit by bit, building on previous structures.
Nature works the same way... evolution works over a long long period of time.. small incremental changes that over a long period of time add complexity and sophistication.
There's no other way. Snap-your-fingers creation makes no sense.
Sorry for the simple analogy -- I know with religious types I need to proceed very simply, else you'll not understand it.
And who built the Maserati incrementally? It didn't build itself.
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okeegator
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 11:12 pm |
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conjeel wrote: okeegator:
How do you explain the origins of a Maserati? Was it created from whole cloth? One day there were no cars and then all of a sudden the next day there's a Maserati? Answer: No... everything we have today was built incrementally... you start primitive and you get more sophisticated bit by bit by bit, building on previous structures.
Nature works the same way... evolution works over a long long period of time.. small incremental changes that over a long period of time add complexity and sophistication.
There's no other way. Snap-your-fingers creation makes no sense.
Sorry for the simple analogy -- I know with religious types I need to proceed very simply, else you'll not understand it.
Don't be so dismissive. I wasn't questioning evolution. So I will ask my question again: How do you explain the origins of life/the universe? In other words, how did it begin?
Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 11:13 pm by okeegator
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 11:06 pm |
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conjeel wrote: Firefly:
You deny that Christians used to torture people? You ever hear of the Spanish Inquisition? How about the Salem witch trials? Torture of heretics is very well known, very well documented, and went on for 1,500 years... The church burned people at the stake until it was abolished in the late 1700s. You can look it up. Christians were persecuted in the early years.... once we became the dominant religion starting in the 400s or so, we did all the persecuting -- throughout Europe and the Americas. It's very well documented. So, as you say... learn your history.
And by the way, Hitler was NOT an aetheist. That's just a convenient myth. You can read his speeches on line. You can read "Mien Kampf" He was a Christian all the way baby... he considered the killing of the Jews to be carrying out the wishes of the Lord.... you can look it up.
Congeel I never denied that Christians led by the Church didn't torture.I am fully aware of the Spanish inquisition and the Salem witch trails . (You have to remember there was three great divisions of Christendom ,Protestant ,Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic and then latter Martin Luther all had differences.)These atrocity's was caused by church leaders who took it upon themselves to dictate to the people what the word of God was, you didn't go against the church especially the catholic church it wasn't until people were allow to own Bibles that they saw things were not as the Church's would have them believe and finally could decide for themselves and had freedom of religion.King James Bible wasn't out until early 1600 and not many people own one because it would take about a years pay to own one so not many was out there, but the Church's had them. The Anglo American wasn't out until1880 and the revised American edition wasn't out until 1900 most people relied on their church leaders . Early in the Catholic history one of the popes said if you wasn't catholic you couldn't go to heaven later another one revised the rule and said any one could ..Hitler was a catholic, I know that and didn't say other wise.And I have read Mien Kampf He might have been a Catholic but wasn't a Christian there are allot of folk that like to own that tag of being a Christian. Hitler was a cruel insane individual and his death came none to soon, may I add his death was hastened by a Christian nation the USA.I know that the Holocaust wasn't carried out by Christians but by a mad man.You see (Yeshua)Jesus wasn't a violent person except when he cleansed the temple and curse the fig tree. Hitler did slaughter millions but it wasn't the Lords hand or the Lords teaching that committed this monstrous crime against human beings ,it was Hitler. One more thing Thou shalt not kill was a translation error in the original manuscript it Thou shall do no murder.Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 11:13 pm by Firefly1958
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 11:01 pm |
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okeegator:
How do you explain the origins of a Maserati? Was it created from whole cloth? One day there were no cars and then all of a sudden the next day there's a Maserati? Answer: No... everything we have today was built incrementally... you start primitive and you get more sophisticated bit by bit by bit, building on previous structures.
Nature works the same way... evolution works over a long long period of time.. small incremental changes that over a long period of time add complexity and sophistication.
There's no other way. Snap-your-fingers creation makes no sense.
Sorry for the simple analogy -- I know with religious types I need to proceed very simply, else you'll not understand it.
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 10:47 pm |
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Flsr:
from your post: "...You believe the Bible is full of inconsistencies. It is not...."
You're kidding, right?
1) Thou shalt not kill.
That's in the Bible, yes?
2) Deutoronomy has many discussions in it in which "god" prescribes conditions in which you MUST kill people -- such as if your neighbor deosn't follow the Sabbath.
That's in the Bible, yes? Don't make me write out the verse... you're supposed to know the Bible,
Is that not inconsistent? Or do you have your very own definition of the word "consistent" ?
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 10:42 pm |
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| JMD: Thank you ! I thought I was the only single beacon of reason
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JMD
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 10:13 pm |
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Hitler was a Christian plain and simple.
He declared it and he lived by it in his own twisted sense.
As for God not condoning murders...lets be real here.
Moses had hundreds of people killed after he broke the tables and the war right now is accompanied by the go-to "God Bless the Troops" phrase.
Moses is a hero as are wars.
Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 10:13 pm by JMD
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okeegator
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 10:01 pm |
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Question for conjeel:
How do you explain the origins of life/universe?
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flsr
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 09:15 pm |
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| I asked the question was Hitler an Atheist. I did not know. What I do know is that he was an insane person and it makes no difference that he declared himself to be a Christian. God does not believe he or any of all the murderers were/are Christian. Oh, I forgot, you don't believe God exists, and therefore there is no judgement to be made. You believe the Bible is full of inconsistencies. It is not. The inconsistencies are among the many and various interpretations. the Bible says there is one Lord, one faith, and of course everyone thinks he has the one true faith.
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flsr
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 08:48 pm |
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| pman02-----I think we have tried to reason with him. He rejects the idea of an Almighty God, and the Bible which says no man can see God and live. It apparently is not possible for him to see what a certain power has done. I will discuss religion but there comes a time when you have to wipe the dirt from your feet and stop throwing your pearls before swine.
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 08:40 pm |
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Firefly:
You deny that Christians used to torture people? You ever hear of the Spanish Inquisition? How about the Salem witch trials? Torture of heretics is very well known, very well documented, and went on for 1,500 years... The church burned people at the stake until it was abolished in the late 1700s. You can look it up. Christians were persecuted in the early years.... once we became the dominant religion starting in the 400s or so, we did all the persecuting -- throughout Europe and the Americas. It's very well documented. So, as you say... learn your history.
And by the way, Hitler was NOT an aetheist. That's just a convenient myth. You can read his speeches on line. You can read "Mein Kampf" He was a Christian all the way baby... he considered the killing of the Jews to be carrying out the wishes of the Lord.... you can look it up.
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 08:31 pm |
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pman02:
never read so much bulls**t in my life. The bottom line is: ... you decide which one of God's words you will follow and which ones you don't, just like anyone else. All religious people actually do that, cause the Bible is internally inconsistent -- you HAVE to figure out what you want to follow and what you won't...
that's the botton line... all the rest of your rationalizations are just.... sophistry.
and, sorry , no, I won't be contacting you.
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 08:27 pm |
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Oh my... Once again you missed the point completely... So I"ll try again:
I have no doubt Jesus Christ existed. He was a man, yes... he did live. I never said I doubted that. What I keep telling you is just a story is that he has supernatural powers... he rose from the dead... he is the son of god.. he was born of a virgin... yada yada... THAT's what I'm telling you is nonsense. I have nothing against stories. Myths and stories can be woven around real people.
All I'm saying is that god doesn't exist. Jesus DID exist -- as a man. He is not god and is dead. D. E. D. dead. He is not floating in the sky looking at you.. any more than Santa Claus is.
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flsr
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 03:59 pm |
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| Amen PMan 02
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pman02
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 12:26 pm |
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conjeel wrote:
There is no god. There is no invisible man floating in the sky. To believe otherwise is delusion. You believe someone created galaxies ?? Who is this guy? Who created him??
Do you believe in George Washington? If yes, then why? Because you believe the witnesses throughout history that tell you through their testimony of a man who became the 1st president of this great nation.
My Point? There is less known proof of the existence of George Washington than there is for the existence of Jesus Christ. We have more historical proof of the existence of Jesus than there is for our 1st president yet many still do not believe. Figure that one out.
I believe it is because of the fact that to believe in George Washington does not cost anything, however, to believe in Christ means I have to make a choice in my life that many are not willing to make.
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pman02
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 12:08 pm |
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conjeel wrote: pman02:
"...This is the key to being acceptable to God, following "His" word and not our own thinking or what others may say is truth...."
Wow... you guys are too much. OK: "god" has many many words in the Bible. Here are a few:
from Deuteronomy 13:7 - 11:
"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to seduce you saying, "Let us go and serve other gods," unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the people surounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yaweh your God....
And, according to the Bible, we should not read that passage "symbolically", no we must take it literally. In Deuteronomy 13:1, "God" tells us:
"Whatever I am commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away..."
So here's my question, pman02: Why don't you follow those words?? Why do you apply your own thinkning, as you say? Why don't you follow those words blindly? What moral structure do you use to judge which one of God's words you follow and which ones you decide not to?
The reason I would not follow those words is because those words were written during the time when the Old Testament Law was in effect. We now live in the Christian dispensation of time where the old law has been fulfilled. See Hebrews 7:17-22 and you will see that we have a new High Priest in Jesus and no need for a law that has been abolished.
I do not apply my own thinking as you say. I study the scripture and allow it to speak for itself, however we must consider the whole council (all of scripture) in order to know what God is saying to us and apply it in the proper context, dispensation of time, type of literature it is formatted in and the era in which it is to be understood.
Also I do not follow religion blindly, I do not follow religion at all for that matter. God is not a religion and I do not follow His word blindly either. It is through much study, research, and reasoning that I have arrived at the beliefs I hold dear. I was not born with the knowledge and understanding I now have but through much study did I arrive at this level of Faith.
Morality has nothing to do with following Gods Word and determining which one to follow. It is through reason and logic that I follow His word and application of His law depends on what law and to whom it is written.
conjeel, perhaps you should study this further too so that you understand the entire aspect of religion vs. God before you rush to conclusions that really do not hold up when logically tested. Everything I believe. everything I teach has been tested by me and many men before me to be authentic and it has stood the test of time. Therefore feel free to test my teachings and I am sure logic will dictate the outcome.
if you would like to study further in private feel free to contact me at clewistoncofc@hotmail.com
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flsr
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 09:59 am |
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Congeel, relative to stories, do you understand the difference between fiction and nonfiction?
How far in the past is it necessary for events to have taken place for you to believe or not believe in them? Do you not believe that Hitler exterminated thousands of Jews? Was Hitler an atheist or what did he believe? Besides some people are not who or what they claim to be. Real Christians do not kill people, however there has got to be a fine line and a judgement made when people come at you to murder you, as in an entire country. Do you just turn the other cheek in that case and not retaliate? I have considered this for years. If we did our enemies could make short work of us.
There were real live people who saw for themselves this man Jesus and saw what he did, but it happened a long time ago. No one is alive today who saw his miracles, but those people were instructed to go forth into all the nations to teach the good news of the Kingdom to all the earth and then the end would come. I think you are probably the type who if your best friend had died 3 days ago and was raised from the dead by Jesus that you would think something else caused it. That is the reason Jesus was hung up, because fools didn't believe his "stories".
How about Abraham Lincoln? We saw an article on the "History" channel about him and his assasination. I was not alive in Lincoln's time, but what I learned seems truthful and reasonable, so I believe it.
What it boils down to, is people will believe what seems reasonable to them, when the information hits their brain. We do have to be careful to not just pick our truths according to what we want them to be.
Have you ever seen the wind?or have you only seen what it does? You probably would not believe that the power of it comes from the forces of an Almighty Being and that it just happens SOMEHOW. The Bible speaks of God sending forth "my" wind to dry up the ground after a rain, but you don't believe in that do you. If you are the only one in control why don't you have it rain here? It's getting a little dry.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 02:48 am |
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conjeel wrote: Firefly:
Well, now we're getting to the point... you say "it will all be sorted out in the end.."
Gee... live and let live as it were.... you believe in what you believe and I'll do the same. Well, gee.. that's fine. I have no problem with that.
The difficulty I have, and one of the reasons for being angry about religion, is that religious people throughout history and even today by and large do NOT have your attitude of live and let live. The Muslims put people in prison for being apostates. Christians used to torture people for not believing in the invisible man. Southern Baptist preachers today tell the "flock" that if you don't believe in the supernatural Jesus you'll go to hell. People in Okeechobee want to teach religion in public schools. People who want to educate their children in a secular way are not really allowed to...
So it's not exactly live and let live. Only aetheists really practice that.
Congeel your angry, not me .....so who is intimidated enough to get angry .I am very secure in my belief,you if you could I think go to war so to speak to rid the world of Christians.thats how it all starts.And if you want to see how secure I am in my faith try taking it away.You say Christians used to torture people ,Christian have been persecuted through the centuries, do your research, my Lord and Saviour was beat tortured ,spit at nailed to the cross and hung there till death for the likes of you and me.If you don't believe ,so be it , hey don't worry about us religious nutballs
Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 07:33 pm by Firefly1958
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 02:29 am |
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Firefly:
Well, now we're getting to the point... you say "it will all be sorted out in the end.."
Gee... live and let live as it were.... you believe in what you believe and I'll do the same. Well, gee.. that's fine. I have no problem with that.
The difficulty I have, and one of the reasons for being angry about religion, is that religious people throughout history and even today by and large do NOT have your attitude of live and let live. The Muslims put people in prison for being apostates. Christians used to torture people for not believing in the invisible man. Southern Baptist preachers today tell the "flock" that if you don't believe in the supernatural Jesus you'll go to hell. People in Okeechobee want to teach religion in public schools. People who want to educate their children in a secular way are not really allowed to...
So it's not exactly live and let live. Only aetheists really practice that.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 02:17 am |
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conjeel wrote: Firefly:
Wow... Its my fault, really... I knew communicating in a rational way with you religious nut-balls would be a lost cause, but I did it anyway, cause I guess its something to pass the time..
You completely missed my point, of course.. all those quotes from the Koran ! Who cares !
My point is that all of it is a story... made up by man. All these quotes from the Koran or the Bible... they're stories !! The problem is, as I stated several time during my posts but you continue to completely miss, is that these stories are believed by religious types to be actually real.. and many people throughout history have been tortured as a result of these beliefs. Its as if people believe that Star Wars is real and that, if your neighbor believes in a different interpretation of Luke Skywalker than you do, he deserves to die. That's what religion has basically done throughout human history... and that's why people such as yourself deserve to be mocked.
Cojeel thats perfectly fine with me, I don't mind being mocked at all .Like I said I'm not in the business of saving souls and if there is no God there is not one thing to worry about you have lived your life as you wanted to, died and thats the end of Conjeel and the rest of us . If there is a God ..........well to put it nicely your screwed ,but will have a chance during the 1000 year teaching .Sorry I missed your point .Those quotes was put there to correct your post about Jews and Mohammad.If you believe its all stories and I don't ,we are free to believe,what ever.As I have read FLsr and some of the others don't believe the same as me .....Thats fine with me ,it will all be sorted out in the end.
Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 02:19 am by Firefly1958
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 02:05 am |
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Firefly:
Wow... Its my fault, really... I knew communicating in a rational way with you religious nut-balls would be a lost cause, but I did it anyway, cause I guess its something to pass the time..
You completely missed my point, of course.. all those quotes from the Koran ! Who cares !
My point is that all of it is a story... made up by man. All these quotes from the Koran or the Bible... they're stories !! The problem is, as I stated several time during my posts but you continue to completely miss, is that these stories are believed by religious types to be actually real.. and many people throughout history have been tortured as a result of these beliefs. Its as if people believe that Star Wars is real and that, if your neighbor believes in a different interpretation of Luke Skywalker than you do, he deserves to die. That's what religion has basically done throughout human history... and that's why people such as yourself deserve to be mocked.
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 01:48 am |
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Flsr:
read what I wrote to Pman02.... I'm actually curious as to how you'll respond to that one..
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conjeel
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 01:44 am |
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FLsr: here's your quote:
I would say he can be anything he wants to be, but I don't think insecure is one. Why don't you ask Him you nincompoop? He is the one with the power, who has made all the good things on this earth and deserves praise. What have you done or made?
Why dont I ask him? Who's him? What are you talking about? Should I talk to myself ? Should I walk the streets talking to an invisible being ? I have seen people doing that... they're homeless people.
There is no god. There is no invisible man floating in the sky. To believe otherwise is delusion. You believe someone created galaxies ?? Who is this guy? Who created him??
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 10:09 pm |
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conjeel wrote: Firefly:
Why are spirits real, but the tooth fairy isn't? How do you know Santa Claus is just a story, but that Jesus being born of a virgin really happened?
Its actually stupid of me to even ask, cause I know internal consistency is not really a requirement to be a religious person
The tooth fairy was made up by Americans.However Saint Nicolas was very real he helped the needy. After his death people picked up his tradition of giving hence Santa Claus, its just giving
Ok... Yes! In the case of Santa CLaus, we took a real guy, Nicolas somebody, and wrote stories about him that became the legends of Santa Clause. That's fine... like Paul Bunyan or any other story. That's fine.
The stories of Jesus CHrist should be exactly the same. Myths and stories. I have nothing against myths and stories. The problem is, you guys believe these supernatural powers talked about in these stories are REAL ! People throughout history have been tortured and killed cause they didn't necessarily believe in the same INTERPRETATION of the stories as you did. The Jews believe Jesus is just a story.The jews believe that Jesus existed they just do not believe he is the King. We believe Mohammad is not a real prophetMohammad was a prophet but not the Christ, and not recognized as a major prophet,The Muslims believe in Jesus , He was a important man ,they say in their Qu'ran that he was a very important man and now sits on the right hand of God they think he was sent by God ,not of God. but just a story. For those differing interpretations, wars are being fought !!
If you would treat Jesus like Santa Claus, a cute story to tell children, the world would be a better place.
The Ascension of Jesus to the Skies From the Qa'ran
"They (The Jews) said in boast, "We killed Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah," but they killed him not nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for a surety they killed him not, but Allah raised him up unto Himself, and Allah is exalted in power, wise." 4/157-158
"Remember when Allah said, "O Jesus! I shall take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of the falsehood of those who rejected faith and I shall make those who followed you superior to those who rejected faith, until the day of resurrection. Then you shall all return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters upon which you disputed." 3/55
8.The Descent of Jesus.
"Jesus was no more than a servant, We granted Our favour to him, and We made an example to the children of Israel. If it were Our will, We would have made angels amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth. Jesus shall be a sign for the coming of the hour of judgement : Therefore have no doubt about the Hour, but follow Me, this is a straight way." 43/61
"When you meet the unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks at length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind the captives firmly, therefore is the time for either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens when Jesus descends. This is what you have been commanded, but if it had been Allah’s will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them Himself, but He lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." 47/4
"There are none of the people of the book, but will believe in him before his death and on the Day of Judgement he will be a witness upon them." 4/158.
Some other Quranic verses which refer to the descent of Jesus are those which describe Jesus’ speech in infancy and manhood. The verses are as follows:
"Remember the time when the angels said, "O Mary! Allah rewards you with the glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is Masih, I’sa` , Son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the hereafter and he will be from those who are close to Allah and he shall speak to people from the cradle and in manhood and he shall be from the righteous ones." 3/46.
"Remember when Allah said, "O I’sa` , Son of Mary! Remember My favour upon you and your mother, when I strengthened you by the Angel Gabriel, so that you may talk to the people in the cradle and in manhood." 5/11
Congeel ,ignorance is bliss ,I have to ask Congeel just what is it you believe?Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 12:33 am by Firefly1958
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flsr
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 09:28 pm |
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Flsr:
I am not confused at all. Never have been.
Let me ask you a question: If God is the creator of the Universe, all knowing, all seeing, with tremendous powers... why does he need to be praised all the time? Is he insecure ??
No... its cause people like you made the whole thing up ! It's a human invention. It makes no sense that an all powerful being who made the Sun, and black holes, and galaxies would have this neediness -- needing to be praised and worshipped and prayed to. It's just nonsense.
**********************************************************************
I would say he can be anything he wants to be, but I don't think insecure is one. Why don't you ask Him you nincompoop? He is the one with the power, who has made all the good things on this earth and deserves praise. What have you done or made? It's always the one with the power who gets to set the rules. Some day you will experience an awakening and a recognition of Gods existence for some reason or other. Until then keep on with your nonsensical questions. Anyone who cannot see the miracle of God every day of his life is not sensitive or aware of very much.
Live your life any way you want to and I will do the same.
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conjeel
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 09:23 pm |
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Firefly:
Why are spirits real, but the tooth fairy isn't? How do you know Santa Claus is just a story, but that Jesus being born of a virgin really happened?
Its actually stupid of me to even ask, cause I know internal consistency is not really a requirement to be a religious person
The tooth fairy was made up by Americans.However Saint Nicolas was very real he helped the needy. After his death people picked up his tradition of giving hence Santa Claus, its just giving
Ok... Yes! In the case of Santa CLaus, we took a real guy, Nicolas somebody, and wrote stories about him that became the legends of Santa Clause. That's fine... like Paul Bunyan or any other story. That's fine.
The stories of Jesus CHrist should be exactly the same. Myths and stories. I have nothing against myths and stories. The problem is, you guys believe these supernatural powers talked about in these stories are REAL ! People throughout history have been tortured and killed cause they didn't necessarily believe in the same INTERPRETATION of the stories as you did. The Jews believe Jesus is just a story. We believe Mohammed is not a real prophet, but just a story. For those differing interpretations, wars are being fought !!
If you would treat Jesus like Santa Claus, a cute story to tell children, the world would be a better place.
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conjeel
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 09:12 pm |
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pman02:
"...This is the key to being acceptable to God, following "His" word and not our own thinking or what others may say is truth...."
Wow... you guys are too much. OK: "god" has many many words in the Bible. Here are a few:
from Deuteronomy 13:7 - 11:
"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to seduce you saying, "Let us go and serve other gods," unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the people surounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yaweh your God....
And, according to the Bible, we should not read that passage "symbolically", no we must take it literally. In Deuteronomy 13:1, "God" tells us:
"Whatever I am commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away..."
So here's my question, pman02: Why don't you follow those words?? Why do you apply your own thinkning, as you say? Why don't you follow those words blindly? What moral structure do you use to judge which one of God's words you follow and which ones you decide not to?
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conjeel
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 09:04 pm |
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Firefly:
Mormonism was made up by Americans... just like the tooth fairy. The "prophet" Joseph Smith of the Church of Latter Day Saints. No difference between him and the story of the American Santa CLaus. Same kind of story. Same nonsense. However, people have KILLED other people in the name of their belief in Joseph Smith. Their defence in court ? I have FAITH ! I believe ! You must respect my religious rights !
Be careful how you respond... cause as I have said, internal consistency is not a strong suit of religious pople.
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conjeel
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 08:58 pm |
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Flsr:
I am not confused at all. Never have been.
Let me ask you a question: If God is the creator of the Universe, all knowing, all seeing, with tremendous powers... why does he need to be praised all the time? Is he insecure ??
No... its cause people like you made the whole thing up ! It's a human invention. It makes no sense that an all powerful being who made the Sun, and black holes, and galaxies would have this neediness -- needing to be praised and worshipped and prayed to. It's just nonsense.
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flsr
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:03 pm |
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Ciphered, Thank you for this information. I missed that news. Too bad her legacy lives on, but we know whose work it really is don't we.
Darn, when we get to a new page it's harder to refer to a previous post. The one before yours was also good. Thank God there are some people who have Christian beliefs and values. The hard part for me is trying to be a good example of what I believe in. I fall waaaay short.
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Ciphered
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:21 pm |
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flsr wrote: Although Madeline Murray O'Hare is an old gal and still working the devil's evil everywhere she can. .... It is people like you and her who tear down, try to anyway, everything that is good in our society. Ms O'Hare "went to be with Jesus" in 1995. She and her son and granddaughter were murdered in Texas by an employee who had stolen a lot of money from the athiest organization she headed. But I doubt she stayed with Jesus much longer than it took Him to check out the O's in the Lamb's Book of Life.
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pman02
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:16 pm |
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The Bible has been tested for centuries as the authentic Word of God and is to be our guide to live a life acceptable to God. It is our personal relationship with Christ that allows us the freedom from a life of destruction. This is the key to being acceptable to God, following "His" word and not our own thinking or what others may say is truth.
I have studied religion for 25yrs and the closest "church" (assembly) I have ever found that holds to the scripture without the influence of man made religion is the churches of Christ. This is not to say they are the only true church, (they are totally independent from each other), but I have not found a group of people who strive harder to follow the pattern set forth in scripture.
No one is perfect but the key is to follow the commands of Jesus as close as we can (in our worship, living, and practice) and allow His grace to make up the difference. Then when we stand before Him in the judgment, (after the dead in Christ have risen and those who are left are caught up to be with Him in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 18; 1 Corinthians ch. 15), we will be justified by His blood and the obedience we have shown to Him and be rewarded accordingly with no help from anyone else.
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flsr
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 11:46 am |
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Congeel--I am curious about how old you are. It would seem not very, if you have not lived long enough to see proof of God's existence. Although Madeline Murray O'Hare is an old gal and still working the devil's evil everywhere she can. Do you think the conditions here on earth are just great? Have you not lived long enough to see that they get worse every year you live? It is people like you and her who tear down, try to anyway, everything that is good in our society. Do you have any sacred book you believe in at all? Mine is the Holy Bible. I believe that every word in it is the inspired word of God. The confusion does not come from the authors, it comes from the people who are trying to interpret it. Most are trying very hard to interpret it correctly. Much understanding has been lost over the years due to changing languages, but still it is preserved and revered by most decent people who believe there is value in a perfect set of rules. This very God that you do not believe in has given us the choice to believe in him or not. Many athiests at some time in their life, when there is absolutely no one else to help them or that can help them will finally call out to God. If I were you I would be afraid that He would not listen when that time came.
I can understand some of your confusion but I don't think that is a good reason to reject Christianity. The Almighty God has said "thou shalt have no other gods before me". There are many gods and we need to be careful of which one we choose over all the others. If all this is is too hokey for you, too bad. I believe your eyes will be opened some day.
As to my stupidity, I would take a test along side you any day. But in this day and age, I wouldn't even have any faith in one who has prepared a test. The values in our society have changed radically, and not for the better.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:44 am |
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conjeel wrote: Why are spirits real, but the tooth fairy isn't? How do you know Santa Claus is just a story, but that Jesus being born of a virgin really happened?
Its actually stupid of me to even ask, cause I know internal consistency is not really a requirement to be a religious person
The tooth fairy was made up by Americans.However Saint Nicolas was very real he helped the needy. After his death people picked up his tradition of giving hence Santa Claus, its just givingLast edited on Mon May 5th, 2008 02:23 am by Firefly1958
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conjeel
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:35 am |
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Why are spirits real, but the tooth fairy isn't? How do you know Santa Claus is just a story, but that Jesus being born of a virgin really happened?
Its actually stupid of me to even ask, cause I know internal consistency is not really a requirement to be a religious person
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:26 am |
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conjeel wrote: Yes, you are right ! Belief in God goes hand in hand with belief in devils, spooks, goblins and the like... Cause once you start believing in the supernatural, its a slippery slope my dear... You can't say that God is real, angels are real, the devil is real, but then somehow draw the line when it comes to ghosts, demons, and the tooth fairy.
But you haven't been reading prior posts... I am conjeel... I am a mocker of religious types. I am an aetheist. I believe God is completely a man-made invention. And I believe that faith is NOT a virtue. I believe that faith and worhship of supernatural beings has caused a great deal of harm throughout human history. And the fact that here in 2008 there are many people who still believe this nonsense is scary to me.
Conjeel, if thats your belief no one is going to change your mind.But I will tell you I do believe evil spirits roam this earth and Hell isn't open for business yet .I don't believe in the tooth fairy although as a child it was fun, then I grew up
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conjeel
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:20 am |
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| just to clarify... my previous post was a response to FYI... from La Belle, FL... you have to scroll way down to see her original post
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conjeel
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:18 am |
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Yes, you are right ! Belief in God goes hand in hand with belief in devils, spooks, goblins and the like... Cause once you start believing in the supernatural, its a slippery slope my dear... You can't say that God is real, angels are real, the devil is real, but then somehow draw the line when it comes to ghosts, demons, and the tooth fairy.
But you haven't been reading prior posts... I am conjeel... I am a mocker of religious types. I am an aetheist. I believe God is completely a man-made invention. And I believe that faith is NOT a virtue. I believe that faith and worhship of supernatural beings has caused a great deal of harm throughout human history. And the fact that here in 2008 there are many people who still believe this nonsense is scary to me.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:10 am |
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conjeel wrote: Firefly: The response was not to you... It was to Razorback. But the sentiments expressed are still valid
OK Identify who you talking to. Last edited on Mon May 5th, 2008 01:11 am by Firefly1958
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conjeel
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:09 am |
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Getting Halloween mixed up with the Bible? You are stupid. Halloween and the Bible are one and the same thing -- spook stories.
If I had used the work "spirits" instead of "spooks"... would that have made it better? You believe in "eternal life", yes? (you must if you're a Southern Baptist). Well, what do you call those spirits? They're ghosts, right? Or... as I put it... "spooks."
And as for "goblins"... who runs Hell ? You're a religious person, yes? You believe this crap, don't you? So I'll ask you a direct question: You believe Hell is real, yes? So... who runs it? Some devilish beings must run it, yes? Can I call them "goblins"?
So... how am I mixing up Halloween with the Bible?
you religious types crack me up.
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conjeel
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 01:00 am |
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| Firefly: The response was not to you... It was to Razorback. But the sentiments expressed are still valid
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:55 am |
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flsr wrote: I agree. However it comes out I look forward to the end of this mess. I don't mean I am suicidal or anything like that, but I am ready for a BIG change and I'm not referring to anything the politicians can do for us. We like to believe we have chosen the right teachers for ourselves and the only way we can help things along is to carefully read the scriptures ourselves and understand to the best of our ability. I take it literal where the Bible says "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out." I do not attend a church either as I have decided to let Jesus be the only mediator between God and man. I do not condemn those who do attend church. I feel that many need the fellowship. I am kind of a loner and seen too much of the Jim Bakker's, Jim Jones, Jimmy Swagert, Warren Jeffers (spelling may be wrong here)and many other preacher types. However, they cannot all be hypocrites.
If a person were to study religious origins as well as the scriptures it would also be fascinating. In days of old there were Athanasian creeds and Arian creeds. I tend to follow one as I believe it agrees more with the scripture, although I'd have to look it up again as I have forgottenwhich it was.
Haven't ever heard of those creeds, I'll check it out , are they like the apostles creed Last edited on Mon May 5th, 2008 12:56 am by Firefly1958
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flsr
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:50 am |
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I agree. However it comes out I look forward to the end of this mess. I don't mean I am suicidal or anything like that, but I am ready for a BIG change and I'm not referring to anything the politicians can do for us. We like to believe we have chosen the right teachers for ourselves and the only way we can help things along is to carefully read the scriptures ourselves and understand to the best of our ability. I take it literal where the Bible says "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out." I do not attend a church either as I have decided to let Jesus be the only mediator between God and man. I do not condemn those who do attend church. I feel that many need the fellowship. I am kind of a loner and seen too much of the Jim Bakker's, Jim Jones, Jimmy Swagert, Warren Jeffers (spelling may be wrong here)and many other preacher types. However, they cannot all be hypocrites.
If a person were to study religious origins as well as the scriptures it would also be fascinating. In days of old there were Athanasian creeds and Arian creeds. I tend to follow one as I believe it agrees more with the scripture, although I'd have to look it up again as I have forgotten which it was.
Last edited on Mon May 5th, 2008 12:56 am by flsr
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:23 am |
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flsr wrote: See what I mean about the different takes on the scripture. I have been through this many times and many years. The biggest problem for uniform understanding of the scriptures is what one understands to be figurative or literal. I believe that the heavenly Kingdom of beings are spiritual and will rule over the new earth and those who reside on it. I have the hope of a fleshly existance on a renewed earth in which the evil will be gone. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. I am eagerly waiting. What need is there for earth if ALL those who pass will be floating around in the heavens as spitual beings?
Yes there are many different understandings of the scripture my mother inlaw believed in the rapture ,I don't, some believe the graves will open when the Lord comes, I do not.It's just how you perceive it ,somebody has to be right. Are we even in the Church's that God approved of ,I don't go to church but truly believe in the scripture and study it.I to believe in heaven on earth and that will come in time .We just have to wait and hope we are right if we are not there will be the 1000 years of teaching, that will be the real test.
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flsr
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 11:33 pm |
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