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flsr
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 06:12 pm |
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It's amazing the different beliefs people get out of their Bibles. I have read of angels and satan, but not seen such words as spooks or goblins. People are getting halloween mixed up with the Bible, and are lying to little kids about the tooth fairy.
People can't even study the Bible without coming away with different views. For instance, many believe that the soul is seperate from the body. I believe the soul is the entire person. And the Bible says the dead are unconcious, they know nothing at all. They are lying there in wait for the resurrection. Big disappointment, I suppose to those who believe their departed loved ones are in Heaven already. Won't it be amazing to those who have passed, upon their resurrection, to find out they haven't been anywhere?
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F Y I
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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conjeel wrote: van Tassel:
You read the stuff this Razorback guy is saying? What did I tell you earlier? Something about "spooks and goblins"? This guy is a believer ! He embraces it !
And I gotta tell ya... for a grown man to state with all sincerity that he believes angels, the Devil, spooks, goblins, and the tooth fairy are REAL... well, there's nothing else I can call that kind of person but... insane. Should be committed. Along with other people who hear voices and see Jesus Christ in blocks of wood. (by the way, your John Lennon thing is very funny). Instead, these people dominate life in Okeechobee !! good grief !
OK now, I gotta ask
so believe in god you are sane, but you can not believe in Satan, or devils or spooks. Well, don't they go hand in hand? You know the old parable of you can not have day with out night, or good with out evil.
So, while we sending people for psych exams, can we send the pope an all the rest of the clergy? As, they not only believe, but preach from a book of compiled legends an stories about demons an the devil. I am pretty sure they believe it 100%.
Just pointing out that it's a pretty broad stroke of the brush to encompass "all" beliefs with.
I have always found it an interesting catch 22 most of us live our lives by. We, HOPE there is a heaven when we die. There has to be something else when we leave here.
But, we HOPE there isn't a hell, as we continue to do wrong by the Bible's simple rules. When in all honesty if we really believed in heaven an hell, we would KNOW which direction we were headed!
Just an observation this fine Sunday in May. Do remember we were warned.
labelleblog@hotmail.com
Semper Fidelis
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conjeel
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Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 03:30 pm |
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| I have no desire to have "open and productive" discussions with people who believe in the supernatural. We're really not on the same planet. I have no respect for your powers of logic or reason -- if you were a logical and reasonable person you wouldn't believe in ghosts and angels and the supernatural -- so there's really nothing to discuss.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 08:13 pm |
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pman02 wrote: Firefly, would a cloned person be a living human in the image of God?? I think so. Other forms of conception do and basically a clone would be another form of conception. However I do not think it will ever be fully developed in my lifetime. Just a logical thought.
The question my friend has asked worried me, now you put this one out there  The person that the DNA come from already has a soul since Cloning is an exact copy of that donor ,I don,t know Ill stop right there till I can gather my thoughts ,grandbaby just got here  I can,t imagine a person without a soul. This morning they are going ahead with cloning a human in Missouri.I guess we will wait and see.
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pman02
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 07:52 pm |
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| Firefly, would a cloned person be a living human in the image of God?? I think so. Other forms of conception do and basically a clone would be another form of conception. However I do not think it will ever be fully developed in my lifetime. Just a logical thought.
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tophat
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 04:59 pm |
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IMHO wrote: P.VanTassell wrote: I don't know how these people are seeing Jesus...I'm just seeing John Lennon.
I'm sure you're way too young to remember this, but in the 60's John Lennon said he was more popular than Jesus.
As someone younger than Mr. VanTassell i seem to remember hearing that Lennon said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus.
Not Lennon himself.
He said that jokingly and then apologized when people took him seriously.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 01:49 am |
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| JMD look at yourself ,the humanbody is perfectly constructed look at the animals,the same .look at this world,not what we've done to it, just the world itself ,at one times palms grew in Alaska the world didn't freeze at the north and south pole .The mid east was the largest rain forest in the world now its desert.How did they know in Biblical time the world was shook off its axis (by 90 miles) in the first earth age if someone didn't tell them about the katabole.The sun and the moon is set perfectly Something other than the big boom did this.Our body is made of the same elements that make up the earth.Our mere existence is a miracle in itself.Have you ever felt like your soul was leaving your body?Its a very strange thing pulling out of your body from the top of your head to the soles of your feet.Jesus,this plain man has impacted more people than any other man in the history of mankind.In the book of Psalms they prophesied about him and in the new testament it was fulfilled .There has got to be more to us than to reproduce and die and nothing else . Last edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 03:19 am by Firefly1958
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JMD
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 12:39 am |
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I don't know if this question has been touched on in a previous thread but I would like to know why you believe.
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JMD
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 09:19 pm |
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Firefly1958 wrote: I do believe and no one is going to change my mind either. They will need him one day and guess what......... He will be there.
What a perfect way of saying it.
And it really boils down to the fact that if a person believes they believe for their own reasons...they have felt the touch of the lord and that is that to them.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 05:47 pm |
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Razorback75 wrote: Call me all the names you want to.
I forgive you. I hold you no ill will.
Calling me names will not shake my faith or even upset me.
But it hardly qualifies as an open and productive debate or discussion.
Razorback 75 Don't pay any attention to them. I guess if you never needed to call on the Lord you could think like that, as for me, I do believe and no one is going to change my mind either. They will need him one day and guess what......... He will be there.Last edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 12:00 am by Firefly1958
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Razorback75
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 05:24 pm |
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Call me all the names you want to.
I forgive you. I hold you no ill will.
Calling me names will not shake my faith or even upset me.
But it hardly qualifies as an open and productive debate or discussion.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 02:12 am |
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| I'm going to ask a question to all that was asked of me, I couldn't give an answer.Question would a cloned person have a soul.I know sounds crazy ,but think about it and tell me what you think.
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Fl Crkr
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 12:56 am |
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| I recall that statement, don't know if it was the Beatles as a group or just John Lennon. Created quite a stir in it's day. I thought everyone had forgot those days, or couldn't remember them.
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IMHO
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 12:51 am |
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P.VanTassell wrote: I don't know how these people are seeing Jesus...I'm just seeing John Lennon.
I'm sure you're way too young to remember this, but in the 60's John Lennon said he was more popular than Jesus.
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conjeel
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 05:31 pm |
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van Tassel:
You read the stuff this Razorback guy is saying? What did I tell you earlier? Something about "spooks and goblins"? This guy is a believer ! He embraces it !
And I gotta tell ya... for a grown man to state with all sincerity that he believes angels, the Devil, spooks, goblins, and the tooth fairy are REAL... well, there's nothing else I can call that kind of person but... insane. Should be committed. Along with other people who hear voices and see Jesus Christ in blocks of wood. (by the way, your John Lennon thing is very funny). Instead, these people dominate life in Okeechobee !! good grief !
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 11:04 pm |
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okee_010 wrote: But, also for fairness sake, not all people who believe in god or are apart of an organized religion are "very nice people". They also can be "selfish and cruel".
I don't believe in organized religion,I do have faith and believe the Bible.....Selfishness and cruelty are a part of human nature no matter if you are atheist ,church goer or not .These are things that you have to work on every hour of the day ,I am a very generous person but by nature,I'm not a kind person because I'm so matter of fact most everything that comes out of my mouth is not candy coated some say I'm unapproachable because I lay it out there and most of the time its not what they was wanting to hear.I'm not a consoler I don't need consoling therefore other people don't need it either that is hard for me ,because other people do need consoling.Its not a good spot to be in allot of time .others times its fine.Last edited on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 11:54 pm by Firefly1958
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okee_010
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 10:47 pm |
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But, also for fairness sake, not all people who believe in god or are apart of an organized religion are "very nice people". They also can be "selfish and cruel".
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Razorback75
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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Of course I agree that all atheists are not selfish human beings. Some are very nice people. Some are selfish and cruel.
And many people believe in God, or a higher power, and don't believe in organized religion.
I really dislike putting people into categories at all.
People are individuals. As my teenager puts it "labels are for soup cans."
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Razorback75
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 08:42 pm |
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| I don't think visions are appearing in household objects -- but some people certainly want to believe it and "see" it. I think that has more to do with what is in people's heads and divine intervention. A few years ago, a "vision" of the Virgin Mary appeared in a window in an abandoned building in Moore Haven. Some people were calling churches and making a big fuss. Then the newspaper went over and did a story and a little investigative work and it turned out that years before, a Christmas decoration had been painted there, and when it was removed, it left a residue on the window's surface. As dust collected on the window over the years, the outline of that old painting started to become visible.
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P.VanTassell
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 07:08 pm |
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Firefly1958 wrote: I,m not making fun of anyone ,it's just that people fall for any thing .I think the image is remarkable but Jesus, I don't think so.
I personally think that its a little sad that people look for Jesus in reflections as opposed to the healing and miracles that are reported in the news.
A woodgrain door with the likeness of a face is no miracle, its a door, or a window...or a piece of toast.
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 06:22 pm |
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| I,m not making fun of anyone ,it's just that people fall for any thing .I think the image is remarkable but Jesus, I don't think so.
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P.VanTassell
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 04:52 pm |
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I don't know how these people are seeing Jesus...I'm just seeing John Lennon.
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Mitch4
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 04:43 pm |
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| I assume because in the case the object appeared to be Jesus by those that were visiting the hospital and hospital staff?
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Firefly1958
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 03:34 pm |
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Mitch4 wrote: P.VanTassell wrote: Mitch4 wrote: http://www.local6.com/news/15875360/detail.html
have at it !
I'll be frank...if the Lord Jesus Christ as his Mother the Holy Virgin Mary can only come to earth and show themselves as pieces of toast, wood grain, and a reflection then their powers were vastly exaggerated.
lol...still, he showed himself as a cheeto about two weeks ago Seriously, how do you explain that not one person, but many people at different times during this hour or so saw the same thing- Jesus crying.
I guess my question is, why would they think it was Jesus?
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Mitch4
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 02:28 pm |
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P.VanTassell wrote: Mitch4 wrote: http://www.local6.com/news/15875360/detail.html
have at it !
I'll be frank...if the Lord Jesus Christ as his Mother the Holy Virgin Mary can only come to earth and show themselves as pieces of toast, wood grain, and a reflection then their powers were vastly exaggerated.
lol...still, he showed himself as a cheeto about two weeks ago Seriously, how do you explain that not one person, but many people at different times during this hour or so saw the same thing- Jesus crying.
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P.VanTassell
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 01:40 pm |
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Razorback75 wrote: I do not agree with your "two groups of people" theory.
I don't belong to either one.
I am sure that there is an afterlife. I am not afraid. I have faith.
When I go to church I am there in community with others who believe as I do, and who joyfully come together to worship and praise, to help and comfort and to learn.
But you don't have to be part of an organized religion to have faith or to believe in God. I respect the paths that others take.
The saddest and most frightening person I ever met truly believed that there was no God and no afterlife. He is now serving a life sentence for murder. He is in prision because had no respect for life and no compassion for other human beings, living only to satisfy his own needs and desires.
Now fair is fair, if we are to assume that not all people fit the categories that I have put forth then we must also assume that not all Atheists fit the description that you have offered.
I agree that not all people are either afraid of death or not but in general, not regarding the exceptions to the rule, people are afraid of death and religion heals that uncertainty.
Now I would hope that you would agree that not all Atheists are selfish unloving human beings.
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Razorback75
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 01:34 pm |
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I do not agree with your "two groups of people" theory.
I don't belong to either one.
I am sure that there is an afterlife. I am not afraid. I have faith.
When I go to church I am there in community with others who believe as I do, and who joyfully come together to worship and praise, to help and comfort and to learn.
But you don't have to be part of an organized religion to have faith or to believe in God. I respect the paths that others take.
The saddest and most frightening person I ever met truly believed that there was no God and no afterlife. He is now serving a life sentence for murder. He is in prision because had no respect for life and no compassion for other human beings, living only to satisfy his own needs and desires.
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P.VanTassell
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 02:12 am |
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Mitch4 wrote: http://www.local6.com/news/15875360/detail.html
have at it !
I'll be frank...if the Lord Jesus Christ as his Mother the Holy Virgin Mary can only come to earth and show themselves as pieces of toast, wood grain, and a reflection then their powers were vastly exaggerated.
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P.VanTassell
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 02:09 am |
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Conjeel, I understand what you are saying, believe me I do.
I think that Atheism and Atheists are not to be looked down upon. There is a vast majority of Atheists who are good people.
The battle over religion can be summed up as I said before of people in two groups.
Group One: People who are afraid that this is it, that our lives are a random collection of happenstance and when we die every thought we ever had is gone. Those people NEED religion.
Group Two: People who can deal with this life on Earth as all we have. And while you're here you better make the most of it because when you are dead and everyone that knew you is dead you just as well never existed. These people do NOT need religion.
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Razorback75
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 10:03 pm |
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I am no minister.
I do believe in God. I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
And I do try to live my faith.
I don't push my beliefs on anyone else uninvited. But since this thread is an open discussion, I see no reason not to participate.
So much of what some people think is "in the Bible" just isn't there. It's in movies and television and other books. The devil and the version of hell that some ministers describe is not in the Bible -- at least not in My King James version.
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Mitch4
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 08:51 pm |
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http://www.local6.com/news/15875360/detail.html
have at it !
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Mitch4
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 08:24 pm |
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Razorback75 wrote: Angels are beings created by God. They are often his messengers. The King James version of the Bible only names three (Michael, Gabriel and Raphael) but other Jewish texts name a few more, such as Uriel and Camael.
Saints are people who died and went to heaven. They have no 'powers' but are thought to sometimes intercede with God on behalf of humans. That is why people pray to the saints -- to ask for their intercession. The Catholic Church recognizes "cannonized" saints who have at least three earthly miracles attributed to them. However these saints are no more important than those whose names we do not know.
People wrote the Bible of course. It is a compilation of a number of texts. Around the year 325, the four gospels, the Jewish texts (basically the old Testament) some letters and other writings were gathered into one book which became the Bible. Two of the gospels (John and Matthew) are eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus Christ.
Over the years, these writings have been translated many times.
Early Christians also agreed on the Nicean creed (at the council of Nicea) which states the basic beliefs of Christians. (We believe in God, the father Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ, his own Son, our Lord ... etc.)
God is the all powerful creator of the universe who always way, and always will be. How something can have no end or no beginning is perhaps beyond human understanding.
If you have faith in God, you don't need proof.
If you don't have faith, no amount of proof will ever convince you.
If I did not know better, I could swear this was my father in law writing this- but I know it's not, but your 100% on target.
I well step my toes out a bit and "guess" you are a minister of some sort.
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Razorback75
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 05:27 pm |
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Angels are beings created by God. They are often his messengers. The King James version of the Bible only names three (Michael, Gabriel and Raphael) but other Jewish texts name a few more, such as Uriel and Camael.
Saints are people who died and went to heaven. They have no 'powers' but are thought to sometimes intercede with God on behalf of humans. That is why people pray to the saints -- to ask for their intercession. The Catholic Church recognizes "cannonized" saints who have at least three earthly miracles attributed to them. However these saints are no more important than those whose names we do not know.
People wrote the Bible of course. It is a compilation of a number of texts. Around the year 325, the four gospels, the Jewish texts (basically the old Testament) some letters and other writings were gathered into one book which became the Bible. Two of the gospels (John and Matthew) are eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus Christ.
Over the years, these writings have been translated many times.
Early Christians also agreed on the Nicean creed (at the council of Nicea) which states the basic beliefs of Christians. (We believe in God, the father Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ, his own Son, our Lord ... etc.)
God is the all powerful creator of the universe who always way, and always will be. How something can have no end or no beginning is perhaps beyond human understanding.
If you have faith in God, you don't need proof.
If you don't have faith, no amount of proof will ever convince you.
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conjeel
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 12:44 pm |
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van Tassel: it might now be only me and you... we'll see...
I thought I'd get personal and give you some reasons as to why I've done these posts in public and perhaps got a bit "rude" as people put it... it was quite purposeful. Here goes:
Put your self in my shoes for a few minutes. Not that hard... all you need to do is imagine you have two related points of view: (a) You believe God is imaginary... a human delusion. and (b) you believe that blind faith and religion have caused a lot of harm throughout human history.. and this continues in the modern age -- witness the war in Iraq, Palestine - Israel, Iran, stem cell research, etc. etc.
You also have to imagine you live in the Okeechobee area and you have those points of view. Now... picture this:
All my life I've been bombarded by religion and faith-based views. Its everywhere, even if you don't go to Church. Its on billboards, its on the radio, its in the newspapers, its in school.... Bible Classes, religious teachers who simply can't keep their religion to themselves. Its in public discourse (the Republican candidates for President were asked if they believe in evolution ! And most of them answered no !!). When I was on the baseball team in High School the coach led the team in prayers every day. Prayers ! so that Jesus would prevent bad hops at shortstop! And when I expressed discomfort, I was looked at like I was weird.
Imagine you believe what I believe and that religious people are often bombarding you with how only they have "truth." They know the ways of the Universe and people who understand science and can design cell phones don't. Boy.... THAT'll drive you crazy... especially when the people who know the "truth" are themselves ignorant rednecks and you yourself have forgotten more than these people will ever know.
and know one seems to have the courage to tell these religious types they are delusional. I know I didn't.
So when I heard that looney preacher at Eli's service and saw some of the posts on this blog... I decided to go for it. Someone needs to present the other side. If you don't tweak people once in a while, nothing happens.
So for whatever it's worth... I got rude.
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P.VanTassell
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 11:03 pm |
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IMHO wrote: Nice graphic Mr. VanT, but I don't know that the Om is a religious symbol.
You could call me on it if I had made it...however a google image search of religion will give you the picture.
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IMHO
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 10:16 pm |
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| Nice graphic Mr. VanT, but I don't know that the Om is a religious symbol.
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P.VanTassell
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 09:56 pm |
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conjeel wrote: Mr. van Tassel: One comment adout your comment: "be easier to have a civilized discussion if you didn't refer to religious icons as 'goblins and spooks'" Well ok... I want to be civilized... but I don't see the insult... I don't go around talking about supernatural beings -- religious people do. From your posts you don't seem to be that religious, so I'll refer to others -- if religious people believe "goblins and spooks" don't exist, or that I'm insulting them by claiming that, then clearly they have some means of differentiating one supernatural being from another. I'd like to hear about that. cause to me it seems difficult considering that modern religion has many many supernatural beings (or "religious icons" as you put it), so how can you say that goblins and spooks don't exist, but others do? I'd like to list some of the supernatural beings.. you tell me which ones are real and which ones are not real, like goblins and spooks:
1) God is obviously a "supernatural being", since he has all-encompassing powers and can grant wishes.
2) Jesus, likewise.
3) What about the Saints? My grandmother prays to the Saints every day. Clearly she believes they are "supernatural" beings.
4) What about the Devil? He is a central figure in many Southern Baptist church sermons. Is he a supernatural being separate from God and / or Jesus?
5) Who runs Hell ? Hell is also a central figure in Church services... who administers the tortures Hell is famous for? Regular guys? Or maybe its... goblins
6) What about angels? In a recent survey 70% of Americans stated they believe angels walk among us and that they have seen them.
7) Also in recent surveys... many people believe they have talked to their (dead) loved ones...
So... if we re-name "ghosts" as "spooks"... I think we've got it covered
Yes, that run-around comparison holds water, however, these are things that people put their everything into believing. They spend their lives praying to their God and that can't be then dumbed down to spooks and ghosts. Its just disrespect.
You might not like their views but you should at least respect them when discussing it.
Last edited on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 09:57 pm by P.VanTassell
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P.VanTassell
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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Now you have a thread.
Have at it!
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