| Author | Post |
|---|
Bilgerat
Member
|
Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 07:48 pm |
|
okeegator wrote: 4string wrote: Yeah Flip Flopping to change your mind on an issue, don't we all change over the years in what we think about things? I know I don't feel the same about a lot of things as I did when I was 20, or 30, or even 5 years ago. I am open to new ideas or to change my view on some old ones. Who knows I could all of the sudden decide I want McCain in there never know what the future brings or tomorrow for that fact. But I wouldn't count on me Voting for McCain too much.
People change their positions based on the facts. Politicians change their opinions based on the polls.
And when they're not kissing babies they're stealing their lollipops 
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 07:43 pm |
|
4string wrote: Yeah Flip Flopping to change your mind on an issue, don't we all change over the years in what we think about things? I know I don't feel the same about a lot of things as I did when I was 20, or 30, or even 5 years ago. I am open to new ideas or to change my view on some old ones. Who knows I could all of the sudden decide I want McCain in there never know what the future brings or tomorrow for that fact. But I wouldn't count on me Voting for McCain too much.
People change their positions based on the facts. Politicians change their opinions based on the polls.
|
4string
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 582 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 07:17 pm |
|
| Yeah Flip Flopping to change your mind on an issue, don't we all change over the years in what we think about things? I know I don't feel the same about a lot of things as I did when I was 20, or 30, or even 5 years ago. I am open to new ideas or to change my view on some old ones. Who knows I could all of the sudden decide I want McCain in there never know what the future brings or tomorrow for that fact. But I wouldn't count on me Voting for McCain too much.
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 04:57 pm |
|
4string wrote:
Maybe the Flip Floppers, thats what you are called in politics when you use the freedom to change your mind.
Flip Floppers = Politicians
|
4string
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 582 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 04:18 pm |
|
True too much of any thing is not good. I think we will soon see the rise of a third party here , right now we independents are the closest thing, but soon we too will be labeled with a belief system and hard liners will rise and become one sided like the hard liners of the other parties, and I'll have to find some thing else to be called.
Maybe the Flip Floppers, thats what you are called in politics when you use the freedom to change your mind.
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 03:05 pm |
|
4string wrote: I used Billionaires as an example, the more they have the more unwilling they are to give it up. If the wealth of the US was distributed evenly we would all be millionaires. Look at the Seminole Tribes they can live very well off their dividends checks. Although I don't believe we should just be given the money as they are. Each should contribute to working toward the good of the whole. This is all just a fantasy any way. It would take a complete mind set change that could never happen because of again humane nature.
What you said is true Gator. No one system is a complete answer in its self. With communism what is the motivating factor to cause some one to want to achieve in life and not just get by with a minimum effort, as many in the USSR did. Their government had to set quotas which made for poor quality. The worker didn't care about how good some thing was just how many.
Any system of government I believe must be a Democracy. Job security for leaders is and has been proven to be a dangerous thing. Ours is not perfect, but it works, with at least two major parties each with differing beliefs it brings a some what kind of balance.
All in all the U.S. to me is the best working system around. I have traveled the world and would live no place else.
Shoot, even pure democracy is dangerous. That's why the Founding Fathers set the U.S. up as a republic.
|
4string
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 582 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 01:15 pm |
|
I used Billionaires as an example, the more they have the more unwilling they are to give it up. If the wealth of the US was distributed evenly we would all be millionaires. Look at the Seminole Tribes they can live very well off their dividends checks. Although I don't believe we should just be given the money as they are. Each should contribute to working toward the good of the whole. This is all just a fantasy any way. It would take a complete mind set change that could never happen because of again humane nature.
What you said is true Gator. No one system is a complete answer in its self. With communism what is the motivating factor to cause some one to want to achieve in life and not just get by with a minimum effort, as many in the USSR did. Their government had to set quotas which made for poor quality. The worker didn't care about how good some thing was just how many.
Any system of government I believe must be a Democracy. Job security for leaders is and has been proven to be a dangerous thing. Ours is not perfect, but it works, with at least two major parties each with differing beliefs it brings a some what kind of balance.
All in all the U.S. to me is the best working system around. I have traveled the world and would live no place else.
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Sat Jul 26th, 2008 02:03 am |
|
Don't misunderstand me OkeeGator, it isn't my dream either.
On paper or in action it doesn't work for me.
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 08:51 pm |
|
P.VanTassell wrote: 4string hit the nail on the head.
On paper Communism is the Utopia we "dream of", shall we say? It's not the one I dream of.
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 08:50 pm |
|
4string wrote: As I said it is a good idea in concept, but would never really work, due to human nature. It would take honest politicians, and billionaires willing to not be billionaires any more. Why only billionaires? Anyone who is ahead of the curve, regardless of how far ahead they are, would be forced to give up what they had. We couldn't have that now could we? How would we know who is better than who? I mean how could they judge their own importance to the community as a whole unless their house, car, and other possessions were bigger, and better?
The American way is not all it is advertised, nor truly practiced by all Americans.
Freedom of speech, as long as it dose not offend me.
Freedom of religion, as long as its the same god as mine.
All men are created equal, But those who have more get a little more equality.
In the end, one can claim that any ideology on paper is a great idea. That's the whole point. But purist ideologies do not and cannot take into account the complexities of human nature. That's why I don't trust purists - they are unrealistic, or "dreamers", as John Lennon said. They are too dismissive of ideologies that offer alternative solutions to problems - just like political party diehards. One can find plenty of problems with capitalism - unregulated capitalism can be dangerous. Take any ideology - libertarianism, socialism, fascism, communism, capitalism, liberalism, conservatism - none should be trusted fully but some have proven their worth because they are more realistic.
Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 08:57 pm by okeegator
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 08:34 pm |
|
4string wrote: I have listen to it many times. Communism in its true form is actually a great idea. It is just the fact that the main country to try it was an enemy of ours, and was run by corrupt leaders. So there for was look at as evil by the U.S. When allot of other countries see our capitalist ways as evil. The main reason it dose not work is because of human nature. There is always those who want more than every one else, as well as those who do not want to contribute and still want what every one else is getting. Star Trek is communist based or at least socialist, every one working for a common good, no money, and every one has all they need.
So let me understand your reasoning:
Does communism not work because it was tried in the wrong countries or
because of human nature?
Any true Marxist can tell you that communism did not work in the Soviet Union because Russia was not ready yet to be a communist state and because the Russian communists became tyrannical, unwilling to give up power. Marx thought that communism would arise in industrial-capitalist countries like Germany, Great Britain, the U.S. or maybe France. Not in a predominantly agricultural society like Russia.
Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 08:56 pm by okeegator
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 08:19 pm |
|
4string hit the nail on the head.
On paper Communism is the Utopia we "dream of", shall we say?
However, it is not in human nature to work with one another and create this paradise of happiness.
If you take a group of people and let them loose there will always be a leader. A good one and a bad one. A community will always split into factions.
For a good example read "Lord of the Flies" or "The Wave".
|
4string
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 582 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 06:12 pm |
|
As I said it is a good idea in concept, but would never really work, due to human nature. It would take honest politicians, and billionaires willing to not be billionaires any more. We couldn't have that now could we? How would we know who is better than who? I mean how could they judge their own importance to the community as a whole unless their house, car, and other possessions were bigger, and better?
The American way is not all it is advertised, nor truly practiced by all Americans.
Freedom of speech, as long as it dose not offend me.
Freedom of religion, as long as its the same god as mine.
All men are created equal, But those who have more get a little more equality.
Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 06:35 pm by 4string
|
flsr
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 758 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 02:50 pm |
|
4string wrote: I have listen to it many times. Communism in its true form is actually a great idea. It is just the fact that the main country to try it was an enemy of ours, and was run by corrupt leaders. So there for was look at as evil by the U.S. When allot of other countries see our capitalist ways as evil. The main reason it dose not work is because of human nature. There is always those who want more than every one else,(and are willing to work for it) as well as those who do not want to contribute and still want what every one else is getting. Star Trek is communist based or at least socialist, every one working for a common good, no money, and every one has all they need.Kind of puts you in mind of Cuba, doesn't it?
|
4string
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 582 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 02:40 pm |
|
| I have listen to it many times. Communism in its true form is actually a great idea. It is just the fact that the main country to try it was an enemy of ours, and was run by corrupt leaders. So there for was look at as evil by the U.S. When allot of other countries see our capitalist ways as evil. The main reason it dose not work is because of human nature. There is always those who want more than every one else, as well as those who do not want to contribute and still want what every one else is getting. Star Trek is communist based or at least socialist, every one working for a common good, no money, and every one has all they need.
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 06:39 pm |
|
4string wrote: The John Lennon song Imagine comes to mind. Give it a listen some time.
Sure, if you like communism. Listen to the whole song.
|
BassB
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 18th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 99 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 06:16 pm |
|
Hindu was first, about 3000 BC Judaisim was around 2000 BC, then Christians, and then Islam was about 750 AD. Of course you had all those pagan religions for ceturies before the Hindu's
|
4string
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 582 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 05:58 pm |
|
The John Lennon song Imagine comes to mind. Give it a listen some time.
Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 06:02 pm by 4string
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 03:28 am |
|
Razorback75 wrote: According to Time magazine, in 2008 Islam did become the world's largest religion, replacing Catholicism. However, if you lump all Christians together (including Catholics, Protestants, Church of England etc.) then there still might be more Christians. It depends on how you are counting a "religion."
Counting Christians is very simple - Protestant, Catholic and any other group proclaiming themselves as followers of Christ are Christians. Therefore, "lump" away.
|
Bilgerat
Member
|
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 01:35 am |
|
P.VanTassell wrote: Bilgerat wrote: If you want to avoid the "racist" and "small minded" attacks, just do as I do.
It's very easy
Trust and believe in yourself, ANYONE else is suspect and bears watching
My favorite adage,
"I only trust two people, me and you"
"And I'm watching you"
Always the one to come in and sum up the entire thread in one post.
Thank You for another excellent phrase to add to my repertoire.
I have another one for you
Professionals can be predictable
But the world is full of Amateurs.
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 01:30 am |
|
Bilgerat wrote: If you want to avoid the "racist" and "small minded" attacks, just do as I do.
It's very easy
Trust and believe in yourself, ANYONE else is suspect and bears watching
My favorite adage,
"I only trust two people, me and you"
"And I'm watching you"
Always the one to come in and sum up the entire thread in one post.
Thank You for another excellent phrase to add to my repertoire.
|
Bilgerat
Member
|
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 01:24 am |
|
If you want to avoid the "racist" and "small minded" attacks, just do as I do.
It's very easy
Trust and believe in yourself, ANYONE else is suspect and bears watching
My favorite adage,
"I only trust two people, me and you"
"And I'm watching you"
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 01:21 am |
|
flsr wrote: 2001 was quite a year for me, but Istill wouldn't say I was paranoid. For anybody to even board a plane nowadays is pretty risky due to the skimpy maintenace, and all the other factors I decribed before. Some of my kids won't even fly, but if I can get to Grand Rapids, MI in 4 or 5 hours, ole Grandma is coming, come hell or high water.
In Aug. of 2001 my nephew was murdered out in Texas. We flew out to attend the funeral. America's Most Wanted gave another report on this a couple weeks ago. I'm keeping my eye out for the murderer here. Many felons like to live in Fl, but of course I won't mention any famous names.
Along about Labor Day of 2001 my oldest son came down with encephalitis and nearly died. Then the planes were hijacked. You can believe I was afraid to fly. There was nothing to do but get in the car and drive it, alone, as I usually am. On the last day out I left a motel near Oak Ridge Tennessee and hit Lansing, Michigan about 6pm. Now to you people who do not believe in God, close your eyes, because I am going to tell you God was with me. I took the proper exit off the expressway in Lansing and drove right to the hospital with not one wrong turn. I had never been there before.
The only thing that I am paranoid about is the safety of my children and grandchildren. And if any of you youngsters want to count lines or make any other silly statements you can stick them up your a$$.
You've got one over on me here.
In 2001 I was in 7th grade Science Class when the news came through.
I didn't have a full understanding of what was happening but I knew it was important.
2001 was a hard time for all America. We were under attack, I mean really under attack. Another country came to us and killed our people. Of course you can be afraid then. I knew we were under attack but I was young and didn't know what this meant for the future. I had no idea it was terrorists, I didn't even know what one was, I didn't know we were going to war, and I didn't know that when I got my drivers licence my first tank of gas would be $2.40/gal.
However, with the understanding we have now of those responsible and those connected there is no reason to be afraid of an Arab on a plane. You know yourself that every man, woman, and child would get up and tear his head off if he tried anything.
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 01:15 am |
|
Zarawer wrote: flsr wrote:Every time I see one of those turban heads I am afraid to board the same plane, but I guess that makes me extreme, narrowminded and whatever else you youngsters may think up to describe me.
Yes, yes it makes you ignorant and narrowminded. And an old fogey.
Not everyone is out to get you and downing someone for their religion is the mindset of a bigot.
Also, I never said Islam was the oldest religion in the world. I said most studied and fastest growing. I'm fairly certain that oldest still practiced religion goes to hindu's.
Also, "Turban(sic) Heads"? You're just proving my point. You are narrowminded and ignorant. Thats racist and paranoia.
|
flsr
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 758 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 10:02 pm |
|
2001 was quite a year for me, but Istill wouldn't say I was paranoid. For anybody to even board a plane nowadays is pretty risky due to the skimpy maintenace, and all the other factors I decribed before. Some of my kids won't even fly, but if I can get to Grand Rapids, MI in 4 or 5 hours, ole Grandma is coming, come hell or high water.
In Aug. of 2001 my nephew was murdered out in Texas. We flew out to attend the funeral. America's Most Wanted gave another report on this a couple weeks ago. I'm keeping my eye out for the murderer here. Many felons like to live in Fl, but of course I won't mention any famous names.
Along about Labor Day of 2001 my oldest son came down with encephalitis and nearly died. Then the planes were hijacked. You can believe I was afraid to fly. There was nothing to do but get in the car and drive it, alone, as I usually am. On the last day out I left a motel near Oak Ridge Tennessee and hit Lansing, Michigan about 6pm. Now to you people who do not believe in God, close your eyes, because I am going to tell you God was with me. I took the proper exit off the expressway in Lansing and drove right to the hospital with not one wrong turn. I had never been there before.
The only thing that I am paranoid about is the safety of my children and grandchildren. And if any of you youngsters want to count lines or make any other silly statements you can stick them up your a$$.
|
OkeeNarnie
Member
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 06:57 pm |
|
Zarawer wrote: flsr wrote:Every time I see one of those turban heads I am afraid to board the same plane, but I guess that makes me extreme, narrowminded and whatever else you youngsters may think up to describe me.
Sounds like you exhibit signs of Social Paranoia. They have medication and counseling to help you with that.
Do you fly on commercial airlines often? I used to fly several times a year. I haven't since 9-11. Am I paranoid? I don 't think that is the word I would use. After 9-11 a great number of Americans changed their way of doing things. If I were to book a flight I would be very cautious of boarding a plane with middle eastern passengers. I would probably choose to take another flight, or maybe just drive as I have since 9-11. I don't think anyone is narrowminded because they choose to watch out for thier own safety. Today you have to follow your instinct and go with your gut feelings. If you take the same flight every day and get a bad feeling about it one morning? You should call in sick.
I believe in Murphy's Law, it seems to apply to me.
After finding out the pilots trained here.. out of Vero and used Okeechobee's airport for landing and take off practice. We see that all the time by students. Well I just think on the ground is safer then 30,000 feet up. I know they can attack here on the ground but the fall is shorter and the landing might be softer if my feet are on the ground to begin with.
|
Razorback75
Member
| Joined: | Wed Dec 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 583 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 06:42 pm |
|
| According to Time magazine, in 2008 Islam did become the world's largest religion, replacing Catholicism. However, if you lump all Christians together (including Catholics, Protestants, Church of England etc.) then there still might be more Christians. It depends on how you are counting a "religion."
|
Zarawer
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 06:17 pm |
|
flsr wrote:Every time I see one of those turban heads I am afraid to board the same plane, but I guess that makes me extreme, narrowminded and whatever else you youngsters may think up to describe me.
Sounds like you exhibit signs of Social Paranoia. They have medication and counseling to help you with that.
|
flsr
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 758 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 06:08 pm |
|
4string wrote: Blaming every Muslim for the extremist actions is like blaming every Christian for the Salem witch trials, or the crusades.( which by the way is one of the things their pissed about still) Thinking every Muslim is an extremist, is like saying all southern Baptist are members of the KKK. Thereare good and bad in every way of life, but to group all people of a group because of the actions of a few is very narrow minded.
I agree, but do you know how to sort them out?
When I get on a plane, I have to get my shoes examined, make sure my alcohol gel and any other toiletries are not of a capacity to manufacture something deadly during the trip. The last time I flew, we were brought back in the terminal,(because of Northwest's rickety old planes), and rebooked on another airline. I was treated like a potential highjacker because I had passed the checkpoint before and bought a bottle of water, still had it. I had put my toiletries in my denim bag inside my purse, they were no longer in the little quart baggie. Now I'm tellin ya, I looked like a real security risk. Security has to worry about offending the turbanheads and lawsuits and all the rest.
Every time I see one of those turban heads I am afraid to board the same plane, but I guess that makes me extreme, narrowminded and whatever else you youngsters may think up to describe me.
|
okeegator
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 992 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 06:01 pm |
|
flsr wrote: P.VanTassell wrote:
Are you aware that Islam is the most practiced Religion in the world? Did you know that Islam is the most studied Religion in the world? Did you know that these facts have remained true since the 70's?
How could I know that Islam is the oldest and most practiced religion in the world? I am too old and not supposed to know anything.
Islam is neither the oldest (started in the 7th century) nor the largest (check links below).
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm
It could qualify as the fastest growing religion, however.
|
flsr
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 758 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:44 pm |
|
P.VanTassell wrote: For the person promoting their religion in every post you sure are intolerant of other's beliefs.
Looky, there's that word again, intolerant.
You are linking a calendar...with terrorists operating from mosques.
2+2=7
If it isn't your religion it must be bad right?
Are you aware that Islam is the most practiced Religion in the world? Did you know that Islam is the most studied Religion in the world? Did you know that these facts have remained true since the 70's?
Go rent the movie "Jesus Camp" and then come back and talk about extremist religions.
I'll wait.
Religion.... BTW, what is yours? It's hard to answer people who obviously do not believe in Jesus, but I will give you this answer. Jesus was not tolerant of people who believed in other than He and His Father.
How could I know that Islam is the oldest and most practiced religion in the world? I am too old and not supposed to know anything.
I'll pass on the movie until it comes on regular TV. I don't like putting rented DVD's or VCR tapes in my equipment. Too much peanut butter and jelly on them. Other than the calendar, you must not have taken note of the "documentary" I referred to which Fox News showed after PBS refused to because they were afraid it may offend the faint hearted. You wouldn't come under this classification would you?
Not trying to promote any religion, but I do say to God, Thy Kingdom Come. And please hurry. I hope he considers me worthy of at least an hours life to see the surprise on some faces who never believed it would happen.
|
4string
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 5th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 582 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 04:04 pm |
|
| Blaming every Muslim for the extremist actions is like blaming every Christian for the Salem witch trials, or the crusades.( which by the way is one of the things their pissed about still) Thinking every Muslim is an extremist, is like saying all southern Baptist are members of the KKK. Thereare good and bad in every way of life, but to group all people of a group because of the actions of a few is very narrow minded.
|
Zarawer
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 02:58 pm |
|
P.VanTassell wrote: For the person promoting their religion in every post you sure are intolerant of other's beliefs.
BAM! You going to take that?
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 02:56 pm |
|
For the person promoting their religion in every post you sure are intolerant of other's beliefs.
Looky, there's that word again, intolerant.
You are linking a calendar...with terrorists operating from mosques.
2+2=7
If it isn't your religion it must be bad right?
Are you aware that Islam is the most practiced Religion in the world? Did you know that Islam is the most studied Religion in the world? Did you know that these facts have remained true since the 70's?
Go rent the movie "Jesus Camp" and then come back and talk about extremist religions.
I'll wait.
Last edited on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 02:56 pm by P.VanTassell
|
flsr
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 758 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 01:12 pm |
|
Undercover Mosque
Broadcast: Monday 15 January
A Dispatches reporter attends mosques run by organisations whose public faces are presented as moderate and finds preachers condemning integration into British society, condemning democracy and praising the Taliban for killing British soldiers…
Dispatches has investigated a number of mosques run by high profile national organisations that claim to be dedicated to moderation and dialogue with other faiths. But an undercover reporter joined worshippers to find a message of religious bigotry and extremism being preached.
He captures chilling sermons in which Saudi-trained preachers proclaim the supremacy of Islam, preach hatred for non-Muslims and for Muslims who do not follow their extreme beliefs - and predict a coming jihad. "An army of Muslims will arise," announces one preacher. Another preacher said British Muslims must "dismantle" British democracy - they must "live like a state within a state" until they are "strong enough to take over."
The investigation reveals Saudi Arabian universities are recruiting young Western Muslims to train them in their extreme theology, then sending them back to the West to spread the word. And the Dispatches reporter discovers that British Muslims can ask for fatwas, religious rulings, direct from the top religious leader in Saudi Arabia, the Grand Mufti.
Saudi-trained preachers are also promoted in DVDs and books on sale at religious centres and sermons broadcast on websites. These publications and webcasts disseminate beliefs about women such as: "Allah has created the woman deficient, her intellect is incomplete", and girls: "By the age of 10 if she doesn’t wear hijab, we hit her," and there’s an extreme hostility towards homosexuals…
The program has now been posted on YouTube in its entirety in six parts:
|
flsr
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 758 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 12:51 pm |
|
GA_googleFillSlot("WND_NWS_C0100");
YOUR GOVERNMENT AT WORK
State Dept. promotes 'Mosques in America'
Publishes '09 calendar featuring worship sites for only 1 religion
Posted: July 18, 2008
12:10 am Eastern
© 2008 WorldNetDaily
This now available from the U.S. State Department: "2009 Mosques of America Wall Calendar: Limited Edition for Ramadan."
"Yep, you read that correctly. It's 'perfect for Muslim outreach efforts," according to a commentary at the Gates of Vienna blog. "Where's the ACLU on this one?"
Screen capture of State Department's offering of "Mosques of America" calendar
The product was being advertised by "Global Publishing Solutions," a division of the U.S. State Department, until bloggers started talking about the product.
Officials then apparently hid the page behind the security of a password-protected wall. However, a number of sources said the "offering" still was available in a Google cache of the website.
(Story continues below)
GA_googleFillSlot("WND_NWS_C0200");
According to the Gates of Vienna, the government advertised:
"In celebration of Ramadan, Global Publishing Solutions (GPS) is offering a limited edition of the 2009 Mosques in America Wall Calendar. This 12-month calendar is perfect for Muslim outreach efforts, as well as office and event giveaways.
"The wall calendar features a vibrant photograph or photomontage for each month, displaying the beauty of mosques in America. The upper half of the hanging calendar depicts mosque facades or interiors, and the lower half displays a monthly calendar grid. The 28-page calendar is saddle-stitched and measures 23 x 30 1/2 cm (9 x 12 inches).
"This item is on sale until August 1st, 2008 in shrink-wrapped packs of 20 pieces."
"Remember," said the Internet commentator, "This was on an official State Department (state.gov) web page. GPS describes itself this way: 'The Global Publishing Solutions, manages this site as a gateway to information and transactions for their U.S. State Department clients."
One page from the U.S. State Department's "Mosques of America" 2009 promotional calendar
On the site, Armance recommended, "My suggestion for the U.S. State Department is to adorn the calendar with equally vibrant Quranic verses and hadiths, samples of what is preached in those mosques. For example: January: Kill the infidels wherever you find them. February: Allah's Apostle said: I've been made victorious with terror – and so on and so forth."
At JihadWatch.org, the sudden disappearance was noted.
"Brian notes that the page has been pulled since he put his notice up at Snapped Shot yesterday. I still had it open and was able to capture the mosque image, but sure enough, it's gone now. As Brian remarks, it seems that the wise 'public servants' at State 'get all nervous when We, The People actually notice' what they're doing," the site said.
JihadWatch also made available captured screen shots of the top half as well as bottom half of the page.
"'The wall calendar features a vibrant photograph or photomontage for each month, displaying the beauty of mosques in America,'" wrote ImNoDhimmi on the website. "Now if that isn't enough to make you lose your breakfast, I don't know what is. There is nothing beautiful about mosques in America – or anywhere else in the West, for that matter."
"Since Islam is not really a religion, but a political ideology, the government's sale of an Islamocentric calendar evidently doesn't violate the separation of church and state. It's like selling photos of local Democratic Party Headquarters," added the Gates of Vienna.
"In fact, in certain precincts of Hamtramck and Brooklyn, those two types of institution may well be found at the same street address."
The cached page reveals the prices are $44 per pack if you order from 6-10 packs of 20.
|
flsr
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 758 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 12:37 pm |
|
| Talk to the guy who produced the article about the Muslim mosques being built here in America and how they are and intending to use them. Check it out and you will have a better idea of what is extreme.
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 11:38 am |
|
flsr, that is an extreme and you know it.
Losing this war won't mean the end of free speech. We are in no danger of losing that or our general rights.
|
flsr
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 758 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 11:17 am |
|
| I do not support the ragheads who started it. If we lose we can kiss the forums goodbye and any other form of free speech. At least with our heads still on(some of us, anyway) we can still voice our opinions.
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 01:11 am |
|
I do agree with Icare also.
Not supporting the Bush Admin. or this War makes you no less patriotic. The conservatives want us to think that not supporting the war means we don't support the troops.
Me?
I neither support the war nor the administration.
However;
I do support the soilders, this is their job, they are doing it well and it is something that must be done. No matter what the reasoning is. We're at war and I support the troops.
I do not support President Bush however. Or his war.
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 01:08 am |
|
OkeeNarnie wrote: P.VanTassell wrote: okeegator wrote: Everyone's entitled - even when they are wrong.
A comment after my own heart .
Also, tl;dr OkeeNarnie. I'm sure there is a good message in it but tl;dr.
PVT, what does tl;dr mean? I am lost on this one. I can usually figure out what most of the abbreviations mean.
Sorry, should have added the definition. Its a pretty obscure abbreviation.
tl;dr = Too Long; Didn't Read
However I have since read the post and enjoyed it very much so the phrase no longer applies. However, you learned a new abbreviation now.
|
OkeeNarnie
Member
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 08:06 pm |
|
P.VanTassell wrote: okeegator wrote: Everyone's entitled - even when they are wrong.
A comment after my own heart.
Also, tl;dr OkeeNarnie. I'm sure there is a good message in it but tl;dr.
PVT, what does tl;dr mean? I am lost on this one. I can usually figure out what most of the abbreviations mean.
|
Icare
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 24th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 245 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:46 pm |
|
OkeeNarnie wrote: From the wife of a serviceman....
I was sitting alone in one of those loud, casual steak houses that you find all over the country. You know the type--a bucket of peanuts on every table, shells littering the floor, and a bunch of perky college kids racing around with long neck beers and sizzling platters.
Taking a sip of my iced tea, I studied the crowd over the rim of my glass. My gaze lingered on a group enjoying their meal. They wore no uniform to identify their branch of service, but they were definitely "military:" clean shaven, cropped haircut, and that "squared away" look that comes with pride
Smiling sadly, I glanced across my table to the empty seat where my husband usually sat. It had only been a few months since we sat in this very booth, talking about his upcoming deployment to the Middle East . That was when he made me promise to get a sitter for the kids, come back to this restaurant once a month and treat myself to a nice steak. In turn he would treasure the thought of me being here, thinking about him until he returned home.
I fingered the little flag pin I constantly wear and wondered where he was at this very moment. Was he safe and warm? Was his cold any better? Were my letters getting through to him?
As I pondered these thoughts, high pitched female voices from the next booth broke into my thoughts. "I don't know what Bush is thinking about. Invading Iraq . You'd think that man would learn from his old man's mistakes. Good Lord. What an idiot! I can't believe he is even in office. You do know, he stole the election."
I cut into my steak and tried to ignore them as they began an endless tirade running down our president.
I thought about the last night I spent with my husband, as he prepared to deploy. He had just returned from getting his smallpox and anthrax shots. The image of him standing in our kitchen packing his gas mask still gives me chills.
Once again the women's voices invaded my thoughts.
"It's all about oil, you know. Our soldiers will go in and rape and steal all the oil they can in the name of 'freedom'. Hmmm! I wonder how many innocent people they'll kill without giving it a thought. It's pure greed, you know."
My chest tightened as I stared at my wedding ring. I could still see how handsome my husband looked in his "mess dress" the day he slipped it on my finger I wondered what he was wearing now. Probably his desert uniform, affectionately dubbed "coffee stains" with a heavy bulletproof vest over it.
"You know, we should just leave Iraq alone. I don't think they are hiding any weapons. In fact, I bet it's all a big act just to increase the president's popularity. That's all it is, padding the military budget at the expense of our social security and education. And, you know what else? We're just asking for another 9-11. I can't say when it happens again that we didn't deserve it."
Their words brought to mind the war protesters I had watched gathering outside our base. Did no one even appreciate the sacrifice of brave men and women, who leave their homes and family to ensure our freedom? Do they even know what "freedom" is?
I glanced at the table where the young men were sitting, and saw their courageous faces change. They had stopped eating and looked at each other dejectedly, listening to the women talking.
"Well, I, for one, think it's just deplorable to invade Iraq , and I am certainly sick of our tax dollars going to train professional baby-killers we call a military."
Professional baby-killers. I thought about what a wonderful father my husband is, and of how long it would be before he would see our children again.
That's it! Indignation rose up inside me Normally reserved, pride in my husband gave me a brassy boldness I never realized I had. Tonight one voice will answer on behalf of our military, and let her pride in our troops be known.
Sliding out of my booth, I walked around to the adjoining booth and placed my hands flat on their table. Lowering myself to eye level with them, smiling I said, "I couldn't help overhearing your conversation. You see, I'm sitting here trying to enjoy my dinner alone. And, do you know why? Because my husband, whom I love with all my heart, is halfway around the world defending your right to say rotten things about him."
"Yes, you have the right to your opinion, and what you think is none of my business. However, what you say in public is something else, and I will not sit by and listen to you ridicule MY country, MY president, MY husband, and all the other fine American men and women who put their lives on the line, just so you can have the "freedom" to complain. Freedom is an expensive commodity, ladies. Don't let your actions cheapen it."
I must have been louder than I meant to be, because the manager came over to inquire if everything was all right
"Yes, thank you," I replied.
Then, turning back to the women, I said, "Enjoy the rest of your meal."
As I returned to my booth applause broke out. I was embarrassed for making a scene, and went back to my half eaten steak. The women picked up their check and scurried away.
After finishing my meal, and while waiting for my check, the manager returned with a huge apple cobbler ala mode. "Compliments of those soldiers," he said. He also smiled and said the ladies tried to pay for my dinner, but that another couple had beaten them to it.
When I asked who, the manager said they had already left, but that the gentleman was a veteran, and wanted to take care of the wife of "one of our boys."
With a lump in my throat, I gratefully turned to the soldiers and thanked them for the cobbler. Grinning from ear to ear, they came over and surrounded the booth.
"We just wanted to thank you, ma'am. You know we can't get into confrontations with civilians, so we appreciate what you did."
As I drove home, for the first time since my husband's deployment, I didn't feel quite so alone. My heart was filled with the warmth of the other diners who stopped by my table, to relate how they, too, were proud of my husband, and would keep him in their prayers.
I knew their flags would fly a little higher the next day. Perhaps they would look for more tangible ways to show their pride in our country, and the military that protect her. And maybe, just maybe, the two women who were railing against our country would pause for a minute to appreciate all the freedom America offers, and the price it pays to maintain its freedom.
As for me, I have learned that one voice CAN make a difference.
Maybe the next time protesters gather outside the gates of the base where I live, I will proudly stand on the opposite side with a sign of my own. It will simply say, "Thank You!"
To those who fought for our nation, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
To those of you who never fought, Maybe your too young to remember the time this country drafted our soldiers into the Military. Or maybe you just take for granted all the rights and freedoms you enjoy every day. To you I say...
Think before you speak. It is much better to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
GOD BLESS AMERICA !
More propaganda. Sounds like a bid to get war supporters to bully others into staying silent.
Once again, not supporting this administration and not supporting this war doesn't mean we don't support the troops.
|
P.VanTassell
Member
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:43 pm |
|
okeegator wrote: Everyone's entitled - even when they are wrong.
A comment after my own heart.
Also, tl;dr OkeeNarnie. I'm sure there is a good message in it but tl;dr.
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:44 pm by P.VanTassell
|
OkeeNarnie
Member
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:23 pm |
|