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okeegator
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 03:28 am |
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Southern Diva wrote: For those of us born in the south the Confederate Flag means something in one manner or another, just because some... people view it as racism others view it as history/heritage, and if your ancestors settled in Tenn, you should be proud of all aspects of your heritage, just remember if it was not for history the stars and stripes may not have ever been  , just something to think about, Okee your a teacher you should understand that alot of people take different views on different items, as your outlook and mine will be totally different on one or more things....
I appreciate your points. I am proud of my heritage - Southern, Northern, and the rest. As I have said, I find the Confederate flag to be a relic of a past of which one should not be proud, be it racism or treason.
If it was not for history, nothing would have been or would be. But the U.S. was better off without the CSA.
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Southern Diva
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 01:52 am |
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| For those of us born in the south the Confederate Flag means something in one manner or another, just because some... people view it as racism others view it as history/heritage, and if your ancestors settled in Tenn, you should be proud of all aspects of your heritage, just remember if it was not for history the stars and stripes may not have ever been , just something to think about, Okee your a teacher you should understand that alot of people take different views on different items, as your outlook and mine will be totally different on one or more things....
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 10:41 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: you are right there it was not about slavery.
"MYTH - The War of 1861 - 1865 was fought over slavery.
FACT - Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion."
Fact: It was fought by the North to reunite the nation it was fought by the South to remain separate. Since Southern leaders had violated their oaths to uphold the Constitution and committed the treasonous act of secession, the Northern leaders were bound to preserve the Union for the good of everyone. I think subsequent history bears that out - the North and South were much better together than apart. Wouldn't you agree?
I must disagree with you both. If you read the "DECLARATION OF THE IMMEDIATE CAUSES WHICH INDUCE AND JUSTIFY THE SECESSION OF SOUTH CAROLINA FROM THE FEDERAL UNION," December 24, 1860, you cannot help but conclude that the primary reason for secession was for the preservation of slavery. Ever since losing the war the South has attempted to portray it otherwise, but the truth is clear as stated in their own words.
Right, the South seceded over slavery and other issues. But the war started because of secession, not slavery.
states' rights + Sectionalsim + Spread of slavery + slavery issues + Lincoln's election >>>>>> Secession >>>>> Civil War
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 10:39 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address said, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." Fifteen years later, after the New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said, "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"
And Thomas Jefferson was on the right side of every issue?
Let me add that Thomas Jefferson was a bit more radical than his revolutionary counterparts and even accepted the bloodshed of the French Revolution
O.K. So, you do not accept Thomas Jefferson as a source for the right of secession. What about the following:
Just about every major Northern newspaper editorialized in favor of the South's right to secede. New York Tribune (Feb. 5, 1860): "If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861." Detroit Free Press (Feb. 19, 1861): "An attempt to subjugate the seceded States, even if successful could produce nothing but evil -- evil unmitigated in character and appalling in content." The New York Times (March 21, 1861): "There is growing sentiment throughout the North in favor of letting the Gulf States go."
Yes, there were abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison who were more than willing to let the Southern states go there own way. But their voices were in the minority.
Many more Northerners rallied to the cause of Union and fought to bring the two sides back together. Public officials swear an oath to uphold the Constitution and the secession of the Southern states was unconstitutional.
That is an interesting statement considering that the U.S. Supreme Court, the only body empowered to determine the constitutionality of laws, did not rule that secession was unconstitutional until 1869, after the war had essentially settled the issue. So, at the time the Southern States seceded, it was not unconstitutional to do so.
An issue is not constitutional just because of the lack of a Supreme Court ruling. The issues surrounding the Hartford Convention and the Nullification Crisis demonstrate the precedent that was set through the actions of the authorities. Southerners could have taken up issue in the federal courts over their perceived constitutional right to secede, but they did not do that.Last edited on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 10:48 pm by okeegator
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 10:38 pm |
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okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: you are right there it was not about slavery.
"MYTH - The War of 1861 - 1865 was fought over slavery.
FACT - Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion."
Fact: It was fought by the North to reunite the nation it was fought by the South to remain separate. Since Southern leaders had violated their oaths to uphold the Constitution and committed the treasonous act of secession, the Northern leaders were bound to preserve the Union for the good of everyone. I think subsequent history bears that out - the North and South were much better together than apart. Wouldn't you agree?
I must disagree with you both. If you read the "DECLARATION OF THE IMMEDIATE CAUSES WHICH INDUCE AND JUSTIFY THE SECESSION OF SOUTH CAROLINA FROM THE FEDERAL UNION," December 24, 1860, you cannot help but conclude that the primary reason for secession was for the preservation of slavery. Ever since losing the war the South has attempted to portray it otherwise, but the truth is clear as stated in their own words.
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 10:21 pm |
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okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address said, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." Fifteen years later, after the New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said, "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"
And Thomas Jefferson was on the right side of every issue?
Let me add that Thomas Jefferson was a bit more radical than his revolutionary counterparts and even accepted the bloodshed of the French Revolution
O.K. So, you do not accept Thomas Jefferson as a source for the right of secession. What about the following:
Just about every major Northern newspaper editorialized in favor of the South's right to secede. New York Tribune (Feb. 5, 1860): "If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861." Detroit Free Press (Feb. 19, 1861): "An attempt to subjugate the seceded States, even if successful could produce nothing but evil -- evil unmitigated in character and appalling in content." The New York Times (March 21, 1861): "There is growing sentiment throughout the North in favor of letting the Gulf States go."
Yes, there were abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison who were more than willing to let the Southern states go there own way. But their voices were in the minority.
Many more Northerners rallied to the cause of Union and fought to bring the two sides back together. Public officials swear an oath to uphold the Constitution and the secession of the Southern states was unconstitutional.
That is an interesting statement considering that the U.S. Supreme Court, the only body empowered to determine the constitutionality of laws, did not rule that secession was unconstitutional until 1869, after the war had essentially settled the issue. So, at the time the Southern States seceded, it was not unconstitutional to do so.
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 09:59 pm |
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OkeeArt wrote: you are right there it was not about slavery.
"MYTH - The War of 1861 - 1865 was fought over slavery.
FACT - Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion."
OkeeArt, did slavery have anything to do with the start of the war?
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 09:54 pm |
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OkeeArt wrote: you are right there it was not about slavery.
"MYTH - The War of 1861 - 1865 was fought over slavery.
FACT - Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion."
Fact: It was fought by the North to reunite the nation it was fought by the South to remain separate. Since Southern leaders had violated their oaths to uphold the Constitution and committed the treasonous act of secession, the Northern leaders were bound to preserve the Union for the good of everyone. I think subsequent history bears that out - the North and South were much better together than apart. Wouldn't you agree?
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OkeeArt
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 09:50 pm |
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you are right there it was not about slavery.
"MYTH - The War of 1861 - 1865 was fought over slavery.
FACT - Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion."
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 09:39 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer
Thanks for helping to keep this civil and intelligent (although some of my comments were meant to provoke a reaction in order to start the debate). I enjoy the verbal sparring and hope discussions like this are enlightening for everyone. It is an interesting issue to me and I always try to look for those willing to take on the challenge. I know it forces me to learn a few new things. It's nothing personal and clearly we all hold strong opinions, but I think it is a legitimate issue. Many here in the South get defensive over the flag issue because of race, but I believe few Southerners consider the constitutional aspects of the argument, and I question whether they truly know the history of the causes of the Civil War and the issues of secession and states' rights.
Last edited on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 09:56 pm by okeegator
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address said, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." Fifteen years later, after the New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said, "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"
And Thomas Jefferson was on the right side of every issue?
Let me add that Thomas Jefferson was a bit more radical than his revolutionary counterparts and even accepted the bloodshed of the French Revolution
O.K. So, you do not accept Thomas Jefferson as a source for the right of secession. What about the following:
Just about every major Northern newspaper editorialized in favor of the South's right to secede. New York Tribune (Feb. 5, 1860): "If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861." Detroit Free Press (Feb. 19, 1861): "An attempt to subjugate the seceded States, even if successful could produce nothing but evil -- evil unmitigated in character and appalling in content." The New York Times (March 21, 1861): "There is growing sentiment throughout the North in favor of letting the Gulf States go."
Yes, there were abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison who were more than willing to let the Southern states go there own way. But their voices were in the minority.
Many more Northerners rallied to the cause of Union and fought to bring the two sides back together. Public officials swear an oath to uphold the Constitution and the secession of the Southern states was unconstitutional.
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:51 pm |
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okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address said, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." Fifteen years later, after the New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said, "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"
And Thomas Jefferson was on the right side of every issue?
Let me add that Thomas Jefferson was a bit more radical than his revolutionary counterparts and even accepted the bloodshed of the French Revolution
O.K. So, you do not accept Thomas Jefferson as a source for the right of secession. What about the following:
Just about every major Northern newspaper editorialized in favor of the South's right to secede. New York Tribune (Feb. 5, 1860): "If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861." Detroit Free Press (Feb. 19, 1861): "An attempt to subjugate the seceded States, even if successful could produce nothing but evil -- evil unmitigated in character and appalling in content." The New York Times (March 21, 1861): "There is growing sentiment throughout the North in favor of letting the Gulf States go."
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:46 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
When South Carolina threatened to secede over the nullification crisis, Andrew Jackson (a Southern supporter of states' rights) threatened to send troops to keep them in.
States have threatened to do it, but the Confederate states actually DID IT. No hypocrisy there.
You need to recheck your history. The Nullification Crisis involved South Carolina's attempt to nullify a tariff law enacted by the Federal Government. There was no mention of secession.
I shall correct my own misstatement. The South Carolina Ordinance of Nullification, November 24, 1832, states in part:
"And we, the people of South Carolina, to the end that it may be fully understood by the government of the United States, and the people of the co-States, that we are determined to maintain this our ordinance and declaration, at every hazard, do further declare that we will not submit to the application of force on the part of the federal government, to reduce this State to obedience, but that we will consider the passage, by Congress, of any act authorizing the employment of a military or naval force against the State of South Carolina, her constitutional authorities or citizens; or any act abolishing or closing the ports of this State, or any of them, or otherwise obstructing the free ingress and egress of vessels to and from the said ports, or any other act on the part of the federal government, to coerce the State, shut up her ports, destroy or harass her commerce or to enforce the acts hereby declared to be null and void, otherwise than through the civil tribunals of the country, as inconsistent with the longer continuance of South Carolina in the Union; and that the people of this State will henceforth hold themselves absolved from all further obligation to maintain or preserve their political connection with the people of the other States; and will forthwith proceed to organize a separate government, and do all other acts and things which sovereign and independent States may of right do.
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:35 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address said, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." Fifteen years later, after the New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said, "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"
And Thomas Jefferson was on the right side of every issue?
Let me add that Thomas Jefferson was a bit more radical than his revolutionary counterparts and even accepted the bloodshed of the French Revolution
Here's a link and a quote from its article:
http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/French_Revolution
The execution of aristocrats by popular tribunals led to nervous arguments in America and Jefferson's famous letter on which he falls into arguing that the revolution's glorious ends justified apocalyptic means: "My own affections have been deeply wounded by some of the martyrs to the cause, but rather than it should have failed, I would have seen half the earth desolated. Were there but an Adam & Eve left in every country, & left free, it would be better than as it now is."
Last edited on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:39 pm by okeegator
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:34 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
When South Carolina threatened to secede over the nullification crisis, Andrew Jackson (a Southern supporter of states' rights) threatened to send troops to keep them in.
States have threatened to do it, but the Confederate states actually DID IT. No hypocrisy there.
You need to recheck your history. The Nullification Crisis involved South Carolina's attempt to nullify a tariff law enacted by the Federal Government. There was no mention of secession.
Here are some more links on the subject:
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h333.html
http://answersinhistory.wordpress.com/2007/01/06/the-nullification-crisis/
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:34 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
When South Carolina threatened to secede over the nullification crisis, Andrew Jackson (a Southern supporter of states' rights) threatened to send troops to keep them in.
States have threatened to do it, but the Confederate states actually DID IT. No hypocrisy there.
You need to recheck your history. The Nullification Crisis involved South Carolina's attempt to nullify a tariff law enacted by the Federal Government. There was no mention of secession.
Here are some more links on the subject:
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h333.html
http://answersinhistory.wordpress.com/2007/01/06/the-nullification-crisis/
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:23 pm |
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okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address said, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." Fifteen years later, after the New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said, "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:20 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
When South Carolina threatened to secede over the nullification crisis, Andrew Jackson (a Southern supporter of states' rights) threatened to send troops to keep them in.
States have threatened to do it, but the Confederate states actually DID IT. No hypocrisy there.
You need to recheck your history. The Nullification Crisis involved South Carolina's attempt to nullify a tariff law enacted by the Federal Government. There was no mention of secession.
When you check your history, check all of it. I hate quoting Wikipedia but here is a part of their article on the Nullification Crisis:
Many people expected the states’ rights Jackson to side with Haynes. However once the debate shifted to secession and nullification, Jackson sided with Webster. On April 13, 1830 at the traditional Democratic Party celebration honoring Thomas Jefferson’s birthday, Jackson chose to make his position clear. In a battle of toasts, Hayne proposed, “The Union of the States, and the Sovereignty of the States.” Jackson’s response, when his turn came, was, “Our Federal Union: It must be preserved.” To those attending, the effect was dramatic. Calhoun would respond with his own toast, in a play on Webster’s closing remarks in the earlier debate, “The Union. Next to our liberty, the most dear.” Finally Martin Van Buren would offer, “Mutual forbearance and reciprocal concession. Through their agency the Union was established. The patriotic spirit from which they emanated will forever sustain it.”
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:06 pm |
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okeegator wrote: Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
When South Carolina threatened to secede over the nullification crisis, Andrew Jackson (a Southern supporter of states' rights) threatened to send troops to keep them in.
States have threatened to do it, but the Confederate states actually DID IT. No hypocrisy there.
You need to recheck your history. The Nullification Crisis involved South Carolina's attempt to nullify a tariff law enacted by the Federal Government. There was no mention of secession.
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:09 pm |
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OkeeArt wrote: The US flag flew over a slave nation for over 85 years! The North tolerated slavery and acknowledged it as a Division Of Labor. The North made a vast fortune on slavery and it's commodities. It wasn't until the South decided to leave the Union that the North objected. The North knew it could not survive without the Southern money. That is the true definition of hypocrisy.
Who is arguing about slavery and the flag?
The North did not fight the war to end slavery. That issue only arose after Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. The North fought the war to reunite the two sides and to bring an end to secession. Lincoln promised that he would reunite the North and South even if it meant not freeing a single slave. So your point is moot.
Not every Northerner supported the war effort and not every Northerner was opposed to slavery. Those who were opposed to slavery but directly benefited from its existence should be called hypocrites.
Last edited on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 07:00 pm by okeegator
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:06 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: If the act of burning a flag is protected free speech, as decided by the Supreme Court, then surely the display of the Confederate Flag is also protected free speech. However, the bottom line is, if you do not like it, get over it! I am simply sick and tired of some people using "Political Correctness" to inhibit what they find offensive. I do not give a damn if you are offended! Get over it!
Of course its free speech. I am not arguing political correctness. I am questioning why some speak of others flying foreign flags and yet refuse to recognize the Confederate flag as a foreign flag as well. If you can't accept that its history is based on a treasonous action (secession) then so be it.
I am certain that everyone here is a proud American who loves this country and the Stars and Stripes. If anyone needs to get over it I think it is those who keep flying the flag. If you want to honor our Southern heritage, find something that truly represents the South throughout all of its history - not just those few years of war.
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 02:59 pm |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
Not disputed by whom? Better check that history again.
When South Carolina threatened to secede over the nullification crisis, Andrew Jackson (a Southern supporter of states' rights) threatened to send troops to keep them in.
States have threatened to do it, but the Confederate states actually DID IT. No hypocrisy there.
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OkeeArt
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 01:58 pm |
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| The US flag flew over a slave nation for over 85 years! The North tolerated slavery and acknowledged it as a Division Of Labor. The North made a vast fortune on slavery and it's commodities. It wasn't until the South decided to leave the Union that the North objected. The North knew it could not survive without the Southern money. That is the true definition of hypocrisy.
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 01:03 pm |
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okeegator wrote: I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
It is a historical fact that during the War of 1812 some of the New England States threatened to secede from the Union, and their right to do so was not disputed. However, when the Southern States first threatened and then did secede from the Union, it was proclaimed to be an act of treason and a civil war followed. I think this qualifies as hypocrisy.
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 12:30 pm |
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| If the act of burning a flag is protected free speech, as decided by the Supreme Court, then surely the display of the Confederate Flag is also protected free speech. However, the bottom line is, if you do not like it, get over it! I am simply sick and tired of some people using "Political Correctness" to inhibit what they find offensive. I do not give a damn if you are offended! Get over it!
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 04:36 am |
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OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote: Southerndawg wrote: okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote:That's why I wish people would quit flying foreign flags like the Confederate Flag.
That statement shows true ignorance as this is the south. The birthplace of the Confederate Flag.
Well then tell me, wasn't that the flag for a government that no longer exists? That is the flag of a country that fought a war against the government of the United States? The Confederate flag was the battlefield flag of a foreign (non-U.S.)government that was defeated. This is the flag you should be flying proudly. The rebel flag belongs in a museum exhibit along with the flags of other foreign governments that were beaten by the U.S.
Bet your a damn Yankee! And probably worse you are from New York!!
Yep, from up north. Lived here over twenty years. I have family that goes back to eastern Tennessee in the 1800's where one of my ancestors fought for the Confederacy and returned home. I have evidence of others that fought and died for the South during the war as well. They went to Tennessee by way of North Carolina and Virginia where some of my ancestors lived when Jamestown was first settled. I have a long history of ties to the South and am aware of its Southern heritage.
So you have no pride in your heritage?
Secession and the confederacy are just some of the things of which I am not proud.
Besides, how does the fact I was born up north refute my argument?
P.S. - I'm not originally from New York.
I have pride in my Southern heritage, just not in all of its history. Like I said above, "Secession and the confederacy are just some of the things of which I am not proud." You can add segregation and Jim Crow to that list as well.
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OkeeArt
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 04:14 am |
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okeegator wrote: Southerndawg wrote: okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote:That's why I wish people would quit flying foreign flags like the Confederate Flag.
That statement shows true ignorance as this is the south. The birthplace of the Confederate Flag.
Well then tell me, wasn't that the flag for a government that no longer exists? That is the flag of a country that fought a war against the government of the United States? The Confederate flag was the battlefield flag of a foreign (non-U.S.)government that was defeated. This is the flag you should be flying proudly. The rebel flag belongs in a museum exhibit along with the flags of other foreign governments that were beaten by the U.S.
Bet your a damn Yankee! And probably worse you are from New York!!
Yep, from up north. Lived here over twenty years. I have family that goes back to eastern Tennessee in the 1800's where one of my ancestors fought for the Confederacy and returned home. I have evidence of others that fought and died for the South during the war as well. They went to Tennessee by way of North Carolina and Virginia where some of my ancestors lived when Jamestown was first settled. I have a long history of ties to the South and am aware of its Southern heritage.
So you have no pride in your heritage?
Secession and the confederacy are just some of the things of which I am not proud.
Besides, how does the fact I was born up north refute my argument?
P.S. - I'm not originally from New York.
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 04:00 am |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote:That's why I wish people would quit flying foreign flags like the Confederate Flag.
That statement shows true ignorance as this is the south. The birthplace of the Confederate Flag.
Well then tell me, wasn't that the flag for a government that no longer exists? That is the flag of a country that fought a war against the government of the United States? The Confederate flag was the battlefield flag of a foreign (non-U.S.)government that was defeated. This is the flag you should be flying proudly. The rebel flag belongs in a museum exhibit along with the flags of other foreign governments that were beaten by the U.S.
Obviously, you are lacking in toleration and respect for other peoples' history and heritage. Liberal Democrats sooner or later always get tripped up by their hypocrisy.
I will argue that the hypocrisy is on your side. Why hold dear a flag that represents a government and an idea that stood in direct opposition to the federal republic that is the Unted States? Some states fought to preserve the Union while others fought to break it up. After the rise of the U.S. as a superpower, which side was vindicated? If the South had won there would have been no Union to come to the aid of Europe twice, no Union to serve as a beacon of democracy in the world, no Union to preserve peace and freedom. Yet some continue to fly a flag that represents a "lost cause" and a defeated idea. How can you espouse the ideas of both? There is your hypocrisy.
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:50 am |
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OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: MYTH - The Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.
FACT - The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy and hoopla going on in several states. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that villify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels.
I'm not talking about racism. I am talking about the reverence some have for a foreign flag that fought against the country we all love today.
But it is not foreign is what I am trying to say.
Just because it was not union does not make it foreign.
Are the Seminoles foreign?
The fact that it was not Union automatically makes it foreign. The Union = United States. Any other government/flag in opposition to the United States is/was foreign.
Actually Indian tribes were considered foreign nations for many years under U.S. laws. The Seminoles and other tribes have relinquished their sovereignty in subordination to the U.S. government. Acts of Congress were required to make them citizens as they were assimilated into the U.S.
BTW, no hard feelings. I'm just expressing an opinion that is hard for some Rebel flag-waving Southerners to swallow.
Last edited on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:52 am by okeegator
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OkeeArt
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:46 am |
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okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: MYTH - The Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.
FACT - The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy and hoopla going on in several states. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that villify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels.
I'm not talking about racism. I am talking about the reverence some have for a foreign flag that fought against the country we all love today.
But it is not foreign is what I am trying to say.
Just because it was not union does not make it foreign.
Are the Seminoles foreign?
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:37 am |
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OkeeArt wrote: MYTH - The Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.
FACT - The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy and hoopla going on in several states. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that villify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels.
I'm not talking about racism. I am talking about the reverence some have for a foreign flag that fought against the country we all love today.Last edited on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:43 am by okeegator
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:35 am |
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Southerndawg wrote: okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote:That's why I wish people would quit flying foreign flags like the Confederate Flag.
That statement shows true ignorance as this is the south. The birthplace of the Confederate Flag.
Well then tell me, wasn't that the flag for a government that no longer exists? That is the flag of a country that fought a war against the government of the United States? The Confederate flag was the battlefield flag of a foreign (non-U.S.)government that was defeated. This is the flag you should be flying proudly. The rebel flag belongs in a museum exhibit along with the flags of other foreign governments that were beaten by the U.S.
Bet your a damn Yankee! And probably worse you are from New York!!
Yep, from up north. Lived here over twenty years. I have family that goes back to eastern Tennessee in the 1800's where one of my ancestors fought for the Confederacy and returned home. I have evidence of others that fought and died for the South during the war as well. They went to Tennessee by way of North Carolina and Virginia where some of my ancestors lived when Jamestown was first settled. I have a long history of ties to the South and am aware of its Southern heritage. Secession and the confederacy are just some of the things of which I am not proud.
Besides, how does the fact I was born up north refute my argument?
P.S. - I'm not originally from New York.
Last edited on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:40 am by okeegator
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OkeeArt
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:35 am |
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MYTH - The Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.
FACT - The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy and hoopla going on in several states. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that villify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels.
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:30 am |
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Concerned Taxpayer wrote: okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote:That's why I wish people would quit flying foreign flags like the Confederate Flag.
That statement shows true ignorance as this is the south. The birthplace of the Confederate Flag.
Well then tell me, wasn't that the flag for a government that no longer exists? That is the flag of a country that fought a war against the government of the United States? The Confederate flag was the battlefield flag of a foreign (non-U.S.)government that was defeated. This is the flag you should be flying proudly. The rebel flag belongs in a museum exhibit along with the flags of other foreign governments that were beaten by the U.S.
Obviously, you are lacking in toleration and respect for other peoples' history and heritage. Liberal Democrats sooner or later always get tripped up by their hypocrisy.
Ha, now that's a good one. I am neither a Democrat nor a liberal. Besides, I don't see how that would have anything to do with it anyway.
You say such things because you have no argument to rebut my case. I am arguing that the Confederate flag is that of a traitorous history. It represents a political view and a government that stood in opposition to the United States and fought a war to preserve itself. It failed and the United States lived on for which you should all be thankful. Now if you wish to fly your foreign flag in the United States you have the right to do so, but don't it ever equate it with the Stars and Stripes. Fly it as other foreign flags are flown.
Now show me my hypocrisy.
My flag kicked British, Mexican, Spanish, Nazi, Communist and Confederate a$$.... what did yours do?
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Concerned Taxpayer
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:06 am |
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okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote:That's why I wish people would quit flying foreign flags like the Confederate Flag.
That statement shows true ignorance as this is the south. The birthplace of the Confederate Flag.
Well then tell me, wasn't that the flag for a government that no longer exists? That is the flag of a country that fought a war against the government of the United States? The Confederate flag was the battlefield flag of a foreign (non-U.S.)government that was defeated. This is the flag you should be flying proudly. The rebel flag belongs in a museum exhibit along with the flags of other foreign governments that were beaten by the U.S.
Obviously, you are lacking in toleration and respect for other peoples' history and heritage. Liberal Democrats sooner or later always get tripped up by their hypocrisy.
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Southerndawg
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Posted: Fri Sep 26th, 2008 03:02 am |
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okeegator wrote: OkeeArt wrote: okeegator wrote:That's why I wish people would quit flying foreign flags like the Confederate Flag.
That statement shows tru | | |