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Acid Rayne
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 03:06 am

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Thanks Pops...I pop in from time to time when Im bored or needing a good laugh..Have not had too much time to do this as of late because I have be so busy enjoying my new home meeting new people...

pops
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Posted: Tue Jun 30th, 2009 02:53 am

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Acid Rayne wrote: Just popping in to say hello and OMGESS...this thread is still going strong? I was going to say I cant believe it but I know better...you Okeeies are so funny...so glad to be out of this ridiculous drama....have fun..I know I am..My Goddess is great and life is wonderful!!!! :cool:

Good to hear from you!

Acid Rayne
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Posted: Tue Jun 30th, 2009 01:54 am

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Just popping in to say hello and OMGESS...this thread is still going strong? I was going to say I cant believe it but I know better...you Okeeies are so funny...so glad to be out of this ridiculous drama....have fun..I know I am..My Goddess is great and life is wonderful!!!! :cool:

4string
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 05:12 pm

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Ignorance is one of the things that got the whole God/Gods thing started... " I can't explain it, it must be God" Good thing some of us don't use this logic or man would have never dicovered fire. Then the first thing religion did was to name knowledge the original sin. untill the late 1500s the Catholic church did not allow its flock to have Bibles to read for them selfs, and even then they were written in latin so not every one could read them any way. Keep them ignorant and they will believe any thing we tell them. Seemed to be the best way.

Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 06:22 pm by 4string

newsie
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 04:30 am

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TheGonzoJournalist wrote: newsie wrote: waboc wrote: If you live long enough you get to witness true miracles and see the work of angels and you know that God is
What is long enough?

Man, too bad God kills so many children before he can show them a miracle to prove to them he exists.

"Everything is a miracle if you're ignorant enough"

Though harshly played, you have to admit, waboc makes a more than valid point. Life is a completely one-sided experience, seen from what is only our angle. To generalize and say "if you live long enough" is kind of an overdrawn statement, don't you think? Like saying if one is alive x days one will witness y miracles, albeit that these factors are largely unknown and related by an equally unknown proportion. I'm not calling you out here, I'm simply putting it this way: rephrase your wording before waboc here steam rolls your intellect.

As Kurt Vonnegut said, "Ta-ta for now."

hmm. It looks to me as though you are agreeing with me here Gonzo. But then you say waboc's name as though you agree with him. Could you please clarify?

TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 04:20 am

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newsie wrote: waboc wrote: If you live long enough you get to witness true miracles and see the work of angels and you know that God is
What is long enough?

Man, too bad God kills so many children before he can show them a miracle to prove to them he exists.

"Everything is a miracle if you're ignorant enough"

Though harshly played, you have to admit, waboc makes a more than valid point. Life is a completely one-sided experience, seen from what is only our angle. To generalize and say "if you live long enough" is kind of an overdrawn statement, don't you think? Like saying if one is alive x days one will witness y miracles, albeit that these factors are largely unknown and related by an equally unknown proportion. I'm not calling you out here, I'm simply putting it this way: rephrase your wording before waboc here steam rolls your intellect.

As Kurt Vonnegut said, "Ta-ta for now."

newsie
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 01:22 am

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waboc wrote: If you live long enough you get to witness true miracles and see the work of angels and you know that God is
What is long enough?

Man, too bad God kills so many children before he can show them a miracle to prove to them he exists.

"Everything is a miracle if you're ignorant enough"

waboc
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 02:38 pm

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If you live long enough you get to witness true miracles and see the work of angels and you know that God is

4string
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Posted: Thu Jun 25th, 2009 01:34 pm

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newsie wrote: Trubuz wrote: Although I read the thread prior to responding, a second time through confirmed it...it's all very thought-provoking. The Socratic Method is well represented here; it doesn't, however, refute Jesus' existence or Biblical facts. Even the Muslims recognize Jesus, just not His title. I, nor science, can not prove or disprove many things...for example, that life exists on distant planets, that there's creatures in the Marianna's Trench, that your pink unicorn isn't right here in my house! In fact, I don't know if anyone can prove that LOVE exists?! But, there are lots of arrows pointing in the direction(s) that all of these things are possible (maybe not the unicorn). Science can't say for sure that black holes or sub-atomic particles exist...but when you see the 'light' getting sucked into an area of space, or the irreducible fact that atoms have to made of something, they use deductive reasoning skills to make conclusions. I'm just saying that Someone had to stir the soup! Is that science? I don't know...but it must be factual as if it weren't, we'd all still be soup!

Is that science? No. The premise of your argument is essentially "the fact that we don't know proves it is God," or that the absence of proof against is the same as proof supporting an argument. Science doesn't work this way. Science requires a testable hypothesis. There is no testable hypothesis for God.

As for your example of trying to prove love exists, I think that is the perfect example. If you believe love exists, then it exists for you. If you think love does not exist, then it will not exist for you. Whether or not you think love exists, it is only an intangible thought that cannot be proven to exist or not exist in any real manner. Just like God. Your other examples are of theoretically physical entities, so can be proved, or more accurately, fail to be disproved, depending on how we choose to define them. This is why evolution is a theory and not considered absolute truth necessarily. If someone were to bring up data that refuted evolution, then we would reject evolution or change the explanation. This is the strength of science. There is not evidence even in theory that could refute the existence of God, and in the same right there is no evidence possible to refute the non-existence of God, therefore neither is a scientific matter. Just like the invisible pink unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

And large number of people believing in something does not make it true either. It only means that a large number of people believe in it.

What Newsie said. :cool:

newsie
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 05:27 am

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Trubuz wrote: Although I read the thread prior to responding, a second time through confirmed it...it's all very thought-provoking. The Socratic Method is well represented here; it doesn't, however, refute Jesus' existence or Biblical facts. Even the Muslims recognize Jesus, just not His title. I, nor science, can not prove or disprove many things...for example, that life exists on distant planets, that there's creatures in the Marianna's Trench, that your pink unicorn isn't right here in my house! In fact, I don't know if anyone can prove that LOVE exists?! But, there are lots of arrows pointing in the direction(s) that all of these things are possible (maybe not the unicorn). Science can't say for sure that black holes or sub-atomic particles exist...but when you see the 'light' getting sucked into an area of space, or the irreducible fact that atoms have to made of something, they use deductive reasoning skills to make conclusions. I'm just saying that Someone had to stir the soup! Is that science? I don't know...but it must be factual as if it weren't, we'd all still be soup!

Is that science? No. The premise of your argument is essentially "the fact that we don't know proves it is God," or that the absence of proof against is the same as proof supporting an argument. Science doesn't work this way. Science requires a testable hypothesis. There is no testable hypothesis for God.

As for your example of trying to prove love exists, I think that is the perfect example. If you believe love exists, then it exists for you. If you think love does not exist, then it will not exist for you. Whether or not you think love exists, it is only an intangible thought that cannot be proven to exist or not exist in any real manner. Just like God. Your other examples are of theoretically physical entities, so can be proved, or more accurately, fail to be disproved, depending on how we choose to define them. This is why evolution is a theory and not considered absolute truth necessarily. If someone were to bring up data that refuted evolution, then we would reject evolution or change the explanation. This is the strength of science. There is not evidence even in theory that could refute the existence of God, and in the same right there is no evidence possible to refute the non-existence of God, therefore neither is a scientific matter. Just like the invisible pink unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

And large number of people believing in something does not make it true either. It only means that a large number of people believe in it.

Trubuz
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Posted: Wed Jun 24th, 2009 02:10 am

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Although I read the thread prior to responding, a second time through confirmed it...it's all very thought-provoking. The Socratic Method is well represented here; it doesn't, however, refute Jesus' existence or Biblical facts. Even the Muslims recognize Jesus, just not His title. I, nor science, can not prove or disprove many things...for example, that life exists on distant planets, that there's creatures in the Marianna's Trench, that your pink unicorn isn't right here in my house! In fact, I don't know if anyone can prove that LOVE exists?! But, there are lots of arrows pointing in the direction(s) that all of these things are possible (maybe not the unicorn). Science can't say for sure that black holes or sub-atomic particles exist...but when you see the 'light' getting sucked into an area of space, or the irreducible fact that atoms have to made of something, they use deductive reasoning skills to make conclusions. I'm just saying that Someone had to stir the soup! Is that science? I don't know...but it must be factual as if it weren't, we'd all still be soup!

IMHO
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 10:50 pm

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newsie
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 07:53 pm

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Trubuz wrote: Let's visualize a giant kettle of soup with lots of ingredients, even some elements that might randomly come together (after a good stirring) to form little eddys or pockets that contain the exact ratio of those 'chemicals' that allow life to miraculously begin as a piece of DNA. Then, millions of years pass, the blending continues...DNA miraculously becomes a bacteria, which, millions of years later miraculously becomes a one-celled 'animal', then on and on...who made the soup? Who stirred the soup? The hypothesis to prove should be, "there is no god". At some point, someone questioned His existence which fueled this argument. Just like some 'wise' (I mean this sarcastically) person asked the question, 'if a tree falls in the forest when no one is around, does it make any noise'. Can you believe this encompassed several lectures in one of my college classes!!! The fact is, we are genetically 'wired', according to scientists, to believe there is a God (see Time Magazine's article called "The God Gene" from a few years ago). This was, I assume, God's design. Why the Abrahamic God (of whom Jesus Christ is the Begotten Son)? He made the ultimate sacrifice--would you allow your own child to be tortured and murdered for a bunch a nasty, greedy, selfish people like me? No one disputes that Jesus was borne of a virgin, lived a perfect (sinless) 33 years, died (was murdered), then came back to life before ascending to Heaven! That says something! Believe the Bible or not, there would have been a rebuttal by someone, anyone (skeptics or pharisees or haters) if the account weren't true. But, there is also another factor...faith.
The fact that life exists is not proof that God, and even less the specifically Christian God, does in fact exist. Your class seems to do what many religious who intend to justify or prove the existence of god do, and that is to cherry pick scientific information that in no way proves any of what they say. Sorry, it makes for a nice story, but proof it is not. And you are incorrect about people not disputing Jesus was borne of a virgin. There is actually some reasonable evidence that suggests he did not exist at all. If you have not found any refutation of Jesus to the point that you think it does not exist, then you must be hiding yourself from any outside discussion.

Really, if you had bothered to read this very thread you would have found your claims of non-refutation to be untrue.

You fail to understand that faith in the bible isn't just a factor, it is the ONLY factor. No science will ever prove God, and no science will disprove it. Faith is all you can hang your hat on because if there was definite proof it wouldn't be faith anymore, it would just be an understanding of facts. Do not fool yourself into thinking science in any way supports the existence of God. Feel free to use the same arguments when someone tries to use science to disprove God.

Let me know when you disprove the pink, invisible unicorn.

Trubuz
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 06:32 pm

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Let's visualize a giant kettle of soup with lots of ingredients, even some elements that might randomly come together (after a good stirring) to form little eddys or pockets that contain the exact ratio of those 'chemicals' that allow life to miraculously begin as a piece of DNA. Then, millions of years pass, the blending continues...DNA miraculously becomes a bacteria, which, millions of years later miraculously becomes a one-celled 'animal', then on and on...who made the soup? Who stirred the soup? The hypothesis to prove should be, "there is no god". At some point, someone questioned His existence which fueled this argument. Just like some 'wise' (I mean this sarcastically) person asked the question, 'if a tree falls in the forest when no one is around, does it make any noise'. Can you believe this encompassed several lectures in one of my college classes!!! The fact is, we are genetically 'wired', according to scientists, to believe there is a God (see Time Magazine's article called "The God Gene" from a few years ago). This was, I assume, God's design. Why the Abrahamic God (of whom Jesus Christ is the Begotten Son)? He made the ultimate sacrifice--would you allow your own child to be tortured and murdered for a bunch a nasty, greedy, selfish people like me? No one disputes that Jesus was borne of a virgin, lived a perfect (sinless) 33 years, died (was murdered), then came back to life before ascending to Heaven! That says something! Believe the Bible or not, there would have been a rebuttal by someone, anyone (skeptics or pharisees or haters) if the account weren't true. But, there is also another factor...faith.

newsie
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 04:18 pm

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Trubuz wrote: God has no allegiance to those who do not recognized Him and His Son. We are all 'creations' of God; however, we are not all 'children' of God. It takes more faith for me to believe that humanity is a result of coincidence than believe that it was created. If the pieces of a Rolex are dropped from an airplane, I have to doubt that the completed watch will hit the ground (even if you could drop it from a million miles above). I guess my challenge to all is, prove there isn't a God. Remember, if you use all of the evil to make your argument, evil is 'where God isn't'. When the presence of God is pushed away, evil fills-in the space.
That is not how it works. It is incumbent upon the person with the hypothesis(i.e. That God exists) to prove the hypothesis correct. Or rather to be more scientific about it, to prove that all other theories cannot be true. I could say "prove to me that a pink invisible unicorn doesn't exist" and you will never be able to do so, but that doesn't mean that a pink invisible unicorn does, in fact, exist. How about you prove all the other god's that people believe in don't exist. Prove reincarnation doesn't happen. Again, pointless endeavor, especially because the Gods that people believe in all have unexplainable, wondrous, can do anything powers.

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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 03:25 pm

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God has no allegiance to those who do not recognized Him and His Son. We are all 'creations' of God; however, we are not all 'children' of God. It takes more faith for me to believe that humanity is a result of coincidence than believe that it was created. If the pieces of a Rolex are dropped from an airplane, I have to doubt that the completed watch will hit the ground (even if you could drop it from a million miles above). I guess my challenge to all is, prove there isn't a God. Remember, if you use all of the evil to make your argument, evil is 'where God isn't'. When the presence of God is pushed away, evil fills-in the space.

Firefly1958
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 03:12 pm

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Meems wrote: Gid is good.

All the time.

God is good , All the time!

I see the key elf is moving your keys around again......Firefly

Meems
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 03:04 pm

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Gid is good.

All the time.

OkeeNarnie
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 02:37 pm

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Sharing the Good News - IT'S WHAT GOOD CHRISTIANS DO!

God Is Great Every Day

Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 02:38 pm by OkeeNarnie

4string
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Posted: Thu Jun 11th, 2009 03:32 pm

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4string wrote: anonymous2009 wrote: I don't understand why people can believe in nonsense and can not believe in Christ. He is the only thing that makes senses once you try to understand who he is in the spirit. It saddens me the amount of souls that will go to hell for simply not believing in Christ just because they can not see him. HE IS REAL. HE DOES LIVE. HE IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD JEHOVAH. HE IS THE TRUTH!

And your Proof is? Any evidence at all? Sorry the Bibles are not evidence if any thing they just disprove it all.
Also why would I burn in hell? Ted Bundy was born again while waiting to fry. You mean to tell me that because he believes, he will go to heaven. While I a person that lives a very moral life have harmed no one I don't drink, cuss (often), steal, or lie will burn in hell. What a loving, and fair god. When even God is not with out sin. He is jealous, vain, glutinous, has self pride, wrath and envy. I'm sure there are a few other of the seven deadly sins he has committed also. Not so perfect is he?

Last edited on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 06:48 pm by 4string

4string
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Posted: Thu Jun 11th, 2009 03:21 pm

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Pied piper wrote: And your Proof is? Any evidence at all? Sorry the Bibles are not evidence if any thing they just disprove it all

Your a car salesman right? Enough said!
And the fact I'm a car salesman has to do with this how? Atleast when I make a sale the customer is getting something in return. I'm not selling something they can't see, and have to wait till they die to see if it was real. Biggest, and longest running scam ever concived.

Zarawer
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Posted: Wed Jun 10th, 2009 09:48 pm

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Pied piper wrote: And your Proof is? Any evidence at all? Sorry the Bibles are not evidence if any thing they just disprove it all

Your a car salesman right? Enough said!

WHOA! You gonna take this crap 4String? Knocking the guys work position cause he doesn't agree. Seriousness.

Pied piper
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Posted: Wed Jun 10th, 2009 09:18 pm

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And your Proof is? Any evidence at all? Sorry the Bibles are not evidence if any thing they just disprove it all

Your a car salesman right? Enough said!

4string
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Posted: Wed Jun 10th, 2009 05:52 pm

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anonymous2009 wrote: I don't understand why people can believe in nonsense and can not believe in Christ. He is the only thing that makes senses once you try to understand who he is in the spirit. It saddens me the amount of souls that will go to hell for simply not believing in Christ just because they can not see him. HE IS REAL. HE DOES LIVE. HE IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD JEHOVAH. HE IS THE TRUTH!

And your Proof is? Any evidence at all? Sorry the Bibles are not evidence if any thing they just disprove it all.

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Posted: Tue Jun 9th, 2009 01:45 pm

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anonymous2009
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Posted: Tue Jun 9th, 2009 04:58 am

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I don't understand why people can believe in nonsense and can not believe in Christ. He is the only thing that makes senses once you try to understand who he is in the spirit. It saddens me the amount of souls that will go to hell for simply not believing in Christ just because they can not see him. HE IS REAL. HE DOES LIVE. HE IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD JEHOVAH. HE IS THE TRUTH!

OkeeNarnie
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 02:09 pm

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He is called.....

http://www.geocities.com/dadskitten01364/dkheiscalled.html

Tuen up your volume to hear the song

4string
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Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 02:45 pm

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Firefly1958 wrote: 4String Jesus ministered for only 3 years ,but the impact he made has been for two thousand year, only a extraordinary person could leave such a imprint on billions of people over the centuries.......Firefly
You can't convince me that Jesus even existed. No records to prove it. Much less any of the things he was suppose to have done happened.

newsie
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 06:36 pm

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Last edited on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 06:38 pm by newsie

Firefly1958
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 06:03 pm

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4String Jesus ministered for only 3 years ,but the impact he made has been for two thousand year, only a extraordinary person could leave such a imprint on billions of people over the centuries.......Firefly

Last edited on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 06:04 pm by Firefly1958

4string
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 04:44 pm

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FUBAR wrote: 4string wrote: Firefly1958 wrote: 4string wrote: Jesus is a fictional character. No record of his birth, life, or death has ever been found other than the New Testament (NT). You can not take the Bibles as fact because they are so full of impossibilities, and contradictions. How could a perfect being write such imperfect books?

None of the main characters in the OT or the NT can be prove to have lived. Sure some of the rulers of the time mentioned in the Bibles are known to have lived, but Jesus, Moses, Noah, no records of them are available. Moses was a prince of Egypt for a time still no record of him. Sure the Bible says that it was ordered that his name be stricken. How convenient. Still no record survived? No Egyptian records of the exodus and all that took place before hand to allow it were written durring or since?

As far as Atheist morals. I believe we are more moral than most of religious faiths. We truly practice the Golden Rule because we believe this life is all we have, and to make the most of it we can. By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered. We do not believe we will be judged after death, but are judged every day. We do not hate a whole group of people because of their beliefs, color, nationality, as a lot of religious people do. We judge people as the individuals they are. As we want to be judged. To me most Christians are the worst about judging others. Because their teachings tell them to do different. But then again as long as they get it in in time they can be forgiven for all sins.

You know 4string ,I have been working on the family tree for alittle over two years and can't for the life of me find record of birth on my GG Grandfathers ,does that mean they didn't exist ,I did find where he was recorded in the 1880 census recorded he was born in 1862 .I beleive it, but someone else wrote it ,and you are asking about records thousands of years ago ........."By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered."Kinda odd that you wrote this ,think about it .. I would say by the impression Jesus left along the way is how he was remembered ......Firefly

But Jesus's birth was no ordinary event. It was witnessed by three wise men from distant lands who traveled very far to take part in it. One would think if they went to all that trouble one of them would have made a record of it. Even we take pictures on our vacations. You may even have a picture of your GG Grandfather, and as you stated you did find some record of his life, and no offence but he was not the Christ. You would think some one this important to the world might have left some thing behind. His death also was an event. One carried out by the Romans who liked keeping records of such things.
You need to make a decision-either bow your knees now or later. Later will be much more painful for you. Just some friendly advice.
But to who should I bow too? Odin, Zuse, Thor, Isis, God, Jesus, Allah, Or the Man on the Moutian? And how can you be sure you made the right choice?

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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 11:36 pm

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Thats in your head and heart

Not mine

johnnie
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 11:09 pm

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FUBAR
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Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 04:26 am

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4string wrote: Firefly1958 wrote: 4string wrote: Jesus is a fictional character. No record of his birth, life, or death has ever been found other than the New Testament (NT). You can not take the Bibles as fact because they are so full of impossibilities, and contradictions. How could a perfect being write such imperfect books?

None of the main characters in the OT or the NT can be prove to have lived. Sure some of the rulers of the time mentioned in the Bibles are known to have lived, but Jesus, Moses, Noah, no records of them are available. Moses was a prince of Egypt for a time still no record of him. Sure the Bible says that it was ordered that his name be stricken. How convenient. Still no record survived? No Egyptian records of the exodus and all that took place before hand to allow it were written durring or since?

As far as Atheist morals. I believe we are more moral than most of religious faiths. We truly practice the Golden Rule because we believe this life is all we have, and to make the most of it we can. By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered. We do not believe we will be judged after death, but are judged every day. We do not hate a whole group of people because of their beliefs, color, nationality, as a lot of religious people do. We judge people as the individuals they are. As we want to be judged. To me most Christians are the worst about judging others. Because their teachings tell them to do different. But then again as long as they get it in in time they can be forgiven for all sins.

You know 4string ,I have been working on the family tree for alittle over two years and can't for the life of me find record of birth on my GG Grandfathers ,does that mean they didn't exist ,I did find where he was recorded in the 1880 census recorded he was born in 1862 .I beleive it, but someone else wrote it ,and you are asking about records thousands of years ago ........."By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered."Kinda odd that you wrote this ,think about it .. I would say by the impression Jesus left along the way is how he was remembered ......Firefly

But Jesus's birth was no ordinary event. It was witnessed by three wise men from distant lands who traveled very far to take part in it. One would think if they went to all that trouble one of them would have made a record of it. Even we take pictures on our vacations. You may even have a picture of your GG Grandfather, and as you stated you did find some record of his life, and no offence but he was not the Christ. You would think some one this important to the world might have left some thing behind. His death also was an event. One carried out by the Romans who liked keeping records of such things.
You need to make a decision-either bow your knees now or later. Later will be much more painful for you. Just some friendly advice.

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 07:05 pm

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Firefly1958 wrote: 4string wrote: Jesus is a fictional character. No record of his birth, life, or death has ever been found other than the New Testament (NT). You can not take the Bibles as fact because they are so full of impossibilities, and contradictions. How could a perfect being write such imperfect books?

None of the main characters in the OT or the NT can be prove to have lived. Sure some of the rulers of the time mentioned in the Bibles are known to have lived, but Jesus, Moses, Noah, no records of them are available. Moses was a prince of Egypt for a time still no record of him. Sure the Bible says that it was ordered that his name be stricken. How convenient. Still no record survived? No Egyptian records of the exodus and all that took place before hand to allow it were written durring or since?

As far as Atheist morals. I believe we are more moral than most of religious faiths. We truly practice the Golden Rule because we believe this life is all we have, and to make the most of it we can. By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered. We do not believe we will be judged after death, but are judged every day. We do not hate a whole group of people because of their beliefs, color, nationality, as a lot of religious people do. We judge people as the individuals they are. As we want to be judged. To me most Christians are the worst about judging others. Because their teachings tell them to do different. But then again as long as they get it in in time they can be forgiven for all sins.

You know 4string ,I have been working on the family tree for alittle over two years and can't for the life of me find record of birth on my GG Grandfathers ,does that mean they didn't exist ,I did find where he was recorded in the 1880 census recorded he was born in 1862 .I beleive it, but someone else wrote it ,and you are asking about records thousands of years ago ........."By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered."Kinda odd that you wrote this ,think about it .. I would say by the impression Jesus left along the way is how he was remembered ......Firefly

But Jesus's birth was no ordinary event. It was witnessed by three wise men from distant lands who traveled very far to take part in it. One would think if they went to all that trouble one of them would have made a record of it. Even we take pictures on our vacations. You may even have a picture of your GG Grandfather, and as you stated you did find some record of his life, and no offence but he was not the Christ. You would think some one this important to the world might have left some thing behind. His death also was an event. One carried out by the Romans who liked keeping records of such things.

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 06:42 pm

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Miss Kitty wrote: If you really wanted an answer you would find one.Go to church one Sunday you will hear your answer.
No I won't. None of these questions are answered in church. Unless you count, Faith, or the Bible says so as an answer. Most of these the bible dose not answer but only ads to the confusion. Another question Which Church of Which Religion? They do not all teach the same so which is right? How do you know you made the right choice? Did you even make the choice, or do you practice the same faith your parents and grand parents did? Because it is what you have been told all your life to be true. Well if some one raised a kid and told them all thier life that Santa was real. They would believe in Santa till death.

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 06:47 am

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Firefly1958 wrote: newsie wrote: Firefly1958 wrote: newsie wrote: Miss Kitty wrote: If you really wanted an answer you would find one.Go to church one Sunday you will hear your answer.
This actually proves my point better than anything. People believe what they want to believe. What Miss Kitty has said here could apply to virtually every religion or belief system(save the church on Sunday part). Tons of people all over the world make this sincere quest for an answer all the time and come to widely different conclusions. Why? Because when it comes to the currently unexplainable or unprovable, each person believes in the answer they want to hear.
newsie I guess if anyone wants to go to church thats fine,I'm not much on organized religion and every church teaches a different way, I do study the Bible and decided for myself ,my thoughts on O.R. is what if they are teaching wrong I would rather try to figure it out myself If I'm wrong ,can't blame the messenger . I go to church sometimes with my grand daughter and cringe inside when I sit through the service thinking what in the world am I doing in this church ,they dance and sing and maybe teach a few verses. So I'll go it on my own. I do believe and I'm not shaken, so people are going to do what they think is right .I'm not going to try to convince them otherwise ,I got my hands full worrying about my own soul ,others are going to have to worry about theirs ,,,,,,or not .....Firefly
Exactly. That is exactly my point. You personally chose what answer you believed most; what best suited you. This is not based on any necessary truth, only that you believe. AND THAT IS COMPLETELY OKAY. But this personal belief that you came to with admittedly no proof gets imposed on others who have come to believe something different. And it is expected that people accept it with the only reasoning being derived from the supernatural. This is unfair and rather hypocritical for these people to applaud themselves for determining on their own what they personally believe while chastising someone for undergoing the same process and coming to a different conclusion for their own life when the only justification they have to to claim that the other is wrong is their own unprovable belief.
I don't expect people to believe the way I do or interpret the Bible the way I do and I certainly don't expect people to accept what I do. If someone ask I will tell them. Newsie it's a personal walk through life and I have choices .I don't applaud myself for my personal beliefs, I just hope I've made the right decision and no I cannot prove God exist anymore than you can disprove it...........Firefly
EXACTLY.

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 05:50 am

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newsie wrote: Firefly1958 wrote: newsie wrote: Miss Kitty wrote: If you really wanted an answer you would find one.Go to church one Sunday you will hear your answer.
This actually proves my point better than anything. People believe what they want to believe. What Miss Kitty has said here could apply to virtually every religion or belief system(save the church on Sunday part). Tons of people all over the world make this sincere quest for an answer all the time and come to widely different conclusions. Why? Because when it comes to the currently unexplainable or unprovable, each person believes in the answer they want to hear.
newsie I guess if anyone wants to go to church thats fine,I'm not much on organized religion and every church teaches a different way, I do study the Bible and decided for myself ,my thoughts on O.R. is what if they are teaching wrong I would rather try to figure it out myself If I'm wrong ,can't blame the messenger . I go to church sometimes with my grand daughter and cringe inside when I sit through the service thinking what in the world am I doing in this church ,they dance and sing and maybe teach a few verses. So I'll go it on my own. I do believe and I'm not shaken, so people are going to do what they think is right .I'm not going to try to convince them otherwise ,I got my hands full worrying about my own soul ,others are going to have to worry about theirs ,,,,,,or not .....Firefly
Exactly. That is exactly my point. You personally chose what answer you believed most; what best suited you. This is not based on any necessary truth, only that you believe. AND THAT IS COMPLETELY OKAY. But this personal belief that you came to with admittedly no proof gets imposed on others who have come to believe something different. And it is expected that people accept it with the only reasoning being derived from the supernatural. This is unfair and rather hypocritical for these people to applaud themselves for determining on their own what they personally believe while chastising someone for undergoing the same process and coming to a different conclusion for their own life when the only justification they have to to claim that the other is wrong is their own unprovable belief.
I don't expect people to believe the way I do or interpret the Bible the way I do and I certainly don't expect people to accept what I do. If someone ask I will tell them. Newsie it's a personal walk through life and I have choices .I don't applaud myself for my personal beliefs, I just hope I've made the right decision and no I cannot prove God exist anymore than you can disprove it...........Firefly

Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 05:52 am by Firefly1958

newsie
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 04:10 am

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Firefly1958 wrote: newsie wrote: Miss Kitty wrote: If you really wanted an answer you would find one.Go to church one Sunday you will hear your answer.
This actually proves my point better than anything. People believe what they want to believe. What Miss Kitty has said here could apply to virtually every religion or belief system(save the church on Sunday part). Tons of people all over the world make this sincere quest for an answer all the time and come to widely different conclusions. Why? Because when it comes to the currently unexplainable or unprovable, each person believes in the answer they want to hear.
newsie I guess if anyone wants to go to church thats fine,I'm not much on organized religion and every church teaches a different way, I do study the Bible and decided for myself ,my thoughts on O.R. is what if they are teaching wrong I would rather try to figure it out myself If I'm wrong ,can't blame the messenger . I go to church sometimes with my grand daughter and cringe inside when I sit through the service thinking what in the world am I doing in this church ,they dance and sing and maybe teach a few verses. So I'll go it on my own. I do believe and I'm not shaken, so people are going to do what they think is right .I'm not going to try to convince them otherwise ,I got my hands full worrying about my own soul ,others are going to have to worry about theirs ,,,,,,or not .....Firefly
Exactly. That is exactly my point. You personally chose what answer you believed most; what best suited you. This is not based on any necessary truth, only that you believe. AND THAT IS COMPLETELY OKAY. But this personal belief that you came to with admittedly no proof gets imposed on others who have come to believe something different. And it is expected that people accept it with the only reasoning being derived from the supernatural. This is unfair and rather hypocritical for these people to applaud themselves for determining on their own what they personally believe while chastising someone for undergoing the same process and coming to a different conclusion for their own life when the only justification they have to to claim that the other is wrong is their own unprovable belief.

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 03:45 am

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newsie wrote: Miss Kitty wrote: If you really wanted an answer you would find one.Go to church one Sunday you will hear your answer.
This actually proves my point better than anything. People believe what they want to believe. What Miss Kitty has said here could apply to virtually every religion or belief system(save the church on Sunday part). Tons of people all over the world make this sincere quest for an answer all the time and come to widely different conclusions. Why? Because when it comes to the currently unexplainable or unprovable, each person believes in the answer they want to hear.
newsie I guess if anyone wants to go to church thats fine,I'm not much on organized religion and every church teaches a different way, I do study the Bible and decided for myself ,my thoughts on O.R. is what if they are teaching wrong I would rather try to figure it out myself If I'm wrong ,can't blame the messenger . I go to church sometimes with my grand daughter and cringe inside when I sit through the service thinking what in the world am I doing in this church ,they dance and sing and maybe teach a few verses. So I'll go it on my own. I do believe and I'm not shaken, so people are going to do what they think is right .I'm not going to try to convince them otherwise ,I got my hands full worrying about my own soul ,others are going to have to worry about theirs ,,,,,,or not .....Firefly

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 03:04 am

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Miss Kitty wrote: If you really wanted an answer you would find one.Go to church one Sunday you will hear your answer.
This actually proves my point better than anything. People believe what they want to believe. What Miss Kitty has said here could apply to virtually every religion or belief system(save the church on Sunday part). Tons of people all over the world make this sincere quest for an answer all the time and come to widely different conclusions. Why? Because when it comes to the currently unexplainable or unprovable, each person believes in the answer they want to hear.

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 02:42 am

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Firefly1958 wrote: newsie wrote: That doesn't exactly work Firefly. You are living proof that you were born. But even so, there are various problems with using ancient texts as history. For instance, the New Testament was written years after the death of Jesus, often times by people who had never met or seen him. These stories are often transferred by word of mouth.

There are many ancient rulers, for example, that exist in texts and carvings. We can be fairly sure they lived at some point from these texts. We generally choose to believe this to a point. But the texts would also say that a ruler had god-like powers and used them to conquer cities or nations(and we sometimes have proof they they indeed conquered these nations). Obviously none of us were alive back then to prove or disprove these claims. However, we tend stop our belief at the point of the supernatural because of what we know of reality. Sure, if the ruler had supernatural powers they could have really conquered, but there is usually a much more likely, reality based explanation, even if neither is provable. In this way, the burden of proof is on the believer of the unlikely/supernatural explanation, not the doubter.
I think the Epistles of Paul were written about 20 years after the death of Christ and Mark was written about 30 years after ,I don't think thats a unreasonable time frame .And I think that 20 or 30 years after the death of Jesus there was still folks alive that witnessed Jesus.......Firefly
That's fine actually. I will go so far personally as to believe that Jesus did exist. However, like in my example, mere existence is not enough to prove the supernatural claims. How do you prove the accuracy of supernatural claims? Why believe the highly unlikely/out of this world explanation over the realistic one? You wouldn't do it for other ancient records of historical humans who had supernatural powers attributed to them. So what makes this one more believable than the ones you dismiss. You cannot use what the bible says to justify itself as that is circular logic. You would need outside confirmation. But even then, if there is consensus that a "miracle" happened, that is not in itself proof. There could be consensus that ancient eclipses were caused by magic by several different historical documents of cultures and races, but we know today the real cause. Of course nobody was there to prove that it wasn't magic, but we will widely accept the most rational explanation over the supernatural one.

Side note, the average life expectancy during the classic Greek and Roman time periods was only 20-30 years, so it is reasonable to assume the first writers had met Jesus while they were children or even not at all.

Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 02:42 am by newsie

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 02:11 am

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newsie wrote: That doesn't exactly work Firefly. You are living proof that you were born. But even so, there are various problems with using ancient texts as history. For instance, the New Testament was written years after the death of Jesus, often times by people who had never met or seen him. These stories are often transferred by word of mouth.

There are many ancient rulers, for example, that exist in texts and carvings. We can be fairly sure they lived at some point from these texts. We generally choose to believe this to a point. But the texts would also say that a ruler had god-like powers and used them to conquer cities or nations(and we sometimes have proof they they indeed conquered these nations). Obviously none of us were alive back then to prove or disprove these claims. However, we tend stop our belief at the point of the supernatural because of what we know of reality. Sure, if the ruler had supernatural powers they could have really conquered, but there is usually a much more likely, reality based explanation, even if neither is provable. In this way, the burden of proof is on the believer of the unlikely/supernatural explanation, not the doubter.
I think the Epistles of Paul were written about 20 years after the death of Christ and Mark was written about 30 years after ,I don't think thats a unreasonable time frame .And I think that 20 or 30 years after the death of Jesus there was still folks alive that witnessed Jesus.......Firefly

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 12:57 am

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That doesn't exactly work Firefly. You are living proof that you were born. But even so, there are various problems with using ancient texts as history. For instance, the New Testament was written years after the death of Jesus, often times by people who had never met or seen him. These stories are often transferred by word of mouth.

There are many ancient rulers, for example, that exist in texts and carvings. We can be fairly sure they lived at some point from these texts. We generally choose to believe this to a point. But the texts would also say that a ruler had god-like powers and used them to conquer cities or nations(and we sometimes have proof they they indeed conquered these nations). Obviously none of us were alive back then to prove or disprove these claims. However, we tend stop our belief at the point of the supernatural because of what we know of reality. Sure, if the ruler had supernatural powers they could have really conquered, but there is usually a much more likely, reality based explanation, even if neither is provable. In this way, the burden of proof is on the believer of the unlikely/supernatural explanation, not the doubter.

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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 12:27 am

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4string wrote: Jesus is a fictional character. No record of his birth, life, or death has ever been found other than the New Testament (NT). You can not take the Bibles as fact because they are so full of impossibilities, and contradictions. How could a perfect being write such imperfect books?

None of the main characters in the OT or the NT can be prove to have lived. Sure some of the rulers of the time mentioned in the Bibles are known to have lived, but Jesus, Moses, Noah, no records of them are available. Moses was a prince of Egypt for a time still no record of him. Sure the Bible says that it was ordered that his name be stricken. How convenient. Still no record survived? No Egyptian records of the exodus and all that took place before hand to allow it were written durring or since?

As far as Atheist morals. I believe we are more moral than most of religious faiths. We truly practice the Golden Rule because we believe this life is all we have, and to make the most of it we can. By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered. We do not believe we will be judged after death, but are judged every day. We do not hate a whole group of people because of their beliefs, color, nationality, as a lot of religious people do. We judge people as the individuals they are. As we want to be judged. To me most Christians are the worst about judging others. Because their teachings tell them to do different. But then again as long as they get it in in time they can be forgiven for all sins.

You know 4string ,I have been working on the family tree for alittle over two years and can't for the life of me find record of birth on my GG Grandfathers ,does that mean they didn't exist ,I did find where he was recorded in the 1880 census recorded he was born in 1862 .I beleive it, but someone else wrote it ,and you are asking about records thousands of years ago ........."By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered."Kinda odd that you wrote this ,think about it .. I would say by the impression Jesus left along the way is how he was remembered ......Firefly

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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 10:18 pm

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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 09:38 pm

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If you really wanted an answer you would find one.Go to church one Sunday you will hear your answer.

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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 06:49 pm

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4string wrote:A few question..

If God is all-powerful, why did He take 6 days to create the universe, resting on the 7th? Why didn't He just snap his proverbial fingers and create everything all at once, and not need rest afterwards? Doesn't sound so all-powerful to me.
The great flood: Why not just kill the people, and not all the animals? 40 days seems like overkill, doesn't it? Why torture the d**ned by drowning them slowly, instead of killing them in a blink with the all-powerful hand of God? After God killed all the people on the planet, why not make a better human, instead of allowing the species to continue after it had proven itself unworthy?
Why do other planets and stars exist? Whole galaxies? Why did God go to such extents to make us disbelieve the Bible?
Why are we here? If it is "to serve god", why does God need to be "served", and why can't we do it from heaven?
We have free will, but God already knows who will sin, who will accept Him, etc, for all eternity (since he has perfect knowledge of the future). He has in effect known you would be reading this article since the beginning of time. Given that, why not just send our souls (and those of our descendants) to Heaven or Hell, depending on what He knows we'll do?
Why does God care if he is praised? He is this all-knowing, super being, why does He care if we mere humans give him credit for creating all this?
How can anyone justify the fact that this merciful, loving god is sending all non-Christians to Hell, no matter how good they are? However, terrible people, including Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer, could go to Heaven if they accepted God before death
Why does this wonderful, forgiving God hold Adam's sin over all our heads? Why must we all pay for this by being permanent sinners? Again, God made the rules and this is God's choice, so you're going to have to explain why God CHOOSES to hold this incredible grudge.
If God was so angry, why didn't he just kill Adam and Eve and start over? He killed a lot of other people in the Bible for less.
Where did God come from? How did He get created? Why is it a valid argument to say that He "always existed", but an invalid argument to say the same thing about matter and energy?
If God is trying so hard to be near us, why doesn't He show himself? I mean, really, show himself to all of us? Why have there been no miracles since the Bible (note, I mean REAL miracles like the spontaneous end of disease or hunger)? Why not show yourself by giving all humans perfect knowledge of your existence (like angels) if it's so important to be praised by us?
Hell is used by many as a good reason in and of itself to practice religion. Hell, in theory, is so bad that the mere possibility of its existence - no matter how small - warrants prayer to God. This implies that religion is a self-serving decision, not an exercise in humility or praise. In other words, greed. Yes folks, one of the seven deadly sins. Furthermore, since God can apparently read minds, He will easily see through your futile attempt at deceiving Him and send you to Hell. Therefore, by this argument, prayer is useless; you're d**ned if you do, and d**ned if you don't.
Why believe the Bible over other stories of gods, like the Greek gods, Roman gods, or Celtic gods? They also answer all the questions, just like the Bible, and they all have the same corroboration (none) so why believe one over the other?

But wait! There's more! Let's talk Jesus!

What was Jesus' purpose? Common answer: "to save us from our sins." Why have a son (why not God himself), and why did he have to die for our sins? Why didn't God just "save us" himself? He is God, right? He can do whatever he wants, so why the whole Jesus thing?
Another response is to say that Jesus gave God a sense of what it's like to be human. Jesus did not give God a sense of life as a human. First of all, since God is all-knowing, he already had such a sense. Second, you can't get a sense of being human by walking around being the son of God. In order to know what it's like to be a human you need to go completely through life as a human. You need to fall in love, get married, have kids, pay taxes, and, most importantly, fail at something (which theists maintain did not happen, see #3). This response leads us to believe that God has no idea of what these basic principles are like.
Jesus was also supposed to be 100% perfect. Then why aren't we all Christian? He didn't do a perfect job of converting people (that was his purpose, right?), He didn't do a perfect job of spreading the message of peace (crusades, holy wars) despite a PERFECT knowledge of humans.

A perfect, all powerful being can only do something with perfect results. Ergo, either God did not intend to save all humans, rather a precious few, or he is imperfect. You choose.
"Jesus was God's intermediary." Why does an all-powerful being need an intermediary? He could give us all perfect knowledge of His existence with a snap of the fingers. Surely he could just, I don't know, talk to us?
"Jesus chose to die to take our place?" Nope. God made the rules, he can change them. He didn't need Jesus to save humans, all he needed to do was forgive sin. All God had to do was change his mind!

No, Jesus was neither useful nor needed. He did nothing God himself couldn't have done better, quicker, and easier.

Now, in synopsis, here are some interesting "facts" about God.

He knows the future, so he has known forever that Humans would be created, that he would flood the Earth, that he would send Jesus, and that most would reject Him. In effect, he set up his "children", whom he supposedly "loves", for that eternity in Hell.
He knows that, since Adam, billions of good, loving, hard-working people are spending an eternity in Hell because of ignorance and God's vanity, which He could reverse instantly but chooses not to.
He created awful diseases by the score and unleashed them on "his children" without care (even those who love and obey Him). He could cure all (God-made) diseases by snapping his fingers, but he won't.
He made the rules, and has the power to change them at will, but won't. In a snap, he could change everything, make all souls of good people go from Hell to Heaven, but refuses to do so.

What does this tell us about God? Well, there are only four options that are not contradictory to the above facts:

He is not nearly as powerful as we think he is - unlikely, because if he exists, he is strong enough to create the universe (even if it did take him 6 days)
He is stubborn to the point of malevolence - improbable, because he knows the future. Stubbornness implies unwillingness to change in light of new information, but an omniscient God would know all the information right from the start. Therefore, this option only holds water if God exists, but is not omniscient or all-powerful.
He is inherently malevolent - Logically flawed, just as a benevolent god would not unleash disease, pain, hunger and torment on his people, so would a malevolent god be loath to give us children, sunsets, and chocolate.
He is nonexistent, and the Bible is a work of fiction laden with massive flaws in logic, because it was made up by flawed humans over a period of time in an effort to subdue the masses. Any way you slice it, common sense and a little education always brings you here

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Last edited on Thu May 28th, 2009 06:51 pm by 4string

4string
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Posted: Thu May 28th, 2009 04:23 pm

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Jesus is a fictional character. No record of his birth, life, or death has ever been found other than the New Testament (NT). You can not take the Bibles as fact because they are so full of impossibilities, and contradictions. How could a perfect being write such imperfect books?

None of the main characters in the OT or the NT can be prove to have lived. Sure some of the rulers of the time mentioned in the Bibles are known to have lived, but Jesus, Moses, Noah, no records of them are available. Moses was a prince of Egypt for a time still no record of him. Sure the Bible says that it was ordered that his name be stricken. How convenient. Still no record survived? No Egyptian records of the exodus and all that took place before hand to allow it were written durring or since?

As far as Atheist morals. I believe we are more moral than most of religious faiths. We truly practice the Golden Rule because we believe this life is all we have, and to make the most of it we can. By the impression we leave along the way is how we will be remembered. We do not believe we will be judged after death, but are judged every day. We do not hate a whole group of people because of their beliefs, color, nationality, as a lot of religious people do. We judge people as the individuals they are. As we want to be judged. To me most Christians are the worst about judging others. Because their teachings tell them to do different. But then again as long as they get it in in time they can be forgiven for all sins.

newsie
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Joined:	Sun Nov 16th, 2008
Location:	Florida USA
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 02:59 pm

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That's fine. Yes I realize Christians generally think he was the son of God AND God, but that still conflicts directly with any belief that thinks he is neither. The two statements I posed are still mutually exclusive.

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