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okeegator
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Posted: Sat Feb 28th, 2009 06:19 pm |
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4string wrote: okeegator wrote: 4string wrote: How does nature keep itself balanced? Balance requires rules by which all things operate. If you don't have rules then you have chaos. If you have chaos then you can't maintain balance (see how logic works?) I'm not a biologest or any type of scientist, there are laws of nature, laws of physics that do tell people more educated than me how these things work, and I'm sure there are plenty of theories, and some facts. And so as an atheist you argue that these laws are by accident? Let me ask you, how are these laws (like gravity) measured? Do you deny that there are patterns in nature? Not at all I just deny that these patterns are caused by an invisable God. So then how did these laws come to exist? So then demonstrate a unicorn ..... Few years back one of the circus's had a unicorn. It was a goat with one horn but they billed it as a unicorn. Did it make it a unicorn as most people think of a Unicorn being a horse with mystical powers? No. Matter of fact I bet most people felt cheated. Exspecting a unicorn and getting a misformed goat. But you aren't demonstrating the existence of a unicorn. I can demonstrate the existence of a Creator by proving the existence of a design in nature. As you stated earlier, "there are laws of nature," ergo, there is design. And where there is a design, there must be a Designer. So you admit that science can't disprove God? And what is your common sense based on? Simple stubborness? No it is based on fact that no man could live in a whale for 3 days (oh sorry big fish). I don't know but I find it unlikely. The entire population with all its diverse races of the earth could not have come from one couple, I seem to remember scientists showing that there was a common genetic "mother". I will find out more on this. muchless twice, and many other imposibilities that the bible claimes could never of happened. These are things science can disprove. I had (can't find it) a book to had scientific explanations of many of the miracles/strange happenings in the Bible. You can not have true faith unless you believe it all. nowhere dose the Bible say anything about it being ok to inturprit what it says. It is the word of God there for it must too be perfect,,,One of the worst editing jobs ever. Dead Sea Scrolls 50 years since they were dicovered, still not published. Why? Why were they left out?
Give me a link http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html This one is a good quick one but it makes the point. I'll check it out. I don't know who you are including with "we". There are still many religions out there that have numerous deities. Monotheism is not accepted by many in the world. Getting picky on little wording mistakes now are you, come on I expected better than that from you? You said "we"; I am merely holding you to what you said. And that is where a new debate begins - which one is right? Easy they are all wrong.
That's rather presumptuous, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you somehow "know" God does not exist.
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Feb 28th, 2009 06:12 pm |
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4string wrote: I watched Riligulous last night. Bill Mahar got alot of the same nonanswers, and just blank stares when there was no answer I always have.
Lol - did you see the trucker get mad and leave just because he was asking questions? I have relatives that do that. If they cant explain their own religion, there is a problem there.
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4string
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Posted: Sat Feb 28th, 2009 06:00 pm |
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okeegator wrote: 4string wrote: Nature its self is at balance. It is just a natural occurrance. This dose not mean it is kept in balance by some unseen creator. Nature is self balancing. Of course we try to knock it out of balance every chance we get. How does nature keep itself balanced? Balance requires rules by which all things operate. If you don't have rules then you have chaos. If you have chaos then you can't maintain balance (see how logic works?) I'm not a biologest or any type of scientist, there are laws of nature, laws of physics that do tell people more educated than me how these things work, and I'm sure there are plenty of theories, and some facts. There are also people looking every day to answer some of the yet to be answered questions. But again to say it is all controled by a God, and leave it at that then we would all still be sitting in caves eatting raw meat. Do you deny that there are patterns in nature? Not at all I just deny that these patterns are caused by an invisable God. Disproving a God is not hard there is no evidence at all that there is a God. Proving there is is a God is what can't be done (See my response above about "balance") I can use logic to demonstrate that God exists. Well do it. I noticed you used the word demonstrate, not prove. I can demonstrate a Unicorn, dose it make them real? So then demonstrate a unicorn ..... Few years back one of the circus's had a unicorn. It was a goat with one horn but they billed it as a unicorn. Did it make it a unicorn as most people think of a Unicorn being a horse with mystical powers? No. Matter of fact I bet most people felt cheated. Exspecting a unicorn and getting a misformed goat. You can't use science or logic to disprove God. No just common sence So you admit that science can't disprove God? And what is your common sense based on? Simple stubborness? No it is based on fact that no man could live in a whale for 3 days (oh sorry big fish). The entire population with all its diverse races of the earth could not have come from one couple, muchless twice, and many other imposibilities that the bible claimes could never of happened. These are things science can disprove. You can not have true faith unless you believe it all. nowhere dose the Bible say anything about it being ok to inturprit what it says. It is the word of God there for it must too be perfect,,,One of the worst editing jobs ever. Dead Sea Scrolls 50 years since they were dicovered, still not published. Why? Why were they left out?
No says history. Type history of religion into you browser. Give me a link http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html This one is a good quick one but it makes the point. So what? You do realize that as long as we have a written record there is evidence that man believed in the divine. Yes and that divine has taken many forms every thing from nonexistent creatures to stars to the wind, and fire, religion has "Evolved" to were now we only have to worry about one God. A very jealous God who only allows for you to worship him. I don't know who you are including with "we". There are still many religions out there that have numerous deities. Monotheism is not accepted by many in the world. Getting picky on little wording mistakes now are you, come on I expected better than that from you? It depends on which religion the explanation comes from. Whos right then? They can't all be right. Why is it when god did make an appearance he only talks to one person? Noah, Moses, Why not as an all powerful God tell every one? Profit is the right word for those who claim to speak to God because that is what is they seek to make.. And that is where a new debate begins - which one is right? Easy they are all wrong.
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okeegator
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Posted: Sat Feb 28th, 2009 04:12 pm |
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4string wrote: Nature its self is at balance. It is just a natural occurrance. This dose not mean it is kept in balance by some unseen creator. Nature is self balancing. Of course we try to knock it out of balance every chance we get. How does nature keep itself balanced? Balance requires rules by which all things operate. If you don't have rules then you have chaos. If you have chaos then you can't maintain balance (see how logic works?) Do you deny that there are patterns in nature? Disproving a God is not hard there is no evidence at all that there is a God. Proving there is is a God is what can't be done (See my response above about "balance") I can use logic to demonstrate that God exists. Well do it. I noticed you used the word demonstrate, not prove. I can demonstrate a Unicorn, dose it make them real? So then demonstrate a unicorn ..... You can't use science or logic to disprove God. No just common sence So you admit that science can't disprove God? And what is your common sense based on? Simple stubborness?
No says history. Type history of religion into you browser. Give me a link So what? You do realize that as long as we have a written record there is evidence that man believed in the divine. Yes and that divine has taken many forms every thing from nonexistent creatures to stars to the wind, and fire, religion has "Evolved" to were now we only have to worry about one God. A very jealous God who only allows for you to worship him. I don't know who you are including with "we". There are still many religions out there that have numerous deities. Monotheism is not accepted by many in the world. It depends on which religion the explanation comes from. Whos right then? They can't all be right. Why is it when god did make an appearance he only talks to one person? Noah, Moses, Why not as an all powerful God tell every one? Profit is the right word for those who claim to speak to God because that is what is they seek to make.. And that is where a new debate begins - which one is right?
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4string
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Posted: Sat Feb 28th, 2009 02:42 pm |
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| I watched Riligulous last night. Bill Mahar got alot of the same nonanswers, and just blank stares when there was no answer I always have.
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4string
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Posted: Sat Feb 28th, 2009 01:24 pm |
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okeegator wrote: 4string wrote: The JWs don't come to my door any more. They finally gave up trying to answer my questions. There only answers were faith, or the Bible says.
As far as the Big Bang. We don't really know there was a Big Bang it is but one therory. The Universe may have just always been here. I'll repeat a previous statement: That's no different than someone saying that God always existed, and yet that belief is scoffed at. I believe that the universe was created by looking at two simple things. First, the order, logic, and patterns in nature demonstrate the existence of something that was not random. It was purposeful. Second, this order in the universe is an extension of the force that started it. The original cause. The label by man given to that origin or source is God - Creator of the universe. Nature its self is at balance. It is just a natural occurrance. This dose not mean it is kept in balance by some unseen creator. Nature is self balancing. Of course we try to knock it out of balance every chance we get.
I don't know because no one dose. But to just use the exsistance of a God as a way to explain every thing is wrong. Why? Because you can't disprove God so therefore it's wrong? Like I said to Ava L Disproving a God is not hard there is no evidence at all that there is a God. Proving there is is a God is what can't be done I can use logic to demonstrate that God exists. Well do it. I noticed you used the word demonstrate, not prove. I can demonstrate a Unicorn, dose it make them real? You can't use science or logic to disprove God. No just common sence
And God has not always been here he did not show up untill about 2000BC. Says who, you? Where did you get the date? No says history. Type history of religion into you browser. Again I ask where was he before then? The beliefe in one God did not start untill 4000 years ago. So what? You do realize that as long as we have a written record there is evidence that man believed in the divine. Yes and that divine has taken many forms every thing from nonexistent creatures to stars to the wind, and fire, religion has "Evolved" to were now we only have to worry about one God. A very jealous God who only allows for you to worship him. Why if he has always been? No one has yet to answer this. It depends on which religion the explanation comes from. Whos right then? They can't all be right. Why is it when god did make an appearance he only talks to one person? Noah, Moses, Why not as an all powerful God tell every one? Profit is the right word for those who claim to speak to God because that is what is they seek to make..
Last edited on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 02:51 pm by 4string
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okeegator
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 07:21 pm |
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4string wrote: The JWs don't come to my door any more. They finally gave up trying to answer my questions. There only answers were faith, or the Bible says.
As far as the Big Bang. We don't really know there was a Big Bang it is but one therory. The Universe may have just always been here. I'll repeat a previous statement: That's no different than someone saying that God always existed, and yet that belief is scoffed at. I believe that the universe was created by looking at two simple things. First, the order, logic, and patterns in nature demonstrate the existence of something that was not random. It was purposeful. Second, this order in the universe is an extension of the force that started it. The original cause. The label by man given to that origin or source is God - Creator of the universe.
I don't know because no one dose. But to just use the exsistance of a God as a way to explain every thing is wrong. Why? Because you can't disprove God so therefore it's wrong? Like I said to Ava L I can use logic to demonstrate that God exists. You can't use science or logic to disprove God.
And God has not always been here he did not show up untill about 2000BC. Says who, you? Where did you get the date? Again I ask where was he before then? The beliefe in one God did not start untill 4000 years ago. So what? You do realize that as long as we have a written record there is evidence that man believed in the divine. Why if he has always been? No one has yet to answer this. It depends on which religion the explanation comes from.
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4string
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 06:13 pm |
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The JWs don't come to my door any more. They finally gave up trying to answer my questions. There only answers were faith, or the Bible says.
As far as the Big Bang. We don't really know there was a Big Bang it is but one therory. The Universe may have just always been here. I don't know because no one dose. But to just use the exsistance of a God as a way to explain every thing is wrong. And God has not always been here he did not show up untill about 2000BC. Again I ask where was he before then? The beliefe in one God did not start untill 4000 years ago. Why if he has always been? No one has yet to answer this.
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flsr
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 02:05 am |
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CitizenGC wrote: flsr wrote: squatlow wrote: CitizenGC wrote: Been there, done that with plenty of denominations. The Song Remains the Same. No concrete answers, just speculation.
and that's just the reason I quit asking 
I have a feeling you might have wanted an argument more than the truth, but that's okay. Maybe another point in time you will be ready.
No argument here FLSR, I'm trying to get an understanding of the whole concept of religions. I grew up in the catholic church, I question those beliefs also after all these years even though I gave it up many years ago. If I want to argue, I'll call you out. I thought you would understand the difference from reading my posts in the past, I was honestly trying to be sincere in asking the questions in an open discussion..
I didn't mean arguing with me, I meant the ones you may have come into contact along the way and questioned about scriptural things. I realize you were not being argumentative with me, now. I could be wrong but I think I remembered some kind of joke you (or someone else?) made about ingenious ways of getting rid of Jehovah's Witnesses.
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 01:48 am |
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flsr wrote: squatlow wrote: CitizenGC wrote: Been there, done that with plenty of denominations. The Song Remains the Same. No concrete answers, just speculation.
and that's just the reason I quit asking
I have a feeling you might have wanted an argument more than the truth, but that's okay. Maybe another point in time you will be ready.
No argument here FLSR, I'm trying to get an understanding of the whole concept of religions. I grew up in the catholic church, I question those beliefs also after all these years even though I gave it up many years ago. If I want to argue, I'll call you out. I thought you would understand the difference from reading my posts in the past, I was honestly trying to be sincere in asking the questions in an open discussion..
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flsr
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 12:20 am |
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squatlow wrote: CitizenGC wrote: Been there, done that with plenty of denominations. The Song Remains the Same. No concrete answers, just speculation.
and that's just the reason I quit asking
I have a feeling you might have wanted an argument more than the truth, but that's okay. Maybe another point in time you will be ready.
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OkeeNarnie
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 12:20 am |
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CitizenGC wrote: flsr wrote: We all have the choice to pursue it or drop it. If you don't have the right heart condition when reading/studying the Bible you would likely remain blind to it's truth.
What your saying is that if I have doubts about the Bible, it would not do me any good to read it since I would ask questions and not totally believe in it's writings and teachings. And because my heart would not be in the right place to begin with by asking questions, I would remain blind to it's truth. Very interesting.....
In a way that is correct.
Having Faith is To believe in something you cannot hold or see.
Now Christians have Faith in God. Faith which sustains us through many of life's trials which some question how we are able to endure it all. (God will place no more upon us then we can handle, and turning to him for help will lighten our load)
We also believe that as we get closer to the end of time as we know it ... Christian persons will have their Faith questioned. Many will not believe as we do, and they will not understand how we can have this Faith. Belief in something non tangible. They will want some proof...and we cannot show it to them. They will look upon us as foolish. ....
and yes this IS in the Bible.
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squatlow
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 12:15 am |
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CitizenGC wrote: Been there, done that with plenty of denominations. The Song Remains the Same. No concrete answers, just speculation.
and that's just the reason I quit asking
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 12:14 am |
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flsr wrote: CitizenGC wrote: flsr wrote: We all have the choice to pursue it or drop it. If you don't have the right heart condition when reading/studying the Bible you would likely remain blind to it's truth.
What your saying is that if I have doubts about the Bible, it would not do me any good to read it since I would ask questions and not totally believe in it's writings and teachings. And because my heart would not be in the right place to begin with by asking questions, I would remain blind to it's truth. Very interesting.....
I suggested that you request a Bible study, did I not? The next time one of Jehovah's Witnesses call on you, ask them the questions you have and they will help you.
Been there, done that with plenty of denominations. The Song Remains the Same. No concrete answers, just speculation.
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flsr
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 12:09 am |
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CitizenGC wrote: flsr wrote: We all have the choice to pursue it or drop it. If you don't have the right heart condition when reading/studying the Bible you would likely remain blind to it's truth.
What your saying is that if I have doubts about the Bible, it would not do me any good to read it since I would ask questions and not totally believe in it's writings and teachings. And because my heart would not be in the right place to begin with by asking questions, I would remain blind to it's truth. Very interesting.....
I suggested that you request a Bible study, did I not? The next time one of Jehovah's Witnesses call on you, ask them the questions you have and they will help you.
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 12:00 am |
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flsr wrote: We all have the choice to pursue it or drop it. If you don't have the right heart condition when reading/studying the Bible you would likely remain blind to it's truth.
What your saying is that if I have doubts about the Bible, it would not do me any good to read it since I would ask questions and not totally believe in it's writings and teachings. And because my heart would not be in the right place to begin with by asking questions, I would remain blind to it's truth. Very interesting.....Last edited on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 12:00 am by CitizenGC
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flsr
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 11:50 pm |
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CitizenGC wrote: flsr wrote: CitizenGC wrote: flsr wrote:
He has always existed.
If he has always existed, where did he come from. He had to come from somewhere at some point in time. Or are you saying he just popped up out of nowhere and started life ? I don't think Gods hometown is in the Bible, is it ?
I have faith that the Bible is the word of God. I can tell by your posts that you do not. So be it. If you would read it , the truth there would be revealed to you. If you have a hard time understanding it, request some help in the form of a Bible study.
Thats a cop out, faith has nothing to do with it. I've read the Bible and it and it revealed nothing but more questions, so your telling me that I should have faith in what the Bible says and that it's all true and leave it at that.
We all have the choice to pursue it or drop it. If you don't have the right heart condition when reading/studying the Bible you would likely remain blind to it's truth.
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 11:34 pm |
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flsr wrote: CitizenGC wrote: flsr wrote:
He has always existed.
If he has always existed, where did he come from. He had to come from somewhere at some point in time. Or are you saying he just popped up out of nowhere and started life ? I don't think Gods hometown is in the Bible, is it ?
I have faith that the Bible is the word of God. I can tell by your posts that you do not. So be it. If you would read it , the truth there would be revealed to you. If you have a hard time understanding it, request some help in the form of a Bible study.
Thats a cop out, faith has nothing to do with it. I've read the Bible and it and it revealed nothing but more questions, so your telling me that I should have faith in what the Bible says and that it's all true and leave it at that.
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flsr
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 11:10 pm |
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CitizenGC wrote: flsr wrote:
He has always existed.
If he has always existed, where did he come from. He had to come from somewhere at some point in time. Or are you saying he just popped up out of nowhere and started life ? I don't think Gods hometown is in the Bible, is it ?
I have faith that the Bible is the word of God. I can tell by your posts that you do not. So be it. If you would read it , the truth there would be revealed to you. If you have a hard time understanding it, request some help in the form of a Bible study.
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 11:05 pm |
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CitizenGC wrote:
If he has always existed, where did he come from. He had to come from somewhere at some point in time.
Exactly my point. There has to be an origin out there somewhere. Scientifically, we have not found it yet. Religions "say" that they have. Or are you saying he just popped up out of nowhere and started life ? I don't think Gods hometown is in the Bible, is it ?
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:58 pm |
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flsr wrote:
He has always existed.
If he has always existed, where did he come from. He had to come from somewhere at some point in time. Or are you saying he just popped up out of nowhere and started life ? I don't think Gods hometown is in the Bible, is it ?
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flsr
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:53 pm |
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It is too bad that people can't accept the Bible. The answers are all in there. God is a power. He is the Alpha and Omega. He has always existed.
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AvaL
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:52 pm |
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CitizenGC wrote: AvaL wrote: God is a being
If God is a being, where did God originate from. How did God come about ?
Again - That is how God is referred to, which I explained. I do not believe God exists - therefore I cannot answer you question.
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:46 pm |
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AvaL wrote: God is a being
If God is a being, where did God originate from. How did God come about ?
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:45 pm |
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AvaL wrote:
God is a being - that is how HE is referred to by religious people. I don't need to explain that to you. I can say Unicorns are part horse - but that doesn't mean i believe they exist. No scientific person is saying nothing came before the Big Bang, like you say they are. Some actually try to argue that point.
They admit they don't know, but strive to find the answers - not just accept stories based on nothing. Based on nothing? Mine is based on logic? Amazingly, science operates by the same principle. Isn't it amazing that all of that science is based upon the logic and reason of mathematics? That math can be used to explain the universe? That math is used by scientists to come up with theories and to conjecture about our origins? Its almost like it was there all along for us to discover the complexities of the universe. Or maybe all of that order arose from nothing?
The Christian religion is based on old mythologies used to explain why the sun rose every day and fell at night. Why people died. Why there are stars in the sky. The bible says one being created humans - in human form - from nothing. This has been proven wrong. You can say you can interpret the bible to mean something else, which is fine, you can. But you can twist anything written by people to fit any explanation. Going after Christianity still does not provide an argument that God does not exist. Science cannot disprove the existence of God unless it can explain the origin of the universe. Once it can explain the origin, it will have found the Originator - God.
If your the type of person that wants to use science to prove religion, thats fine. But there are people who believe evolution doesn't exist.
I can use logic to demonstrate that God exists. You can't use science or logic to disprove God. I guess that is fine.
That the earth is 5,000 years old. Grouping people into two distinct categories isn't possible. If people want to use science to prove religion, i am for it, because in the end the truth is all that matters and benefits everyone, but the people who ignore science and ignore facts make it difficult for scientific people to listen to them.
And people ignoring logic makes it difficult to listen to atheists.
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AvaL
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:33 pm |
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okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote:
No. God is a being. So you believe there is a God? If not, then how could you characterize God as a being? So it fits neatly into your attempts to explain religion?
And that is not an acceptable answer for the beginning of the universe. Why? Because you say so? Give a reason to back up your argument. Like 4string said - it is an explanation by people who can't accept the fact that they might just be here due to randomness and there is no real purpose.
It seems to me that you are the one who has given up on the thinking. You can't explain how it all came into being. Neither can I since it is beyond human understanding. The Big Bang is a theory that explains the beginning of the universe as we know it, but it does not disprove "God". Where did the original matter come from? What force acted upon that matter to make it expand? You say that man created God to explain it but yet you can't seem to explain what created that matter or what started the Big Bang. You can claim you are not a scientist but that merely demonstrates that you are accepting their explanations on faith.
Let's put it this way. Say that the Big Bang is point on a timeline at which scientists believe the universe began. Those of use who believe in a Creator understand that something came before that point. You and your kind are unwilling to accept it. So tell me, who is being close-minded?
Then some like yourself say that the universe always existed. That's no different than someone saying that God always existed, and yet that belief is scoffed at. I believe that the universe was created by looking at two simple things. First, the order, logic, and patterns in nature demonstrate the existence of something that was not random. It was purposeful. Second, this order in the universe is an extension of the force that started it. The original cause. The label by man given to that origin or source is God - Creator of the universe.
God is a being - that is how HE is referred to by religious people. I don't need to explain that to you. I can say Unicorns are part horse - but that doesn't mean i believe they exist. No scientific person is saying nothing came before the Big Bang, like you say they are. They admit they don't know, but strive to find the answers - not just accept stories based on nothing.
The Christian religion is based on old mythologies used to explain why the sun rose every day and fell at night. Why people died. Why there are stars in the sky. The bible says one being created humans - in human form - from nothing. This has been proven wrong. You can say you can interpret the bible to mean something else, which is fine, you can. But you can twist anything written by people to fit any explanation.
If your the type of person that wants to use science to prove religion, thats fine. But there are people who believe evolution doesn't exist. That the earth is 5,000 years old. Grouping people into two distinct categories isn't possible. If people want to use science to prove religion, i am for it, because in the end the truth is all that matters and benefits everyone, but the people who ignore science and ignore facts make it difficult for scientific people to listen to them.
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:21 pm |
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AvaL wrote:
No. God is a being. So you believe there is a God? If not, then how could you characterize God as a being? So it fits neatly into your attempts to explain religion?
And that is not an acceptable answer for the beginning of the universe. Why? Because you say so? Give a reason to back up your argument. Like 4string said - it is an explanation by people who can't accept the fact that they might just be here due to randomness and there is no real purpose.
It seems to me that you are the one who has given up on the thinking. You can't explain how it all came into being. Neither can I since it is beyond human understanding. The Big Bang is a theory that explains the beginning of the universe as we know it, but it does not disprove "God". Where did the original matter come from? What force acted upon that matter to make it expand? You say that man created God to explain it but yet you can't seem to explain what created that matter or what started the Big Bang. You can claim you are not a scientist but that merely demonstrates that you are accepting their explanations on faith.
Let's put it this way. Say that the Big Bang is point on a timeline at which scientists believe the universe began. Those of use who believe in a Creator understand that something came before that point. You and your kind are unwilling to accept it. So tell me, who is being close-minded?
Then some like yourself say that the universe always existed. That's no different than someone saying that God always existed, and yet that belief is scoffed at. I believe that the universe was created by looking at two simple things. First, the order, logic, and patterns in nature demonstrate the existence of something that was not random. It was purposeful. Second, this order in the universe is an extension of the force that started it. The original cause. The label by man given to that origin or source is God - Creator of the universe.
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AvaL
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:17 pm |
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okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: Scientists don't believe that the universe came from nothing - they just say that with the Big Bang all evidence of whatever was here previously has been destroyed - but they are trying to figure out what was there. There is evidence that life has been on Earth for MILLIONS of years, and that evolution does exist. There is no evidence of a God just creating life as we know it.
Then how was life created? Evolution, right?
So then how were the conditions put in place for evolution to have taken place?
Randomness? Luck? Things are discovered and created all the time because of randomness. We don't know if there is life on other planets, so we dont know yet whether this was a one time thing.
And where did those planets and that life come from?
They already said they dont know. The big bang? Maybe. The fact is, there is a traceable line following science. None for religion.
Where did it all come from? Scientists can't answer it either. They surmise, they guess, but in the end they cannot answer the questions because our finite minds are incapable of comprehending it.
They do not know the origins of the universe because they cannot escape the underlying logic of the question, "What came before that?" or "What was its cause?"
Scientists have drawn a line (the Big Bang) at a point they feel comfortable to admit that they can't answer the next logical question. They assume, or have faith, that scientific explanation will lead them to the previous cause, but the problem is explaining the next cause, then the next, and then the next. You can't escape it.
God is that original cause that you painfully admit you "don't know". God is somewhere at the beginning of it all. We just don't know how far back the explanation goes.
But you must wonder how a universe apparently governed by rationality and logic can be created out of nothing. If the universe has a design, it must have a designer. That is logic plain and simple. Religion in the general sense is the belief/faith that there is a God out there who created it all. Belief in God is not irrational .
No. God is a being. And that is not an acceptable answer for the beginning of the universe. Like 4string said - it is an explanation by people who can't accept the fact that they might just be here due to randomness and there is no real purpose.
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:09 pm |
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AvaL wrote: okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: Scientists don't believe that the universe came from nothing - they just say that with the Big Bang all evidence of whatever was here previously has been destroyed - but they are trying to figure out what was there. There is evidence that life has been on Earth for MILLIONS of years, and that evolution does exist. There is no evidence of a God just creating life as we know it.
Then how was life created? Evolution, right?
So then how were the conditions put in place for evolution to have taken place?
Randomness? Luck? Things are discovered and created all the time because of randomness. We don't know if there is life on other planets, so we dont know yet whether this was a one time thing.
And where did those planets and that life come from?
They already said they dont know. The big bang? Maybe. The fact is, there is a traceable line following science. None for religion.
Where did it all come from? Scientists can't answer it either. They surmise, they guess, but in the end they cannot answer the questions because our finite minds are incapable of comprehending it.
They do not know the origins of the universe because they cannot escape the underlying logic of the question, "What came before that?" or "What was its cause?"
Scientists have drawn a line (the Big Bang) at a point they feel comfortable to admit that they can't answer the next logical question. They assume, or have faith, that scientific explanation will lead them to the previous cause, but the problem is explaining the next cause, then the next, and then the next. You can't escape it.
God is that original cause that you painfully admit you "don't know". God is somewhere at the beginning of it all. We just don't know how far back the explanation goes.
But you must wonder how a universe apparently governed by rationality and logic can be created out of nothing. If the universe has a design, it must have a designer. That is logic plain and simple. Religion in the general sense is the belief/faith that there is a God out there who created it all. Belief in God is not irrational .
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AvaL
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:07 pm |
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okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: Scientists don't believe that the universe came from nothing - they just say that with the Big Bang all evidence of whatever was here previously has been destroyed - but they are trying to figure out what was there. There is evidence that life has been on Earth for MILLIONS of years, and that evolution does exist. There is no evidence of a God just creating life as we know it.
Then how was life created? Evolution, right?
So then how were the conditions put in place for evolution to have taken place?
Randomness? Luck? Things are discovered and created all the time because of randomness. We don't know if there is life on other planets, so we dont know yet whether this was a one time thing.
And where did those planets and that life come from?
They already said they dont know. The big bang? Maybe. The fact is, there is a traceable line following science. None for religion.
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:03 pm |
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AvaL wrote: okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: Scientists don't believe that the universe came from nothing - they just say that with the Big Bang all evidence of whatever was here previously has been destroyed - but they are trying to figure out what was there. There is evidence that life has been on Earth for MILLIONS of years, and that evolution does exist. There is no evidence of a God just creating life as we know it.
Then how was life created? Evolution, right?
So then how were the conditions put in place for evolution to have taken place?
Randomness? Luck? Things are discovered and created all the time because of randomness. We don't know if there is life on other planets, so we dont know yet whether this was a one time thing.
And where did those planets and that life come from?
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AvaL
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:02 pm |
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okeegator wrote: AvaL wrote: Scientists don't believe that the universe came from nothing - they just say that with the Big Bang all evidence of whatever was here previously has been destroyed - but they are trying to figure out what was there. There is evidence that life has been on Earth for MILLIONS of years, and that evolution does exist. There is no evidence of a God just creating life as we know it.
Then how was life created? Evolution, right?
So then how were the conditions put in place for evolution to have taken place?
Randomness? Luck? Things are discovered and created all the time because of randomness. We don't know if there is life on other planets, so we dont know yet whether this was a one time thing.
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 09:56 pm |
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AvaL wrote: Scientists don't believe that the universe came from nothing - they just say that with the Big Bang all evidence of whatever was here previously has been destroyed - but they are trying to figure out what was there. There is evidence that life has been on Earth for MILLIONS of years, and that evolution does exist. There is no evidence of a God just creating life as we know it.
Then how was life created? Evolution, right?
So then how were the conditions put in place for evolution to have taken place?
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AvaL
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 09:52 pm |
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Scientists don't believe that the universe came from nothing - they just say that with the Big Bang all evidence of whatever was here previously has been destroyed - but they are trying to figure out what was there. There is evidence that life has been on Earth for MILLIONS of years, and that evolution does exist. There is no evidence of a God just creating life as we know it.
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 09:39 pm |
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4string wrote: okeegator wrote: 4string wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote:
A created universe vs. accident (?)
God vs. No God(s)
thoughts?
bump
I'll bump it again.
No creation. Not by some all powerful, all seeing, all controling being.
The Big Bang maybe just a theroy, but religion, and creation are myths.
Then what came before the Big Bang?
I have no idea Exactly, so denying that there is an origin of all things seems contradictory.
Why did there have to be anything. Maybe there was a universe before that imploded, and started all over again?? Imploded from what? You are telling me that all in the universe came from nothing? How did all of the patterns that exist in the universe come about if in the beginning there was "nothing"? But using a God to explain that which we do not understand is just lazy. But how else would you explain the origins of the universe as we know it? I think it is more lazy and absurd to just say that it all just happened. We use to think the earth was flat and the center of the universe. We now know its is not flat and nowhere near the center. Its just one of millions specks of dust floating around in space. And isn't it interesting to note that as we learn more about our universe we realize two things: the greater degree of complexity and the patterns by which it operates. That in its self knocked our self righteous opinions of our self's down a few notches. It is interesting to note how often that happens to people in the scientific world as well.
Next the religious will be compensating for the inaccuracies in the Bible by saying God caused the Big Bang. Then tell me this, what did cause the Big Bang? Pope John Paul already said creation, and evolution both happened. Just like a Day to God has gone from being a day to 1000 years to 10000000 years. Noah's world flood has turned into well maybe just a part of the world. A lot of the stories from the Bible have gone from being actual events to just stories meant to make a point. It is interesting to note that both religious leaders and scientists must rethink their orthodoxy.
I watched on PBS where they have found that the Exodus never happened. Much less any of the things Joshua was spouse to have done. Solomon and David they think did exist, but their kingdom was nothing like as described in the Bible.
In the Old Testament God would make a cameo appearance every now and then ( world flood, burning bush, destroy a city here or there, turn people into salt, tell us to kill one of our kids, little things like that) to put us in check. Why have we not heard from him in over 5000 years? Many say they have. Maybe you haven't been listening? I'm sure Vegas, Bangkok, Olongapo in the Philippines could use some divine intervention. I've seen things in Tijuana that would put Sodom to shame. Still we hear nothing. Sure there are plenty of Evangelist that speak with God, and he tells them to tell you to send them money. "Dirtbags" is a more suitable term.
I know there are alot of very intelligent, well educated people out there that believe in God. It makes me question why?
Why not? I don't see how one can say that this all came from nothing. There must have been a source, an origin. The only answer I can come up with is the fear of death, and it being the end. They so convienced of their own self importance that they are convinced that they must live for ever. If not here than an after life.
There is a saying " Every one wants to go to Heaven, but no one wants to die to get there"
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OkeeNarnie
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 09:27 pm |
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All I can add is: B-I-B-L-E
Basic Information Before Leaving Earth
Don't Leave Home Without It!
Believe It Or Not - The Choice is yours
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4string
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 08:58 pm |
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okeegator wrote: 4string wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote:
A created universe vs. accident (?)
God vs. No God(s)
thoughts?
bump
I'll bump it again.
No creation. Not by some all powerful, all seeing, all controling being.
The Big Bang maybe just a theroy, but religion, and creation are myths.
Then what came before the Big Bang?
I have no idea Why did there have to be anything. Maybe there was a universe before that imploded, and started all over again?? But using a God to explain that which we do not understand is just lazy. We use to think the earth was flat and the center of the universe. We now know its is not flat and nowhere near the center. Its just one of millions specks of dust floating around in space. That in its self knocked our self righteous opinions of our self's down a few notches.
Next the religious will be compensating for the inaccuracies in the Bible by saying God caused the Big Bang. Pope John Paul already said creation, and evolution both happened. Just like a Day to God has gone from being a day to 1000 years to 10000000 years. Noah's world flood has turned into well maybe just a part of the world. A lot of the stories from the Bible have gone from being actual events to just stories meant to make a point.
I watched on PBS where they have found that the Exodus never happened. Much less any of the things Joshua was spouse to have done. Solomon and David they think did exist, but their kingdom was nothing like as described in the Bible.
In the Old Testament God would make a cameo appearance every now and then ( world flood, burning bush, destroy a city here or there, turn people into salt, tell us to kill one of our kids, little things like that) to put us in check. Why have we not heard from him in over 5000 years? I'm sure Vegas, Bangkok, Olongapo in the Philippines could use some divine intervention. I've seen things in Tijuana that would put Sodom to shame. Still we hear nothing. Sure there are plenty of Evangelist that speak with God, and he tells them to tell you to send them money.
I know there are alot of very intelligent, well educated people out there that believe in God. It makes me question why? The only answer I can come up with is the fear of death, and it being the end. They so convienced of their own self importance that they are convinced that they must live for ever. If not here than an after life.
There is a saying " Every one wants to go to Heaven, but no one wants to die to get there"
Last edited on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 09:02 pm by 4string
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 07:43 pm |
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4string wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote:
A created universe vs. accident (?)
God vs. No God(s)
thoughts?
bump
I'll bump it again.
No creation. Not by some all powerful, all seeing, all controling being.
The Big Bang maybe just a theroy, but religion, and creation are myths.
Then what came before the Big Bang?
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AvaL
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 07:14 pm |
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4string wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote:
A created universe vs. accident (?)
God vs. No God(s)
thoughts?
bump
I'll bump it again.
No creation. Not by some all powerful, all seeing, all controling being.
The Big Bang maybe just a theroy, but religion, and creation are myths.
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4string
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 04:20 pm |
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okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote:
A created universe vs. accident (?)
God vs. No God(s)
thoughts?
bump
I'll bump it again.
No creation. Not by some all powerful, all seeing, all controling being.
The Big Bang maybe just a theroy, but religion, and creation are myths.
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Acid Rayne
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Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2009 06:31 am |
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okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote:
A created universe vs. accident (?)
God vs. No God(s)
thoughts?
bump
I'll bump it again.
created universe....By Gaia of course(Mother Earth)
Goddesses and Gods...
You asked and I shall respond 
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2009 04:20 am |
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The History of Religion - Parts I - II - III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxH3kKswoLg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PmVkCVqUWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1YS0pPzxKA
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okeegator
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Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2009 03:53 am |
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okeegator wrote: okeegator wrote:
A created universe vs. accident (?)
God vs. No God(s)
thoughts?
bump
I'll bump it again.
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AvaL
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Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2009 03:49 am |
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Acid Rayne wrote: AvaL wrote: 4string wrote: Two words about any religion...." Prove It" There is not any proof that Jesus even existed.(much less that he was the son of a God that there is no proof of) No records of his birth, life, or death. Other than The New Testament.
Why dose God get all of the credit but none of the blame? People that survive a natural disaster. Lady and her kids get washed away by flood waters in their car. When rescued they praise God for being with them, but don't blame God for putting them in the situation to begin with. I have seen it with tornado victims. " The tornado took the whole house, but God spared the room I was in." Did God decide they were in too big of a house and all they needed was the one room?
There is a movie out called Religulous. Can't wait to see it. Its on DVD.
It was pretty good, and done in the best way religion should be dealt with - humor. If you want, pm me, and I can link you to where you can watch it online.
EXCELLANT movie...we went to see it in the theater!! There is a part when he visits a "reborn christian" in his christian store and he askes the guys if heaven was such a great place and so glorious to get to, then why dont you just go kill yourself now and get there sooner..OMGESS..I about pee'd my pants of laughter...Defiantly good and worth buying..Ill be recording it when it comes on PP....
Haha - I loved the people who actually believe Jonah actually got swallowed by a whale - and then a big fish
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Acid Rayne
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Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2009 03:41 am |
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AvaL wrote: 4string wrote: Two words about any religion...." Prove It" There is not any proof that Jesus even existed.(much less that he was the son of a God that there is no proof of) No records of his birth, life, or death. Other than The New Testament.
Why dose God get all of the credit but none of the blame? People that survive a natural disaster. Lady and her kids get washed away by flood waters in their car. When rescued they praise God for being with them, but don't blame God for putting them in the situation to begin with. I have seen it with tornado victims. " The tornado took the whole house, but God spared the room I was in." Did God decide they were in too big of a house and all they needed was the one room?
There is a movie out called Religulous. Can't wait to see it. Its on DVD.
It was pretty good, and done in the best way religion should be dealt with - humor. If you want, pm me, and I can link you to where you can watch it online.
EXCELLANT movie...we went to see it in the theater!! There is a part when he visits a "reborn christian" in his christian store and he askes the guys if heaven was such a great place and so glorious to get to, then why dont you just go kill yourself now and get there sooner..OMGESS..I about pee'd my pants of laughter...Defiantly good and worth buying..Ill be recording it when it comes on PP....
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AvaL
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Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2009 12:34 am |
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4string wrote: Two words about any religion...." Prove It" There is not any proof that Jesus even existed.(much less that he was the son of a God that there is no proof of) No records of his birth, life, or death. Other than The New Testament.
Why dose God get all of the credit but none of the blame? People that survive a natural disaster. Lady and her kids get washed away by flood waters in their car. When rescued they praise God for being with them, but don't blame God for putting them in the situation to begin with. I have seen it with tornado victims. " The tornado took the whole house, but God spared the room I was in." Did God decide they were in too big of a house and all they needed was the one room?
There is a movie out called Religulous. Can't wait to see it. Its on DVD.
It was pretty good, and done in the best way religion should be dealt with - humor. If you want, pm me, and I can link you to where you can watch it online.
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 10:25 pm |
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| Some of us were hatched, the rest of us crawled out from under a rock.
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4string
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 10:09 pm |
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Two words about any religion...." Prove It" There is not any proof that Jesus even existed.(much less that he was the son of a God that there is no proof of) No records of his birth, life, or death. Other than The New Testament.
Why dose God get all of the credit but none of the blame? People that survive a natural disaster. Lady and her kids get washed away by flood waters in their car. When rescued they praise God for being with them, but don't blame God for putting them in the situation to begin with. I have seen it with tornado victims. " The tornado took the whole house, but God spared the room I was in." Did God decide they were in too big of a house and all they needed was the one room?
There is a movie out called Religulous. Can't wait to see it. Its on DVD.
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okeegator
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Posted: Thu Feb 19th, 2009 10:16 pm |
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okeegator wrote:
A created universe vs. accident (?)
God vs. No God(s)
thoughts?
bump
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flsr
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Posted: Thu Feb 19th, 2009 09:51 am |
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pops wrote: flsr wrote:
Sorry here,too. Boy we are a sorry bunch aren't we?
Looks like Pops posted it. Now Pops, my friend, I sure hope you don't want to jump all over me. I believe when we post articles some times we agree with them 100%, sometimes only a little, and sometimes just to put some some ideas out there for everyone to ponder and maybe comment on.
Sorry flsr for the confusion. I believe in God, I just posted that because I thought it was interesting to read. Seems like scientists are leaning to the big bang theory and evolution, rather than creationisim. It was only food for thought. The Einstein thing was also interesting, I certianly didn't mean to say everyone should follow his beliefs.
The points that got me, were the ones about how the smarter you are the less apt you are to believe in God and the Bible accounts of history. Oh well, so I'm not smart. If there's a choice I would rather be known for believing in God and the Bible rather than being smart. Somewhere in the Bible there is a statement to the effect that a wise man would be shown a fool and a fool would be the wise one.
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