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Sumocat
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 11:39 pm |
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TheGonzoJournalist wrote: Sumocat wrote: I wouldn't want to discontinue the entire youth program but it can be done on a much smaller scale without the possibility of losing $15,000. Many of us donated toward that trip at a time when it wasn't particularly financially convenient and the leader might as well have dumped it in the commode and pulled the handle. Yep, he should leave AND he should take the senior pastor with him since he is able to attend retreats and go on vacation but is seldom in the pulpit.
Wow. Honestly, do you even think, or do you just blither on like this all the time? The youth program is exclusive from the mission trip. The people that went fronted their own money under the knowledge of what they were doing, not the youth program. Granted, the congregation put their hand in it as well, but they too have nothing to do with the youth. If we were to have a youth program on a "smaller scale" then . . . what does that even mean? Sorry, Timmy, no, you can't learn about God here, we like to keep things on a "smaller scale," it keeps things "financially convenient" for all us of. Are you serious? And as for the donations that you claim, well, sheesh, donations should be made in good faith, not under some guarantee. Do you go to church and write a check, only to hope it doesn't clear properly if it's used in a way different than you would prefer? That defeats the whole purpose of the initial donation. And, if you'll read below what I'm writing here, the senior pastor has barely been able to stand over the last few years and has still managed to preach his all in the pulpit. Are you completely ignorant to that fact that you're, well, to say it plainly, completely ignorant?
The congregation has nothing to do with the youth? Who do you think supports their fund raisers? And who contributes to the facility they use...the air conditioned youth room and many of the donated items in it and the fellowship hall? Who contributes to the payroll for the custodian who provides the youth with clean rest rooms and cleans up after their mess? And what about the lady who cooks a meal nearly every Wednesday. I don't have a thing against the youth program. I just think it should be led by another leader.
Anyway, the Provost was delivered today. It's full of fuel and well stocked. I'll drive it past the church tomorrow so you can see where future donations went.
Tata to you as well.
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Meems
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 09:33 pm |
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cshell712 wrote: Whatever! it is just like people in Okeechobee to stretch the truth. I hate this town I wish I did not have to live here. I am ashamed to even tell people I live here, And I do
not tell anyone Important that I do.
OH MY another one of those people who think they are better thatn the average Okeechobee cave dweller LOL
I never can figure out why people think they have no choice and HAVE to live here. All you have to do id pack your bags and pick a hwy, there are several that will take you away from here. They go north south east and west so be on your way.
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lobster
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 09:24 pm |
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move out, no one cares
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 08:41 pm |
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cshell712 wrote: Whatever! it is just like people in Okeechobee to stretch the truth. I hate this town I wish I did not have to live here. I am ashamed to even tell people I live here, And I do
not tell anyone Important that I do.
Talk about pent up anger. Chill out, be cool. I have to admit though, I got a good chuckle when you capitalized the word important, like anyone important cares where you came from (and who is important, anyway?). If I had to bet, I'd say you're having a bad day, aren't you? Poor thing.
Gonzo out.
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cshell712
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 07:51 pm |
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OH and by the way IT DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE THAT OKEECHOBEE PEOPLE ARE TERRORIST !
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cshell712
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 07:47 pm |
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Whatever! it is just like people in Okeechobee to stretch the truth. I hate this town I wish I did not have to live here. I am ashamed to even tell people I live here, And I do
not tell anyone Important that I do.
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proud mother of 2
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 07:19 pm |
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| I would suggest that if Sumocat has so much built up hatred for the Pastor and the Assistant Pastor, Sumocat may be happier at another church. But, down deep in my soul, I just think that Sumocat will feel the same way at any church he or she may attend.
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 04:58 pm |
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tennischick95 wrote: Thank you, Gonzo. I think that Rev. Simpson is an amazing pastor and has done all he has been able to during the past two years of constantly in and out of the hospital. The same can be said about the youth pastor, if you remove the medical part. He is very dedicated to the church and youth program, and he does so much for the church.
Two thumbs up.
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tennischick95
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:18 pm |
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Thank you, Gonzo. I think that Rev. Simpson is an amazing pastor and has done all he has been able to during the past two years of constantly in and out of the hospital. The same can be said about the youth pastor, if you remove the medical part. He is very dedicated to the church and youth program, and he does so much for the church.
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 04:42 am |
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Sumocat wrote: I wouldn't want to discontinue the entire youth program but it can be done on a much smaller scale without the possibility of losing $15,000. Many of us donated toward that trip at a time when it wasn't particularly financially convenient and the leader might as well have dumped it in the commode and pulled the handle. Yep, he should leave AND he should take the senior pastor with him since he is able to attend retreats and go on vacation but is seldom in the pulpit.
Wow. Honestly, do you even think, or do you just blither on like this all the time? The youth program is exclusive from the mission trip. The people that went fronted their own money under the knowledge of what they were doing, not the youth program. Granted, the congregation put their hand in it as well, but they too have nothing to do with the youth. If we were to have a youth program on a "smaller scale" then . . . what does that even mean? Sorry, Timmy, no, you can't learn about God here, we like to keep things on a "smaller scale," it keeps things "financially convenient" for all us of. Are you serious? And as for the donations that you claim, well, sheesh, donations should be made in good faith, not under some guarantee. Do you go to church and write a check, only to hope it doesn't clear properly if it's used in a way different than you would prefer? That defeats the whole purpose of the initial donation. And, if you'll read below what I'm writing here, the senior pastor has barely been able to stand over the last few years and has still managed to preach his all in the pulpit. Are you completely ignorant to that fact that you're, well, to say it plainly, completely ignorant?
Think. It does an argument good.
Ta-ta.
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Mitch3
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:00 am |
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Sumocat wrote: I wouldn't want to discontinue the entire youth program but it can be done on a much smaller scale without the possibility of losing $15,000. Many of us donated toward that trip at a time when it wasn't particularly financially convenient and the leader might as well have dumped it in the commode and pulled the handle. Yep, he should leave AND he should take the senior pastor with him since he is able to attend retreats and go on vacation but is seldom in the pulpit.
Sounds like you have a personal problem with the youth minister and the head minister.
since you seem to know so much, I am sure you know that Rev. Bruce had SERIOUS medical issues over the past two years and that is why he has not been at the church as much.
My goodness.........such hatefulness
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Sumocat
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 11:41 pm |
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I wouldn't want to discontinue the entire youth program but it can be done on a much smaller scale without the possibility of losing $15,000. Many of us donated toward that trip at a time when it wasn't particularly financially convenient and the leader might as well have dumped it in the commode and pulled the handle. Yep, he should leave AND he should take the senior pastor with him since he is able to attend retreats and go on vacation but is seldom in the pulpit.
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Mitch3
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 10:23 pm |
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I am so sad that this entire thing happened. I personally am torn as to where the fault is.
If anyone knows, would travel insurance have covered the loss for the large amount of money all the kids and there parents put forth?
The First United Methodist Church is a WONDERFUL place, and they do allot for the kids! My daughter attended from the age of 11 or 12 to just this past summer as she turned 19 and could no longer attend the youth program.
Over the years, she has been able to go on many, many trips that she would not have been able to attend if she was not involved in the youth program.
A lot of HARD work goes into doing things for the youth who attend. A small group of parents put in allot of hours to see that the kids learn about the bible and have fun.
Don't let this one incident deter any parents from getting your kids involved in the youth program there, it is one of the best and your kids will gain so much from being involved.
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 04:19 pm |
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Sumocat wrote: Ciphered wrote: Sumocat wrote: I agree AvaL. This youth leader went around with his hand out begging for thousands of dollars with which to make this trip then threw it away without ever making it out of customs. I have traveled enough and read and listened to enough news to know you don't just walk into another country and expect to be received with open arms. Not only that, but not every country has the same travel requirements. If I gave a flip about that church, I would be calling for his resignation. AND if I was him, I'd be so ashamed I would tender my resignation without even being asked.It's a horrible disappointment for the children that could have been avoided.
Give me a break! What an ignorant rant this is. The man is a fine youth leader and to call for his resignation over this, whether it was his fault or not, is preposterous. Mistakes happen. Maybe not to you, but to the rest of us.
What is preposterous is that this fine youth leader addressed the congregation and made jokes about the situation. Ask those young people if they thought being detained and then separated for the return flight was funny.
Hey everyone, it's me again, the guy who was actually there, one of those "young people" detained and then sent home; and, let me tell you, Sumocat, you're pretty much as far from accurate as can be. Besides the whole initial shock of the situation presented to us, which lasted a rather short time (you get over things quick in detention, just like in school), what do you think we sat around doing--whining and sobbing? At first, yes, some whined and some sobbed--personally, I rested--but then after we knew that that wasn't going to help . . . we joked. Our entire group consists of humorous people. We joked with each other, we joked about that male/female (it was debatable) on the TV named La Rouxe with the Flock of Seagulls haircut, we joked about trying to sleep with one of those space blankets, we joked about the nonplussed look on the waitress's face when one of our number tried to order a sweet tea in New York, we joked, we joked, and we joked. Our youth leader's personality in addressing the congregation with "jokes about the whole situation" (first young people, now this; this is all sounding too unabashedly serious for me) was but an accurate reflection of our attitudes at the time; plus, that's just the way he is. If you're going to ask how the "young people" felt in the grand cliche of the oldsters, possibly with that self-aggrandizing and self-justifying look of utter sternness on your face like the Maunt Superior, I'll tell you exactly how they felt: funny, antic, good-humored, gay, jocular, blithe, merry, etc., etc. Do you comprende, o misguided Cat of Sumo? We felt fine; we felt good; we felt like we did what we could do, and now it was time to go home with our heads held high and an interesting story in our pockets.
Ta-ta.
Last edited on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 04:22 pm by TheGonzoJournalist
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Sumocat
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 12:39 pm |
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Ciphered wrote: Sumocat wrote: I agree AvaL. This youth leader went around with his hand out begging for thousands of dollars with which to make this trip then threw it away without ever making it out of customs. I have traveled enough and read and listened to enough news to know you don't just walk into another country and expect to be received with open arms. Not only that, but not every country has the same travel requirements. If I gave a flip about that church, I would be calling for his resignation. AND if I was him, I'd be so ashamed I would tender my resignation without even being asked.It's a horrible disappointment for the children that could have been avoided.
Give me a break! What an ignorant rant this is. The man is a fine youth leader and to call for his resignation over this, whether it was his fault or not, is preposterous. Mistakes happen. Maybe not to you, but to the rest of us.
What is preposterous is that this fine youth leader addressed the congregation and made jokes about the situation. Ask those young people if they thought being detained and then separated for the return flight was funny.
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Ciphered
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Posted: Mon Jun 29th, 2009 07:36 am |
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Sumocat wrote: I agree AvaL. This youth leader went around with his hand out begging for thousands of dollars with which to make this trip then threw it away without ever making it out of customs. I have traveled enough and read and listened to enough news to know you don't just walk into another country and expect to be received with open arms. Not only that, but not every country has the same travel requirements. If I gave a flip about that church, I would be calling for his resignation. AND if I was him, I'd be so ashamed I would tender my resignation without even being asked.It's a horrible disappointment for the children that could have been avoided.
Give me a break! What an ignorant rant this is. The man is a fine youth leader and to call for his resignation over this, whether it was his fault or not, is preposterous. Mistakes happen. Maybe not to you, but to the rest of us.
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AvaL
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 04:21 pm |
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BlueStarMom wrote: AvaL wrote I have traveled out of the country several times, and I ALWAYS look up the requirements, to the point of double checking through multiple sources most of the time.
You stated in another post that you "are too young to have children." Are you still in school? You've traveled out of the country several times and you state that you ALWAYS look up the requirements to the point of double checking, etc. Do your parents let you make all of the travel arrangements? PLEASE satisfy my curiosity....
I am too young, in my opinion, to have children, that does not mean I am not an adult.
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BlueStarMom
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Posted: Sun Jun 28th, 2009 04:09 pm |
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AvaL wrote I have traveled out of the country several times, and I ALWAYS look up the requirements, to the point of double checking through multiple sources most of the time.
You stated in another post that you "are too young to have children." Are you still in school? You've traveled out of the country several times and you state that you ALWAYS look up the requirements to the point of double checking, etc. Do your parents let you make all of the travel arrangements? PLEASE satisfy my curiosity....
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okeetaxpayer
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 10:05 pm |
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Well since you put it that way....
I can say yes I would have done it differently and made sure all my ducks were in the same row. 
As the saying goes"poor planning on your part does NOT mean its an emergency on my part"
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Thedesigndiva
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 09:34 pm |
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TheGonzoJournalist wrote: AvaL wrote: TheGonzoJournalist wrote: AvaL's right. Though at this point the only thing left is a bunch of blame-shifting. All in all, a lot of people messed up here. No individual can be blamed. The travel agent, youth pastor, UK's Customs, The Islington Times . . . even me. It was the UK's job to advertise their policy changes, the travel agent and youth pastor's job to make doubly sure of them and to find them, the Times' to tell the truth, the Border Agents' to show a little discretion, and my job to make sure that everything is as it should be. Just as anyone else could have done, I could have looked up missionary requirements. Just because it was announced a year ago has no bearing on its international advertisement. Nobody knew.
Such is life--c'est la vie. There's no point in worrying about it now. I'm home, we're all home, and it's over. Even still, any questions anyone has I would be happy to answer. I can tell you right now I'm a more valid source than that rubbish article.
We don't generally hear about travel requirement changes from other countries, but it was posted on their sites where travelers go to see the requirements. Nobody knew because nobody looked. As for the UK and discretion, that really isn't a fair thing to ask of them when rules are rules, and they can't make exceptions for everyone. Everyone who gets turned away can say "they should have/could have made an exception" but just because that is said doesn't mean it is (1) possible or (2) their fault.
Alright. Fine. Forget it. I tried to play nice. I have better things to do with my life. It isn't like there is some worrisome moral issue at stake here; all that's going on is deciding who's at fault. And so I bid you adieu for now. I'm going to go do something I actually care about, like listen to Rufus Wainwright albums and contemplate why a Burger King in Australia is called a Hungry Jack's. . . .
  History of "Burger King" in Australia
When Burger King moved to expand its operations into Australia, it found that its business name was already trademarked by a takeaway food shop in Adelaide.[1] As a result, Burger King provided the Australian franchisee, Jack Cowin, with a list of possible alternative names derived from pre-existing trademarks already registered by Burger King and its then corporate parent Pillsbury that could be used to name the Australian restaurants. Cowin selected the "Hungry Jack" brand name, one of Pillsbury's US pancake mixture products, and slightly changed the name to a possessive form by adding an apostrophe 's' forming the new name Hungry Jack's.[2] The first Australian franchise of Burger King Corporation was established in Innaloo Perth on the 18th of April 1971, under the auspices of Cowin's new company Hungry Jack's Pty, Limited.[3]
One less thing for you to contemplate this weekend....TAP TAP TAP...LOL
With Love
Diva 
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 09:10 pm |
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AvaL wrote: TheGonzoJournalist wrote: AvaL's right. Though at this point the only thing left is a bunch of blame-shifting. All in all, a lot of people messed up here. No individual can be blamed. The travel agent, youth pastor, UK's Customs, The Islington Times . . . even me. It was the UK's job to advertise their policy changes, the travel agent and youth pastor's job to make doubly sure of them and to find them, the Times' to tell the truth, the Border Agents' to show a little discretion, and my job to make sure that everything is as it should be. Just as anyone else could have done, I could have looked up missionary requirements. Just because it was announced a year ago has no bearing on its international advertisement. Nobody knew.
Such is life--c'est la vie. There's no point in worrying about it now. I'm home, we're all home, and it's over. Even still, any questions anyone has I would be happy to answer. I can tell you right now I'm a more valid source than that rubbish article.
We don't generally hear about travel requirement changes from other countries, but it was posted on their sites where travelers go to see the requirements. Nobody knew because nobody looked. As for the UK and discretion, that really isn't a fair thing to ask of them when rules are rules, and they can't make exceptions for everyone. Everyone who gets turned away can say "they should have/could have made an exception" but just because that is said doesn't mean it is (1) possible or (2) their fault.
Alright. Fine. Forget it. I tried to play nice. I have better things to do with my life. It isn't like there is some worrisome moral issue at stake here; all that's going on is deciding who's at fault. And so I bid you adieu for now. I'm going to go do something I actually care about, like listen to Rufus Wainwright albums and contemplate why a Burger King in Australia is called a Hungry Jack's. . . .
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Thedesigndiva
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 08:44 pm |
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TheGonzoJournalist wrote: AvaL's right. Though at this point the only thing left is a bunch of blame-shifting. All in all, a lot of people messed up here. No individual can be blamed. The travel agent, youth pastor, UK's Customs, The Islington Times . . . even me. It was the UK's job to advertise their policy changes, the travel agent and youth pastor's job to make doubly sure of them and to find them, the Times' to tell the truth, the Border Agents' to show a little discretion, and my job to make sure that everything is as it should be. Just as anyone else could have done, I could have looked up missionary requirements. Just because it was announced a year ago has no bearing on its international advertisement. Nobody knew.
Such is life--c'est la vie. There's no point in worrying about it now. I'm home, we're all home, and it's over. Even still, any questions anyone has I would be happy to answer. I can tell you right now I'm a more valid source than that rubbish article.
Gonzo...you are truly your Mothers son and a GREAT ONE at that.......... She brought you up the right way indeed...and let's not forget your Pops....My hats off to both your parents..but we all know it's the MOM that has the biggest part in it...
Give Mom a hug from me....
Diva
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 08:43 pm |
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TheGonzoJournalist wrote: AvaL's right. Though at this point the only thing left is a bunch of blame-shifting. All in all, a lot of people messed up here. No individual can be blamed. The travel agent, youth pastor, UK's Customs, The Islington Times . . . even me. It was the UK's job to advertise their policy changes, the travel agent and youth pastor's job to make doubly sure of them and to find them, the Times' to tell the truth, the Border Agents' to show a little discretion, and my job to make sure that everything is as it should be. Just as anyone else could have done, I could have looked up missionary requirements. Just because it was announced a year ago has no bearing on its international advertisement. Nobody knew.
Such is life--c'est la vie. There's no point in worrying about it now. I'm home, we're all home, and it's over. Even still, any questions anyone has I would be happy to answer. I can tell you right now I'm a more valid source than that rubbish article.
We don't generally hear about travel requirement changes from other countries, but it was posted on their sites where travelers go to see the requirements. Nobody knew because nobody looked. As for the UK and discretion, that really isn't a fair thing to ask of them when rules are rules, and they can't make exceptions for everyone. Everyone who gets turned away can say "they should have/could have made an exception" but just because that is said doesn't mean it is (1) possible or (2) their fault.
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CitizenGC
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 08:40 pm |
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TheGonzoJournalist wrote: There isn't any way you can simply say Well, I would have done it differently.
Well since you put it that way....
I can say yes I would have done it differently and made sure all my ducks were in the same row.
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 08:34 pm |
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AvaL's right. Though at this point the only thing left is a bunch of blame-shifting. All in all, a lot of people messed up here. No individual can be blamed. The travel agent, youth pastor, UK's Customs, The Islington Times . . . even me. It was the UK's job to advertise their policy changes, the travel agent and youth pastor's job to make doubly sure of them and to find them, the Times' to tell the truth, the Border Agents' to show a little discretion, and my job to make sure that everything is as it should be. Just as anyone else could have done, I could have looked up missionary requirements. Just because it was announced a year ago has no bearing on its international advertisement. Nobody knew.
Such is life--c'est la vie. There's no point in worrying about it now. I'm home, we're all home, and it's over. Even still, any questions anyone has I would be happy to answer. I can tell you right now I'm a more valid source than that rubbish article.
Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 08:34 pm by TheGonzoJournalist
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 08:20 pm |
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BlueStarMom wrote: AvaL wrote
You obviously know the people who were turned away, and you are angry because it happened to them. However, we are not exempt from the rules just because we are Americans, or a church group. We might not like the rules, but that doesn't mean they were applied unfairly or unjustly.
Correct on knowing the people turned away. Read TheGonzoJournalist. I love that kid. He's mine. He paid his own way. I didn't lose a dime. I'm not angry about what happened at all. My anger was with you. You get your information from TV. You did a quick google search and suddenly you're an expert on foreign travel and are blaming all the problems that happened on poor leadership. Read TGJ's post and it explains in detail what happened.
If you have actually traveled outside the U.S. and have first hand knowledge of foreign travel, then I'll defer to your experience. I have and didn't do a google search to read about Germany's rules and regulations for traveling in their country. I never even thought about it.
I did read Gonzo's account, and I only have one problem with it. While the rule may have gone in effect in January, it was announced a year ago. Both the travel agent and the youth minister were at fault, if the travel agent was told the correct reason for the trip. If you are leaving the country, especially for WORKING purposes, it is just common sense to check the requirements needed. The only reason I used google is was to see when the law went into effect, when I found out it was announced a year ago, and was clearly stated on UK websites, I found the whole article, and all the complaints, to be bitter and unfounded, especially when the original poster said the UK considers the group to be terrorists, and another poster said they were treated horribly, which even your own son said they were treated well. You don't need to be an expert to read when the law was announced, and to understand that this could have been avoided. The only reason I mentioned that tv show is that it is an easy way for YOU to see first hand that we do the same exact thing. I dont need to watch it to understand what goes on, I have information about it first-hand. I know people who work for Customs, and I have traveled out of the country several times, and I ALWAYS look up the requirements, to the point of double checking through multiple sources most of the time. Our own travel requirements are constantly changing, we must expect other countries to be doing the same thing.
Your son's account lines up with exactly what our own Customs agents do. They feel bad for the people that they send away, especially when it is for such a small mistake. They treat them hospitable and do their best to make them comfortable. So to attack UK laws, and UK immigration, when we ourselves do the same exact thing is uncalled for. To expect special treatment is also uncalled for, and to claim that they were considered "terrorists" was just a flat out lie.
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BlueStarMom
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:58 pm |
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AvaL wrote
You obviously know the people who were turned away, and you are angry because it happened to them. However, we are not exempt from the rules just because we are Americans, or a church group. We might not like the rules, but that doesn't mean they were applied unfairly or unjustly.
Correct on knowing the people turned away. Read TheGonzoJournalist. I love that kid. He's mine. He paid his own way. I didn't lose a dime. I'm not angry about what happened at all. My anger was with you. You get your information from TV. You did a quick google search and suddenly you're an expert on foreign travel and are blaming all the problems that happened on poor leadership. Read TGJ's post and it explains in detail what happened.
If you have actually traveled outside the U.S. and have first hand knowledge of foreign travel, then I'll defer to your experience. I have and didn't do a google search to read about Germany's rules and regulations for traveling in their country. I never even thought about it.
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:34 pm |
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Right on, Diva. And thank you, it's appreciated. And trust me, I'll be going back.
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Thedesigndiva
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:31 pm |
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Gonzo.........THANK YOU so much for clearing all of this up. I , for one always like to wait to hear THE REST OF THE STORY before passing judgement. As usual , there are always 2 sides to a story ...and then the TRUTH.........
PS.... I totally understood when you used the term " village idiot"..... seems some people here on the forum alwyas want to read more into something that what it actually is...
Maybe at another time your group can do a return trip..
Have a good one
Diva
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:25 pm |
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The term "village idiot" was used as an inference from what has been said about him, not to mention the simile used. It's called extrapolation--look it up. There isn't any way you can simply say Well, I would have done it differently. I wasn't the one making the plans. If you believe that so strongly, you must never make a mistake in your entire life, you must think things through so entirely. Brilliant! I should let you do my accounting!
Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:25 pm by TheGonzoJournalist
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Sumocat
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:18 pm |
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No. I didn't specifically know about the rule but I wasn't the leader making the arrangements either. Village Idiot was your description not mine.
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TheGonzoJournalist
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:13 pm |
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Alright folks, how about we stop all the hearsay and bashing of a public youth pastor like he's some sort of village idiot? How about you listen to someone who was actually there? How about we dispel the shaking of heads and clucking of tongues? What do you say? I was actually there, detained as a foreign national right along side everyone else. So let's begin at the top. . . .
Ten of us got across the border stating not that we were there for work (that is a completely different requirement) but that we were there for holiday and missionary work. We were, after all, a church. Two younger students and a couple that was with us got stopped at the border stating the very same claim as the rest of us, though with different border agents. They then proceeded to confiscate all of our passports and sit us down, telling us straight away in an extremely kind manner that we would need to wait a few minutes as they would need to run our passports through the system as there might be a problem. They explained to us that there might be a problem with us getting into the country. Let me make this perfectly clear: we were not yelled at, not harassed, not given dirty looks, nothing. The UK Border Agents did their jobs in an extremely pleasant manner, telling us the whole time that they were sorry about the inconvenience and using their pleases and thank yous at every given opportunity.
After that, yes, we were taken one by one into the back room. My carry-on was confiscated and searched (they told me this would happen straight away) and I was placed in a small white room. Was it intimidating? Was I treated like a criminal? No. Not at all. Just about every two minutes a different person would come in and ask me if I was alright, if I needed something to eat or drink, if I had any questions. Soon I was taken to be finger printed and have my picture taken. This happened to all of us. Do I think this was an absolutely shocking thing to do on their part? Again, no. They were very kind about everything, allowing me to wash my hands off right after, giving me all the forms and explaining what they meant, and then sending me off to my next stop; they even went so far as to cross off the "arrested" part of the form where it said "detained or arrested" (I still have them). Next I was taken to another room, and I was searched. But, come one people, I wouldn't expect any less from a standard procedure establishment. If you understand how the UK works--and, yes, I've been there before--you would know that they're very straight laced when it comes to procedure. Scotland Yard, MI5, Border Agents . . . I would expect no less. Even still, they attempted to make things as hospitable as possible for me, again offering food or drink, and making casual conversation about life back in the States. Is this disgusting?
All the family groups (fathers and daughters, mothers and daughters, man and wife, etc.) were kept together. When all the procedural stuff was done they placed us all in a room with blankets, pillows and a television. We weren't allowed to have our cell phones, but we were allowed to keep our money and other things of that nature; everything else was put back in our carry-ons personally, not by an Agent.
After awhile in the room we were given proper explanation as to our detention. Apparently a rule went into affect as of January first of this year that any missionary work to be done in the UK has to follow certain circumstances: Your group has to have a certificate of sponsorship by an English church, this church must be preapproved to sponsor (a process that takes four months at least), proper visas specifically for missionary work must be acquired, and your group must be put on a list of eligibility to enter the UK. Now, we didn't have any of that. Why? Because when the plans for the trip were made, these requirements did not exist. This will probably be the point where you go on to say something like Well, the youth pastor really should keep up on these things, you know. Let me put it to you this way: nobody knew. Not our youth pastor, not the fourteen people attending the trip, not the pastor we contacted that LIVES IN ENGLAND, not a single person I talked to on the plane ride home, not anyone that worked at the airport in the United States.
Do you know how unhappy the English Agents were about all this? They really were apologetic. This rule essentially just came about. Say we found out about it in March. That means our English contact still wouldn't have gotten approval on time. Not to mention virtually no one in the US knows about this rule (until now). Did you . . . ?
If we would have said we were there specifically on holiday it would have been a lie. Any amount of missionary work puts the group as a missionary group. If we were caught, we would have been arrested and I would probably be sitting in an English jail cell right now. As for going home . . . again (and again) they were completely amicable. Familys were kept together, we were seated fairly close together, and we were not treated like criminals. No one on the plane knew save for us and the staff.
Was the situation avoidable? Yes. Of course. But the likelihood of us avoiding it was absurdly small. There is no need to bash either the English government or the church. Honestly, it's shameful, and I beg you reconsider your opinions. Everyone just did their jobs. The only one who may not have would be the travel agent. Blame cannot rest entirely on her, but some monetary loss must be shifted. Though I can't quote, someone said you can't rely on travel agents. Well, it's their job to keep up on foreign policies. If you're going to blame the youth pastor, blame as much the travel agent, and blame as much the UK for not advertising their new policies. We weren't the only group to be turned away, and I'm sure we won't be the last.
And questions, rebuttals, anything at all . . . type away. I was there.
K.L.S.
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Sumocat
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:00 pm |
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My children are grown now and active in churches of their choice but I quickly withdrew them from that youth group when I walked in on one of that leader's gluttonous hamburger wars. As far as I'm concerned this failed trip is just one more example of this leader's inadequacy.
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 06:32 pm |
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Sumocat wrote: I agree AvaL. This youth leader went around with his hand out begging for thousands of dollars with which to make this trip then threw it away without ever making it out of customs. I have traveled enough and read and listened to enough news to know you don't just walk into another country and expect to be received with open arms. Not only that, but not every country has the same travel requirements. If I gave a flip about that church, I would be calling for his resignation. AND if I was him, I'd be so ashamed I would tender my resignation without even being asked.It's a horrible disappointment for the children that could have been avoided.
I do feel bad for the children, they were completely faultless and I know a lot of them, and they were all really looking forward to the trip. How many times do you get to go to England in your lifetime, and then to have it screwed up by something so preventable. However, I do know that youth leader, and this event does not surprise me one bit.
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 06:30 pm |
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BlueStarMom wrote: AvaL wrote: So, if the kids would have just lied, everything would have been okay? Lets not blame it on them, or punish them for telling the truth, shall we? From what I understand this rule was implemented last fall, and was announced over a year ago. If they had consulted with any embassy or travel agency beforehand, and told the truth about why they were going, they would have been made aware of the requirements. They DID use a travel agent. So THAT person needs to take the responsibility for what happened here. This group WAS punished for telling the truth. You have assumed that proper channels weren't followed and are condemning them without a shred of knowledge on your part. This group followed protocol as they knew it and relied on someone else who should have known what the rules for entry were.
I said earlier, a little extra research on their part would lead them to this website http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf27pbstempworker It took me less than 5 minutes to find that. Whenever traveling outside the country, it is your own responsibility to understand the requirements. The group was not punished, they broke the rules, and to tell the kids that they are "guilty of using the word 'work'" is punishing and blaming them.
Of course, it would have cost more money, maybe that was the problem? Why should they have been accommodated for not following directions? We turn away people every single day for this same issue, to ask another country to do it just because they are locals to us is just selfish. What if they did that to everyone who walked in without following the rules? Our hotel airports would never be full because those people who don't bother to apply for a visa ahead of time are not coming into our country through the airports. This youth group wasn't going to the UK to drain their system like the illegal workers do in our country.
As I said earlier, watch Homeland Security USA, people come into this country EVERY SINGLE DAY claiming they are tourists, when really they are coming here to work. And you know what happens to them? They are turned away. Why should we get special treatment, when we don't give them special treatment?
Their hotel airport would be full, and they would have a huge backlog, and no one would ever bother to apply for a visa ahead of time when they can get it expedited and have hotel accommodations while waiting. What if we did that? Could you imagine the blow up then? I have yet to see a blow up over illegals coming into our country. They just waltz right in and set up housekeeping.
Really, You have yet to see a blow up over illegals coming into out country? You must not have watched the news last year, or this year for that matter.
You obviously know the people who were turned away, and you are angry because it happened to them. However, we are not exempt from the rules just because we are Americans, or a church group. We might not like the rules, but that doesn't mean they were applied unfairly or unjustly.
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Sumocat
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 06:24 pm |
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I agree AvaL. This youth leader went around with his hand out begging for thousands of dollars with which to make this trip then threw it away without ever making it out of customs. I have traveled enough and read and listened to enough news to know you don't just walk into another country and expect to be received with open arms. Not only that, but not every country has the same travel requirements. If I gave a flip about that church, I would be calling for his resignation. AND if I was him, I'd be so ashamed I would tender my resignation without even being asked.It's a horrible disappointment for the children that could have been avoided.
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BlueStarMom
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 06:21 pm |
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AvaL wrote: So, if the kids would have just lied, everything would have been okay? Lets not blame it on them, or punish them for telling the truth, shall we? From what I understand this rule was implemented last fall, and was announced over a year ago. If they had consulted with any embassy or travel agency beforehand, and told the truth about why they were going, they would have been made aware of the requirements. They DID use a travel agent. So THAT person needs to take the responsibility for what happened here. This group WAS punished for telling the truth. You have assumed that proper channels weren't followed and are condemning them without a shred of knowledge on your part. This group followed protocol as they knew it and relied on someone else who should have known what the rules for entry were.
Of course, it would have cost more money, maybe that was the problem? Why should they have been accommodated for not following directions? We turn away people every single day for this same issue, to ask another country to do it just because they are locals to us is just selfish. What if they did that to everyone who walked in without following the rules? Our hotel airports would never be full because those people who don't bother to apply for a visa ahead of time are not coming into our country through the airports. This youth group wasn't going to the UK to drain their system like the illegal workers do in our country.
Their hotel airport would be full, and they would have a huge backlog, and no one would ever bother to apply for a visa ahead of time when they can get it expedited and have hotel accommodations while waiting. What if we did that? Could you imagine the blow up then? I have yet to see a blow up over illegals coming into our country. They just waltz right in and set up housekeeping.
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 06:14 pm |
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BlueStarMom wrote: AvaL wrote: Where does it say they are terrorists? All I see is that they didn't have the proper documentation and were treated just as anyone else would have been in the same situation.
AIRPORT BAR ON THE GOOD SAMARITANS
"The group fell victim to a points-based system for visa applications designed to deter illegal workers and potential terrorists."
The only thing the kids fell victim to was poor leadership. This was a completely preventable problem, if the planner had looked into what they would need to travel. It is designed to deter illegal workers and potential terrorists by having those who are NOT those 2 things bring the proper documentation. Without the right visa's they are just yet another group who could potentially be trying to commit immigration fraud, as one poster already suggested they should have done. That would have made them illegal workers. Nowhere does the article say the UK considers them terrorists.
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BlueStarMom
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 06:02 pm |
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AvaL wrote: Where does it say they are terrorists? All I see is that they didn't have the proper documentation and were treated just as anyone else would have been in the same situation.
AIRPORT BAR ON THE GOOD SAMARITANS
"The group fell victim to a points-based system for visa applications designed to deter illegal workers and potential terrorists."
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Sumocat
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 04:52 pm |
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Seems like the leader didn't do his homework. You can't always depend on someone else (travel agency) to do everything for you.
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 02:49 pm |
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The Real McCoy wrote: While better prep probably would have saved the day, all the British people quoted in the article, including the MP, the equivalent of our US house Rep., thought they had went overboard with a new policy and didn't allow things to play out. If they had held them in an airport hotel this would have worked itself out. The Okee kids were guilty of saying the wrong word...work... If they had said they were tourists they would have walked right in. Imagine the blowup if we had to cancel a rodeo or fishing tournament because all the competitors were turned away at the Miami airport because of an easily worked out technicality. Thousands of dollars of economic impact stopped by government interference.
So, if the kids would have just lied, everything would have been okay? Lets not blame it on them, or punish them for telling the truth, shall we? From what I understand this rule was implemented last fall, and was announced over a year ago. If they had consulted with any embassy or travel agency beforehand, and told the truth about why they were going, they would have been made aware of the requirements. Of course, it would have cost more money, maybe that was the problem? Why should they have been accommodated for not following directions? We turn away people every single day for this same issue, to ask another country to do it just because they are locals to us is just selfish. What if they did that to everyone who walked in without following the rules? Their hotel airport would be full, and they would have a huge backlog, and no one would ever bother to apply for a visa ahead of time when they can get it expedited and have hotel accommodations while waiting. What if we did that? Could you imagine the blow up then?
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The Real McCoy
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 02:41 pm |
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| While better prep probably would have saved the day, all the British people quoted in the article, including the MP, the equivalent of our US house Rep., thought they had went overboard with a new policy and didn't allow things to play out. If they had held them in an airport hotel this would have worked itself out. The Okee kids were guilty of saying the wrong word...work... If they had said they were tourists they would have walked right in. Imagine the blowup if we had to cancel a rodeo or fishing tournament because all the competitors were turned away at the Miami airport because of an easily worked out technicality. Thousands of dollars of economic impact stopped by government interference.
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 01:42 pm |
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Silent Listener wrote: It is the way the entire group was treated at the airport by British customs--the whole group was spoken to in an abusive loud tone. ALL were searched--fingerprinted then their names were put on Interpol as being denied entry into a country....then they were all kept in a room were detainees are kept until they placed them back on the planes to the USA. All that needed to be done was to allow the Pastor that was with them to go and get the work visa that was needed and to allow the Pastor from the sponsoring church to get the papers needed--to not allow them 24 hours to get these things that were needed is sad..Even US Customs in NYC told them that!!
Do you know how many people we turn away for not having the proper documentation and Visa's? Visa applications can take 10+ days to be approved. Everyone is trying to protect their country, and the UK have not been exempt from terrorist attacks and sleeper cells. Should we relax our visa requirements? Go to the ABC website and watch Homeland Security USA, you will see customs agents who have no choice but to turn away people, even if they feel bad for them. Rules are rules, and a little extra research before leaving would have brought them to a website which explained what they needed. I feel bad that the kids missed out, but it was not the UK immigration departments fault for that, they are doing their job.
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf27pbstempworker
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Silent Listener
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 01:16 pm |
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| It is the way the entire group was treated at the airport by British customs--the whole group was spoken to in an abusive loud tone. ALL were searched--fingerprinted then their names were put on Interpol as being denied entry into a country....then they were all kept in a room were detainees are kept until they placed them back on the planes to the USA. All that needed to be done was to allow the Pastor that was with them to go and get the work visa that was needed and to allow the Pastor from the sponsoring church to get the papers needed--to not allow them 24 hours to get these things that were needed is sad..Even US Customs in NYC told them that!!
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okeetaxpayer
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 01:16 pm |
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With 4 days spent on painting that left 5 days for sightseeing and theatre. Why didn't they go as tourists? I feel sorry for the kids that lost out on their London vacation.
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AvaL
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:00 am |
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Where does it say they are terrorists? All I see is that they didn't have the proper documentation and were treated just as anyone else would have been in the same situation.
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The Real McCoy
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Posted: Sat Jun 27th, 2009 04:54 am |
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| The Methodists from Okeechobee were turned back before any damage could be done --- http://www.thecnj.co.uk/islington/2009/062609/inews062609_01.html
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