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Ben Franklin Member

| Joined: | Tue Dec 20th, 2005 |
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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 03:36 pm |
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Kirk is right. we already know enough to place the blame we need to stay in the Now so we can make sure the gov doenst do anything even more stupid than this bail out. I doubt if anyone get prosecuted or if its done it will be a token few guys.
I ll make it real simple for you they are all to blame every last one, except Ron Paul who is the only one in congress who has told the truth about our currency system. He predicted this collapse several years ago. Jee I wonder why the media black listed him...cos he aint one of the good ole boys playing the game
Kirk dont be too hard on them. If someone trains their dog to crap on the carpet is it the dogs fault? What human doesnt like getting something for nothing?
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Vindicator Member

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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 03:28 pm |
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Fred wrote: No, it doesn't. As I've said, you've got one side of one little piece of the puzzle, and you think you've found the Holy Grail. Well it aint peas-porridge but see what you can get out of a puzzle and what part Republicans (and some conservative Democrats) played in the mess, other than being "terrorized" into being called a racist if you tried to rein in Fannie and Freddie. "How dare someone intervene and prevent low income people from getting the American dream of owning a house!"Someone posted the following links to the committee hearings but I only posted two of them. It for sure isnt just a little piece of the puzzle. Like somone posted, F&F were at ground zero.
http://www.house.gov/Welcome.shtml
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&q=House+Banking+Committee+Hearings&as_ldate=2004&as_hdate=2004&um=1&scoring=t&sa=X&oi=archive&ct=title
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Kirk Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 11th, 2005 |
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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 03:20 pm |
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I think the whole "it's your fault" and "no, it's your fault" debate is irrelevant. The media hype is focused on the changing requirements for securing loans as if these "new" standards are somehow atypical. These reports fail to mention that it was this last decade that was atypical - zero down car and home loans; 6 and 7 year car notes; the use of liability to asset ratios for loan determinations; and the socialization of perpetual debt. I regularly deal with people in their 40s and 50s that are carrying around +$20k in credit card balances, never drive a car over 4 years so they are in perpetual car payments, and they have more than 20 years left on their mortgages.
Last month, I had someone start crying about how cruel I was being when I pointed out that their mortgage payments would continue until they were 78 years old and that if they had to put new break-pads on their credit cards they should probably stop shopping for a whole new car. I know that these kinds of experiences have made me more than a little incredulous about the claims of a severe credit crunch. The only crunch that I have seen thus far is the reality setting in on people who have been living a lie. Small businesses fail over 50% of the time - no bank should be loaning money to someone with a 50% failure rate - this is irresponsible behavior with depositors' money. That bank should fail. Students fail to graduate from college over 50% of the time - no one with such a high likelihood of not graduating should be out accumulating debts. People over 50 have a high likelihood of losing their jobs before age 65 - heart attacks, strokes, cancer and age discrimination happen - and they should be in the final stages of paying off their mortgages. No bank should be loaning them money on their house because the odds of default are very high. Now that banks are saying to themselves, "maybe we ought to behave in a manner that makes sense" this is a credit crunch?
By now, it should be patently obvious that I am not now and probably never will run for political office. I have been yelled at, had things thrown at me, and called just about every name a retired marine-grunt could dream up after I have had the opportunity to break the news - life is expensive, and as you get older it gets more expensive, and unless you intend to die on your job and leave nothing to your dependents you need to grow up and pay your way through life. Have I had credit card balances - yes; student loans - yes; car loans - yes; a mortgage - yes. Have I had days when I wondered how all this was going to happen - yes. But like my parents, their parents, and ones before them - I took responsibility for my lot in life and made certain that my choices fulfilled those responsibilities as I am best able to do. The economy is headed downhill and the world has known this for several months. This means that we needed to significantly alter our choices about spending, saving, and taking on obligations. People chose to ignore this reality by attempting to debate the issue as if it were a political party perspective. Middle income households in the U.S. have had decreasing hourly wages during most of the last 35 years once inflation is accounted for. For the last 35 years, middle income households have been taking on more jobs and working more hours in an attempt to pretend that their wages were not falling. Every political candidate I can think of since I was old enough to listen to them has claimed to be working for the middle class. They have all failed to deliver, not because it is their fault, but because it is not in their power to deliver. The access to debt instruments has allowed the middle class to pretend to have (and therefore "be") more than they were. This process has now resulted in bad enough conditions that banks are starting to remind people to return to reality. This is not a 'credit crunch', this is facing reality - in capitalism, we allocate resources and products to those that can afford them. While you may be able to temporarily convince someone to lend you money to buy things you cannot really afford right now, this is only temporary and you will pay for these things. You can stop saving money for many years in an attempt to buy a bigger house and newer cars, but eventually the cost of living is going to exceed your ability to pay for it and a lack of savings will make it impossible to pretend any more.
If you think it is bad now, what are we going to be thinking when millions of retired baby boomers with zero savings discover that they cannot 'shop-til-they-drop' any more? What will the media be saying when millions of people are denied credit cards and pay-day loans because they have no income beyond social security and they are still making mortgage payments? Is there a word strong enough to express the "crunch" that will occur then? Will we need some sort of Calvin and Hobbes expression like "the horrendous space kablooey" (will that even fit in a headline?).
Sorry for the rant. Perhaps I should consider mood stabilizers. Have a nice day.
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Ben Franklin Member

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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 03:19 pm |
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| What americans can expect is hyper inflation
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2centsworth Member
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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 02:53 pm |
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We will see tonight if McCain has the stones to use everything in his quiver. His handlers have had him dancing around the real issues for too long. This economic mess will bring him down if he doesn't make the dems answer for their protection of the criminals that were running Fannie and Freddie.
My God, Obama is taking credit for sounding the alarm in 2007! Talk about the horse being out of the barn.
It's gonna have to get ugly if we are to have a chance. Take of the gloves John!
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Playing the Game Member

| Joined: | Wed Jan 30th, 2008 |
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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 12:01 pm |
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| I think Fannygate is going to be exposed in the next few weeks to add some deserved spice to the election
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Fred Member

| Joined: | Mon Oct 10th, 2005 |
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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 03:00 am |
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No, it doesn't. As I've said, you've got one side of one little piece of the puzzle, and you think you've found the Holy Grail.
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Hartlyboy Member

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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 02:28 am |
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| Comparing the CRA loans that 'the Dems pushed for ' to the sub-prime loans that Fannie accepted and encouraged is comparing peanuts to bushels of apples. A CRA loan had income requirements , credit documentation , etc. They were not as 'good' as the loans banks normally wanted in many cases but they were nothing like the anything goes loans of the recent past. The CRA program was an example of social engineering that could be considered wrong-headed by some but it was not a criminal enterprise as I see the Fannie and Freddie operations that Barney and the boys encouraged and supported.
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Playing the Game Member

| Joined: | Wed Jan 30th, 2008 |
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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 01:50 am |
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THINK????????????????????????????
This makes Nxon look like a boy scout.
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Fred Member

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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 01:15 am |
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I tend to agree, Kirk...and I think the Republicans think they have a smoking gun with Fannie and Freddie, and that is why they want to blame the whole thing on them. More reasonable people, I think, see it as part of it, especially when they see that the failure rate of the loans Dems pushed for are NOT failing at a greater rate than other rates.
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Kirk Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 11th, 2005 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 10:05 pm |
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I would find it difficult to believe that anyone walking onto a car dealership with 20% to put down and a choice of automobile that is consistent with their income/debt load (see numbers below) would find it difficult to buy that car. Car dealers are desperate for qualified customers. Car companies want to sell cars, that is their business. At the height of the Great Depression, Ford sold cars on credit - 20% down and 3 years of a reasonable payment.
I would find it equally difficult to believe that Federal Student Loans, subsidized by the Federal Government would not occur. These loans are determined by the tuition and basic living expenses that a student attending that university should need. Will students need to ante up with a significant amount of the tuition money themselves? Of course, they have always had to come up with their own money, but the advertising where the young man dreams of buying a "hot ride" and a high speed notebook computer while in college are going away. These were high interest rate loans that made little financial sense for students or anyone else for that matter. Since only about 50% of students going to college will ever graduate, these were risky clients anyways. Which is why the Federal Guarantees were put in place - no bank would ever loan to such a risky individual. (the 50% failure rate of small businesses is similarly risky and small businesses used to never be able to get loans)
I would find it difficult to believe that someone walking into their own bank where they have 15-20% of a home price to put as a down payment, and want to finance a payment that makes sense for their income levels (less than 26% of a stable net income, total debt payments less than 36% of a stable net income), and they will not get a home loan. Will refinancing become difficult? Of course. It always does during an economic downturn because the bank cannot figure out how much equity is really sitting in the house because the market is unstable.
For a few brief years, rising home prices made it possible to violate those long-held financial truisms - a maximum 26% mortgage to net income ratio and a maximum 36% total debt payments to net income ratio. Since home prices are not rising in a manner that will offset any attempt to default on the part of the borrower - banks are returning to those rules. Welcome to the Middle of the 20th Century; a time where people saved up to buy a home, a car, to go to college, or to start a business. Where debt was not taken or given lightly. But all the news stories equating this shift in lending practices to some sort of Biblical Catastrophe is media sensationalism. Not to be callous or flip, but this is nothing new.
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Cobra Member

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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 08:33 pm |
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I don't think that it started with the collapse of Lehman Brothers but more like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Lehman was an effect that began with the sub-prime mortgage mess and the congress who forced banks to go along with granting loans to people who couldn't pay them just to pander to minorities. That was the Democrat's way of buying votes with taxpayer money.
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tspong Member
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 08:00 pm |
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What do you think?
From the Delaware State News: Loans harder to come by
Delawareans may find more rigorous approval demands
By Ali Cheeseman
Delaware State News
DOVER — The past couple of weeks have had people waiting and watching to see where the future of the financial system would end up.
It started with the collapse of Lehman Brothers, a 158-year-old investment bank, which announced Sept. 15 its intention to file for bankruptcy. That was just the start of more banks and investment companies either crashing or being bought out by other firms.
Then, the federal government decided to swoop in and save the financial system with an unprecedented $700 billion bailout plan
The initial bill was turned down by the U.S. House of Representatives, but a reworked plan passed Congress on Friday.
The core of the plan is to let financial institutions sell their troubled assets, mostly mortgage-related, to the government.
Even though the financial system might have a steadier stance now, those in search of credit of any kind may still find that banks are tightening up.
"Marginal borrowers are less likely to get a mortgage at this time," said Douglas Moore, president of Kent County Association of Realtors.
Mortgages, car loans, student loans and other lines of credit are still available, but most are saying that criteria to get approved are more rigorous than they have been in past years.
"I’ve been a counselor for 20 years, and this has been a bad year," said Mary Rammel, branch manager for Consumer Credit Counseling Services in Wilmington, adding that her company has seen record bankruptcies and home foreclosures this year.
"If you are strapped already, don’t take on more debt," she advised. "The less debt you have, the easier it is to take on surprise expenses, like the extra price for gasoline."
Mr. Moore is advising his clients in much the same way when they are looking at new homes — don’t borrow beyond your means. He has seen an increase in buyer activity, with more people looking to purchase a home. People are being more conscientious about what fits their needs, he said, both physically for the family and financially for their budgets.
And banks are being more vigilant, too, Mr. Moore said.
"Obviously, with what’s happened, the pendulum has swung from very loose to very tight," he said. "It’s got to come back to somewhere in the middle."
Even Jeff Townsend, owner of Townsend Brothers Chevrolet car dealership in Dover, is seeing banks upping their requirements.
"They’re being a little more picky with what they’re taking," he said. "People need to be really conscientious on paying their bills on time to make their credit as good as possible."
So far, colleges and universities are seeing stability with student loans, especially with many loans federally funded. But the private lending sector is a different story.
"Private lending has been in a little bit of turmoil lately with companies coming and going," said Jim Holloway, assistant director of financial aid at the University of Delaware.
So far, the university hasn’t heard of many students experiencing issues with student loans, he said, but it’s early in the semester and things may change, adding that he doesn’t think the brunt of the crisis has trickled down to the student loans.
"Don’t be scared; be cautious and read everything," said J. Lynn Iocono, director of student financial services at Delaware State University, about students researching the loans the accept. "They can’t stop going after education ... but they need to look beyond today of just getting that check."
Staff writer Ali Cheeseman can be reached at 741-8250 or acheeseman@newszap.com.
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