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Lavitakus Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 11:30 pm |
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On a side note. When is the last time anybody found a cure for anything?
No money in it, huh? Let's just treat it and let them keep demanding the supply, huh?
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Mendavor Member

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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 11:27 pm |
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Since its inception capitalism has been fatally flawed. Its inherent laws - to maximize profit on the backs of the working class - give rise to the class struggle.
History is a continuous story of people rising up against those who exploit and oppress them, to demand what's theirs. Our own country's historic beginning was revolutionary. The ideals of justice and equality have inspired peoples for centuries.
Up until the time of Karl Marx, those that advocated socialism were "utopians", that is, motivated by ideals only. It was Marx and his longtime friend and collaborator, Frederick Engels, who uncovered the inner laws of capitalism, where profit comes from and how societies develop. They transformed wishful thinking for socialism into socialism with a scientific, materialist basis.
Communists say that capitalism won't be around forever. Just like previous societies weren't around forever either. Slavery gave rise to feudalism and feudalism to capitalism. So, too, capitalism gives rise to socialism.
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Lavitakus Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 11:20 pm |
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Eventually, the generation that's at the root cause of all of these "talking points" will be obsolete. That's the reality of it. So will the monopoly held by big pharma because the supply and demand that they manipulate or orchestrate will be gone.
Then what do you think is going to happen? Just take a wild guess. In case nobody is paying attention, people are consuming less process food and living healthier. Our current generation who require the most "benefit" have for the most part, lived their lives as the bi product of process food and medication being stuffed down them(for a profit) to keep them living that lifestyle and feeding the markets bottom line in regard to it's many aspects.
Remember the days when grandma always wanted to feed the kids junk all the time because it was OK. If you get fat or get diabetes, you can go see you're doctor and he'll give you a pill that makes it OK. You can keep eating crap as long as you take this little pill every day for the rest of you're life for a fee. Well, that's their mindset. They just don't care.
Those days are over. People, these days, again for the most part, are giving their kids a healthy start on life so that they don't need to be fed big pharma every day in 10 or 15 different forms of medication and testing and all the crap that gets billed with it.
Of course, there will always be hereditary issues as well as common illnesses but those are genuine and do not require the lobbyist agendas that people are being fed as it is now.
Last edited on Sun Oct 25th, 2009 11:26 pm by Lavitakus
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CaptainObvious Member

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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 10:29 pm |
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tell all wrote: About 11 years ago there was a accident that if it were not for the insurance companies ( private and Government together ) the families would have lost all
Not only did medical, automobile, home owners work insurance and life insurance kick in to pay for this catastrophe of 11 injuries and one death in a automobile accident.
Every one involve had some kind of insurance except for the illegal that where working for the company ( 5 of them ) minor injuries never the less hurt and 100s of thousand were paid out. These families would still be paying money out their butts if it were all up to the Government
What's your point? If you have insurance, they're supposed to pay out on claims. This not something they did out of the goodness of their own heart.
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tell all Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 03:34 pm |
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kentvoice wrote: There is an amazing amount of government in our health care system already, including health insurance mandates, Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Indian Health Service, myriad regulations of all drugs, medical equipment, and services, personnel licensing requirements, etc., etc. Complying with these regulations is terrifically expensive and makes health care unaffordable; it also makes costs rise much faster than the general rate of inflation. Government wage controls during WWII led employers to add health benefits to attract employees, which coupled insurance to employment, which causes all sorts of problems and makes insurance unaffordable for the self-employed and those with part time jobs. (And it forces people to stay in jobs they hate so they don't lose benefits.)
Coercion is Not Healthcare!
Insurance companies, when they operate free from the government intervention that changes them from what they should be--insurers against catastrophic loss--into byzantine third-party payment systems (what we have in health insurance today), are the ultimate safety net.
Adding more government complexity to the mix will not improve what would otherwise be a simple and affordable system if the government would just get out of the way. If car insurance were run the same way as health insurance, we'd be crying for national car insurance reform right now, too. You'd need a full time job to get car insurance, and the govt would require all insurance plans to cover gasoline, oil changes, and repairs. All mechanics would have to be certified by a state board. You'd have no idea how much an oil change cost, but it wouldn't matter because the government would be paying for it. Etc.
About 11 years ago there was a accident that if it were not for the insurance companies ( private and Government together ) the families would have lost all
Not only did medical, automobile, home owners work insurance and life insurance kick in to pay for this catastrophe of 11 injuries and one death in a automobile accident.
Every one involve had some kind of insurance except for the illegal that where working for the company ( 5 of them ) minor injuries never the less hurt and 100s of thousand were paid out. These families would still be paying money out their butts if it were all up to the Government
Last edited on Sun Oct 25th, 2009 03:35 pm by tell all
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Hartlyboy Member

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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 03:18 pm |
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| Good points, Kentvoice.
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kentvoice Member

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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 03:10 pm |
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There is an amazing amount of government in our health care system already, including health insurance mandates, Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Indian Health Service, myriad regulations of all drugs, medical equipment, and services, personnel licensing requirements, etc., etc. Complying with these regulations is terrifically expensive and makes health care unaffordable; it also makes costs rise much faster than the general rate of inflation. Government wage controls during WWII led employers to add health benefits to attract employees, which coupled insurance to employment, which causes all sorts of problems and makes insurance unaffordable for the self-employed and those with part time jobs. (And it forces people to stay in jobs they hate so they don't lose benefits.)
Coercion is Not Healthcare!
Insurance companies, when they operate free from the government intervention that changes them from what they should be--insurers against catastrophic loss--into byzantine third-party payment systems (what we have in health insurance today), are the ultimate safety net.
Adding more government complexity to the mix will not improve what would otherwise be a simple and affordable system if the government would just get out of the way. If car insurance were run the same way as health insurance, we'd be crying for national car insurance reform right now, too. You'd need a full time job to get car insurance, and the govt would require all insurance plans to cover gasoline, oil changes, and repairs. All mechanics would have to be certified by a state board. You'd have no idea how much an oil change cost, but it wouldn't matter because the government would be paying for it. Etc.
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kentvoice Member

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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 03:07 pm |
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I'm glad Irv has been able to benefit from the Medicare tax for his medical needs. But, in his own words, the system was set up at a different time and our lifespans were shorter, and medical treatments not as expensive. Now we live longer and treatments, largely due to government interference, are incredibly more expensive. It's time to change the system:
Freedom to opt out for younger age groups, cut taxes, Americans take control of their own healthcare accts. Cut out the middleman= The Feds!
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kentvoice Member

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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 03:01 pm |
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Dear Dr. Fields:
Have you ever practiced without government interference in your practice? How can you support more government mandates and believe it will save costs? It's impossible! Coercion is not healthcare!
There is an amazing amount of government in our health care system already, including health insurance mandates, Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Indian Health Service, myriad regulations of all drugs, medical equipment, and services, personnel licensing requirements, etc., etc. Complying with these regulations is terrifically expensive and makes health care unaffordable; it also makes costs rise much faster than the general rate of inflation. Government wage controls during WWII led employers to add health benefits to attract employees, which coupled insurance to employment, which causes all sorts of problems and makes insurance unaffordable for the self-employed and those with part time jobs. (And it forces people to stay in jobs they hate so they don't lose benefits.)
Insurance companies, when they operate free from the government intervention that changes them from what they should be--insurers against catastrophic loss--into byzantine third-party payment systems (what we have in health insurance today), are the ultimate safety net.
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kentvoice Member

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Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 02:54 pm |
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Adding more government complexity to the mix will not improve what would otherwise be a simple and affordable system if the government would just get out of the way. If car insurance were run the same way as health insurance, we'd be crying for national car insurance reform right now, too. You'd need a full time job to get car insurance, and the govt would require all insurance plans to cover gasoline, oil changes, and repairs. All mechanics would have to be certified by a state board. You'd have no idea how much an oil change cost, but it wouldn't matter because the government would be paying for it. Etc.
Dr. Fields, who has practiced medicine for less than 20 years has always worked in a government system, so unfortunately is short on perspective, and trusts the government too much.
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 22nd, 2009 02:17 pm |
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Democrats lost a big test vote on health care legislation on Wednesday as the Senate blocked action on a bill to increase Medicare payments to doctors at a cost of $247 billion over 10 years... By addressing doctors' fees in a separate bill, Senate Democrats could hold down the cost of the broader health legislation, keeping it within the limits set by President Obama. House Democrats are considering a similar tactic. Republicans said it was a transparent ploy to hide the cost of a health care overhaul."
- The New York Times
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 11:55 pm |
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Fun with Honest Budgeting
Posted by Dan Perrin (Profile)
Wednesday, October 21st at 6:32PM EDT
No Comments
Dana Milbank of the Washington Post is funny, in his rendition of Majority Leader Reid and his quest to put $250 billion in ObamaCare off-budget, adding it to the deficit. It really is worth the read, here are his first paragraphs:
“I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits, either now or in the future — period,” President Obama told Congress in a health-care address last month.
Well, that depends on what the meaning of “plan” is….So Democrats hatched a novel scheme: They would pass the legislation separately, so the $250 billion cost wouldn’t be part of the main reform “plan,” thereby allowing the president to claim that that bill wouldn’t increase the deficit.
Or this: “Finally we’re coming to the first vote on health-care reform, and what do the Democrats propose to do?” Sen. Lamar Alexander (Tenn.) asked at the microphones. “They propose to raise the national debt by . . . a quarter of a trillion dollars, plus $50 billion interest.”
There is plenty of good stuff in the piece, especially the quote by Senator Reid who essentially said — I did it because the White House told me to do it (he lost the cloture vote on the motion to proceed 47 to 53, Reid needs 60 votes to shut down a filibuster.)
OK, I cannot resist to quote Milbank’s Senator Stabenow stuff:
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Bixby Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 09:56 pm |
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Habanero wrote: Hoyer Says Constitution’s ‘General Welfare’ Clause Empowers Congress to Order Americans to Buy Health Insurance Wednesday, October 21, 2009 By Matt Cover
(CNSNews.com) – House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) said that the individual health insurance mandates included in every health reform bill, which require Americans to have insurance, were “like paying taxes.” He added that Congress has “broad authority” to force Americans to purchase other things as well, so long as it was trying to promote “the general welfare.”
The Congressional Budget Office, however, has stated in the past that a mandate forcing Americans to buy health insurance would be an “unprecedented form of federal action,” and that the “government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States.”
Hoyer, speaking to reporters at his weekly press briefing on Tuesday, was asked by CNSNews.com where in the Constitution was Congress granted the power to mandate that a person must by a health insurance policy. Hoyer said that, in providing for the general welfare, Congress had “broad authority.” Well that's a long, long. long stretch of the Constitution's meaning. If some of you old-timey regulars here remember we covered this at length and delved back into the past to see what the Founding Fathers meant. This clause, chief among others, has been misused time and again to do an end run around that the meaning states and mandating health insurance sure aint one of them. It's pretty fAr back and I don't know if those posts can be retrieved. Lacking that, read Judge Joseph Story's "Commentary on the Constitution." It may be on line. You may also find something in Farand's "Debates on the Federal Constitutional Convention." A bit more concise than Madison's Notes.
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Habanero Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 09:31 pm |
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Well, Diva, while I agree with you that Hoyer does have rocks in his head, it's not his fault the name his parents saddled him with.
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Helen here Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 07:11 pm |
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dd5_1256056612
Language for adults only , Please don't view this with children in the area
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 06:59 pm |
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Hab, anybody named STENY has rocks in his head. http://www.termlimits.org
Last edited on Wed Oct 21st, 2009 07:00 pm by dover-diva
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Habanero Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 05:13 pm |
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Hoyer Says Constitution’s ‘General Welfare’ Clause Empowers Congress to Order Americans to Buy Health Insurance Wednesday, October 21, 2009 By Matt Cover
(CNSNews.com) – House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) said that the individual health insurance mandates included in every health reform bill, which require Americans to have insurance, were “like paying taxes.” He added that Congress has “broad authority” to force Americans to purchase other things as well, so long as it was trying to promote “the general welfare.”
The Congressional Budget Office, however, has stated in the past that a mandate forcing Americans to buy health insurance would be an “unprecedented form of federal action,” and that the “government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States.”
Hoyer, speaking to reporters at his weekly press briefing on Tuesday, was asked by CNSNews.com where in the Constitution was Congress granted the power to mandate that a person must by a health insurance policy. Hoyer said that, in providing for the general welfare, Congress had “broad authority.”
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Hartlyboy Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 03:25 am |
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I wonder how happy the masses will be with all this health care 'reform' when they figure out the 'benefits' start in 2013 and the taxes start 1/1/10. That's when the bill reported out of the Finance Committee proposes to start the tax on employer provided benefits. [Section 6002, page 1435].
If people ever pull their heads out and stop listening to the shills like Dr. Fields and understand what they are having shoved down their throat or up [never mind], they would go down to DC with pitchforks and tar .
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Playing the Game Member

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Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 01:49 am |
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| Fields must be a Vet. Not to offend veterenarians.
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Habanero Member

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Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 11:17 pm |
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"We’re closer now that we’ve ever been to real health-care reform," Dr. Fields said Thursday. "There is general agreement among conservatives and liberals alike that health-care costs need to be controlled, and a public-plan option is our best bet for cost-containment."
Nice try Doc, but no cigar.
While it is true that both conservatives and liberals agree something must be done, you are trying to convince people of a lie in regard to the public option. There is no agreement on that issue mostly because of the obfuscation being pushed by people like you that get the media attention.
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 06:44 pm |
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The DSN can put the person on the front page ,yet again, but, couldn't make an effort to take a FREE seat to the 9-12 rallies. MEDIA BIAS !!!!!!!   Last edited on Fri Oct 16th, 2009 06:44 pm by dover-diva
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tspong Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 05:18 pm |
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What do you think?
From the Delaware State News:
Group rallies for health care public option
Felton physician leads demonstrators at Allen Frear Building
By Al Kemp
Delaware State News
DOVER — About a dozen demonstrators marched in the rain in front of the Allen Frear Federal Building on Thursday, urging Sen. Thomas R. Carper, D-Del., to fight for a public-plan option in health-care reform legislation.
The contingent, led by Dr. Jo Ann Fields, gathered near the entrance to the building on South New Street, donning hospital gowns to symbolize sick patients in a failing health system.
Three uniformed guards with the General Services Administration soon came outside and directed the demonstrators to leave the property, so they regrouped on the sidewalk where they waved signs and chanted "We’re here because we care!"
One of the demonstrators, Ivey Mask of Dover, carried a sign that read: "Americans are as worthy of health care as the rest of the world."
The demonstration in Dover came as White House aides and congressional committee members wrangled in Washington over how to merge a Senate Finance Bill with another measure that includes a public-plan option.
Dr. Fields, a primary-care physician with a practice in Felton, is an outspoken advocate of the government’s including a public insurance plan in any health-reform legislation, to provide meaningful competition to large private insurers such as Coventry, United Health Care, Blue Cross and Aetna.
Opinion polls have shown that support for a public-plan option runs high, but influential interest groups such as insurers and medical providers oppose the idea.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Thursday in Washington that the case is growing stronger for allowing the government to sell health insurance in competition with private companies, contending recent attacks from the industry should dispel any doubts.
"We’re closer now that we’ve ever been to real health-care reform," Dr. Fields said Thursday. "There is general agreement among conservatives and liberals alike that health-care costs need to be controlled, and a public-plan option is our best bet for cost-containment."
She urged Sen. Carper to add his name to 30 others, including Sen. Edward E. "Ted" Kaufman, D-Del., in a letter of support for the idea being sent to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada.
Sen. Carper has proposed that decisions on public-run insurance be made on a state-by-state basis, as opposed to by federal decree, his spokeswoman Bette Phelan said Thursday.
Rep. Pelosi, meanwhile, said that the idea of health-insurance reform without a public option is becoming less and less likely.
"Anyone who had any doubts about the need for such an option need only look at the behavior of the health insurance industry this week,’’ Rep. Pelosi said.
She was referring to an industry-funded study earlier that said insurance premiums would rise under health overhaul legislation advanced by the Senate Finance Committee earlier this week. Rep. Pelosi also referenced an insurance industry ad campaign targeted at seniors.
This story includes information from The Associated Press.
Staff writer Al Kemp may be reached at 741-8296 or akemp@newszap.com.
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Hartlyboy Member

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Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 03:17 pm |
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| Lots of emotional, unsubstantiated claims here, but the point remains that the proposals now being rammed through Congress won't improve a blessed thing for the vast majority of people who get decent health care now but will instead cost us trillions and not address the real causes of health care costs. The lawyers will still hover and the doctors will still over-test and the beat goes on. Medicare will cut back to help finance the next great giveaway and the taxes and premiums will have to go up pay for it . We've created a lot of rush-rush emotion and darn little objective examination of what it takes to do something useful versus politically appealing.
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tspong Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 03:10 pm |
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Copied below is a letter to the editor submitted to the Delaware State News. You can post your opinions by clicking on "Reply."
A Nurse For Health Reform
I have been a nurse since 1998. Since that time I have worked as an office nurse in a family practice, a long term care nurse in a nursing home, a medical-surgical nurse, a mother/baby nurse, and a school nurse. I have met patients who stretch out their medications, leading to non-therapeutic results. Patients are doing this because they are seeing their healthcare costs rise as their pay dwindles. Many have lost their health insurance along with their jobs. Patients are sicker because they don’t have access to healthcare and they wait longer to seek medical care, often until it is too late. Large medical bills have contributed to half of bankruptcies and foreclosures. Tens of millions of Americans have no health insurance, living just one illness away from financial disaster. Many other Americans who do have insurance live with the constant worry that they might lose it if they move, change jobs, or lose their jobs — or that their insurance company might cancel their plan when they get sick. Insurance companies are in the business to make money, and right now our current healthcare system is working better for them than the American people. Without healthcare reform, the numbers of those of us who are insured will continue to decrease as costs rise. For the tens of millions of Americans without insurance, President Obama’s plan will offer quality, affordable choices. The President’s plan calls for the creation of a new insurance exchange, where individuals and small businesses can compare plans and buy the one that works best for them. President Obama believes that one of the options available in the insurance exchange should be a public insurance option. He believes a public option is a way to create more competition and ensure every American has an affordable choice. We need to support healthcare reform for the future of our country. Every American deserves access to medical care and in order for that to happen, we need reform now.
Audrey Mayan, RN
Dover
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ltcdolphin Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 10:59 pm |
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CaptainObvious wrote: ltcdolphin wrote: okay lets go artic, another wam moment.
If you want to continue this debate post it in the global warming thread....
that's a real good wam comment. game set match
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Playing the Game Member

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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 10:48 pm |
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It's a Chicago Thug, Saul Alinsky thing that the current administration espouses. Don't answer the question and divert the topic.
Hartlyboy wrote:
I'm old and easily confused. How is all this talk about global warming related to the topic of health care reform? Both a scam?
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CaptainObvious Member

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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 10:12 pm |
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ltcdolphin wrote: okay lets go artic, another wam moment.
If you want to continue this debate post it in the global warming thread....
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ltcdolphin Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 08:50 pm |
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okay lets go artic, another wam moment.
Arctic ice twice as thick as expected
By Christopher Booker
__________________
google_protectAndRun("ads_core.google_render_ad", google_handleError, google_render_ad);
1
9 May 09 - As the clock ticks down towards December's historic UN Copenhagen conference on climate change, the frenzied efforts of the warmists to panic us over all that vanishing Arctic and Antarctic ice are degenerating into farce.
Up in the Arctic, after yet another delay for bad weather, the hapless Catlin trio, sponsored by an insurance firm which hopes to make money out of alarm over global warming, continue their painful progress towards the distant North Pole, measuring the ice with an old tape measure and assuring Prince Charles by satellite telephone that it is "thinner than expected".
When the trio heard a passing aircraft, which they hoped was bringing much-needed supplies, they little realised it was a DC-3 carrying an international team of scientists, using the latest electro-magnetic induction equipment to discover rather more efficiently that the ice was in fact "twice as thick" as they had expected.
A last symbolic drama was the fate of another three-man expedition aiming to publicise the effects of climate change. Followed by schools across Britain, they were aiming to reach Greenland in a "carbon-free" boat powered only by wind and the sun. Last week, after running into appalling weather, they were rescued by – it had to be – a US oil tanker. I wonder whether the schoolchildren were told.
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CaptainObvious Member

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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 08:24 pm |
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I was talking about the ARCTIC, not Antarctica.
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ltcdolphin Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 07:48 pm |
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CaptainObvious wrote: Playing the Game wrote: So it's like I said, facts are anything you want them to be. Any fool can find another fool or 2 to quote as a source. Like the man made global warming folks or just about any politician you can name.
CaptainObvious wrote:
FACTS are not anything you want them to be. Facts are information that is verifiable thru one or more sources. What somebody says is a fact, may not be a fact after all - if the basis of "said" fact is shown to be false, then it is not a fact.
No, you have to go back to being "VERIFIABLE". The reduction in polar ice is verifiable thru observation. Rising AVERAGE global temps are verifiable thru observation. Both are via empirical evidence. Man-made global warming cannot be VERIFIED scientifically, it is a conclusion that can only be reached by a preponderance of data, not by testing or experiment.
Scientists have made a causal connection from those things to man-made global warming. Problem is that many (not all) have reach this conclusion/consensus but it is not much more than theory. Why? To establish scientific fact, one has to be able to test the hypothesis/theory. Man-man global warming cannot be tested as there is no experimental "control". That is, you can't point to another "Earth" with the same conditions but w/out "man made factors" and prove that w/out us driving cars, using coal, etc. the earth wouldn't be warming anyway.
Politicians area a different story.
the fact is polar ice is growing not declining, there you go telling another untruth. another fun filled wam moment.
Report: Antarctic Ice Growing, Not Shrinking
Saturday, April 18, 2009
NASA
A composite map of Antarctica showing areas of greatest warming in red. The Wilkins Ice Shelf lies off the peninsula in the top left corner.
Ice is expanding in much of Antarctica, contrary to the widespread public belief that global warming is melting the continental ice cap.
The results of ice-core drilling and sea ice monitoring indicate there is no large-scale melting of ice over most of Antarctica, although experts are concerned at ice losses on the continent's western coast.
Antarctica has 90 percent of the Earth's ice and 80 percent of its fresh water, The Australian reports. Extensive melting of Antarctic ice sheets would be required to raise sea levels substantially, and ice is melting in parts of west Antarctica. The destabilization of the Wilkins ice shelf generated international headlines this month.
• Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Natural Science Center.
However, the picture is very different in east Antarctica, which includes the territory claimed by Australia.
East Antarctica is four times the size of west Antarctica and parts of it are cooling. The Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research report prepared for last week's meeting of Antarctic Treaty nations in Washington noted the South Pole had shown "significant cooling in recent decades."
Last edited on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 07:51 pm by ltcdolphin
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Bixby Member

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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 06:23 pm |
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Snowe's Yes Vote and ObamaCare's Future
While Senator Snowe's yes vote in the Senate Finance Committee was a shock to liberals and conservatives, it is neither a defeat for conservatives nor a victory for liberals. The bill would have passed Committee regardless of how Sen. Snowe voted.
Senator Snowe, in her own words, said her vote was a maybe on the Senate floor. Smart political observers like Carrie Budoff Brown at Politico understand that Snowe's vote radically increases the likelihood of Dem-on-Dem political violence over any single significant move to the left that the Democratic Leadership contemplates when they attempt to merge the bill.
Think of the Snowe vote as tent pegs holding the bill in place, while liberal generated wind storms attempt to move the tent to the left. The chances of the pegs coming out and the tent being blown like a tumbleweed are real and will be devastating to the bill.
Please click here for the rest of the post.
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CaptainObvious Member

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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 04:59 pm |
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Hartlyboy wrote: I'm old and easily confused. How is all this talk about global warming related to the topic of health care reform? Both a scam?
We wandered of topic .... This set of stuff started with the premise that:
Facts are the truth by definition.
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America in trouble Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 04:33 pm |
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Yes "Why?"
The math is all screwed up and that is the Obama way of confusing the American people. Even Congress will vote and have no idea on what is in the Obamacare bill. I am on Medicare . . . . Obama will take money from Medicare to fund his health care plan . . . . Obama says we can keep our health care government insurance coverage as is (!)
When Charles "Chuck" Schumer (D, NY) is smiling something bad is afoot for the American people. Charles Grassly (R, Iowa) sat-in on the president's health care discussions and he says it just don't add up. Medicare for seniors will get the royal shaft.
That lovely new medical facility building on North Street in Dover will soon empty out of physicians if the Obama government health care insurance plan is passed and gets signed by Obama. It will be left looking like a sanotorium for the indigent. Surgeons, medical specialists, and nurses won't like working for a pitence income.
This all falls under Obama's promise to "fundamentally change America" that you voted for and has already failed in Massachusetts and Tennessee where it went bust.
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Playing the Game Member

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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 11:36 am |
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Why?
nota bene wrote:
Playing the Game wrote: So it's like I said, facts are anything you want them to be. Any fool can find another fool or 2 to quote as a source. Like the man made global warming folks or just about any politician you can name.
CaptainObvious wrote:
FACTS are not anything you want them to be. Facts are information that is verifiable thru one or more sources. What somebody says is a fact, may not be a fact after all - if the basis of "said" fact is shown to be false, then it is not a fact.
PLAYING THE GAME: PLEASE PUT YOUR RESPONSES UNDER THE POST THAT YOU ARE REPLYING TO...THANK YOU.
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Hartlyboy Member

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Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 05:25 am |
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| I'm old and easily confused. How is all this talk about global warming related to the topic of health care reform? Both a scam?
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CaptainObvious Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 10:46 pm |
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Playing the Game wrote: Who's observation, and are they relable? How do I know they are certified to collect and disseminate the data they are claiming to be fact? I need reliable information, not consensus when I am dealing with the future of our planet.
NOAA and several other organizations measure all sorts of things.
The consensus bit is only for people saying global warming is man-made.
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Playing the Game Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 10:35 pm |
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| Who's observation, and are they relable? How do I know they are certified to collect and disseminate the data they are claiming to be fact? I need reliable information, not consensus when I am dealing with the future of our planet.
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CaptainObvious Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 10:24 pm |
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Playing the Game wrote: So it's like I said, facts are anything you want them to be. Any fool can find another fool or 2 to quote as a source. Like the man made global warming folks or just about any politician you can name.
CaptainObvious wrote:
FACTS are not anything you want them to be. Facts are information that is verifiable thru one or more sources. What somebody says is a fact, may not be a fact after all - if the basis of "said" fact is shown to be false, then it is not a fact.
No, you have to go back to being "VERIFIABLE". The reduction in polar ice is verifiable thru observation. Rising AVERAGE global temps are verifiable thru observation. Both are via empirical evidence. Man-made global warming cannot be VERIFIED scientifically, it is a conclusion that can only be reached by a preponderance of data, not by testing or experiment.
Scientists have made a causal connection from those things to man-made global warming. Problem is that many (not all) have reach this conclusion/consensus but it is not much more than theory. Why? To establish scientific fact, one has to be able to test the hypothesis/theory. Man-man global warming cannot be tested as there is no experimental "control". That is, you can't point to another "Earth" with the same conditions but w/out "man made factors" and prove that w/out us driving cars, using coal, etc. the earth wouldn't be warming anyway.
Politicians area a different story.
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nota bene Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 10:13 pm |
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Playing the Game wrote: So it's like I said, facts are anything you want them to be. Any fool can find another fool or 2 to quote as a source. Like the man made global warming folks or just about any politician you can name.
CaptainObvious wrote:
FACTS are not anything you want them to be. Facts are information that is verifiable thru one or more sources. What somebody says is a fact, may not be a fact after all - if the basis of "said" fact is shown to be false, then it is not a fact.
PLAYING THE GAME: PLEASE PUT YOUR RESPONSES UNDER THE POST THAT YOU ARE REPLYING TO...THANK YOU.
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Playing the Game Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 10:02 pm |
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So it's like I said, facts are anything you want them to be. Any fool can find another fool or 2 to quote as a source. Like the man made global warming folks or just about any politician you can name.
CaptainObvious wrote:
FACTS are not anything you want them to be. Facts are information that is verifiable thru one or more sources. What somebody says is a fact, may not be a fact after all - if the basis of "said" fact is shown to be false, then it is not a fact.
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el22526 Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 08:27 pm |
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When you look at who in the 111th was in office during the 110th congress. And you look at their grades for following the US Constittion last session. What do you expect? And you know who is to blame? Everyone who voted these people in office.
It isn't the politicians fault alone. If you voted for them to get in there? you are accountable for what actions they do!
And Am I able to take some of that blame too? Yes.
Baucus grade from 0-100 point? 0 on topics like
Budget Resolution 0
Funds for War, Welfare, Etc 0
And then look at all who voted for his bill?
And how they ranked in grades for following the US Constitution.
Look at Carper Budget Resolution 0
Funds for War, Welfare 0
Biden budget Resoulution 0
Funds for War, welfare 0
Obama (D) - ? ? - - ? ? ? ?
Don't take my word for it though. I told people when the report come out before the elctions.
And everyone is wondering now why we are in such a mess?
Same people doing the same thing Some playing musical Chairs though bouncing from whose your party to Where will I go from here.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/Freedom_Index_110-4.pdf
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tspong Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 08:16 pm |
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Copied below is a letter to the editor submitted to the Delaware State News. You can post your opinions by clicking on "Reply."
Can someone explain to me how government run insurance is going to benefit each and every person?
My husband worked for the state for 36 years. We were lucky. He didn’t make a lot of money but we had insurance. When our children were growing up, the Blue Cross insurance we had was OK but we had to pay out of our pocket; then, after the deductible was paid, we received 80 percent of our money back, if we saved our paperwork and knew hot to go through the process.
Then our insurance got better; we paid co-pays. Finally, we could afford to see the doctor. By now our children are grown and they don’t have insurance.
The big day comes, my husband and I retire. We both have insurance and we pay insurance on our grandson whom we have raised since his birth. We pay $316 per month for insurance on our grandson; this money comes out of pension and Social Security checks. OK, we are still doing OK. But my husband turns 65 years old. Time for Medicare. Here we go again. He must have $96.40 taken out of his Social Security check each month. Now, we are paying $96.40 per month, every month, instead of the co-pay which would be less. Our medical care isn’t any better, but we are paying more.
We don’t have a right to decline Medicare or our Social Security checks will stop. Social Security is something we worked for all our lives because we never made enough money to save. In a few months, $96.40 per month will come out of my Social Security check for Medicare. My grandson’s insurance will run out. He has a medical problem that leaves him disabled. He is trying for disability, but it’s been almost a year.
Government needs to help people that don’t have insurance, and I know there are many. But maybe this could be accomplished if the government would stop helping us that don’t need, want, or can’t afford their help.
I know we are paying for people with no insurance when they go to the hospital; this makes costs go up, which is passed no to us with insurance, and this is expensive.
So, to sum it all up, it’s simple. Let’s get insurance for the people who don’t have any. I don’t mind paying co-pays or even some low taxes to help the needy. It would be a lot cheaper than $192.80 per month for Medicare and $316 for our grandson’s insurance.
But be careful. Isn’t Medicare government-run insurance? Please, God, help us, because we can’t reverse this, as what employer would go back. None, we are stuck. It might be the same if we pass a health bill.
Patsy Barwick
Smyrna
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ltcdolphin Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 07:40 pm |
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CaptainObvious wrote: Playing the Game wrote: FACTS are anything you want them to be, much like statistics. You toss around facts like candy. Dan Rather said George Bush was AWOL, to you that is a fact.
The interest rate yield on 12 month CD's at Dover Federal Credit union is 2.55%. That is a verifiable fact.
No, wrong. The later example is correct- something verifiable.
Dan rather did not report facts w.r.t. to Bush being AWOL-- that was VERIFIED as false b/c the supporting "evidence" was fabricated. So, no, it was not FACT. It was FACT that he did leave to go work on some campaign (if memory serves me). But he was not AWOL.
FACTS are not anything you want them to be. Facts are information that is verifiable thru one or more sources. What somebody says is a fact, may not be a fact after all - if the basis of "said" fact is shown to be false, then it is not a fact.
Go look up the definition.
wam time again. so global warmimng is a fact because one or more sources say so?? like to see you use truthful facts for once.
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tspong Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 07:37 pm |
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Copied below is a letter to the editor submitted to the Delaware State News. You can post your opinions by clicking on "Reply."
The overwhelmingly popular Medicare program that serves 47 million seniors and the disabled is now over 44 years old, and growing. Since 1965, new factors have changed our nation and the practice of medicine.
• Life expectancy tables have risen steadily.
• New medical procedures continue to improve outcomes.
• New drugs and therapies are introduced daily.
• Organ transplants add to medical successes.
All of these factors have had an economic impact on Medicare, which survives in the same environment with all the other health care delivery systems, where inflation has been in the double digits for decades. Private health insurance premiums keep rising out of control, while Medicare, thankfully, still keeps a shaky lid on costs. Medicare still has the power to set the "reasonable charge," and after the annual deductible, pays 80 percent of the "reasonable charge." The rest of society usually pays the "actual" charge, which keeps climbing in an inflationary spiral, with no real end in sight. Without Medicare, millions of seniors would no longer be with us, but were saved by advanced practices in medicine and solid health insurance provided by Uncle Sam.
Isn’t it time to offer a Medicare-type program to all? That would surely be better than the economic disaster which faces us all if we irrationally do nothing.
Irv Levitt
Dover
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CaptainObvious Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 06:54 pm |
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Playing the Game wrote: FACTS are anything you want them to be, much like statistics. You toss around facts like candy. Dan Rather said George Bush was AWOL, to you that is a fact.
The interest rate yield on 12 month CD's at Dover Federal Credit union is 2.55%. That is a verifiable fact.
No, wrong. The later example is correct- something verifiable.
Dan rather did not report facts w.r.t. to Bush being AWOL-- that was VERIFIED as false b/c the supporting "evidence" was fabricated. So, no, it was not FACT. It was FACT that he did leave to go work on some campaign (if memory serves me). But he was not AWOL.
FACTS are not anything you want them to be. Facts are information that is verifiable thru one or more sources. What somebody says is a fact, may not be a fact after all - if the basis of "said" fact is shown to be false, then it is not a fact.
Go look up the definition.
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Helen here Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 03:12 pm |
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| http://congress.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/10/
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 02:29 pm |
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Thanks to the Free Our Health Care NOW! Action Army, supporting the Light of Day Campaign is as easy as 1-2-3. Just click here, register and tell Congress that you support a three day waiting period for health care legislation. You can make a difference today. Tell them you want the 3 day waiting period!
ObamaCare Reality Check: Seniors Slammed by Painful Budget Cuts. If President Obama and Congressional supporters of government-run health care have their way, the health care budget for seniors will go under the knife. If passed in its current form, ObamaCare legislation would slash senior citizen health benefits in a variety of ways, including:
- Ending Medicare Advantage. Currently enjoyed by one out of four seniors, Medicare Advantage plans cover health benefits which seniors would have to pay out of pocket. Unfortunately, many seniors do not know that their benefits are at risk because their health insurance provider does not refer to their plan explicitly as 'Medicare Advantage'. What's worse, in an effort to protect against a political backlash, the Administration has imposed a gag order on insurance providers, threatening sanctions if they communicate to their Medicare Advantage customers the potential effects of ObamaCare 'reforms'.
- Dramatically Reducing Access to Health Care. Universal coverage may be a boon for uninsured Americans, but it's a bust for those who are currently insured, particularly seniors. Imagine the traffic jams that would be created if the number of cars on the highway increased by 20% overnight. By dramatically expanding coverage, ObamaCare will create a health care traffic jam for insured Americans seeking health care. Moreover, just as highway traffic is most congested at bottlenecks, ObamaCare will create the longest waiting lines for specialists - precisely those medical professionals which America's seniors most need to access timely and easily.
- Significantly Reducing Quality of Care. Congressional health 'reforms' propose to save money by reducing expenditures on important health care services. Under ObamaCare, doctors will receive an average pay cut of 25%. At a time when Americans most need doctors to enter the profession and extend their working lives, ObamaCare discourages their entry and continuation in the profession. What's more, Administration efforts to shift cost aren't benefiting seniors: 47% of the 'extra revenue' which ObamaCare says it is creating through new taxes and painful cuts is dedicated to servicing the cost of health care's dramatic expansion.
ObamaCare Reality Check: ObamaCare Writes the Check, Middle Class Pays the Bill. A recent report published by PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) established that ObamaCare 'reforms' will dramatically increase the cost of insurance for middle-class Americans. Specifically, ObamaCare proposals would increase cost in the following markets:
- 49% increase for the non-group (individual) market.
- 28% increase for small employers (those firms with fewer than 50 employees).
- 11% increase for large employers with uninsured coverage.
- 9% increase for self-insured employers.
You can read a more detailed treatment of the PwC report and read its entire contents here.
Ev erybody gets sc**wed!! That what this so-called bill should be named.
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dover-diva Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 02:07 pm |
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Baucus Bill Bull: The Hypocrites In DC Are Trying To Pass a Doozy
Dr. Peter Weiss exposes the hypocritical Sen. Charles Schumer and Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid who want to impose programs on the nation, while their states sit back at the expense of the rest of us.
CLICK HERE
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davidlanderson Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 05:08 am |
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The big buzzword used to be earmarks, but with the health care bills in the Senate it should be Carve Outs.
The fact that taxes come first and reform later is bad enough. The fact that Reid, Schumer, and the Michigan delegation among others have exemptions like this one is bad news for the rest of the states.
As for us, small businesses could deal with a new payroll tax, but get some tax credits. Non-profits are concerned about new taxes which will come their way. Yet unions got exemptions for their workers in certain states from new excise taxes on Lexus plans (Cadillac is a little down right now). Trial lawyers won their way. Certain clinics who have key senators championing their cause also have exemptions. Insurers seem to have taken a hit, but big Pharma which is spending 100 million on ads to support the plan seems to have bought themselves exemptions. Seniors seem to be bearing the brunt of reform. It almost seems like whether or not you benefit is based upon who is lobbying for you. Is that why they don’t want us to read the bill?
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Helen here Member

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Posted: Wed Oct 14th, 2009 03:32 am |
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http://www.postonpolitics.com/
Gave his vote and stepped down
will Rangel do the same ?
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