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City council meeting July 1, 2008

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Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 07:17 am

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Well let's see, Communism is a good form of Government if you have the rifle, If you are looking down the barrle it suck's.trust me, being a Viet Nam vet I saw it close up and it hasn't changed. I'll keep my guns till they pull my cold dead fingers from around it. If they want to control it so be it to a certain limit. Our way of government might not be perfect but it sure the best that I have seen so far. Again I say as others say "love it or leave it" it's just that easy. Question: If we are so wrong why do millions of people try to come here every year?Gezz even the Arab countries came out of the clay huts.Look what they are building in DuBai and other places. Don't look much like what they preach for their citizens to live. Looks alot like the rich and famous to me.any way as imperfect as we are, I'll keep what I have rather than try and live elsewhere. again just my opinion.

Ps please support and pray for our troops.Their the ones who are giving us these rights to say what we want on these blogs

flyrep
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 06:10 am

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ajdog and cacomistle:

   We do not carry firearms into public buildings.    If we were to consider
doing so, we'd ask our lawyer if it was legal. You know, hundreds of
Constitutionalists came to my wife's defense when she worked for the state.
They defended the Bill of Rights. It is clear that you really don't. Looks like
you and cacomistle need to brush up on ARS 13-3102.

I agree that wits and courage do not require firearms.   I also believe that
installing metal detectors would violate the Fourth Amendment and would do little
to stop the violence that none of us want.    Again, you calling
for them shows an utter disregard for the B.O.R.   People have not told me that they conceal carry into the council chambers. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?    We have not done anything extreme, but remember that Goldwater said: "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."

I noticed that you do not wish to be controlled by carpetbaggers. I do not want to
be controlled by anybody.   So are you saying that the AJ native nobility should
rule us?    As an Arizona native, I don't care how long someone has lived here.
If they wish to govern within the confines of our founding documents and to protect and maintain our rights, then they have my vote.

   Finally, we welcome any questions during a forum.    A forum was shut down
early a few years ago because the panel, hosts, and some incumbents couldn't take the heat.

   Someone grabbed the arm of a grief-stricken man who interrupted the forum, yet
many in the audience wanted the man's question answered.    An officer later told
me that grasping a person's arm is actually an assault. Several of us shouted for
the brute to unhand him and it was done in short order.   The self-appointed forum cop actually thought that he could get away doing that.   You should
have seen the look on his face. It was like, "Oh my, they know that I have
no authority whatsoever to even touch this man."   Fun times.

Last edited on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 06:14 am by flyrep

cacomistle
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 09:30 pm

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ajwatchdog2008 wrote:
Cacomistle, apparently there are those who attend the council meetings who feel the law regarding the prohibition of firearms in a government building do not apply to them. However, the law does apply to them and NO firearms are to be brought into the council meetings or any city building except by active duty sworn law enforcement officers, period.

This ringtail is wondering about a couple of things. Could a bomb detection dog also alert on a concealed weapon? Does AJPD have such a dog? Could a surprise demonstration of this ability be set up for an AJ council meeting? It might make for an interesting night!

ajwatchdog2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 03:45 am

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cacomistle wrote: Bravo ajwatchdog! Well said! You've echoed the feelings of more folks than you know. Did you know there is a sign at the door of the council chambers which prohibits firearms in the building. It's state law. I wonder how many people at council meetings are in violation of that law.

Cacomistle, apparently there are those who attend the council meetings who feel the law regarding the prohibition of firearms in a government building do not apply to them. However, the law does apply to them and NO firearms are to be brought into the council meetings or any city building except by active duty sworn law enforcement officers, period.

ajwatchdog2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 03:33 am

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Lovinglife, take note of what AJBizowner stated about the burden of proof being on the accusers, in this case, the Flynns. They are the ones who made the allegations of corruption against the city council and mayor and have been slinging a lot of mud. To date, they have yet to furnish a single piece of evidence by which to support their allegations. There is nothing hateful about what I say, nor do I hate the Flynns. I suggest you get a handle on your emotions and go back to the very beginning, when the Flynns tried to recall newly seated council members and the mayor, then follow the trail from there. Somewhere along the way you got your facts very mixed up as to who is doing and saying what.

Thank you Cacomistle and AJBizowner for your support. I believe you all, including Mr. W. and myself, along with many others, all want whats best for Apache Junction and for this constant pot stirring by the disgruntled few to stop.

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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 12:39 am

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lovinglife wrote: Have any of you (3) pulled public record on anything Ms. Flynn has said? You 3 are the most hateful bunch around. There is no debate here, only mud slinging. Sayitisnt so is right DOG you hide behind a foolish name, speak your trash talk and want people to hear you.
For your information, in our legal system, as established by the Constitution and the Founding Fathers - the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. The words, "Innocent until PROVEN guilty" come to mind.

The folks in AJ who are wearing white hats aren't all posting here, but they ARE watching and waiting for the candidate forum(s), to ask the questions we all want answered. The only mud being slung is by the Flynns and their friends.

What's so foolish about ajwatchdog's name? It makes a heck of a lot more sense than flyrep - what does THAT mean???

lovinglife
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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 11:09 pm

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Have any of you (3) pulled public record on anything Ms. Flynn has said? You 3 are the most hateful bunch around. There is no debate here, only mud slinging. Sayitisnt so is right DOG you hide behind a foolish name, speak your trash talk and want people to hear you.

cacomistle
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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 07:43 pm

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Bravo ajwatchdog! Well said! You've echoed the feelings of more folks than you know. Did you know there is a sign at the door of the council chambers which prohibits firearms in the building. It's state law. I wonder how many people at council meetings are in violation of that law.

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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 07:39 pm

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I have SO many questions for Mrs. flyrep at a 'meet the candidates'!!! I wonder if she will say I am not being nice and storm out? Maybe she will tell my wife to "keep me in check" again!!

I can't wait to see the expression on her face when she gets beat in the election!! I hope that quiets the disgruntled.

ajwatchdog2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:48 pm

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cacomistle wrote: There hasn't been any enlightenment from Mr. & Mrs. flyrep. Enlightenment would include providing proof to back their allegations of corruption.

Cacomistle, you are correct, Mr. & Mrs. Flytrap have not provided a single shred of proof to back up their allegations of corruption against council and the mayor. I guess they still haven't figured out that most people in the city are not going to drink their kool-aid and then pledge blind allegiance to them.

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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:37 pm

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SayItIsntTrue wrote: flyrep,

I enjoy reading your post. BUT. No matter what you say true or not this ajDOG will have none of it. He states you and your wife this and that. He is the one with the problem. The ones that read this without adding much commits can see. I have logged on to the city meetings and have started going myself. Dog and the other have a play in what happens with the recall. TRUST ME. Shannon has given good info, anyone with a brain can do the investigating themselves. This ajdog is well known for being a bully yet he stands behind a foolish call name and attacks you and your wife. You have enlighten people to what is, it's about time people start getting mad. Your recall will be voted on and that me thinks they no like.

Oh and what took place with Mrs. Flynn over at AZDOR shows she stands for states rights and for what she believes in. Shannon has done more in her young life to better the system then many much older. I support you both.
There hasn't been any enlightenment from Mr. & Mrs. flyrep. Enlightenment would include providing proof to back their allegations of corruption.

ajwatchdog2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:34 pm

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SayItIsntTrue, I would like to engage you in conversation, but I have no desire to do so until such time as you get out of your buttkissing trailer park trash mode. Okay? Thanks!

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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:31 pm

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flyrep wrote: Ajdog,

I'm a republican too, but the national party is no gem in the ardent defense

of the Second Amendent or the Bill of Rights in general.

Yes, I think that some people are carrying firearms into city buildings here.

You just ask the city attorney about what he can do to a citizen with

CCW who conceal carries into AJ public buildings.   Me thinks that his answer might

surprise you.   There are certain pro-Second Amendment laws in this

state that you might need to brush up on.

http://www.azcdl.org/

Flytrap, I admit that the Republican party isn't perfect, far from it, but no political party is. We've got some good politicians who really care about serving the people, and then we've had and will continue to have our share of bad ones.

You state that you are aware that there are some people bringing firearms to the council meetings. Are you and your spouse some of those people bringing a firearm to the meetings, especially one that is concealed? What valid reason can there be for someone to bring a firearm into a council meeting, especially when children may be present and where tempers often flair? I won't argue your right or that of any law abiding citizen's right to bear arms, but common sense needs to prevail here as to when and where a firearm should be carried. Extremism, to wit, pushing your rights to the limit just to prove a point is not in the best interests of those who value our constitutional rights. There are people who tend to act very arrogant when they are carrying a loaded firearm. It obviously gives them false confidence and makes them feel like a bigger person. Then there are those who tend to walk softly and carry a big stick. I myself would never say anything while carrying a loaded firearm, that I wouldn't say if I wasn't carrying one. In other words, I don't need a firearm to do my talking for me. Courage comes from within and is not something you acquire at a gun shop and then strap to your waist. If I do carry a firearm, it's not for the purpose of taking a life but hopefully for saving one. There are those who live for a fight. I would rather fight to live.

There are also places where firearms should not be carried by ordinary law abiding citizens who have the right to bear arms. They are, financial institutions, any house of worship, schools, any establishment that serves any type of alcoholic beverage, courtrooms, government buildings including of course, council meetings. I put council meetings on the list because there are times when tempers flair and we've seen that happen at A.J.'s council meetings on many different occassions. There was an incident in another state not all that long ago, where 5 people were killed including two councilmembers. This isn't the only time there has been shootings at council meetings and sadly, it probably won't be the last. There is just no way that any of us can predict when someone's temper might flair up to the point where they try to commit murder, so safeguards should be in place to minimize the risk. Keeping firearms out of council meetings except by law enforcement officers is just one such way of minimizing the risk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkwood_City_Council_shooting

Flytrap, you posted a link. If you wish to point something out then please be more specific and provide the link(s)s that support your argument(s).

We're the good guys who wear white hats. We continue to watch.

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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:11 pm

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SORRY, my error!

Last edited on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:14 pm by

SayItIsntTrue
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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 03:48 pm

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flyrep,

I enjoy reading your post. BUT. No matter what you say true or not this ajDOG will have none of it. He states you and your wife this and that. He is the one with the problem. The ones that read this without adding much commits can see. I have logged on to the city meetings and have started going myself. Dog and the other have a play in what happens with the recall. TRUST ME. Shannon has given good info, anyone with a brain can do the investigating themselves. This ajdog is well known for being a bully yet he stands behind a foolish call name and attacks you and your wife. You have enlighten people to what is, it's about time people start getting mad. Your recall will be voted on and that me thinks they no like.

flyrep
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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:17 am

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Ajdog,

I'm a republican too, but the national party is no gem in the ardent defense

of the Second Amendent or the Bill of Rights in general.

Yes, I think that some people are carrying firearms into city buildings here.

You just ask the city attorney about what he can do to a citizen with

CCW who conceal carries into AJ public buildings.   Me thinks that his answer might

surprise you.   There are certain pro-Second Amendment laws in this

state that you might need to brush up on.

http://www.azcdl.org/

Last edited on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 06:20 am by flyrep

ajwatchdog2008
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 11:11 pm

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flyrep wrote: AJDOG,

If you are against a government employee having the tools to defend

herself and that makes you look like a liberal gun grabber.    Maybe you are one.

The Department of Revenue

would not allow citizens to lock up their weapons before entering the building,

let alone employees.   Now security officers in state buildings are required to allow us

to lock up our firearms in the lobby before entering so we were vindicated.

She only wanted to lock it up as citizens can do now.     Would you like anymore

gun control laws to complete your fascist day? How about gun registration Hoss?

If Shannon is elected, we will both sign any recall petition so get some walking

shoes and get in shape.    We don't fear political death.

Flytrap, I'm in favor of a person's right to bear arms and I'm a republican, so there's two more things you're wrong about. What I'm not is a person like you and your insignificant other, who go around shooting your mouths off, saying all kinds of nasty things about other people, then try to silence anyone refusing to drink your poisoned kool-aid and who calls you out on your BS. You might be able to exert mind control on your younger insignificant other, but not on those of us who are wise to you BS game and you do spread around more than your fair share of BS.

By the way, Flytrap, you know of anyone bringing loaded firearms to the council meetings?

Last edited on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 11:12 pm by ajwatchdog2008

MWW85220
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 10:10 pm

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You and your wife have called mayor and council everything except human! Mr Hoffman & Mr Stern have also borne the brunt of your attacks. You sir are the liar by making allegations and not proving them! View the vidos of council meetings if you doubt my words.

flyrep
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 08:26 pm

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AJDOG,

If you are against a government employee having the tools to defend

herself and that makes you look like a liberal gun grabber.    Maybe you are one.

The Department of Revenue

would not allow citizens to lock up their weapons before entering the building,

let alone employees.   Now security officers in state buildings are required to allow us

to lock up our firearms in the lobby before entering so we were vindicated.

She only wanted to lock it up as citizens can do now.     Would you like anymore

gun control laws to complete your fascist day? How about gun registration Hoss?

If Shannon is elected, we will both sign any recall petition so get some walking

shoes and get in shape.    We don't fear political death.

flyrep
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 08:08 pm

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BS, total BS.    The system is fine, but evil people have corrupted it.

Do you deny that the US has hired ex Nazi, ex KGB, and ex-Stasi? It is documented.

We still enjoyed what freedom we have because many of us do not trust

government like wide eyed little children and we keep them accountable.

We are the defenders of freedom.   We wear the white hats AJdog and

we are not backing down.

I have said that many in government still defend our founding documents and

my wife has given compliments to good public servants so either you don't listen

or you LIE.

ajwatchdog2008
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 06:48 pm

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MWW85220 wrote: BS

You READ it, I lived it! You wrote that there are similarities between the US & the Soviet Union, YOU need to sober up and smell the coffee!

You probably could find fault with the sunrise! For almost a year, I have never heard one positive comment about our city, state or federal governments. Only negatives that portray you and yours as victims of imagined tyranny.

If you can't dazzle them with facts, baffle them with BS, this IS your mantra!!

Mr. W., you sir, are absolutely 100% correct about Mr. & Mrs. Flytrap. They have brought NOTHING positive to the city council meetings, speaking in person when in public, interviews in news publications, or when posting messages on various blogs. To hear the both of them speak and if we didn't know better, we would get the impression that the whole world was out to get them. If you search the internet for Mrs. Flytrap, you will find nothing but her self absorbed controversy, including her shananigans at the state capital, where she raised a stink over how she wanted to bring a firearm to work. Makes me wonder who may be bringing concealed weapons to city hall during the council meetings, as I have heard there are several people doing it who are not law enforcement officers. Regardless if anyone has a CCW or not, city hall is no place for anyone but law enforcement officers to be bearing firearms. I would hope it that it would not come down to installing metal detectors at the entrance to city hall, but considering how a few people have conducted themselves during council meetings, in does give me pause as to the possibility of something violent happening when someone snaps because they aren't getting their own way and it has happened. One example is the time that Maricopa County supervisor board member, Mary Rose Wilcox, was shot during a board meeting by some nut who brought a firearm into the county building.

I shudder to think what council meetings would be like if Mrs. Flytrap were elected as a councilmember. Most likely she would try to take control of the meetings, make motions to abolish the city's code pertaining to residences, and demand the city's code enforcement division be abolished. Picture Apache Junction as one big sanitation dump, because that's exactly what our city would look like in the Flytraps have their way. Mr. W., you again are right about how there would be anarchy in our city's streets if the Flytraps were running our city. We would revert back to the days when the west was wild and mostly lawless, when many people did live in fear of the outlaws who would shoot the sheriff and take over the town. The movie "The Quick and The Dead" comes to mind as to how this city would be run under the leadership of the Flytraps.

Mr. W., one can only hope that if Mrs. Flytrap somehow gets her name on the ballot in March for city council, that the public will pepper her with questions about what her intentions are and where she stands on many of the important issues concerning Apache Junction. Once they do that, those who don't already know how lacking in experience, character and fortitude Mrs. Flytrap is, will find out when she dodges their questions and acts like her usual nasty self, by claiming that people are picking on her. I can't wait for the first public forum for candidates to face the public, so she can be asked to provide the proof about the corruption she claims our city council and mayor are involved in, the very proof that so far she has failed to provide one tiny spec of evidence for.

I truly believe the good people of Apache Junction are much smarter than what the Flytraps give them credit for. I believe many of them will see if not already, just how the Flytraps have aligned themselves with outsiders, including Walp and Stephens, two people who won't hesitate to burn this town to the ground. Walp wants to play the part that Gene Hackman did in the movie, The Quick and The Dead. I seriously doubt he will succeed but he's going to try and with the blessing of the Flytrap family. It would be one thing if the Flytraps truly cared about Apache Junction and its people, but in reality, all they care about is their own self interests and forcing their will upon the rest of the us. Ain't a gonna happen on my watch.

Of course this is just my honest to goodness opinion.

We're the good guys who wear white hats. We refuse to surrender control of our town to carpetbaggers. We continue to watch.

Last edited on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 06:51 pm by ajwatchdog2008

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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 05:31 pm

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BS

You READ it, I lived it! You wrote that there are similarities between the US & the Soviet Union, YOU need to sober up and smell the coffee!

You probably could find fault with the sunrise! For almost a year, I have never heard one positive comment about our city, state or federal governments. Only negatives that portray you and yours as victims of imagined tyranny.

If you can't dazzle them with facts, baffle them with BS, this IS your mantra!!

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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 04:34 am

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I equated the US government to nothing.      There are similarities.   There are

Stasi-like programs in America now.     The US has hired an ex KGB agent and Stasi

big wig in Homeland Security. Where have you been?    Our PD does not have tattle

tale programs in AJ schools as far as I know, but other districts have them.    They

encourage the kids to tattle on their friends and family for just about anything

and offer cash rewards.    Americans who originally lived in the USSR have claimed

that America is losing too many freedoms and they ought to know.   I have read

and understood plenty of our history, thank you.    Some laws are just plain

wrong.    Ever hear of DC Vs. Heller?   I swear you'd go along with any law

made by man, but I hope that I'm wrong.

Last edited on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 04:36 am by flyrep

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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 05:56 pm

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You equate OUR government to the tyranny that was the Soviet Union! You haven't got the foggiest idea about the practical aspects of any totalitarian regime, you just spout your rhetoric and try to impress people with your lack of knowledge. PLEASE read and comprehend history and political science with heavy emphasis on the developments of the last 200+ years.

flyrep
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 02:39 am

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Anarchy is not my goal if I believe in the etenal truths and natural rights

that our founding documents reflect.    I am not for anarchy if I disagree with some

of the city ordinances.    It seems that you were implying that, but I could be

wrong.

The Arizona Constitution was required

to resemble all founding documents to include the Declaration of Independence.

Government was the problem with the Soviet Union and it is a problem here

sometimes.

It is just in different degrees.

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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 05:55 pm

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It is very hard to follow any logic in your comments because you keep changing the names you use. natural truths, eternal truths????????????

In History and Political Science there are 'standard names' that are used for events and concepts, thus confusion is avoided.

I have been in communist countries and they have NO freedoms or rights. If you think they do, you are delusional.

Anarchy seems to be your goal.

flyrep
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 05:32 am

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Amen to that.    How does a liberal become a conservative interested in the

Second Amendment?   By being a crime victim.   How does a neoconservative

become a true conservative interested in defending the Fourth and Fifth

Amendments?   By being falsely accused by the police or by having his car

illegally searched by rogue officers.

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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 05:11 am

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and the rest of them...

6. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

7. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

8. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

9. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.

10. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved.

11. What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?

12. The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.

13. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.

14. Guns only have two enemies; rust and politicians.

15. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.

16. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

17. 911: Government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer.

18. Assault is a behavior, not a device.

19. Criminals love gun control; it makes their jobs safer.

20. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.

21. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.

22. You have only the rights you are willing to fight for.

23. Enforce the gun control laws we ALREADY have; don't make more.

24. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.

25. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.

IF YOU AGREE, PASS THIS 'REFRESHER' ON TO TEN FREE CITIZENS.

Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist

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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 05:06 am

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Here are some rights that myself and most true conservatives believe in...

Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not.'

~ Thomas Jefferson

FIREARMS REFRESHER COURSE

1. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

3. Colt: The original point and click interface.

4. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

5. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 03:57 am

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85220,
I'm glad that you mentioned China. A Chinese citizen has just the same rights
as I do through natural rights.   His government does not recognize it, but that
does not not negate his rights.   That is an eternal truth as mentioned in
the Declaration of Independence.   Magna Carta was a step in the right direction as
a royal, noble or commoner falsely accused, would at least have
to have a sham trial.   Government is far from perfect, but it can be far
better than it is now if politicians start following the founding documents including
the Declaration of Independence.   Maybe eternal truths is a better way to put it
than universal truths.   I think that natural rights and eternal truths
are related.   Animals for instance tend to fight for their lives and humans have
the right to do the same. That is fairly simple and there are many other
examples.

Having standards is one thing, but the pendulum is at times swinging away
from property rights, natural rights, Constitutional rights, individual rights etc.
For instance, a bagal store owner was not allowed to have a portable sign yet politicians
and realators could.   That violated his rights and the ordinance was assinie. The Insitute of Justice got involved and the ordinance was
reversed.   The same organizaiton saved a mechanic whose property was coveted by
the city of Mesa to turn over to another business in an eminent domain case.   That
was plainly against the Fifth Amendment and the Arizona Constitution, but that didn't
stop Mesa from trying to steal the property.

Last edited on Wed Aug 27th, 2008 03:59 am by flyrep

cacomistle
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Posted: Tue Aug 26th, 2008 07:24 pm

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hey MWW! I was going to make a comment about a battle of wits with an unarmed person, but I decided not to.

Thanks for the history lesson and food for thought.

MWW85220
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 11:37 pm

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Flyrep

If they are natural rights, why were they not realized before the codifications of the Magna Carta and other documents as we have been discussing? Natural rights to me, means they are derived from God, but humanity had to wait until they were granted by the king or the church. Only since the late 1700's has man had any real rights, other than to toil and die.

One of the early awakenings of human rights came after the plagues, when the labour force had been drastically reduced and craftsmen could demand a better wage and living conditions.

Even today there are peoples deprived of their rights. Communist China and Burma to name but two.

Our system is not, nor will it ever be PERFECT; but it is the best that man has ever created in the 7,000 years of human history. de Tocquville spoke about property equating to political power but property ownership also entails certain obligations; both to the owner and his neighbors.

do not cause damage to others Damage is in the eye of the damaged. If I have junk piled on my property, it might not be a physical danger to my neighbors but it could cause them not to be able to enjoy their yard.

All over town there areas with IMO junk piles. To improve our town we need more tax revenue and constant review of our laws. With blighted housing areas, are people or businesses willing to move here? Probably not, THEREFORE because certain people have junk piles at their property, they are stopping social & economic growth and thus costing me tax dollars.

I do not speak of depriving an owner of his property rights but of his obligation to do what is just and proper under the framework of our government. The majority of our laws are derived from and because of updated safety and health standards for the majority of the people and not from tyranny.

Universal truths, do you mean the laws of nature?

Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 11:47 pm by

flyrep
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 09:23 pm

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MWW,

There are many natural rights and universal truths and you mentioned

a few. Many want to do whatever

they please so long as they do not cause damage to others. That is what the

founding fathers envisioned.

MWW85220
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 08:06 pm

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lovinglife

Sit there and be quiet, the adults are talking!

lovinglife
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 07:19 am

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85220 I laugh at much of what you post here and on other forums. You are never happy UNLESS people agree with you. Stop, think and understand you are not always right. No matter how good it may make you feel to think so.

Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 02:19 pm by lovinglife

MWW85220
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 12:02 am

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Natural rights? to be born , grow old and die?

Universal truths? Gravity, speed of light?

PLEASE be clearer in your questions.

flyrep
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Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:03 pm

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flyrep wrote: Nietzsche? Doubtful.   Tell me someting about MC, kings, and rights I don't already

know.   Natural rights are worth defending and our founding documents have universal

truths from God.   I have mentioned natural rights many times so I know that

I'm not missing much of anything.   I'm glad that you know about history too.

Last edited on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:07 pm by flyrep

flyrep
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Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:01 pm

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Last edited on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:03 pm by flyrep

MWW85220
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Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 06:05 pm

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I never said that the of the amendments since 1791 weren't proper.

Most of them were.

Seems to be a bit of Nietzsche or de Tocqueville in your thinking.

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Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 05:55 pm

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Throughout most of man's history, it was thought that God granted all rights to the monarch and that the common man were only to serve him.

The Magna Carta started to change this thinking.

BlowingUrCover
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Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 05:45 pm

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Wow! LOUD never refered to U personnally, but now you have identified Urself as one of the recall groupies. Don't take it to heart. Give some info, so others will listen!

Flyrep, we all have our opinion of things. But Ur group never has any proof about the garbage U throw. Give who, what, where and when. Maybe U might get some people to listen to Ur words!

flyrep
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Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 05:38 pm

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I haven't forgot the Articles of Confederation or anything you mentioned.   I refer

to the founding documents, but know that natural rights are thing that matters most

because we get them from God.    That covers it well enough.    Now as for the

Articles of Confederation, I'd love to see a federal government with some those

limits.    I never said that the of the amendments since 1791 weren't proper.

Most of them were.

Last edited on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 05:39 pm by flyrep

MWW85220
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Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 05:27 pm

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Not negative, FACTUAL!

Man's rights were not considered before the Magna Carta, Rights Of Man, the French Revolution and the America Founding Documents. Our founding fathers were visionaries that been oppressed and wanted better regulation in their new country. Before these codifications, a person had only the rights given by the king. People were serfs to the lords, did not own land, could not vote and had no judicial rights.

Our founding fathers did not get it right the first time either, You seen to forget the Articles of Confederation. There are multiple examples of things that were tolerated in our growing country and later found to be repugnant.

Our founding documents are frameworks that have had 200+ years of legal and social embellishment. The 200+ years of additions can not be over looked or negated even though some are repugnant to us or offend our sensibilities.

You are limiting your view of our society by only referencing the founding documents.

There have been some very good additions to our system that were not written by Jefferson, Paine, and Franklin.

flyrep
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Posted: Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 05:42 am

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That is a negative 85220.   The BOR guarantees some of our natural rights.   I refer

to founding

documents which merely guarantee the rights that we already had.   I'm not

a citizen of the world and I am against globalist government, but universal truth

never changes. Even the best country in history has had problems as

I have said before.   I mention our founding documents often because they are a

good reference point in attempting to remind despotic politicians of where their

constraints

lie and our natural rights as mentioned in the Declaration of

Independence.    I do like the US Constitution, but I tend to find it a bit

too collectivist as did George Mason and Patrick Henry.    It is wonderful, but not

ideal in my opinion.   Women, for instance should have been voting from the

get go, but they had more rights in other areas before 1920.   Then FDR confiscated

or stole gold and signed the NFA of 1934.   So in 1919 a disenfranchised woman

could buy a tommygun by mail order and not have to pay a bribe to the feds for

a bogus license.

Blowing,

    Oh, so your interpretation of AJ politics is fine, but we shouldn't express our

opinions or facts?    I could care less if you are getting bored.   Who is whining

now?   If you don't like it, go pound sand or stay. As always, it's your choice.

thinkingoutLOUD
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 11:42 pm

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What are you asking me to give you? I'm no part of a group. I just have my thoughts. It is you that needs teaching.

Last edited on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 04:20 am by thinkingoutLOUD

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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 08:51 pm

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Getting real tired of the same old mantra from the same old recall group. When will they say something that has meaning and substance? This forum is getting real boring. Give us something! Not just 'corruption, good old boy network, constitution, blah, blah, blah'. How about something factual that can be looked into? Or is it all just UR interpretation of things?

thinkingoutLOUD
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 05:37 pm

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If it isn't the spin doctor?

MWW85220
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 05:22 pm

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The Bill of Rights is a WONDERFUL document but there have been over 200 yrs of further development in our legal system.

IE: under the Bill of Rights, women do NOT have the right to vote!

IE: under the Bill of Rights, slavery is still allowed!

IE: under the Bill of Rights, the people DID NOT elect their Senators!

IE: under the Bill of Rights, Presidents can serve more that two terms

Flyrep, by your TOTAL reliance on our founding documents, you negate any and all legal development after December 1791.

flyrep
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 04:03 am

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Wow you two, I would think that if anyone would be like a Soviet Political Officer, it

would be you.    If defending the Bill of Rights makes me some commissar, then

at least I have the background knowledge to fill the shoes.    But of course,

defenders of liberty are not collectivists, are they?    I never told anyone how

to think or even what to think.    If you violate my rights, however, it is politically

on. Plain and simple.   Funny how Phil Gordon is facing recall, labels

his detractors as a fringe element, and uses his city attorney to bar employees from

signing his recall petitions.    If both recall groups are such a weak minority, then

why do these