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Mamazoyd
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 06:28 pm |
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It's just my opinion raz. Every single one of us has an opinion about each and every candidate -- why we like them or not, why we'll vote for them or not, and then there are those people out there who don't like any of the candidates running. As a moderate, I'll most certainly agree with you on the point of voting for Obama, in my case if Romney got the Rep. nomination.
Why this statement? Good question, what would I do if John McCain got the nod? I would vote for Barack if he was the opponent, if it is Billary, I would stay home..........The reason for that would be if someone is going to destroy our country, I don't want it to be on the shoulders of the Republican party.
You've always come across as extremely conservative raz. Why would you vote for Barack instead of McCain? Does your statement indicate that the country will be destroyed anyhow so why not put it on the shoulders of the Dems? Why do you think McCain would destroy the country? Because he doesn't want to give up or what? You've previously stated he is too old -- How does this fit in with what you're now stating?
If John McCain has the opportunity to implement his agenda, it would be no different than if a Dem was in office. He is very forceful about the Iraq war and Terror, but the truth is, both parties have to go down that road.
Once again, you've really confused.
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sometimes rational
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 06:07 pm |
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| Sorry, Mama: It's not your right to be biased against Mormons that have the troops upset with you... it's that we're disappointed in your decision to be such. I only met one Morman (to my knowledge) in my life...I don't know why you have decided to condemn an entire religion's followers but I hope someday you might meet a Morman whom you like and respect and maybe this virtual wall you have built around them will crumble.
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sometimes rational
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 05:57 pm |
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razenkn wrote:
It is shameful to paint every Mormon with such a hatelful brush. I have a 72 year old aunt that thinks like that, she can't walk by George Bush's picture on TV or Tiger Woods without shuddering and saying something derogatory, but we overlook her ignorance and chalk it up to her generation that didn't know better, are you from that generation? Nobody in my family takes her seriously. She too judges everyone with the same brush and we laugh about it behind her back.
At least with respect to your Aunt and Bush, RAZ, the lady is correct.
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sometimes rational
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 05:52 pm |
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razenkn wrote:
Sometimes Rational wrote...
I think it's interesting that you chose to call a white church "White supremacist". UMMM.....If you'd take the time to quote me correctly, you will not find that I wrote what you just said I wrote...I was extending the logic of RAZ and you missed the point. It was RAZ who initially pronounced Obama a separatist because he attends a 'black' church...So, if RAZ is consistant about that point, RAZ must also believe whites who attend a white churce are separatists as well.
I have requested you not reply to my posts or use my name in your posts SR. I made the decision long ago to not reply to your posts and asked that you afford me the same consideration. I do not wish to have my name associated with anything you write. This is exactly the reason why. You misquote me, take my posts out of context and for whatever reason seem to have a vendetta against me. I will not tolerate it. If you do this one more time, I will have no choice but to submit your post to the webmaster and have it removed for personal attack and inaccuracies.
I did not say anything you just posted. You do not have the common sense nor my permission to extend my logic on anything. So please refrain from doing so, or I will have your posts removed.
Sorry, toots but you don't get to decide who is in and who is out of the forum...this ain't your island and I do not need your permission to envoke your sacred handle. . Perhaps if your posts were more logical and balanced, they might not generate as much heat....and speaking of inaccuracies, if it wasn't you who labeled Obama a separatist, then we must have a second RAZ onboard....so: relax, mediatate, and have some good food..the likelyhood of a Democrat pres is starting to get to ya. Last edited on Mon Jan 28th, 2008 06:12 pm by
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razenkn
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 04:32 pm |
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Mama wrote..
You consider John McCain too old -- I consider Romney too sleezy. So I guess my question to you is: what you going to do when John wins the nomination? The same thing as me only vice-versa and switch sides?
Just curious Mama, what makes you say Governor Romney is "too sleezy"? I've never heard that about him.
Good question, what would I do if John McCain got the nod? I would vote for Barack if he was the opponent, if it is Billary, I would stay home. It would be the first time in my voting history to do that, but I would. The reason for that would be if someone is going to destroy our country, I don't want it to be on the shoulders of the Republican party.
If John McCain has the opportunity to implement his agenda, it would be no different than if a Dem was in office. He is very forceful about the Iraq war and Terror, but the truth is, both parties have to go down that road. They aren't going to be able to willy nilly pull our troops out at this point and everyone knows that. It's all campaign rhetoric. Those who are voting for them for that reason will be sorely disappointed, kind of like when Nancy and Harry got in, they promised they would bring the troops home. Didn't happen though did it? No different.
Last edited on Mon Jan 28th, 2008 04:33 pm by razenkn
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Mamazoyd
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 03:51 pm |
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Surprise_teacher wrote: Mamazoyd,
It is indeed unusual for me to agree with Raz, but keep in mind it's only with part of his statement. Raz seems to like Romney. Based on what I've seen and heard, I don't think he would be a good choice. You don't support Romney either. The ley part of my agreement with Raz is this: form your opinion of Romney based on Romney, not based on anyone else who shares his religion.
Appreciate your comments. The only reason I even entered into the religion part was due to a previous posters commenting on the cult situation. I agreed with that posters statement and off we went. There are many, many of us out here who truly believe that. I won't venture there anymore. I'll just state I don't trust him and why would I vote for someone I don't trust. I won't.
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cindisue_g
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 01:11 pm |
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Wouldn't it be a novel idea and best for the country if people voted without bringing in race, gender or religion into it, just vote for the person who is most qualified and who is committed to making changes for the good of the country.
I am so tired of listening to the news and other places and hearing people saying: I'm voting for him because he is black, I'm voting for her because she is a woman, I'm voting for him because of his religion or I'm not voting for him because of his religion or because he is black or because she is a woman.
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Surprise_teacher
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 12:44 pm |
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Mamazoyd,
It is indeed unusual for me to agree with Raz, but keep in mind it's only with part of his statement. Raz seems to like Romney. Based on what I've seen and heard, I don't think he would be a good choice. You don't support Romney either. The ley part of my agreement with Raz is this: form your opinion of Romney based on Romney, not based on anyone else who shares his religion.
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clarz007
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 11:43 am |
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| Barack was named after his father whose middle name was Hussein. No mystery there.
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Patrick
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 09:22 am |
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Lie #1 - Barack Obama is Muslim.
Fact: Barack Obama is an active and committed Christan who has attended the same church with his family for almost 20 years. His two daughters where raised going to the church. Long before entering politics he worked with Church Outreach in poor neighborhoods, fulfilling a central teaching of Jesus Christ to work against Poverty and Need
Lie #2 - Barack Obama does not say the Pledge of Allegiance
Fact: Barack Obama has said the Pledge of Allegance to the American Flag since he was 3 years old. He often leads the U.S. Senate leading all of the Senators in pledging allegance to the American Flag.
Lie #3 - Barack Obama was sworn in on the Koran and refused to swear on the Bible
Fact: Barack Obama was sworn in in the Illinois State Legislature on his family Bible, and sworn into the U.S. Senate on the same family Bible.
Lie #4 - Barack Obama went to a radial "Islamic Wahabi" school as a child
Fact: Barack Obama went to a normal school in Indonesia as a child when he lived there for a number of years. CNN investigated the school and confirmed it is not a Radical Muslim School in any way.
Lie #5 - Barack Obama's middle name is Hussein so he must be a terrorist.
Fact: This is almost too stupid to respond to. Someone's middle name does not make them a terrorist, but thinking it does makes you a bigot a racist or worse.
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Mamazoyd
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 04:30 am |
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raz in part stated:
I have a 72 year old aunt that thinks like that, she can't walk by George Bush's picture on TV or Tiger Woods without shuddering and saying something derogatory, but we overlook her ignorance and chalk it up to her generation that didn't know better, are you from that generation?
Hold the press! You insinuated a while back you had people telling you who I was raz. Ah, just as I thought, intimidation didn't work did it? And you threaten other people on these threads for their comments. Really, you should listen to yourself sometime.
Last edited on Mon Jan 28th, 2008 04:44 am by Mamazoyd
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Mamazoyd
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 04:21 am |
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Surprise_teacher wrote: Mamazoyd, you've prompted me to do something I rarely do, and that's agree with razenkn. To claim that because you've met some dishonest/unpleasant Mormons then many others must also be dishonest or unpleasant is simply foolish. Razenkn stated I think the best way to judge Governor Romney is by his record, his family and his success. While my opinion of Romney is likely very different than razenkn's, my opinion is based on whether or not I agree with Romney's positions, not what I think of my Mormon friends and colleagues.
Well, sorry Surprise Teacher, I would NEVER want to prompt someone to agree with raz. I have known a few good Mormons in my life here in AZ. However, the last several have pretty much negated that. I do not trust him nor do I like him. I think I'm entitled to that opinion, don't you? I would never dream of telling someone who they could or could not vote for -- we all have our reasons.
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Mamazoyd
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 04:15 am |
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You know raz, you don't read very well and I guess why do you care? I know what has taken place, I know what others have told me, I know how transactions have occurred in business dealings, I know how I and many others have been lied to and mislead. If you like them and want to support Romney, so be it, that is your right. I'm not going to call you a fool because that's not my place. I, however, will not support him and that is my right. And I don't consider them a cult because of these above dealings. I consider them a cult because basically they are.
You consider John McCain too old -- I consider Romney too sleezy. So I guess my question to you is: what you going to do when John wins the nomination? The same thing as me only vice-versa and switch sides?
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Surprise_teacher
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 03:56 am |
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Mamazoyd, you've prompted me to do something I rarely do, and that's agree with razenkn. To claim that because you've met some dishonest/unpleasant Mormons then many others must also be dishonest or unpleasant is simply foolish. Razenkn stated I think the best way to judge Governor Romney is by his record, his family and his success. While my opinion of Romney is likely very different than razenkn's, my opinion is based on whether or not I agree with Romney's positions, not what I think of my Mormon friends and colleagues.
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razenkn
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 03:39 am |
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Have you ever had a bad experience with a co-worker, a check-out clerk, an insurance salesman, a nurse, a plumber, a postal clerk? And they smiled at you but secretly they were stabbing you in the back? Do you suppose they were all part of a cult too? Golly Mama, you should probably stay indoors where it's safe.
It is shameful to paint every Mormon with such a hatelful brush. I have a 72 year old aunt that thinks like that, she can't walk by George Bush's picture on TV or Tiger Woods without shuddering and saying something derogatory, but we overlook her ignorance and chalk it up to her generation that didn't know better, are you from that generation? Nobody in my family takes her seriously. She too judges everyone with the same brush and we laugh about it behind her back.
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Mamazoyd
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 02:15 am |
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razenkn wrote: Mamazoyd wrote: Raz, FYI there are many of us out here that believe the Mormon religion to be a cult and not a "Christian" religion as they would have us to believe. You might know some upstanding Mormons but I know some really low-level ones, however clever, that would smile to your face all the while stab you in the back. My point is how do we know which type Romney would be?
I'm gonna add here simply because he's Republican, doesn't mean he's honest.
Mama, whatever respect I have had for you, I think I just lost it. Are you kidding me? You really judge people because of their choice of religion? Guess what, I know some upstanding Catholics but I also know some low level ones. I know some upstanding Baptists, but I also know some low level ones. I know some upstanding Muslims, but I also know some low level ones. "However clever, that would smile to your face all the while stab you in the back." Wow, I would have never taken you for a intrasignet. You definitely don't practice what you preach. Very disappointed in you Mama. I think the best way to judge Governor Romney is by his record, his family and his success. He is the real deal, I don't know how anyone could say otherwise.
Raz, it's been my personal experience whether you like it or not and gee, how did I know you were a Romney supporter. Never did I hold a person's religion against them UNTIL I found out the truth here in the west valley. The unfortunate fact, and they hurt themselves, is that the Mormons I have come across have been lying, manipulative, users only out for themselves. Smile at you and lie to your face. Elsewhere it had been a different story and there was no problem. I've also been told they are the same way in business dealings. What does this say? They are not to be trusted except only to their own church-goers from the sounds of it. After my personal experiences with them, would I believe people who I know who have had business dealings gone wrong with them or someone I don't personally know? There are some very good Christian churches here in the valley who also have a problem with them claiming to be Christian. They are a cult.
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razenkn
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 01:42 am |
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Sometimes Rational wrote...
I think it's interesting that you chose to call a white church "White supremacist". UMMM.....If you'd take the time to quote me correctly, you will not find that I wrote what you just said I wrote...I was extending the logic of RAZ and you missed the point. It was RAZ who initially pronounced Obama a separatist because he attends a 'black' church...So, if RAZ is consistant about that point, RAZ must also believe whites who attend a white churce are separatists as well.
I have requested you not reply to my posts or use my name in your posts SR. I made the decision long ago to not reply to your posts and asked that you afford me the same consideration. I do not wish to have my name associated with anything you write. This is exactly the reason why. You misquote me, take my posts out of context and for whatever reason seem to have a vendetta against me. I will not tolerate it. If you do this one more time, I will have no choice but to submit your post to the webmaster and have it removed for personal attack and inaccuracies.
I did not say anything you just posted. You do not have the common sense nor my permission to extend my logic on anything. So please refrain from doing so, or I will have your posts removed.
Last edited on Mon Jan 28th, 2008 01:48 am by razenkn
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razenkn
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 01:31 am |
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Mamazoyd wrote: Raz, FYI there are many of us out here that believe the Mormon religion to be a cult and not a "Christian" religion as they would have us to believe. You might know some upstanding Mormons but I know some really low-level ones, however clever, that would smile to your face all the while stab you in the back. My point is how do we know which type Romney would be?
I'm gonna add here simply because he's Republican, doesn't mean he's honest.
Mama, whatever respect I have had for you, I think I just lost it. Are you kidding me? You really judge people because of their choice of religion? Guess what, I know some upstanding Catholics but I also know some low level ones. I know some upstanding Baptists, but I also know some low level ones. I know some upstanding Muslims, but I also know some low level ones. "However clever, that would smile to your face all the while stab you in the back." Wow, I would have never taken you for a intrasignet. You definitely don't practice what you preach. Very disappointed in you Mama. I think the best way to judge Governor Romney is by his record, his family and his success. He is the real deal, I don't know how anyone could say otherwise.
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Mamazoyd
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 10:36 pm |
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Raz, FYI there are many of us out here that believe the Mormon religion to be a cult and not a "Christian" religion as they would have us to believe. You might know some upstanding Mormons but I know some really low-level ones, however clever, that would smile to your face all the while stab you in the back. My point is how do we know which type Romney would be?
I'm gonna add here simply because he's Republican, doesn't mean he's honest.
Last edited on Mon Jan 28th, 2008 12:48 am by Mamazoyd
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sometimes rational
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 10:28 pm |
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MrsF wrote: sometimes rational wrote: So, RAZ has decided that being proud of his Black heritage and roots and attending a church which supports that same pride makes Obama a separatist. Very interesting. So then if RAZ attends a church which is essentailly all white, RAZ might be a white supremacist...Those of you of Irish heritage beware..St. Paddy's day is coming and any expression of Irsh pride will be severely dealt with by RAZ.
First of all, race and church shouldn't be one and the same. Churches should be supportive and welcoming of everyone. If this were a black community center or something like that, it would be different. However, it isn't. It's a group of people who are black activists and Christians and they seem to have blurred the line as to what they are most.
I think it's interesting that you chose to call a white church "White supremacist". UMMM.....If you'd take the time to quote me correctly, you will not find that I wrote what you just said I wrote...I was extending the logic of RAZ and you missed the point. It was RAZ who initially pronounced Obama a separatist because he attends a 'black' church...So, if RAZ is consistant about that point, RAZ must also believe whites who attend a white churce are separatists as well. Are you saying that the black church is "black supremacist"? Nobody here said they think that this particular church is thinking their race is supreme. However, you throw supremacy into it when talking about the white church. Interesting.
If Irish people want to have a parade to celebrate their Irish heritage, then so be it. There are heritage organizations everywhere and I have no problem with it at all. My only concern is when it is tied to religion in order to support a particular race of people. Blacks often show unity and black pride thru their church...it's not your place, nor mine, to condemn that.
I think it's interesting that what I basically said about African-American Christians was met with a challenge of history, but when Lucifer's Landlord basically said the same thing as I did, nobody challenged him.
Last edited on Sun Jan 27th, 2008 10:30 pm by
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Surprise_teacher
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 10:26 pm |
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BB35, if you are truly trying to imply that Obama is Muslim, then you need to do some more research on both the person and the religion. Even though I accept Obama's statements and actions that he is not Muslim, your stating that all Muslims follow Farrakhan is ridiculous. The large majority of Muslims live in other countries, and have likely never heard of Farrakhan. Think about it. GWBush is apparently Christian. Do all Christians throughout the world see him as their one true leader?
I'm troubled by your uninformed prejudices. I'd much rather see any candidate from the party I oppose become president than a person with your views.
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razenkn
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 10:05 pm |
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She probably got her information the same place you did Higher. Mormon cults? Oh come on. Just look at his life, his family, his record. I know a lot of Mormon families that live right here in Surprise and all of them are upstanding and productive citizens. If it means you are in a cult to not smoke, not drink, not do drugs, create a loving family, be a good father, great work ethics, give back to your community including the world wide community by sacrificing a year of your life to do a mission, hey, sign me up for that one. Sounds like a good gig to me.
Don't misunderstand, I don't agree with BB either, but that one was so far over the edge, I couldn't be bothered. However, I've been waiting for the cult remark to come out, it was just a matter of time.
How about folks get back to the real issue here, which is what have the candidates done in their career and what have they achieved that they can bring that experience into the Oval office without shame.
And before I get blasted for saying that, yes I did question Obama's church, but it was not the religion aspect I questioned, it is the philosophy of separatism I am concerned about. It's not a race thing, there are white separatists as well. OK?
Last edited on Sun Jan 27th, 2008 10:06 pm by razenkn
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MrsF
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 10:05 pm |
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sometimes rational wrote: So, RAZ has decided that being proud of his Black heritage and roots and attending a church which supports that same pride makes Obama a separatist. Very interesting. So then if RAZ attends a church which is essentailly all white, RAZ might be a white supremacist...Those of you of Irish heritage beware..St. Paddy's day is coming and any expression of Irsh pride will be severely dealt with by RAZ.
First of all, race and church shouldn't be one and the same. Churches should be supportive and welcoming of everyone. If this were a black community center or something like that, it would be different. However, it isn't. It's a group of people who are black activists and Christians and they seem to have blurred the line as to what they are most.
I think it's interesting that you chose to call a white church "White supremacist". Are you saying that the black church is "black supremacist"? Nobody here said they think that this particular church is thinking their race is supreme. However, you throw supremacy into it when talking about the white church. Interesting.
If Irish people want to have a parade to celebrate their Irish heritage, then so be it. There are heritage organizations everywhere and I have no problem with it at all. My only concern is when it is tied to religion in order to support a particular race of people.
I think it's interesting that what I basically said about African-American Christians was met with a challenge of history, but when Lucifer's Landlord basically said the same thing as I did, nobody challenged him.
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HigherEd
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 08:33 pm |
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BB where do you get your information? If you have watched any of the debates Senator Obama has been asked several times directly if he is a Muslim or Christian and he has stated everytime he is a Christian. Therefore by your logic if he is a Muslim he has lied.
I for one would rather Senator Obama or Senator Clinton(the witch) as you call her be President than a doddering old fool like McCain(remeber Reagan and his fiascos caused by his Alzheimers) Or Mormon puppet Romney. If you are worried about Muslim influence You should be more worried about Mormon influence. In spite of what Mormons are ttrying to convince the American people they are NOT Christians they are a cult that believes in a Jesus totally different from the rest of the world. They are just putting a new spin on their religion to help Romney get elected God help us all!
If you truly believe that Senator Obama is a puppet for the Nation of Islam and Louis Farakan please cite your sources so readers can jusge for themselves.
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BB35
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 07:36 pm |
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If Obama gets elected, the US will be run by Louis Farrakhan (as a Muzzie, Obama is a follower). If this happens, the Jews better leave the country... Of course if the Witch gets elected, the the rest of us better leave the country...
Obama was born a Muzzie and he cannot change, he can lie (for the good of Islam).
Ladies better get fitted for veils. One thing for sure, the Muzzies know how to handle teenagers.
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sometimes rational
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 05:55 pm |
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| So, RAZ has decided that being proud of his Black heritage and roots and attending a church which supports that same pride makes Obama a separatist. Very interesting. So then if RAZ attends a church which is essentailly all white, RAZ might be a white supremacist...Those of you of Irish heritage beware..St. Paddy's day is coming and any expression of Irsh pride will be severely dealt with by RAZ. Last edited on Sun Jan 27th, 2008 05:56 pm by
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razenkn
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 12:38 am |
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Let me come at this from a different angle.
Is my issue about religion - NO. I don't care what religion he or anyone else is. Religion has nothing to do with anything in this election as far as I'm concerned.
Is my issue about being a Separatist? YES. Is this a religion, NO.
Being a Separatist is bad for our country, and is especially bad for the blacks in our country. It sets civil rights back 50 years.
If Obama doesn't buy into that philosophy, then fine. If he does, it's a huge issue in this country. I've not heard him speak to that particular issue, so I remain hopeful. He just creamed Hillary in SC, no surprise. I think he will do great as long as the Separatist issue doesn't come back to bite him. He needs to address it clearly and be able to put it to rest.
Last edited on Sun Jan 27th, 2008 12:39 am by razenkn
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sometimes rational
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 11:01 pm |
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max22 wrote: catholic mom...could you explain to raz what is going on...it seems that my words are falling on deaf ears...
someone explain to raz that just because they say they are "commited to Africa" doesn't mean that they are against America...
Now, having said all that, I don't particularly hold this against Obama, but I do find the separatist belief system to be very disturbing and if he ackonwledges it or practices this portion of their vision, then I do I have a problem with that.
and I guess someone also needs to explain to raz what the meaning of a contradiction is...
So, in RAZ's world, those of irish heritage "commited' to assuring a safe and prosperous ireland, and those of jewish faith commited to a safe prosperous Israel must be anti-American..this is because RAZ doesn't and sadly, cannot understand that humans are complex..we are not just this or that to the exclusion of everything else...we are not righhanded to the exclusion of being short, we are not short to the exlusion of being Democrats, and we are not Democrats to the exclusion of being good Americans...and, people are NOT proud of their Black heriage to the exclusion of being good citizens.
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sometimes rational
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 10:54 pm |
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razenkn wrote: No spin here Max. Just stating the facts. If there is a "Non-Negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA" then how can there be 'COMMITMENT TO AMERICA"? Mrs F said it quite well, if you change the word black to white each time it's written, then we would have an all out asault upon this church and you know it.
About Us
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.
The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:
- A congregation committed to ADORATION.
- A congregation preaching SALVATION.
- A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
- A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
- A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
- A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
- A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
- A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
- A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
- A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.
I have studied this website and your thoughts for days...well, hours, OK, minutes, but my comment is:
so what! who cares! OK, that's two comments..but what if he were agnostic or otherwise not church-connected...what difference does it make ? what difference does it make that Romney is Mormon...people: it's 2008 now, not 1908...time to get past religion and racial pride as issues. The market is crashing, people are loosing their homes and their jobs and too many of you are worried about what Obama's church is about and whether or not it's offensive to whites.
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LucifersLandlord
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 08:28 pm |
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I believe this is more of a question of faith then support for another continent. Africa's political climate is to vast to even contemplate being worshiped or supported by 1 church in America. There are probably more than 1000 different religions and tribal beliefs in Africa. The commitment to me would be "committed to Africa" as their heritage and to have it lost. Unfortunately this is a double standard since most slaves brought to America were converts to Christianity and they are not truly embracing their heritage by worshiping Christ.
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cindisue_g
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 07:17 pm |
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CatholicMom, I think there is a difference in being committed to a religion (the pope, which can be from any country) and being committed to another continent . I think if we are going to continue to succeed being the best country there is, we have to be one with our commitments to our country. We can not divide ourselves between 1 continent or another. We all live in the United States, thus we are all Americans (whether you wish to be called African-Americans, French-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Norwegian-Americans, etc.) and should be proud of our country and we should all be committed to the good old USA.
The person I vote for will have to be 100% committed to the United States of America, I'll settle for nothing less.
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MrsF
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 06:57 pm |
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I think it's interesting that people want to say that just because of my statements I must be either upset by Barack Obama's candidacy or the "idea that Africans have taken Christianity" or whatever the comment was made.
Let me make one thing clear...I have no opinion of Barack Obama one way or another. I couldn't tell you anything about him. I haven't been watching the debates and don't know or care what his philosophy is. He will not get my vote so I don't really care what he has to say. I was merely commenting on his church's website. I am not even upset that "black people" are Christians. Personally, I would love to see the whole world be saved. Christianity may have been in Africa for a long time, but I have the feeling that the tribes that slaves were coming from were not Christians.
I am merely commenting on the racist angle of this church. How do I know this to be true? Because as I have said before, if their pledge were replaced with "European", these same people who defend their views would be up in arms at the blatant racism that a "White" church would be doing. See, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't think it's right either way, but you won't catch a liberal democrat saying that. I'm just tired of double standards. I would really love to see a color-blind society and I don't think that this church's approach is the way to get there.
Did you see the video footage from this church? I didn't see a single Caucasian in there. If they aren't racist, they sure don't promote variety or inclusion.
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CatholicMom
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 06:55 pm |
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Africa isn't a country, Raz
Pledging a commitment to Africa is not pledging allegiance to another political government. They are not following any country's leader, or dictator, or despot, govt. faction, or whatever. They are committed to the people of Africa.
One can be a fully committed American and still commit to something or someone else. Millions of Americans are alligned with a Bavarian guy who lives in Rome.  Does that make us less American?
Last edited on Sat Jan 26th, 2008 07:02 pm by CatholicMom
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max22
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 06:53 pm |
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catholic mom...could you explain to raz what is going on...it seems that my words are falling on deaf ears...
someone explain to raz that just because they say they are "commited to Africa" doesn't mean that they are against America...
Now, having said all that, I don't particularly hold this against Obama, but I do find the separatist belief system to be very disturbing and if he ackonwledges it or practices this portion of their vision, then I do I have a problem with that.
and I guess someone also needs to explain to raz what the meaning of a contradiction is...
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razenkn
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 05:13 pm |
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max22 wrote: again...where does it say that they are not committed to America...?
You are making things up yet again...assuming that they are against America...a well known republican habit...
Where does all that anger come from? Can't we have a debate on here with out reducing it to insults and false statements.
Nobody "made up" anything, please pay attention to what I write before attacking. I said and I will repeat it...If they demand in their vision they must be COMMITED to Africa, then how can you be COMMITED to AMERICA? And I still have to ask, if that were a white church and you substituted the word white where they have black, the ACLU would be organizing a million man march against them. Why is it ok for them to be separatist?
I personally believe this type of thinking sets us back 50 years. I see nothing wrong with honoring your race and traditions, and addressing their particular issues, but by swearing them to COMMIT to another country, is in my opinion fundamentally wrong. They don't live in Africa, they live in America. They are not Africans (the majority born here), they are Americans.
Now, having said all that, I don't particularly hold this against Obama, but I do find the separatist belief system to be very disturbing and if he ackonwledges it or practices this portion of their vision, then I do I have a problem with that.
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CatholicMom
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 04:09 pm |
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MrsF wrote: I think any church that focuses on a particular race is racist. We have Polish Churches, we have Korean churches, why can't we have African churches? Obama's father is an African - not because he's black, but because he's really from there. Is there something wrong with honoring one's culture, heritage, and family roots? I don't see how Christianity and this church's philosophy can go hand in hand. HALF of Africa is Christian. Maybe that surprises you?
Why are people whose parents are mixed race still considered "black" if only one parent is?
I don't think you can understand this unless you have a parent from a different country. You can be fully American, and fully (fill in the blank). Just like Jesus can be fully human and fully God at the same time
Also, African ancestry has little to do with Christianity. African-Americans didn't become Christian until they came to the United States.
WOW! Africa accounts for 20% of today's Christians. It's amazing to me that you credit the US for converting them, when Christianity has been present, and quite prominent, for 2000 years. African was the second continent to receive Christianity - it all started with the flight to Egypt when Jesus was an infant. The great St. Augustine was African (Algerian). His mother, St. Monica, was black. Maybe you're just not comfortable with a black man proclaiming your religion or wishing to become president? CM
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max22
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 03:57 pm |
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again...where does it say that they are not committed to America...?
You are making things up yet again...assuming that they are against America...a well known republican habit...
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razenkn
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 03:24 pm |
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No spin here Max. Just stating the facts. If there is a "Non-Negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA" then how can there be 'COMMITMENT TO AMERICA"? Mrs F said it quite well, if you change the word black to white each time it's written, then we would have an all out asault upon this church and you know it.
About Us
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.
The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:
- A congregation committed to ADORATION.
- A congregation preaching SALVATION.
- A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
- A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
- A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
- A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
- A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
- A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
- A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
- A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.
Last edited on Sat Jan 26th, 2008 03:26 pm by razenkn
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max22
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 02:34 pm |
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razenkn wrote: Well, it really depends upon what portion of the website you are looking at. This is another look at the same church website you presented and sorry, I see a devotion to Africa, nothing about being loyal and dedicated or loving towards America. Did I just miss it?
http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
yes you did miss it...look again...
the website doesn't say anything about not being loyal or not being dedicated to the United States.
The problem is this...the republicans always misinterperet what is actually being said. Republicans always take things the wrong way and spin it.
MsF...while their mission statement states that they will not apologize for their "african roots"...please show me where in that statement does it say that they do not accept white people into their church. While they do focus on blacks, please tell me what you think it means when they say "As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family" If you ask me, all god's family is everyone, whatever color they happen to be...
and this right here is pretty clear...
"W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the
color line
. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ."
Doesn't sound racist to me...
and actually, missionaries from Europe brought Christianity to Africa in the fifteenth century.
http://www.africanchristianity.org/
Again...I think this is just another non-issue that the republicans are trying to create because they are "afraid" of Barrack Obama...
Last edited on Sat Jan 26th, 2008 02:41 pm by max22
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clarz007
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 02:30 pm |
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| Hey Cotton---will you fix the typo please!?? "REAL" the "real"...don't you mean "Will the real"?? Sorry-that stuff bugs me.
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MrsF
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 12:04 pm |
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I think any church that focuses on a particular race is racist. Their activism that focuses only on a certain color of people seems rather unChristian to me. For if one sees injustice anywhere, shouldn't a Christian stand up against it? Why wait for it to only be about a certain group of people?
Yet it seems African-Americans are given a pass for their racism. As if it is justified by their past. I don't accept that. If racism is wrong, it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere and that is where I stand. I don't see how Christianity and this church's philosophy can go hand in hand.
Imagine if a church were to only focus on furthering Caucasians. Imagine if they were only outraged when things happened to people of European ancestry or when things only happened in Europe. Imagine an entire congregation that while preaching Christianity, it also preached a blatant agenda of furthering their own people. Oh, I guess we don't have to imagine it. It sounds like Trinity is that very church. But imagine the outcry you would see about the church I described. The media and local citizens would be outraged. It would probably make national news.
Folks, we live in a multicultural society. Nowadays, it's actually getting pretty difficult to pledge allegiance to a particular ancestry. There are people of mixed race all around. How can you have "African pride" and cling to those roots when your mother or father may be Caucasian or Hispanic. Are you still proud of that heritage? Why are people whose parents are mixed race still considered "black" if only one parent is?
Also, African ancestry has little to do with Christianity. African-Americans didn't become Christian until they came to the United States. So claiming any connection to heritage and religion in this case is a bit of a stretch, IMO. Christianity is not an African cultural thing the same way that Buddhism is a Chinese cultural thing or Judaism is a Hebrew thing.
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razenkn
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 05:12 am |
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Well, it really depends upon what portion of the website you are looking at. This is another look at the same church website you presented and sorry, I see a devotion to Africa, nothing about being loyal and dedicated or loving towards America. Did I just miss it?
http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
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max22
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 03:15 am |
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You know how it is sr...
First they try to smear him by saying he is a muslim, taught in a madrassa, and now they complain because he belongs to a church that is not afraid to be black.
After researching their site I found this...
Mission Statement: What Trinity Is About
Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!
We are called out to be "a chosen people" that pays no attention to socio-economic or educational backgrounds. We are made up of the highly educated and the uneducated. Our congregation is a combination of the haves and the have-nots; the economically disadvantaged, the under-class, the unemployed and the employable.
The fortunate who are among us combine forces with the less fortunate to become agents of change for God who is not pleased with America’s economic mal-distribution!
W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ.
that does not sound racist to me...nowhere in their mission statement does it say that whites or any other race for that matter cannot attend their church.
And anyone with an eduaction can tell by reading what they say about Africa is they they are staying true to their heritage, nowhere did I see on that site that they put Africa before the United States...that's just more of the right wing smear machine...especially since what cottonwoodzonie stated was said first by non other then Hannity himself...more Faux sNews drivel...
Last edited on Sat Jan 26th, 2008 03:16 am by max22
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sometimes rational
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 01:14 am |
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CottonwoodZonie wrote: Regardless of what Barack Hussein Obama's positions are regarding, healthcare, immigration and defense you need to g0 to the Trinity United Church of Christ 's website. Notice that they pledge allegiance to Africa and nowhere is America mentioned.
Read their ten points and ask yourself this, if everywhere the term "black" or "African" was present and it was replaced by the term "white", and this was released by a interracial church . . .What would be the chances that they would be called racist? Do you think a white candidate attending such a theoretical church would be branded a racist?
Supposedly their membership is restricted to those of black ancestry, I wouldn't know . . The first time I visited their website "membership" was the only link that was inoperable. The last time I visited the membership link was removed.
While his middle name "Hussein" is bothersome, it is the religious beliefs of his congregation that scares me more. I do not trust him, not for the color of his skin but for the color of his heart! Go . . . read everything on this church, and remember, Barack Hussein Obama stands behind each and every principal and mission.
Wait: did you say you're troubled by his middle name? So you think he got a cell call while in his mom's womb--"Hey, this is your daddy, you need to pick a middle name"...did it occur to you Obamaba was not consulted about his name? It occurs to me your post is 100% negative...is there nobdy you like? Is there a reason, based on what Obama is advocating for America, that you don't like him? Thus far, the only reasons you've provided pertains | | |